Airline EBA time again

[jetblues]

It's that time again, and the crews of QF and DJ start chatting about what they hope for in the new EBA.

What are your expecations ? Are you looking for lifestlye or dollars ?

[cool&thegang]

Either will do!!

However,we are off to a bad start with our old PWC,who achieved zilch last time,SOMEHOW being re-elected.

Let's hope they have everyones interests at heart this time and are prepared to hang in there for what's fair eg OVERTIME!

Interesting times ahead.

Gnadensqueezer,Karunt,Quieer and co........ don't bother,you're getting very repetetive and boring... Go visit "kiddyfiddla.com" instead,i'm sure you old tossers know where to find it.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

A vaseline allowance might come in handy.

[Kaptin M]

Don't joke about it TCoB, at the last "contract" (and I use the word very loosely, as these contracts are really 1-way streets), the Irish contractor through whom I'm employed offered me some KY, foc!!

But since then several more pilots have walked, or not re-signed.

There ARE lots of jobs out there, and some employers (eg SQ, Air DO) are now starting to realise that pilots will walk, and that the pilot shortage is going to become even more acute as the Baby Boomers hit the wall, and other new airlines (in China and the Middle East) sprout up, and soak up any available pilots.
One of the guys who left here has had 3 jobs in about 12 months, on B767, B737NG, and now A320.

For info, Air Do is offering 737 drivers >USD10k + +, with 10 days "Off" per month, and Business Class (the highest available back to Oz) for you and family.

[sprucegoose]

It suprises me how the EBA negotiations don't begin until about three months prior to expiry of the current EBA. It takes some very short sighted individuals to think THAT will be enough time especially considering last time.....

[Iakklat]

[The Enema Bandit]

Another intelligent post from Iakklat.

[Gnadenburg]

Cool&Gang

Don't be so simple and sensitive. Your being shafted and it hurts.

A professional pilot with any degree of market wisdom, has no joy in seeing VB and Jetstar pilots wallowing in sub standard conditions of service.

It would be pleasing to see a significant improvement in the EBA's of VB, J* and to an extent, QF.

The two obvious positives for myself and other pilots abroad is:

1- It drys up supply to our markets. There has been an avalanche of Virgin Blue pilot applications abroad. If VB pilots were not struggling financially en mass, the attempted mini exodus would cease.

2- Well paid Australian pilots at home makes for well paid foreign basings. Although pilot groups of foreign airlines vigorously push QF as the benchmark, I am sure mangement asks "but look at what Virgin pilots work for".

So good luck in your EBA's. Self destructive to wish otherwise.

Your nervous reference to child pornograpy distasteful too!

[lame1]

QF LAMES are about to kick off EB talks as well,i think its time we all get together gentlemen and women for the common cause.

[jetblues]

Sadly, I suspect that as long as there is a long line of "qualified" applicants knocking on the recruitment door we can expect very little improvement in the short term.

Lets face it what does it really cost the airline to place you on line given you arrive "type-rated" at NO expense to the airline. Line training the newbies still fills two seats on a scheduled flight, with a minor loading for the Training Captain.

As mentioned it will probably come down to the great economic supply vs demand argument. Yes low cost airlines are growing everywhere in the world. They predominantly provide high frequency point to point services with B737/A320 sized fleets. I suspect this will mean more pilots flying more jets - GOOD news. So down the track things should improve for us, however right now - yulp - who knows.

Pureists would suggest that we all work hard and our airlines are profitable. Our collective managements are filling their boots with all number of payments and bonuses - so why should'nt we ?

Yes there are a large number of active applications being followed up in Asia etc BUT at present very few bums have moved abroad. Management can afford to sit and see.

So where do the negotiations head, not real sure and not holding my breathe. What is certain is that we must all stick together or fear getting shafted yet again.

Enough.....

[Sunfish]

If you want to win this one, you need to understand that the battle isn't going to be fought in the courts or at the airport. Its going to be fought in Public Arena and what you will be fighting for is to get PUBLIC OPINION on your side. If you can't won't or don't do that then you will eventually lose.

IMHO, Hawke was able to lend Government support to Abeles and Co. because the public perception of the pilots at the time was something like this: They were a bunch of prima donnas or spoiled brats who earned way too much money anyway, lived luxury lifestyles, worked short hours and tax dodged through their country properties. These rich little a$rseholes were holding the entire country to ransom, destroying Australia's tourist industry, paralysing the economy, stopping dying grandparents from seeing their grandchildren one more time, and generally being warts on the bum of progress.

The general public then sat back and watched a LABOR Government use the MILITARY to destroy a UNION. In other words, if you want the Government to stay out of it, you are going to have to convince the general public that they should be supporting you and not the airline management.


So if you want to take on Qantas, I'd start right now to develop your communications strategy and the message you want to send because I guess Mr. Dixon is already mentally rehearsing what he is going to say to Alan Jones and similar commentators.

If it were me, my theme would be to attack the Qantas brand big time, on the basis that it was losing its "Australianess". The public has a very high perception that Qantas is OUR airline. It is an object of national pride and we would like it keep it that way.

Over to you boys and girls. Good luck.

P.S. My theme would be based on the idea that evil overseas interests were trying to steal Qantas from Australia.

Stealing the dreams of kids who want to be Qantas pilots or flight attendants, or engineers.

Stealing Qantas\'s safety record which was built by Australian pilots and engineers.

Stealing a symbol of Australias pride.

In other words, Qantas is not going to be Australia\'s airline if it is populated by pom flight attendants out of London and god knows who out of Peking, aircraft maintained by the lowest tenderers from Haeco or whatever, piloted by people who can barely speak engrish.

You want the public to remember this whenever Qantas runs those "I still call Australia home" ads.

Send that message succesfully and it will hit market share - and of course since marketers are running Qantas these days, they will give in.

Please now bag me for giving worthless free advice.

[jetblues]

Sunfish, as the Minister for Qantas (or should that be Tansport ? )Mr John A....... has been re-elected for another term what does QF have to fear !

[captainrats]

Sunfish
Excellent ,sound advice.A similar approach has been suggested on the LHR base thread in the Cabin crew forum.You are one of the few who is not only critical but is also prepared to offer some constructive positive alternatives.If you don`t mind I would like to send your advice to some of the unions who are now undertaking EBA negotiations with RATTY and his mob.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.Please PM me if you wish

[bonvol]

Yep, sound advice from Sunfish but the COM (not all of them) who run AIPA have been appraised of this approach already. The result is a predictable zero. Not invented here syndrome and all that.

We should have briefed a PR company to put together a campaign to lift our public perception some time ago. The teachers did it and were successful in getting onside public opinion. Mention teachers or nurses to the average joe blow and they (mostly) nod respectfully.

Mention you are a Qantas pilot and the public perception is pretty much same as Sunfish suggests once you scratch the surface.

"oh dont the computers do it all?"
"It must be great having all that time to go sailing/golfing etc"
"Is it true what they say about pilots?"
"what do you do just sitting there all the time?"
"I heard the bump in the jumbo is so you have room to sit on your wallet?"
"you have such a good job flying all over the world for free"

and they go on.

They trust us to deliver them in one piece but still think we are a bunch of overpaid prima donnas and would have absolutely no support for us in a dispute.

We havent had a fatality in over 50 years. People take it as a given that if you get on Qantas you get there and this is just one of many angles a good PR Co could use. Sunfish has indicated others. Yeah I know about BKK. No one killed though and the public wouldn't remember it anyhow.

Nevertheless the allocation of some resources is long overdue in the PR area, for the good of all professional pilots.

[rescue 1]

Yeah I know about BKK. No one killed though and the public wouldn't remember it anyhow.

Mr Dickson doesn't want the public to remember either - so doubt he will bring that one up.

Get a good Spin doctor, and start the treatment early. Isn't that what the professionals say?

[smokestak]

That, and find some committed individuals to negotiate on your behalf.

Sure as hell didn't happen last time for DJ.

Not surprising really when AFAP upper echelon stand around peeing in the pockets of DJ flt ops.

I'm afraid the "union" (read as piss weak organisation) has alot of work to do to regain the confidence of the pilot body.

And before everyone starts bagging me for this post, I refer to the recommendation to sign the first draft of the EB which offered nothing for the pilot body. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[jetblues]

Hit the nail on the head there smokestak. The "pilots" pay the union a sizeable piece of cash each month - would be nice to see them serve us with renewed vigour.

Who is the union serving in the EBA negotiations, the pilots (paid members) or the airline management ?

Crikey smokestak you have opened a can of worms there !

[bigfella5]

As much as I shake my head at what Sunfish blurts out 8 or 9 times out of ten....every now and again he comes out with some real pearls.
His comments in regards to Aopa getting it's act together and what the employees of "Q" need to do to get some appreciable results in regards to political pull in the former and retaining/improving workplace conditions for the latter are spot on.
It'd be nice to know that for future as well as current employees of Qantas, somebody is really in there actually resisting quite strongly what Dixon and co are attempting to achieve with Qantas.
Unionism and well thought out industial action are the only things that are going to mprove the lot of ALL employees of Qantas.

Quick question.......Why isn't the TWU active in this scrap?

[jetblues]

What are the latest whispers ?

[Capt Basil Brush]

Gnadenburg,

Can you tell us what the Annual Base Salary of a QF 737 Capt is, assuming no overtime is flown, and excluding any other allowances.
Also, what is the overtime hourly rate?

Thanks.

BB.

[jetblues]

BB have seen the following ;

QF B737 Capt base is $151,532.95

If the QF 737 pilot has 75 hrs stick per month and takes 6 weeks annual leave he/she grosses $199,748.95 with an hourly overtime rate of $229.60 for hours in excess of the 55 per bid period.

[schnauzer]

Sunfish, for the first time in history, you and I agree. Round of applause!:ok:

Smokestak, we have the same trouble with QF and AIPA but for different reasons. The heirachy within AIPA are inextricably linked with QF managements. Basically, they are in their pockets, awaiting their own management position. This wholly undermines the entire process, and it's very difficult not to be cynical about it all. Don't believe me?

For those who aren't aware, the current CP and DCP of QF are former AIPA Presidents. Whilst there is plenty of respect for the current CP, the same cannot be said of the DCP. His "industrial practices" are rumoured to be shonky at best. We'll leave it at that, but he is the chief QF negotiator. Woe betide us.

Basil, a QF 737 Capt doen't earn overtime - it's a part of the EBA. He will simply be paid an hourly rate for the flying completed. That said, he can expect to earn somewhere between $220 to $235K pa.

[sport]

We havent had a fatality in over 50 years. People take it as a given that if you get on Qantas you get there and this is just one of many angles a good PR Co could use. Sunfish has indicated others. Yeah I know about BKK. No one killed though and the public wouldn't remember it anyhow

So is it like buying a tatts ticket? The longer you go on buying losing tickets the closer you get to buying the winning ticket.

Therefore........ the longer Qantas go without a fatality the closer they get to having one .......... that would definately sell more tickets. NOT!!!!

[QFinsider]

Well guys and gals, I can tell ya from the coal face that unless AIPA and the company part there isn't going to be any heavy hitting...

Maybe the Union President and the CP sharing a commuter flat in Sydney isn't a conspiracy after all. Maybe 3% should be viewed as a pay rise (just kidding ) Maybe as one of the senior visitors remarked during an EBA discussion (to paraphrase)" the cupboard is bare, we face increased compeitition" Very quickly they had to reassure the markets they will make an incresased profit in the next financial year....

It is simply a case of waiting for the baby boomers to move on..There will be skills shortages in so many industries that Kaptin M may well be right. (Think about Costello encouraging the baby boomers to work into their later 60's) When it starts happening pilots and engineers may well become a sought after professional employee who is classified as an asset and not a liability for the company..

Mind you there mightn't be much left:mad:

[Ultralights]

i agree with sunfish, the Union and Memebers have to get/hire a good PR team! because you know Qf already has one!

Qf as a matter of policy will let the Previous EBA expire before beginning serious negotiations on the next, forcing unions to give 14 days notice of action if any and for psycological gains over the members.

[jetblues]

Good to see the QF boys getting fired up, shame we can't say the same for the VB boys.

The Patrick takeover offer sure has taken all the wind out of the sails at the moment. Guess we have til the end of July to have it sorted.

Heard whispers of an offer to QF pilots of 3% then 1.5% for the following two years. This does not even appear to cover inflation surely ?

Have not heard of any serious offers in the VB camp, have you ?

[QFinsider]

The troops are a little tired of the doom and gloom...

The offer from the company was in fact 3% for year 1, reducing to 1.5% in year's 2 and 3...
Laughable. It is beyond money, personally I think the rumeration is sufficient, but I can't believe anybody thinks the company has any respect for it's people..3% doesnt even cover inflation so the real wage keeps falling.
The 3% is based upon offests being given to the company in the form of productivity gains..

Last year it was revealed that in London and LA crew transport was picking up 15mins earlier..Fair enough those two places are a logistal nightmare! But a little investigation revealed the Cabin Crew were paid the extra fifteen minutes, flight crew aren't.
With the amount of metal in and out of LHR and LAX, that over the course of the year is serious $.
The company lambasted anybody questioning the policy, from memory the statement mentioning "it's a trivial issue". It may be trivial but it is an offset and a breach of EBA6.

I'm sure the "negotiators" well intentioned as they are won't put it on the table!
Last year we were to do a home study course on OH and S. In exchange for this flight crew were told we could stay at the Sofitel in Melbourne for an additional 5 years! For the record the Sofitel is the best hotel in the network, and for those on the 767 a home away from home! Funnily enough after about 99% of the company pilots completed the course, we find out that we are being moved to the Hilton anyway as the Sofitel undergoes serious renovation! (of course the company didnt know
:yuk: )

So instead of getting maddder and madder, which is creeping onto most flight decks, we are getting smarter. The army of one is growing.
It is the lack of integrity, both in the case of the slick company and AIPA that will produce a reduction in company performance.

Go crunch the numbers as offered to shareholders in the financial reports from 04. There is bugger all in terms of revenue growth!

As an interesting aside. How do you measure flight crew productivity? To the company it is just a $ exercise(ie: how much do they cost us??)
But a productivity assessment of our industry will show them that the safe efficient conclusion of flights is our target. The absence of accidents makes it incredibly difficult to measure any tangible change. So aren't the aircraft being flown at "optimum levels"
with efficient and appropriate fuel loadings? We are efficient, our productivity is near a maximum...
hmmm

[hotnhigh]

I for one think its BLOODY FANTASTIC that Qf drivers have been offered 3+1.5+1.5
It is even more fantastic that the rest of our hard working mates (ie the one's that really make it happen!) across the group have been offered 3+3+3
Looking good!!!!
and as for the upper echelons. What was that number again... mmmm 66% or something like that.
'Remember it's bloody hard going out there boys and girls. It is only getting worse so be bloody grateful. But don't worry we have the long term vision in hand. These classics will keep on truckin until 2058 and by then the 777's will only be 5 years away.'
And finally, as I read my morning newspaper and munch on my Brett Bix, I am really pleased to see Qld power workers have got an effective 27% rise for their three years. Well Done!

Qf drivers looking good!:ouch:

[Kaptin M]

So why are pilots everywhere, being targeted and screwed?
Our conditions have been degraded - all for the same reasons, "Increased competition, rising prices, the need to remain competitive" - whilst those of the managerial executives have been generously upgraded.
It's not isolated instances, it's worldwide, and one must assume that it is a concerted, united effort as a result of meetings and regular updates on an international basis.

My belief, is the REAL answer to the question lies in the rapidly approaching "Baby Boomer" retirements, that will see current airlines lose swathes of their pilot group over a very short period (good news for the younger guys, as promotions will be at probably the highest rate in memory :ok: ).
New start-ups are likewise, now, depleting existing, experienced surpluses.
These factors are going to - and already are in many countries - FORCING employers to raise the remuneration levels of pilots, to lure them from other employees.

To a certain extent, Australia seems to be in a slightly different position, imo, inasmuch as pilots are willing to trade lifestyle for cash, and seem less reluctant to leave Oz to chase the $$'s.
The majority of those who have, did so because they were forced to. The alternative was to change professions, to maintain their Australian way of life.
Virgin Blue has had an advantage over QF in this area, inasmuch as they have been able to more adequately employ younger (than "Baby Boomer") pilots, and place them in command positions, which should ensure a more stable workforce than most established airlines for VB over the next 1/2 dozen years - unless the lure of $$'s offered elsewhere for experienced crews, causes a schism in the pilot group of Virgin Blue.....a distinct possibility as airlines face the possibilities of having to regularly cancel services due to non-availability of crew.

The treatment dished out to pilots, by managements who envisage big pushes for improved conditions has had an adverse reaction, imo.
Pilots have been left disenchanted with their upper level managers, and not only has goodwill completely dried up, but as a QF poster has indicated, "the army of one continues to grow" - pilots are more and more looking to the highest bidder as their employer.

It seems to me that "Company Loyalty" is not only not valued by management any more, it actively DISCOURAGES and implements programmes aimed at destroying any skerrick that might exist!
The inevitable replacement for a slightly lower paid, loyal workforce, is a higher paid, disgruntled, restless one! The success rate in achieving these, by our "New Age" management, has been OVERWHELMINGLY successful :ok:

[jetblues]

I suspect one of the major reasons there has been a reluctance for the VB Management to engage in a constructive dialogue may lay in their future roles within VB.

With Corrigan etc on the war path for control of this modest, but successful and profitable airline could it be the VB Heads face an uncertain future. If this is true, then yes why would they engage in an effort to negotiate a new EBA. Rather they MAY be sureing up their renumeration in the event of their forced or chosen departure from Bransons Baby.

Kaptin M you are quite correct re the smart pilot recruitment at VB. Whilst there has been lots of noise from those thinking the grass is greener in HKG or the dessert, very few have taken the plunge. It turns out life in OZ is the damned near best in the world not matter how you look at it.

H&H you guys are getting screwed, and you know it. What amazes me is that the QF management continue to increase their renumeration and yet do not envisage the pilots doing the same. 1.5% means with inflation you guys are going backwards. It must be a bitter pill to swallow given the likelihood of a record profit announcement any day !

[FabulousBakerBoy]

You guys are just going round and round in circles, and have been whinging to each other on this forum, instead of organising and getting your message out in to the public arena.

Take all the collective effort wasted here over the years, and put it in an effective campaign that is does not preach to the converted and you might get somewhere.

I am actually on your side, so don't shoot the messenger.

3% ! And you think that is in some way acceptable? Even if 3% was inflation (and it is not despite what the government tells you), a 3% GROSS pay rise means you go backwards.

And faster than you think - why? Compounding Interest is the key to asset portfolio growth and leveraged growth.

And it works just as effectively backwards too - which is where 3+1.5+1.5 will leave you.

The less you accept - the less you will continually be given.

Stop living in fear and grow some balls - you are the ones now in demand. Take advantage of it.

[Direct to]

Who ever said that low cost = low wages.

I would suggest that this is far from the truth. We could look at numerous examples worldwide of examples were this is clearly not the case (Ryanair, eASYJET, Southwest etc. etc.)

Maybe this should be keep in mind for the LCC pilot groups when they set out to renegotiating their agreements. This is especially relevent considering the very large renumeration packages and bonuses that have been distributed to a select few at the top! (Although this practise seems to be consistant across all of the Australian airlines at the moment)

Good luck to all- and remeber to read the fine print and look at the companys motivation for changing certain clauses.:ok:

[QFinsider]

As i have alluded to elsewhere, the renumeration is not the issue. QF have maintained a closed shop in australia for ever...There is nobody in the current group that really understands a strategic threat. The company presumes that they can continue to treat all employees with contempt. It is they who introduced work place agreements under the banner of increased competition, it is they who pull the little clauses out of nowhere that allow them to dishonour agreements. Now we are beginning to see a workforce of people, not threatened so much by unemployment. The company still beleives that the can keep pushing a passive body of pilots around, for they wson't leave after all!
The company may well be right, most will probably complain but ultimately do nothing.
However on the radar is a skills shortage, bought about by the ageing of our population. There is evidence in many industries of difficulty finding skilled tradesman and professionals. this will not be solved by immigration alone. Our demographic is moving in the wrong direction for a growing economy! Couple the retirement of many senior captains in the next 5-10 years with a strategic threat to Qantas. In the very recent past the ranks have been thinned by a few S/O's of a former AN vintage taking a move to J* and J*Asia. Many F/O's have had to fly as S/O becuase the company is sooo short.
Imagine Emirates offering Australian basings for 7**/A3** crew on similar money...There would be a flood from QF. Me included!
With the CP so keen on selling sim time and the availability of sims reduced the system could not cope! Ask a long haul F/O flying as an S/O (please remember the movement of the S/O's was known months in advance)

I may well be wrong, and nobody moves camps. Maybe the guy that pushes buttons, the guy who cant touch anything except in the cruise, the overpaid busdrivers might just start behaving as a commodity, exactly as the bean counters value our services- we are an input, and as a commodity will go to the highest bidder.

In the interim these parasites drive any loyalty from pilots, engineers, cabin crew, baggage handlers etc toward other fields.
It is afterall about respect! something so far out of our business modelling it makes you sick

:ugh:

Oh and by the way Baker Boy- I wholeheartedly agree. The union however presided by a great friend of the CP. A guy with whom in recent times the company said it "could continue working with"
What does that tell you?

[notmyC150v2]

OK so resign from the union and do it yourselves. No I am not being funny you really can do it yourselves.

Hire a consultant (not necessarily spruiking for business, but ...) and every participating pilot could pay a nominal sum (maybe $100) for the consultant to negotiate the deal. The consultant could not accept a deal that the client's did not want and would not have any conflicting relationship with the employer. You would also not have the problem of the consultant having to maintain a "working relationship" with the employer on an ongoing basis, so if they piss off the employer that's just the way it is.

In this modern day of email and perhaps a private MB here on Pprune for participating pilots and staff, communication would be no problem and getting instructions would be relatively quick.

If you are all so unhappy with the union representation, don't tolerate their efforts. If you don't want to expend the time and money in doing it yourselves, you can only blame yourselves for the outcome.

Edited by me coz i can't spell

[jetblues]

Info from todays The Courier Mail, Wed 2Feb 2005 ;

Power workers 27% over 3 years
Teachers 10.8% over 3 years
Public Servants 11.4% over 3 years and 3 mths
Nurses Up to 16.3% over 3 years
Police 10.5% over 3 years

Hmmmm

[ROKAPE]

Could the respective unions of Tech Crew, Cabin Crew and LAME's all act together? These are the 'frontline' people, either dealing directly with the customer or responsible for the $100+ million aircraft and everything in it. These are the people who should be getting the best EBA's. I know the "QF cabin crew are overpaid" argument, however they are a big group in the company and they have to deal face to face with Joe Bloggs, shift work, confined space, pax safety / excretion / abuse / aroma etc. Better to have them on side in an argument with scarface and the mob?? Not meaning to be derogatory to the rest of QF staff but they are secondary support. Baggage, check in (soon to be fully automatic?), middle management, catering etc etc, while their jobs are a cog in the wheel, does a baggage handler really need $50k+? (While a Dash 8 F/O earns $45k)
As previous post's stated, PR is the key, mass complaints to the union or time to ditch the union and start a new one or god forbid... bring in the heavies / solicitors / consultants.
I do not work for QANTAS, but if they go down, we all go down.:uhoh: