Jetstar Pilots to Join AIPA

[quim]

So now that the MOU has been 'ratified', why aren't all of you Jetstar guys and gals coming over to AIPA in droves?

Whats the go?

[Keg]

geez Quim, we've had a few already. Sometimes it takes more than a day or three to get the act together. I think I recall the AIPA newsletter from last Friday showing that a bunch of them had asked for forms. I think about 25 is the number which on my thinking is about 18% of the workforce. Thats not bad for the first week or so.

I can guarantee that I'm not that quick at a lot of stuff. Besides, given that it appears that more than 90% of J* guys voted and only about 50% of QF blokes voted, I'd be disappointed if we're slagging off at the J* guys for 'lack of effort'.

For those that join, welcome to AIPA. It isn't always pretty and it certainly isn't perfect but it mostly works.

[Howard Hughes]

As someone looking in from the outside, I would just like to say "well done guy's/gal's" it's good to see a more united front..

Cheers, HH.
:ok:

[Mr Nightmare]

Does it really matter anymore?

The Howard mob are back in Canberra and this time they control the senate.

By the time Howard and his boys are finished with industrial relations reform union membership will be nothing but a social club.

Better sharpen your negotiating skills boys and girls because when individual contracts start to appear you are going to have to perform.

[spinout]

Does that mean the long serving/suffering boys and girls in the regionals (Sunstate and Eastern) can join too can we can we… hu huhu are we there yet….;)

[bonvol]

Spinout, you just have to get yourself a shiny jet first and have some potential to take mainline jobs and AIPA will be on your doorstep in a flash!

After all, they couldn't give a stuff about Impulse/Jetstar till it looked like it may affect the motherland.

And the apathy continues with the miserable vote turnout from the troops.

[quim]

Well Keg, you and I agree on one thing. That is that it was a simply pathetic effort on behalf of the mainline pilots. 50% voted. And then Robin Holt crows about what a good result it was. I'm embarrassed to be a QF pilot and an AIPA member.

But the real thrust of the thread was that the majority of Jetstar pilots haven't come across to AIPA, because they simply aren't interested. And dear old Robin isnt going to tell you that. Because that would be an admision that the MOU served no real purpose other than to accept new woeful conditions and set a very dangerous precedent.

So I will refer back to a question asked by many at the outset of this debacle. Why have the MOU in place if it doesnt attract the Jetstar pilots to camp under our tree?

[Lodown]

Another person looking in from the outside...

Why the apathy? Because AIPA doesn’t have much of a bargaining position compared to times past. Individual pilot qualifications, experience and performance appear to bring more to the bargaining table than the AIPA group. So it seems that many pilots would rather trust their own individual negotiating abilities, or if that fails, their ability to take their qualifications elsewhere.

Not saying that is good or bad, just the nature of a growing trend these days. Excellent qualifications and performance appear to engender excellent bargaining positions.

[2FarCanard]

Quim your statement that J* pilots are not interested is load of horsesh1t !

I'll give you a timeline of how one pilots attempt to join goes:

1. Firstly wanted to join when first bought out by QANTAS (enough has been said about that)

2. First road trip about MOU (4,5,6 months ago?) Robin Holt wants us to join. Ring up to get some info. "Can't join yet haven't changed the rules".

3. Two months later. Rules changed now can join, ask again for some info ie % salary, etc.... very basic stuff. 3,4,5 weeks later i get an envelope that contains no info but a lot of forms on how to get the money out of my salary.Nice.

4. Since the MOU was signed off i have been waiting for a welcome to the wonderful world of AIPA info pack that everyone at AIPA keeps telling us is on the way.

Meanwhile we are trying to make an informed decision on who should represent us with absolutely no info from one of the two choices.

As one of my colleagues has said " how quickly can they react to our industrial problems if they can't even get an info pack out"."
There are more of us that would join but not all of us want to join blindly like the "18%" that already have.


Quim if you want more of us to join ring up AIPA and get some info sent out to us.

[bonvol]

You Jetstrar blokes would do better for yourselves in the TWU. AIPA is basically irrelevant in Qantas. They stuff up everything, DPA, the 76, accommodation, scope, Bscale 737, Jetstar, Regionals, Jetconnect etc and etc. Thats just a short list. I'd need a full page to list the lot.

They did have one win though...seniority for cadets.That was a win, wasn't it?

2farcanard, your experience of AIPA is as good as it gets. Believe what you see.

[quim]

Canard, it's not horsesh1t, and for the reasons that you have given, you illustrate clearly why youur colleagues dont want to come across. Why would they? In the end, you aren't blind. I'm certain that you have very nicely summed AIPA up already.

Good luck with getting your info, but dont hold your breath.

And BTW, I would be most pleased to see us all, regionals, VB etc standing under the one umbrella. But then reality strikes, and I can see that it just aint gonna happen. Thats why MOU's like this one really stink!

[Horizon_Pilot]

Not sure why these guys haven't given the TWU a go? :(

They were great to us in the past and are doing good things for us at the moment at Crapair.....:ok:

The best part of the TWU for interested pilots' to call, is the Sydney office on, 02 9912 0700 and ask for someone involved in Aviation.... As long as you guys are prepared to put in some effort, the TWU will react swiftly and professionally for its' members....

All the best ;)

[*Lancer*]

The general trend with online forums, is that those with the strongest opinions are the most vocal.

Whether we like it or don't (and we're all much faster to point out the specifics of what we don't like), AIPA remains the largest aviation union in the country, and represents almost completely the Qantas pilot mainline pilot group. This Jetstar issue has highlighted the significant shortfalls of a narrow 'mainline only' approach, and will hopefully lead to wider representation for all, and a greater, balanced influence.

Continuing to segregate pilot groups into the AIPA, IPC, AFAP, and TWU, and actively suggesting pilots make a move to another union is only going to perpetuate the same sort of divisive issues that AIPA has faced over Jetstar.

[Horizon_Pilot]

spinout check p.m.

[bonvol]

These days you want some strength. AIPA has zero. The company treats them with contempt and has done for ages. With such an apathetic membership its no wonder.

All the QF drivers would do far better resigning en masse from AIPA and getting into the TWU. Only trouble is they are too apathetic so will continue to get regularly rogered by management.

Anyone remember all the hoo haa at the SGM last year about the LCC?

Lines in the sand and all that.

What happened...nothing...the company did us like a dinner and all under the watchful eye of AIPA. We ended up with a two bob MOU and half the membership were so concerned about the future that they couldn't even be bothered to vote!

[The Matirx]

Got to agree with Bonvol.

The AIPA Com only wants other pilot bodies within the QF group on board in order to control them.

The company of course would love this too.


Proof of the pudding: AIPA does not look after existing LH pilots with the exception of the very senior, QED why will they look after the regionals / Jet* ect any better ?





"Everything that has a beginning has an end"

[quim]

Well said, bonvol.

Gotta admire AIPA's work on the Captains Carpark, though. They've got their priorities right...!:mad: :yuk: :yuk:

[Agent Mulder]

I am starting to form the opinion that you bonvol, quim and matirx (whatever that is) are all one and the same.

Same prose, same stupidity, same cowardice etc etc.

A tough bloke like you should put your big balls on AIPA COM and inspire the members towards your vision for the future. But maybe you did, didn't like the heat and resigned after one day. Is that you?

Pprune - the cowards forum for schoolkids, has beens, wannabes and no hopers. Unfortunately the few sensible contributors are drowned out by the boofheads.

God help Pilots, because these nutbags won't!!!!

[bonvol]

You sure you weren't Agent Orange in a previous life ?

[The Matirx]

I think I know who Bonvol is, but it is not me.


Slagging us off doesnt help the $hithouse AIPA scoreboard over the last 7yrs or so does it now.

[quim]

Hmmm. Mulder. Still trying to solve mysteries?

Well, I have no idea who the other two are, and for all I know they may be one in the same. But they sure as sh1t arent me. Theres only one quim. Thank God. And I've never been on the Com, and I've never resigned. There, that narrows it down to maybe 2000 pilots for you, doesn't it!

But I would like to know who YOU are Mulder. You talk BIG, but you are here on pprune, hiding behind the same veil. That makes you a very similar animal, although one who is prone to hypocrisy.

Now, we all know why this discussion happens here. Honesty on Qrewroom, will cost you your career if you happen to be 'too honest'.

It just aint worth putting one's neck on the line for guys like you, Mulder. And the other 1000 or so Qantas pilots who are too apathetic to give a toss.

So Mulder? What exactly are YOU doing to help pilots, and what exactly do you see that has been positive from AIPA reecently?

[Agent Mulder]

Quim et.al.,

You ask what I am doing?

Tell me. Do you consider your ranting and raving on this anonymous forum to somehow be helping pilots? All you do, in my opinion, is make us look like a mob a whinging spoilt brats!

You have never offered a solution, in any of your personas, just whinge whinge, woe is me.

Why are you scared of Qrewroom?

You, like many others, want to say whatever you want. The problem I see is that you don't want to be responsible or accountable for what comes out of your mouth.

Your career wouldn't be threatened by writing on Qrewroom, your career might be threatened if you are considered by your peers to be irrational, irresponsible and a liar. These personality traits shouldn't exist in any professional.

Leaders don't hide behind anonymity, they inspire others and lead. Moaning on this website does not inspire others to join in your cause (which to me looks like a sewing club of whingers). That's because you don't have the answers, just the perceived problems.

Unless you are prepared to stand up and be counted by volunteering to change things, you have no credibility.

[Chilli Muscle]

Why would airline pilots who are scratching for a buck want to join AIPA. What exactly are they going to get. Only experience and another job is my guess.

[BUNYA]

What will they get?

Not much guys.

Just industrial representation so that their EBAs may actually give them something that they want.

Just legal assistance so if the worst happens to their operation they might not go to jail.

Just loss of licence insurance so that they have some certainty about being able to pay their bills.

Just some assurance that cost driven managements won't be able to shop around to find other cheap pilots to undercut their careers.

Not much really.

[blueloo]

No more loss of licence through AIPA. It is arranged through an outside company.


Also legal assistance varies. If its a squabble amongst guys within AIPA, AIPA will only supprt the first guy who fronts them.

[bonvol]

And your

assurance that cost driven managements won't be able to shop around to find other cheap pilots to undercut their careers
doesn't stand up to recent history.

You are right...not much really...just about sums AIPA up.

[bigles]

JABAROO

FOR THE JETSTAR PILOT FRATERNITY TO JOIN AIPA WOULD BE INDUSTRIAL SUICIDE,EVERY TIME AIPA HAD ANY INDUSTRIAL ACTION THEY WOULD BE DRAGGED INTO THE FRAY.SHOULD IT COME TO THE INTEREST OF THE JETSTAR PILOTS AND QF PILOTS SELF INTEREST OF QF PILOTS WILL PREVAIL.YOU WOULD BE A MINORITY AND TREATED AS SUCH,SHOULD YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS CONSULT THE PREVIOUS AUSTRALIAN AIRLINE PILOT GROUP.I SEE IT AS PLOY TO GET CONTROL OF JETSTAR PILOTS FOR THE AIPA SELF INTEREST. JETSTAR PILOTS BE WARNED DON'T SURRENDER YOUR POSITION FOR PIE IN THE SKY. :mad:

[radnav]

Seconded bigles

The good folk at Jetstar should think very carefully about this proposal.

Find out just why the AIPA was formed in the first place.

The old Leopards and their spots saying kind of comes to mind.

Cheers.

[Keg]

lol. When did the split happen? About '81-'83 or so? That makes less than 200 leopards. Less than 10% of the QF pilot workforce.

[jakethemuss]

Don't worry Keg,

It's just AFAP stooges representing their members by writing on pprune. If they spent the same amount of time actually looking after the people they take money from they wouldn't be in such a mess.

All Qantas Pilots in the QANTAS PILOTS UNION!

[LetsGoRated]

Spot on bigles!!
An AIPA tie up would only serve to limit opportunities available to Jetstar pilots within a rapidly expanding organization. AIPA knows this all too well and when push comes to shove 10% won’t cut it guys. :ok:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I like the bit in that post about "every time AIPA takes industrial action... blah blah blah.." Since when does AIPA take industrial action?

They didn't on Jitconnict.
They didn't on Jetstar
They haven't for almost 40 years now...

I would like to think they would do it if some of the senior guys interests were threatened like getting outside pilots to fly the A380 etc but having a look at the track record.... I actually have my doubts.

[radnav]

....and ever since "then", the brainwashing and indoctrination of all "newbies" into QF and throughout their career remains the same.

The philosophical "spots" haven't changed. Not a criticism as such its just that the AIPA dances to a different tune, with a different agenda.

The AIPA was set up out of arrogant self interest, turning its back on all other Australian pilots ever since. This Jetstar proposal is just more of the same.

Its so transparent its almost ludicrous.

Gosh even the QF shorthaul crews can't stand the AIPA, but unfortunately they have no choice....Jetstar crews still do so exercise that choice wisely.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Radnav, You are an idi... no, we can't say that these days can we.
Radnav, I disagree with what you just said.

Anyone has a choice these days, including QF shorthaul pilots. Some of them aren't members of any union. One such lad, actually joined AIPA for the duration of his Airbus conversion, must have been something to do with all the Airbus conversion failures from shorthaul ranks, and then promptly resigned again once he passed the course.

He is probably one of the people who are currently threatening legal action over the move of the A330 from shorthaul rostering to longhaul rostering.

That is by-the-by. I am glad that AIPA split from the AFAP all those years ago. It probably saved me from having to leave the country in 89. You can snipe from the sidelines all you like with you ideological BS, but nothing will change that fact.

[lambsie]

When QF offers the A380 to the Jetstar crowd on an eighth of the pay a LHauler would expect, who will AIPA support? A major conflict of interest is imminent.