eagle eye - dress code

[ossie]

On next week's eagle eye exercise the RAF Chopper Aircrew have been ordered to wear Ground Clothing instead of Flying Clothing, loads of guys moaning about it, the Brass don't care - Looking like a cabbage is more important than Flight Safety! Thanks JHC!!!!

Discuss

[timex]

Know what I'd rather be wearing when you're trying to E&E.

Shaun

[FJJP]

Surely there must be a raft of regulations somewhere that specifies the correct clothing to be worn for flying duties - there certainly was in my day [up until a few years ago]. You can't willy-nilly change the regs - after all, flying kit [inc cabbage flying kit] is specifically designed for working aircrew to wear in the aircraft. The chopper back-end is designed to carry non-flying kitted people, so if buttons, etc, get torn off it won't affect the operation of the ac, but might do in the cockpit.

I suggest a Condor, or a call to the big white chief, flight safety [whatever he is now called] is in order - I'd certainly make that call Monday morning if it was me at the receiving end of a lunatic decision like that. What's your unit FSO doing about it?

[Gary Astazu]

Wearing a nomex suit and a green rollneck shirt isn't going to provide any sort of flight safety at all! When the Chinook BBQ starts, fueled by at least 5 tonnes of aviation fuel, how long do you think that a Mk 15 will stop you burning for?

When the nasty men come to ask questions who would you sooner be? Flt Lt Knowitall or Pte Greyman!!

The real question is of insurance! How many times have you seen a colleague climb into an aircraft with unauthorised kit on? If there were to be an accident you can bet that some slimey Govt Lawyer would try to stop your family/loved ones getting any compensation due, just because you were too smart to dress correctly. JHC has given authority for a far more practical dress. Especially now that the SHF are getting to the sharp end a lot more. More importantly the ones left behing are now safeguarded.

FJJP - Things have, as you say changed a bit since you left! Nobody in JHC is changing the regs willy nilly. The regs and the proviso for wearing combat clothing was agreed at Tri-Service level. Way above ossie's pay scale!!!

At the end of the day - "Shut Up and Get On With It"

Bloody Whinging Aircrew.:p

[BEagle]

After the Hercules accident in some Balkan $hithole or other not that long ago where escape from the burning wreckage was impeded for one of the aircrew because he was wearing Clockwork Squaddie 95 instead of approved flying clothing (and he was caught by the belt loop whilst trying to get out of the flight deck window), The Word went round that ONLY approved flying clothing was to be worn by aircrew.....

Has the RAF forgotten such basic lessons so quickly?

Why do you think it takes so long to approve flying clothing? It's not for reasons of sartorial elegance, "Me master race, you dung-eating grunt" or whatever. It's because there's an effing good reason.

Suggest someone send the tw@t who 'ordered' such bolleaux a copy of the Accident Report........

Before someone else nearly dies......

[santiago15]

It was my understanding that flying clothing has to be authorised for each particular aircraft.

Do the RAF guys flying C17s wear US flying suits as UK ones have not been tested/authorised?

[BEagle]

In a word, yes.

[jayteeto]

Be careful you do not get what you ask for here..... Those of you who know me will recall my anal requirement as a sqn boss to wear ONLY authorised flying clothing after my treatment by a 'fatal' board of inquiry. I remember one particular exercise where we had to change in the helicopter into flying kit and change back when we wanted to get out. What a pain in the jacksy!!

[PTT]

Wear a flying suit over the CS95 when going flying. Remove said flying suit on landing.

Not that difficult really :ok:

[timex]

Didn't seem to remember anyone complaining during Telic or other conflicts.

All DPM kit is now authorised by JHC to be worn, and what is the difference if you are in the front or the back, a fire is a fire

[Amateur Aviator]

Anyone seen how well CS95 burns compared with a growbag..................................................... ......?

It's worth a look if you want to scare yourself!

[BEagle]

Excuse the bleeding obvious, but why hasn't someone come up with a growbag in Clockwork Squaddie 95 pattern?

't would seem fairly simple to do?

[SilsoeSid]

BEagle,
(and he was caught by the belt loop whilst trying to get out of the flight deck window)
I don't know if it is still in service, but the 'approved flying combat suit certainly had belt loops in which to loop the 'approved' nylon web belt.
Also the jacket pockets were buttoned which would have the same catching effect, as many a cam net proved!

PTT,
The whole issue of Flt Safety and clothing depends on also having natural fibres as under clothing, so wearing C95 under the suit is probably as dangerous as not wearing it. Although, sadly, the majority do wear C95 under their suit as a matter of course, as they did with lightweight trousers. Its a shame the Army got rid of the OG trousers, pure cotton, but creased easily. Not smart Sgt Major!!

Timex,
"All DPM kit is now authorised by JHC to be worn, and what is the difference if you are in the front or the back, a fire is a fire."

Can you get that in writing? and who from JHC will stand up in court over this?

Amateur Aviator has it exactly. The same effect as when tidying up the ends of a length of para cord!

Gary Astazu,
It's not a matter of how it performs when you are sat in the BBQ as you say, its enough to give you extra time if by then you haven't inhaled the vapour/smoke etc.

From the DuPont (http://www.dupont.com/nomex/) site itself, what is Nomex?

The inherently flame-resistant properties provided by NOMEX® mean that those who rely on it are safe and protected from the hazards they face on the job every day.

Flame resistant, not proof.

This subject was always good for a pre-exercise discussion, as was cam cream when you are sat in a chuffing big whirly shiny loud thing.
Memories of Dartmoor, aircrew sat having a chat, SSM pipes up,
"Oy! you lot keep the noise down we're supposed to be tactical, so shut the fcuk up!"
Immediately followed by...... the ignitors of 4 Lynx sparking up. (couldn't have timed it better.)

Timex;
As for running away from the enemy in an E&E situation.
You've got to survive the crash first!!!
Besides, do you wear flying boots, aircrew/flashy watch. By the Geneva convention you have to divulge your rank, so perhaps Flt Lt etc is a bit of a giveaway!

[Twinact]

Ossie,

Me thinks you are being a little economic with the truth.

You have not been "ordered to wear CS95", you have been given JHC authority to wear it, but can wear what you prefer - subtley different from the spin you put on it. The brass don't care?

From the variety of responses placed here people clearly have their own views on what to wear in an exercise/operational environment.

It going to be wet, cold, Scotland, muddy and in long grass - I know what I'll be wearing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But hey, lets not let the truth get in the way of a good winge.
:p

[Grimweasel]

How sad that we have come to this? Squaddie down the back in Cbt 95 will burn regardless. Front end lot need to worry more about flying the thing than if they will burn on impact. Utter crap if u ask me. You crash at speed in CH47 or C130 you die pretty much straight away. XV193 crew not saved by poxy nomex suit. Mull Of K CH47 lot. Dead. Flying suit or not. They look crap and are a waste of cash. If it was so critical to flight safety then ALL passengers should be issued Nomex too. ???

Wake up and smell..............the burning flesh!

[ZH875]

Excuse the bleeding obvious, but why hasn't someone come up with a growbag in Clockwork Squaddie 95 pattern? Simple, Posing is difficult in a cabbage growbag.

:)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

That's where you are soooooooo wrong. Aircrew, unlike their lardy blunt counterparts, look bl@@dy good in everything they wear:p

Nice to see Grim posting in his usual literary manner:rolleyes:

Beag's I am pretty sure it is undergoing testing as we speak!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Had a call yesterday to tell us that we will be trialling new CS95 flying kit from Jan 05 onwards. The previous attempt 2 years ago was very poor indeed.

HPT

[BEagle]

Hope that HM's winter fashion statement meets your needs!

Presumably there's also going to be a desert version, as you seem to spend more time in the Great Sandtray than you do in the civilised world these days?

[timex]

SS,

look in your various Service Deviations and you will find out who authorised / authorises the wearing of the kit (certainly for Army and Navy)

CS 95 is crap thats why we were wear Jungle lightweights (cotton), or desert cams, plus they are actually cooler in hot climes

Not everyone is a Flt Lt, so any bit of anonimity works. Maybe we should all have the same rank system!!

Buttons a snagging hazard ? try an armoured seat (but would you want that taken out)??

[DuckDodgers]

I think you will all find that the wording from JHC was that 'dispensation has been granted for the wearing of CS95 by aircrew.'

So there is NO dress code for the Ex and the choice is up to ourselves, but i know what i am wearing if it gets a little bit chilly! Snow anyone? for when we are in West Freugh come Thursday/Friday.

[PTT]

Siloesid

I'm well aware of the principle behind the layer system if fire protection of which the nomex suit is a part. I'll be going on EE, and, bearing in mind that it's Scotland in October, I'll be wearing CS95 with long johns underneath and the standard CS95 t-shirt/shirt combination when on the ground, replacing the top half with a roll-neck (and maybe even a Norwegian army shirt) then placing a flying suit over the top when flying.

The whole point of allowing flight with non-protective flying clothing is a part of a risk management strategy allowing assessment of whether aircrew should be able to be more effective on E&E should the need arise or blend in with troops at FOBs etc against the possibility of fire in the aircraft - hence the lack of complaints on TELIC etc (although some provision of desert flying suits to therefore have had the option would have been nice).

Eagle's Eye is intended to be as realistic as possible so, as per ops in the early days of TELIC last year, we are operating from an FOB at, on or close to the border or beyond. The threat from snipers etc in such a situation is real and the idea is to blend in where possible. I know it won't be 100% effective but it's better than sticking out all of the time.
That said, it is an exercise and, as such, safety of crew and aircraft is the primary responsibility of the captain and, as such, I will play by exercise rules and exercise risks when on the ground. However, when we are flying and the risks are real, I will take the appropriate precautions to minimise them by wearing flying clothing. In this exercise no-one is going to die if you take 2 minutes to get changed before going flying, but you might if you don't.
And, should anyone decide that such action is outside the desires of exercise play, it's my aircraft, I'm captain, and I'll do what I need to in order to ensure the safety of the crew and passengers iaw JSP550. So long as I get the job done no-one can have any complaints, can they? :rolleyes:

PTT

[serf]

A flying suit, in my opinion is unsuitable for helicopter crews operating from the field, be it ex or ops.

I presume that you will also all be wearing the issue flying boots, equally unsuitable for field conditions.

By the way, there is snow on the hills already, make your own choice.

[SilsoeSid]

timex;
Buttons a snagging hazard ? try an armoured seat (but would you want that taken out)??
Q1. When was the last time an aircraft on exercise crashed because the pilot was shot/injured and lost control with subsequent findings that an armoured seat would have prevented the incident?

Q2. When was the last time an incident ,reported or not, occured when a button or cuff was caught on a flying control?

So in answer to your question, yes, it's extra weight. However it's a training exercise, so sitting position/comfort/inconveniences and weight issues should be practised.
----------------------------------

PTT;
I'll be wearing CS95 with long johns underneath and the standard CS95 t-shirt/shirt combination when on the ground, replacing the top half with a roll-neck (and maybe even a Norwegian army shirt) then placing a flying suit over the top when flying.
If you were to wear a Norwegian shirt, doesn't the deviation state that when this type of shirt is worn, the buttons are to be replaced with velcro fastenings and a roll neck shirt should be worn underneath because of the plastic zip?
--------------------

As a comment on flight safety, I think it necessary to point out that this is an exercise. Risks of any kind do not need to be taken.

Don't let the red or green mist cloud your judgement when it all gets a bit exciting.

Yes, I do think that this preaching is necessary. Practise doing the job first, then look the part when you do it for real.

[Eagle 270]

Your point Silsoe??

BTW jayteeto, was your last 'green job' a certain key player in a certain Shropshire airbase and have you sold your really nice cottage in the local village? Ill use your user name as a pseudonym.......

Regards, potato head.:p

[SilsoeSid]

Eagle 270;

RTFQ

[Eagle 270]

Silsoe, RTFQd. Q still remains the same.

[jayteeto]

Not called a cottage anymore. Renamed 'The Gratuity Sponge'. I wear T-Shirts under my flying suit now and my leather jacket was provided by the company. Still like the military flying boots and gloves though.
PS, doesn't velcro melt and stick to flesh in a flash fire?

[SilsoeSid]

Eagle270;
I'm not quite sure what needs clarifying.
Armoured seats,
natural fibres,
Buttons,
or Flight Safety

I think what you are after is a repeat of ;
"As a comment on flight safety, I think it necessary to point out that this is an exercise. Risks of any kind do not need to be taken."

jay,
Yes it does, I guess that was also one of the reasons for having to wear a roll neck underneath.

[PTT]

SiloeSid

A Norwegian army shirt has only got buttons on the cuffs. These will be under the flying suit I'll be wearing :)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Sorry if these seems like a stupid question but....... if naval working dress (no4s) can be treated to make it fire retardent then why can't other service clothing that is worn in action (combats, flying suits etc) be treated too?

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks PTT, I think most of us know the configuration of buttons and zips on a Norwegian jumper! :ok:

I believe the deveation instructions about the buttons on said article of clothing, were due to the way the buttons were sewn on, ie normally and not in the flying combats method. :rolleyes:

And just because it will be worn under the flying suit does not make it safe. Thats why natural fibred clothing should be worn under it. ;)

You wouldn't wear a pair of Ron Hills under your flying suit thinking it safe would you?.............would you? :ugh:

[PTT]

SiloeSid

I will be wearing a roll-neck underneath it, as described previously. I'd have to check the SD re the button fastenings (but only if I got really bored!). :zzz:

On the subject of boots, I clean my pro-boots with silicone-based polish and they are legal iaw JHCFOB :ok:

[serf]

SiloeSid

if you wore trainers with the ron hills you would be sorted for the
E & E !!!

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one serf, however they'd better be military issue or you could be done for being a spy ! :suspect: