View Full Version : N-Reg Trust?
We're probably moving the beloved Arrer onto the N-reg at the end of the year, unless circumstances change dramatically.
We've got most things in hand, but haven't yet decided which "trust company" to use. Prices seem to vary significantly - not sure why.
I'd be very grateful for any comments anyone may have, good (or not-so-good, in confidence if need be) on trustees in the UK.
S-Works
8th Oct 2004, 16:57
Tomn Hughston at AFTS at Norwich. He is an American and runs a trust set-up and is doing my Cessna.
Very nice guy.
PM me for a copy of the trust agreement.
vsukpadman
8th Oct 2004, 19:58
Hi
I would recommend AJ at Anglo in the channel Islands..
Great service, and very efficient....
[email protected]
Good luck..if you need any help, gis a shout, as Ive just done that very thing with an SR22 :-)
Bill Padley
London
Whats an Arrer? Is it a Cherokee Arrow?
If so I think you need to consider of all the hidden "extras" that may be involved.
I have a Warrior which is on the N reg , but only because thats the way it came from Germany.
The Trust is renewable every year (compared with a 3 year C of A) and you need to take into account the following extras:
1. 2 licences, for flying abroad, and therefore;
2. 2 medicals (US and UK). (just renewed £200)...
3. Trust renewable every year (£400+ VAT with some people) compared to C of A fees...
4. Fees for a FAA inspector EVERY annual (£250 usually)
5. £150+ for FAA Radio Licence at each change of ownership.
If you sell the market may be very limited because of the Reg. and the costs of changing back to the UK register are immense, if not impossible (Export C of A etc. etc.). I have been quoted over £5000...sometimes a lot more.
There are other factors ,I know, but with some of the new EASA regulations (Notice 75 etc) is it still worthwhile?..
I wish I was on the UK register but the cost of changing is horrifying.
You do need to be very careful about this with such a simple type.
UV
Chilli Monster
8th Oct 2004, 23:53
1. 2 licences, for flying abroad, and therefore;
2. 2 medicals (US and UK). (just renewed £200)...
3. Trust renewable every year (£400+ VAT with some people) compared to C of A fees...
4. Fees for a FAA inspector EVERY annual (£250 usually)
5. £150+ for FAA Radio Licence at each change of ownership.
1. Why 2 licences? N reg plus FAA licence - no UK licence required
2. Same as above
3. Fair cop, but................
4. Have you paid for a UK annual recently? Also there's the saving that comes with not requiring 50 hour checks
5. What someone else has to pay isn't really your problem is it - the important thing is you only have to pay it the once (or once every 10 years anyway)
The biggy though - access to airways and IFR here and in Europe due to a more accessible IR. Let's be honest - that's worth paying for and the main reason why Keef, and others, go 'N' reg.
BEagle
9th Oct 2004, 07:38
How will the looming Mode S farce affect US-registered aircraft in the UK?
Chilli Monster
9th Oct 2004, 08:17
As Mode 'S' is an airspace, not an aircraft requirement then it will affect everyone, no matter the state of registry. However, it may not be looming (for some) as early as we all thought. Read this link (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=9337&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) - especially the comments about half way through.
GroundGirl
9th Oct 2004, 15:01
I deal with a number of trust companies on a daily basis and would thoroughly reccoment Peter Leventhal of Avcorp Registrations Limited.
Their website is here (http://www.avcorpregistrations.com/)
The FAQ page is very useful. Peter is a great guy and very helpful
GG:ok:
Avcorp are about the most expensive around. Can anyone suggest why one should pay double what somebody else charges?
englishal
9th Oct 2004, 15:58
I have heard that Tomn Hughston comes very well recommended.
Either that or sign the Arrer over to my wife and she'll do it :E
Thanks, folks. Some good stuff (online and in PMs) to chew on. Much appreciated.
Chilli Monster
2 licences required if you wish to continue to fly UK Registerd aircraft to France (well maybe not!). But would you want to let your UK licence lapse?
Yes I have paid for 2 Annuals recently. How do you get around a FAA inspector... be interested to know!
Re 50 hour checks.. agreed.. not required.. but then would be silly not to change oil, check hydraulics, compressions etc...
Airways..OK but how often in a SEP? Especially around London!You wont get in nowadays...
It does need careful thinking about, especially if you have bought the aircraft on the UK Reg and then try to sell it US Reg...
UV
Chilli Monster
10th Oct 2004, 08:59
UVHow do you get around a FAA inspector... be interested to know! You don't, but c'est la vie. Check your PM's for a detailed reply.
Flyin'Dutch'
10th Oct 2004, 09:17
UV,
You can let your UK licence 'lapse' for up to 5 years and then revalidate by having a medical and a flight with an examiner.
You furthermore do not need a CAA licence to fly outside the UK in your G reg aeroplane as the FAA license is good for that.
FD
drauk
10th Oct 2004, 18:40
Why not just have an FAA licence "issued on the basis of" your UK one? Then only one medical required to keep both current. You'd still need a BFR I guess. Still, it amazes me when people talk about the cost of a licence or a medical - relative to the cost of owning and flying a (IFR certified) plane, who cares?
Flying Dutch:
"You furthermore do not need a CAA licence to fly outside the UK in your G reg aeroplane as the FAA license is good for that."
No. I dont think so. The CAA provision is only be for flights in UK Airspace. As far as I am aware they do not legislate about these matters outside UK airspace. That is a matter for the nation concerned.
Drauk
"Why not just have an FAA licence "issued on the basis of" your UK one? Then only one medical required to keep both current"
Again No. the wording on an FAA licence reads;
"Issued on the basis of and only valid when accompanied by United Kingdom Licence No...
All Limitations and restrictions on the UK Pilot Licence Apply".
Therefore, UK Medical required to validate UK Licence, in ALL respects, which, only then, can be used to validate a US Licence.
"You'd still need a BFR I guess."
NO wrong too!
Why, if you have a VALID UK licence?....See above limitations!
UV
for reasons I don't pretend to understand, you can fly a G-reg aircraft under VFR on an FAA licence, anywhere that the G-reg can go. 2D may be able to explain the various bits of law that make it so, but I am firmly convinced it is so.
If you have an FAA licence issued on the back of your CAA/JAA licence, you still need a BFR for the FAA bit - as well as for the JAA bit. Them's the rules. I know it may mean two BFRs in a week - one for the JAA, one for the FAA - but there you go.
IO540
12th Oct 2004, 05:36
The reason one is able to fly a G-reg on an FAA PPL, and do so worldwide, it because the CAA automatically validates FAA PPLs.
So, in effect, one is flying the G-reg with a CAA PPL.
englishal
12th Oct 2004, 07:17
NO wrong too! Why, if you have a VALID UK licence?....See above limitations
Because the FAA say so in the FARs......
They also say that if your license is issued on the basis of an ICAO licence, then you DO NOT need an FAA medical, as long as your ICAO license is valid, and you hold a medical certificate.
You can fly a G reg abroad on an FAA ticket, for the reasons IO540 has pointed out....
Cheers
Was at SRG Gatwick the other day. Heard a good rumour. Easa are proposing a six month limit on foreign reg ac in an EASA state. So basically you get six months on the N reg and then it must take state reg.
It was only discussed in passing, and will take years to implement. However it was interesting to hear. I don't know the legalities et al, only being a messenger of a rumour.
If it is true, saves time thinking of the above topic.
Tzar
A hardy perennial, I think. It was proposed at least once before, but the airlines who were leasing N-reg aircraft were a tad opposed to the concept and it was quietly shelved.
EASA is still flexing muscles and learning stuff. Starting a rumour is a good way to test the water...
IO540
12th Oct 2004, 18:42
This one has been around for ages. It was "floated" by the French; then EADS pointed out that it would kill most of their TBM market and the French govt, which always does what big French industry wants, shelved it.
It would also kill off the fractional bizjet operations.
It's not illegal; the USA forces non-N-reg planes to go N-reg within 6 months, I believe.
The UK may well implement something which does a lot of damage but I doubt many other EU states would.
It would also be easy to circumvent; the fractional operations would merely need to rotate their fleet via a non-EU location - easy with a bizjet whose range is more than adequate. Even Jersey would do just fine :O
drauk
12th Oct 2004, 22:02
UV, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. I said why not just get an FAA licence issued on the back of your UK one. You said that won't work because you need a UK medical to keep it current. No debate that you need a UK medical but my whole point was that you don't ALSO need an FAA medical. You said you need two medicals and that is wrong, you don't.
I don't even pretend to understand what mean about being wrong about the BFR. If you have an FAA licence issued on the basis of your UK one you need to keep your UK licence current and you need a BFR if you want to keep your FAA licence current - surely there is no debate about that?
Drauk
Perhaps I have been given duff gen... (wouldnt be the first time)!.
I am going to look into it with the FAA, as I need to get it right for my own flying.
Thanks
UV
slim_slag
13th Oct 2004, 23:38
I'd be more worried about the US authorities shutting these trusts down rather than the European ones. The US Dept of Homeland Security seems to have GA in its sights right now, security measures are getting more ridiculous all the time.
IO540
14th Oct 2004, 09:44
They could shut down trusts but they can't stop you, if for example you know (and trust) somebody who is a US citizen, giving them the aircraft on paper.
The only difference is that this trusted person could run off with it. So.... somebody needs to pay for an indemnity cover. Which takes us back to the Delaware Trust situation, more or less.
The only way the USA could clobber things would be by insisting the aircraft spends a minimum time each year in the USA. This is already an issue with planes owned by US corporate bodies, I believe - though in reality there are no checks and unlike with G-reg there is no reliable database where the planes actually are sitting.
There are plane spotter websites but they are hardly going to be complete. However they could be used to compile a partial list of UK resident N-reg planes and I gather that the CAA already does exactly this.
We must be grateful for the existing privileges, in a world where practically every aspect of freedom is continually tightening up.