Who do I talk to in open FIR?

[left_hand_drive]

Forgive the dumbness of this posting but I'm finding RT to be probably more difficult than learning to actually fly! :confused:

As an example If I'm flying from Norwich to Fenland, I'd initially talk to Norwich, then presumably try talking to Marham but they will most probably be closed at weekends. Do I then try London Information or forget the radio altogether until I'm closer to Fenland and call them to anounce my intentions? The same question really goes for the open FIR, would I always revert to London Info when the military lars is not available and I'm away from the friendly radar services operated by the larger airports?

I'm sure this is very simple but I find the "who do I talk to" subject really confusing. I'm not having any trouble aviating or navigating but communicating is my bugbear at the moment.

Thanks in anticipation for your help,
lhd

[caniplaywithmadness]

The simple answer is talk to whoever you can, if near a large airport try and talk to their approach controllers, if you can't get a service from the military then talk to information.

Just be wary though that not everybody will be talking to information in the open FIR so the see and avoid principle still applies.

[SwanFIS]

lhd

In class G airspace you do not have to speak to any ATC unit, why not dial up 121.5 (just in case) and enjoy the peace and quiet?

If you want a radar service enroute the LARS and approach units are your people, advisable if the airspace is busy, for traffic information or when operating near CAS.

If you just want a (normally!) friendly voice in your headset and someone to ask about pressures, weather, CAS in your area etc. then London or Scottish Information will provide this.

Ask yourself - Do I need or want to talk to ATC? If I do what level of service do I require?

SWAN

[Razors Edge]

If you are routing close to or past an ATC or FISO unit, why not check in, it's only good manners and airmanship. Ask for a FIS and they won't really bother you too much but at least they will be able to tell you about anything which is 'pertinant to Flight safety'.:D

[Port Strobe]

The example in CAP413 provides a good idea as to what you should expect in a typical flight as regards R/T & what sort of service they can/will offer you, have a read through it. I'll leave any further instructions or advice to the others in this forum who do this for a living, I'm somewhat underqualified in comparison but what has been posted so far seems good advice from my viewpoint. I'd like to ask SWANFIS a brief question though (I'm not challenging your comment I'm merely curious) You said ask if you want to talk to ATC in the first place? Why on Earth wouldn't you? Being in receipt of a FIS has never done me any harm even if there's not another machine in the sky for miles around, at least someone knows where I'm going & can tell me the RPS at the very least.

Thanks for your time.

[Chilli Monster]

You said ask if you want to talk to ATC in the first place? Why on Earth wouldn't you? Being in receipt of a FIS has never done me any harm even if there's not another machine in the sky for miles around, at least someone knows where I'm going & can tell me the RPS at the very least.

I think what SWANFIS was getting at was - if theres' no ATC in the area, why worry about talking to someone. It's an acquired skill of when to talk, and when not to. There are times though (and the example posted is one) where, if you're nowhere near another airfield, and it's a good VMC day, then why not dial up a relevant frequency (London info/Scottish info/121.5) to listen to and scream help if you need to, but say nothing and just enjoy the view :)

[Ojuka]

Remember London and Scottish are two very different animals. Scottish have the ability to offer you FIS, but also RIS and RAS. London can only offer you a FIS, ie no radar facility. With the route you mention, I would personally forget London, since many aircraft in your way are not participating with them; and instead listen out on all the Air Ground, AFIS, or TWR frequencies as you progress along the way. If you are close to one particular airfield, it is good airmanship to speak to them and advise them of your passing. Speaking to EVERY SINGLE frequency on the way can leave you with an unnecessarily high workload checking in and out; you are only OBLIGED to speak to them if you intend to infringe their ATZ. In the open FIR, you need not speak to anyone at all. This is rather impolite, but makes for a relaxing journey, so long as you keep your eyes peeled!

[SwanFIS]

Port Strobe

Some pilots are under the allusion that they have to talk to ATC whatever class of airspace they are in, my comment was merely pointing out the other option, enjoy the sky in peace and quiet. I agree that talking to us on FIS gives you another level of insurance should it all go wrong, used properly it is an invaluable service.

Chili

I am sure that it was a slip of your keyboard but the 121.5 I suggested selecting in case of a problem was the D&D (London Centre) freq. If you are not receiving an ATC service this will at least get you in contact with the experts quickly.

Ojuka

London and Scottish FISOs do their initial training together and work to the same rules and constraints. Neither of the units have radar. We are the same animal, the only difference is that our Scottish colleagues growl louder than us!!!

I agree that on the route mentioned by LHD local ATC units are likely to have more relevant information than ourselves.

[Chilli Monster]

I am sure that it was a slip of your keyboard but the 121.5 I suggested selecting in case of a problem was the D&D (London Centre) freq.

No - not a slip of the keyboard at all. It's common practice in Europe to select it these days on the no.2 box in the event of interception. No reason why you shouldn't select it if you're not going to talk to anyone, so that it's ready if you need to shout "HELP"

[SwanFIS]

Sorry Chilli misread your post. Its the way you tell them ;)

SWAN

[Ojuka]

"London and Scottish FISOs do their initial training together and work to the same rules and constraints. Neither of the units have radar. We are the same animal..."

SWANFIS - I was in no way trying to slur one unit against the other! Neither did I imply the controllers are trained and operate to different standards. I don't understand your bit about Scottish Information not having radar. How can they offer RIS and RAS in that case?

[Chilli Monster]

I don't understand your bit about Scottish Information not having radar. How can they offer RIS and RAS in that case? Scottish info is often provided by the Controllers on the area sectors, who have a radar in front of them and so can provide that service.

[SwanFIS]

Ojuka

No offence taken my dear chap.

Just to clear this up, the FISOs that man London and Scottish Information are assistants and as such are not radar trained. I understand that the service in Scotland is sometimes passed (as Chilli says) to the controllers on the airway sectors and they obviously are able to upgrade the service to a RIS or RAS.

This is not a practice that we employ at Swanwick because of the higher traffic levels so as a result we are an information service only.

:ok:

SWAN

[Port Strobe]

Thanks for the replies, I can see your point about not talking to someone if you're not required to & it doesn't compromise on safety.

SWANFIS

enjoy the sky in peace and quiet

Just so long as its not too quiet, that's when your should be talking to D&D! :ok:

[oremeniori]

It took me ages to get round this one!

If you don't need to talk to someone (i.e. Uncontrolled Airspace) then you don't have to.

If you decide want some kind of service you need to know what you want. Call up the local APP/LARS units if you want a "personal" service, encompassing traffic information etc. If not, contact London Information, who give a very limited service. They with give you Forecast QNH, or anything else(within reason) that you request. Rarely will they give you anything without you asking though!

On the other hand if you are anywhere north of Barrow, Scottish Information give a more "comprehensive" FIS with proper traffic information. (There are very few LARS units in Scotland, and Scottish Airspace is so much less busy than London).

However just remember that communication is secondary to aviation; See and be seen.


J

[javelin]

If you are in the FIR, why speak to anyone ? By all means, listen, espescially when close to airfields or controlled airspace, but other than that, I don't want the hassle of talking to some ATC person who is more than likely going to ask me to do something I have no intention of complying with. Particularly anywhere near HUY or MME !

[left_hand_drive]

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to give answers on this. :D

It really has helped and I feel much more confident about planning flights and who to talk to. I'm of the opinion that it's probably better to chat to somebody or at least announce my intentions to local traffic if there is no service available (i.e. the military have shut up shop for the weekend). Failing that, I'd probably try London Info.

Thanks again, :ok:
lhd

[Talkdownman]

If you can't manage to fly without talking to somebody on the ground then why not talk to Thames ? Almost everybody else with the same problem seems to do it irrespective of relevence of location and needs. You'll be in good company and I am sure another won't make any difference to the frequency congestion....... :E

[cortilla]

Personally, if i'm on my own, i prefer talking to someone. even if i'm in the middle of nowhere, i like to tell someone what i am where i am and what i'm doing. I'll just chat to someone every ten minutes or so just to check that my radio is working (like asking the current rps or just a radio check). At the end of the day it's better to know that if something does go wrong, someone can know about it, and send the blues and tunes to the right place.

One thing that was drilled into me by my first instructor was that it's better to be safe than to be sorry. Even if your RT goes tits up, just use plain english (or whatever language) and people will get the message, and do their damnest to help you. I visited d&d in london one time and it gave me a hell of a lot of confidence. The guys said 'we're not here to squel on you we're here to help you', and i got the feeling that they meant it as well. Basically, they do actually like pilots, and they'll do everything to help when the poo hits the fan, cause that's what they're paid to do, and they're decent people who want to help at all times.

If you prefer not to talk to someone, then that's your own want, but i'll always have my radio tuned to the relevent frequency (or my adf to virgin) just for the company.

[Flycon]

Why do you want to talk to anyone at all?? I have flown the lenght of the land and only talked to three agencies - all of which I landed at. LARS controllers will be only too pleased to be able to concentrate on the IFR guys without having to give a FIS to another guy who doesn't really need to be on their frequency

[Talkdownman]

Hear, hear Flycon!

[Red Dragon]

Left Hand Drive,

I'm glad you've come to the conclusion that you should speak to someone when possible. To be honest it worries me that some believe that by talking to ATC they are going to be asked to do something they don't want to do. Class G airspace is by definition uncontrolled.
Working at an ATC unit in class G airspace and having to provide a RAS to IFR inbounds I prefer to know as much about the traffic in the local area as possible. It makes my job a lot easier! A recent airprox between an IFR inbound a microlight transiting the area has highlighted this very issue. If the radar controller had known of the microlight, traffic info could have been passed at the very least, as the unknown wasn't painting on the radar. The pilot of the unknown had selected the frequency but decided not to call. A decision that could have cost him his and possibly more lives given the late sighting of each other.
My advice would be ......CALL. A flight information service doesn't just provide you with useful weather info etc but can, when radar identified, prevent incidents as described above.
I would also add that talk to the CLOSEST unit to the track of your flight. Getting a so called service from an international airport 20 or 30 miles from your position rather that the radar unit 5 miles away doesn't make much sense. The airport in question is only concentrating on their primary task of dealing with their inbounds/outbounds within their CTA. They proabaly don't even know where you are or what your doing despite allocating one of their squawks to you. What level of service are you likely to get?

Advice/rant over!!

:ok: