Sea Plane Rating

[Jinkster]

Where, When, How?

Thought for some good hours building it may be a worthy investment.

Jinkster

[ESSEX BOY]

Only place i know of in the UK is Loch Earn in Perthshire ... ! I believe the company is called Caledonian Seaplanes !

There is a good article in the October Pilot magazine called flying with wellies ... explains all !

as for abroad i have no idea :hmm:

:ok: would like to do it myself oneday !

[BossEyed]

Magnificent fun - throughly recommended. I did it in a 85hp J-3 Cub with wellies. In Florida in August. Not the greatest performance, but that was far from the point.

Jack Brown's Seaplane Base (http://www.gate.net/~seaplane/)

Must have done about 6 hours, including check ride, but that's it. I knew before I did it that few places (if any) in US or Canada will rent solo due to insurance reasons, and there were no aircraft (at the time) in UK at all except for a very few private types. But the fun and the challenge was what I went for, and I am in no doubt that I got my money's worth.

Hours building? Most other ways of doing that will be cheaper and more effective. Don't do the rating for that reason - do it because it's THERE. :D

[FlyingForFun]

Also did mine at Jack Brown's.

A good bunch of instructors. I did get the feeling, though, that most of their students are there just for the fun of getting the rating, and never plan on actually using it. The training is therefore tailored to that kind of student - they show you everything you need to know to pass the test, and make sure you enjoy it, but after passing the test I'm not sure I'd have been confident that I could handle a sea-plane safely solo. Which suited me, because I had no intention of actually using the rating..... ;)

FFF
---------------

[Gertrude the Wombat]

as for abroad i have no idea I did some training with Keith Fraser, Vancouver Island, who also got a write-up in Pilot a couple of years ago.

most of their students are there just for the fun of getting the rating That does seem to be the case.

On trying to find out what it takes to get to fly a real seaplane, ie a Beaver, I find that everyone advises:

(1) Save up $1m.
(2) Buy a Beaver.
(3) Go looking for someone to teach you how to fly it.

However I discovered a slightly cheaper option:

(a) Charter a Beaver for an ordinary tourist flight.
(b) Sit in the right hand seat.
(c) Bang on about how you always wanted to fly one of these until the pilot lets you have a go.

(Of course that doesn't get into the log book, sadly.)

[PH-UKU]

Well, my advice for what it's worth ....... :E

Depends where you go in Canada ..... but if you wanna fly in the UK, why not learn in the UK ? I would heartily recommend Marilynn at Caledonian Seaplanes (http://www.caledonianseaplanes.co.uk) - I did about 7 hrs in Canada (but got to go solo at the end .. although I think that is no longer permitted :{ ), then came back and at a genteel pace finished off the UK rating at Loch Earn (allow 6 hrs or so).

But what do you want to do after that ? If you just want to try it out, then fine. Marilynn gives excellent instruction in mountain flying as well, but you won't be able to go solo ....

However :E :E

Yours truly has got a syndicate together (shares are available). Plan is (for next year) to base an amphib in the Glasgow area. Buy a share and after some suitable extra experience and checkout you could be piloting your own seaplane to lovely remote lochs for picnic and fun...... PM me if you are interested.

:ok:

[MLS-12D]

few places (if any) in US or Canada will rent solo due to insurance reasonsAll floatplane training facilities in Canada will rent solo for the purpose of the rating, as one hour's solo is the minimum legal requirement.

I did my floatplane training at Elmhirst's Resort (http://www.elmhirst.com/air.php), and would recommend it. The current cost of the basic rating package is C$1099 (= £489 at today's exchange rate); accomodation was a lakeside cottage that my wife and I both liked very much. There are many other good places in both Ontario (see list of seaplane training schools (http://www.copanational.org/non-members/LearntoFly/Learn%20to%20Fly%20-%20Seaplane%20Schools%20Ont.htm)), and British Columbia.

Beyond the rating, it can be difficult to find places to rent on a solo basis; but it is certainly not impossible. I believe (could be wrong) that it is considerably more difficult to find such places in the USA, compared to Canada. One place relatively near me that allows solo rentals is Algonquin Flight Centre (http://venturenorth.com/algon/home.html) (Citabria, C$150 per hour, local solo flights permitted after completion of bacis course, x-country solos permitted after 15 hours and checkride).

If you are keen on time-building, my advice would be to sign up for a 50-hour "bush-flying" course. See for example Georgian Airways (http://www.georgianbayairways.com/training/index2b.html).

Some resources:

Flight Test Standards & Guides - Aeroplane (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/flttrain/PLANES/Pubs/TP12668/Part1.htm)

Instructor Guide - Seaplane Rating (TP 12668) (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/flttrain/planes/Pubs/TP12668/menu.htm)

P.S. You may find this thread (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=8955&highlight=seaplane) to be generally helpful.

FAA Seaplane Flight Training Handbook (http://www.seaplanes.org/library/govtpubs/AC61-21A.pdf)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

MLS-12D :

Just a small correction on the solo requirements in Canada for the seaplane rating.

It is five solo take offs and landings, and can be done in a straight line in a few minutes.

That would fulfill the requirement as you took off and landed five times.

Chuck

[MLS-12D]

I did about 7 hrs in Canada (but got to go solo at the end .. although I think that is no longer permittedSolo experience is not only permitted, it is required.

Chuck is quite correct (see CARs 421.38(1)(a)(i)(B) (http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/REGSERV/CARAC/CARS/cars/421e.htm#421_38)), but I believe that most reputable training facilities are interpreting the requirement for 5 takeoffs and landings a bit more practically. Certainly I would not sign up for training with anyone who didn't allow at least an hour's solo.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Interesting opinion you have there MLS-12D.

I always like to examine other opinions on these things and then use logic to make up my own mind on the validity of these issues.

My feelings on the training for a seaplane rating is the teacher must instill sufficient skills level in the student to allow the student to qualify for the rating by passing a flight test.

If the student has been taught to the required standard to pass the flight test he /she is now legal to use the new rating to fly solo.

TC has in their wisdom decided to put the solo in the initial training thereby driving the cost of insuring the airplane sky high for the training provider.

Would it not make more sense to replace the solo requirement with a flight test? Why is there no requirement for solo before qualifying for the multi engine rating?

I feel that I am a "reputable" seaplane training pilot, and I see nothing wrong with doing five take offs and landings in a straight line consecutively rather than taking an hour to do them.

To support my above statement may I point out that it requires more attention to aircraft handling skills to do repetative take offs and landings than doing large circuits, due to the relatively short time frame in changing attitudes from take off to climb to descent to landing.

Anyone wish to comment?

I notice you are a Canadian MLS-12D, why would you agree with a requirement that drives up the cost of operating a flight training business due to higher insurance premiums?

Maybe I am dense, so please convince me that your one hour of solo has any value toward making a student more competant?

Are you trying to convince me that self teaching is more valuable than flying with a teacher?

Naw, the truth is it is a TC requirement thought up by one of their deep thinkers and all you Canadains are stuck with it. :ok:

Im really curious as to why you would not sign up with anyone unless they allowed at least an hour of solo?

Me I think the solo should come once you are taught properly and have the rating. :D

And when I train people I make sure they know what they are doing before I turn them lose, regardless of how long it takes.

Chuck E.

[Tinstaafl]

By an amazing coincidence I just passed my FAA ATP-SEL & SES today** ie I did the ATP test in a C180 amphibian so the one test gives me both single engine land & single engine sea certificates ('licences' to the rest of us). I already had an FAA ATP multi engine land that I did years ago.

I did the course + a couple of extra hours to refamiliarise myself with US procedures etc with Ryan Aviation at Flagler county airport in Florida. It's a small, 1 bloke/1 aircraft school. The bloke owns a C180 amphib. So, by doing the test in it & ensuring I did both water & land landings (or is that land & water alightings? :p ) I got both land & sea ratings for single engine aircraft. Bonus!

I really enjoyed it! Very weird on landing when it transitions from planing to boyancy support. It felt to me like a tailwheel about to nose over. It's also odd stepping out onto the float to dock while the thing is still moving. Bloody hard to judge when to shut down before hopping out!

I suspect the flight test might have been slightly easier for me because I already held a multi ATP so there wasn't such a huge emphasis on ground work as the examiner could have done & maybe only just sufficient look at upper air work & approaches for me to show the required skill. Still hard work though due to the precision the FAA mandate for this licence and in today's turbulance & wind.

**I know the ones I got today aren't strictly 'private' licences but they were done as a way to revalidate my FAA multi licence AND give me access to some 'yippee!' fun flying on a US licence now that I live here. I just couldn't see why I should limit my single privileges when I already held a multi ATP so chose to do the higher licence. I get an automatic IR with this licence which saves me a separate IR test.


And now.......it's WINE THIRTY!!!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Tinstaafl :

Congradulations, mate!!!

Welcome to the exciting world of seaplane pilots.

Amphibs are second only to helicopters for pure flying fun.

Chuck E.

[ontrack]

Try On-Track Aviation Ltd in conjunction with Neil's Seaplanes... they do sep (sea) ratings and are the only one in uk to offer instructor courses on a seaplane.

The former is located near stratford upon avon in warks and the latter in scotland...

check out www.ontrackaviation.com

[Fuji Abound]

Lochearnhead in Scotland. There are three operators on the lake but I flew this summer with the gentleman at the west end who also owns the canoe and water ski centre. If you PM me and are seriously interested I can pass his details to you.

He operates a nearly new yellow Husky which has the additional advantage of being fitted with both floats and wheels.

He is thoroughly professional and very expereinced.

There are several good places to stay locally. Flights can be had to Glasgow of course although I flew myself to Dundee (about an hour and a half drive to Lochearnhead).

I loved the aircraft and also the flying!

[ChrisVJ]

To be pedantic I believe the TC requirements are:

7 hours in seaplane of which 5 MUST be dual. 1 Hr MUST be solo.

Said 5 water landings/take offs.

There is no formal handling test which does leave you with a bit of a hole when you walk out on the dock with your first passenger, strange feeling. I don't suppose anyone is going to let you out solo until they are reasonably certain they are going to get their plane back in one piece. Different if it is your own plane though.

Interestingly any commercial pilot with 50 hours in type (rating type, not aircraft type, ) may act as instructor. No instructor's licence required.

[englishal]

We're off to Laughlin in Nevada to add the SES to the FAA CPL in January (as well as some hard core gambling):D Isn't the upper air work pretty much the same as for SEL, or do the floats make a big difference?

Amphibs are second only to helicopters for pure flying fun
Unfortunately thats what my mate said, and took the first helicopter lesson last week, so also on the cards for next year is to convert to CPL/IR(H). Not convinced about this negative G thing though.....;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Isn't the upper air work pretty much the same as for SEL, or do the floats make a big difference? On the Candian course I did there wasn't actually any upper air work, other than trying to get the thing to fly in balance from one lake to the other. I wasn't offered any stalls, steep turns, whatever.

The floats make a big difference (depending of course on the aircraft). Not only to performance, but also because they've got a large surface area to the side which is quite far forward, so any natural inclination the aircraft might have to fly in balance without you touching the rudder disappears once you put floats on.

[fernytickles]

You could try looking on the Seaplane Pilots Association too - http://www.seaplanes.org/

[egld0624]

Hi All,

Some of the obvious places, countries, etc. have already been mentioned... but one overlooked:

Lake Como has it own aquatic aerodrome with extensive fleet; based just down the road from Lugarno and Milan I would imagine it's a great place to combine seaplanes with beautiful Italian and Swiss mountain flying in the region and without having to cross the globe to do it! And from what I understand they do let you go "SOLO."

http://www.aeroclubcomo.com/En/Fleet.asp

Good luck & let us know how it goes whichever route you take.

EG:ok:

www.navex.aero

[pulse1]

I had a fantastic hour with Caledonian Seaplanes at Loch Earn this summer in their Cub. They run Sea Plane Rating courses for PPL's with 100 hours. It requires 5 hours minimum and, I was told, the average is about 8. Solo flying is not allowed because of insurance limitations.

Apart from the added bonus of mountain flying, I particularly enjoyed the freedom of approaches without the restraints of the normal circuit and runway.

[er340790]

The FAA require a formal Seaplane Rating (ASES/AMES). Did mine with Jack Brown's in Winterhaven earlier this year and thoroughly recommend them.

There were 4 of us on the course - where the hell else can a humble PPL get to train alongside a Space Shuttle pilot, SouthWest 737 Captain and a Dutch North Sea helcopter pilot?! Interestingly all 3 were doing it because their day jobs involve too little 'stick and rudder' real flying.

Also the rating counts as the FAA Biennial Flight Review, so kill 2 birds with one stone!

Canada is slightly different and only requires a seaplane endorsement (from instructor) not a full rating with check flight. Training is pretty much identical but more emphasis on beaching etc in remote areas, given the rugged terrain.

Frankly the scope to use the rating is pretty limited in Europe - one of the main reasons I moved to Northern Ontario last year and bought a 1946 Piper J3 on floats. Find a big lake and fly along the winding shoreline at 15' at 90kts - there is NOTHING like it!!!