Engine Failure after T/O

[Molesworth]

I wonder if I could ask the ATC fraternity to have a look at 'B757 climb gradients' in Tech log?
Now, if I suffer an engine failure at some point after t/o could I (in a sqeaky voice) ask for radar vectors for best terrain clearance? Without being rude, would that requst be understood? And given that my turning and climbing performance is now limited, are suitable tracks known and available?
Most grateful for your inputs- hopefully this will remain entirely hypothetical!!!

[This message has been edited by Molesworth (edited 04 July 1999).]

[Keymaster]

Molesworth
Working for a company whos antique aircraft probably don't make 757 on one engine gradients with all 4 working,;-) if you have serious terrain constraints then either reduce weight, or work out emergancy turn after t/o procedures with the CAA or applicable agency. Indeed at some fields eg Stuttgart the jepps devote some time to pointing out just what a wrist slapping the german feds will provide if they ramp check you and your book figures on one dont look good for the hill at the end of RW25.
But if it ever happens to you, then in the UK calling for help would be a very good idea.

[ateenfore]

I think without exception I could say that if you were lucky enough to be flying your 5 in Oz you would get all the vectors you want from the App/Dep controller, as long as you maintained above RLSALT, which I imagine should be possible most places we have radar coverage with a few exceptions, i.e. YSCB, YBCS. Nobody here is out to fizz you for 2nd segment gradients or the like. Was surprised at the Stuutgart comment! Aren't they there to help?

[Molesworth]

Thanks guys for your replies. In fact we do have published procedures for engine failures at the critical stage of flight, and we NEVER get airborne at a weight which would not allow us to safely carry out the engine failure procedure ( emergency turn) My query is this - say the first turn in my emergency turn procedure starts at 4 miles but the SID says go straight ahead for 5 miles then turn the other way and my engine fails just as I start the SID turn... I can't guarantee that turning back to the emerg turn will be a safe flight path, but nor can I guarantee that my one engined starship will make the climb gradients required by the SID. So the only courses of action are: 1. Know an 'escape route' that, by virtue of the altitude gained before the engine stopped, will be safe, or 2. beg ATC for Radar vectors through the valleys. Is the latter practical in UK?? Please don't misunderstand me - the most critical case is covered more than adequately - it is the 'intermediate' case I am researching. Thanks once again for your input.
M

[This message has been edited by Molesworth (edited 07 July 1999).]

[2 six 4]

Molesworth. We don't actually have any ATC facilities for showing high ground. In area control, as we deal with a large number of airfields for departures, we are unlikely to have detailed knowledge of ground heights. Approach might be slightly different in that they may have a good idea of some sort of minimum sector heights. My instinctive actions in this sort of case would be to :-
1. Allow you to go anywhere you want.
2. Squawk you A7700.
3. Ring departure airfield for any detailed knowledge of spot heights.
4. Stop other traffic departing.

In all cases if you shout help and preferrably at least Pan, Pan, Pan we will do anything you want and ask questions later.

[This message has been edited by 2 six 4 (edited 08 July 1999).]

[PPRuNe Radar]

Hi Molesworth,

Essentially what 2 Six 4 says is correct. ATC will provide the best assistance they can but limited by the knowledge they have.

For interest, you might like to take a look at the the USA regulations on the link below. FAR 121.189 details the loss of engine regulations which provide a net gradient of 2.4% for twin engine aircraft. FAR 121.191 also provides other data as well.

From the UK point of view, all I can seem to find is some stuff in the CAP168 (Aerodrome Licencing) about runway characteristics. Within that, 60M either side of a Class 2,3, or 4 runway the gradient required straight ahead to the specified distance detailed below is 2% (or 1:50), or, where an obstacle exists the gradient is either 1.6% (1:62.5) or to the height of the obstacle, whichever is the steeper. Where a turn exists (e.g on a SID) then the gradient is based on a horizontal straight line from the flight path as though the aircraft is flying straight ahead.

For a Class 2 Runway (800-1199M long) the provision is for 2500M from the runway end.

For a Class 3 Runway (1200-1799M) or a Class 4 (1800M+) it is 15,000M from the runway end.

FAA Link is http://www.faa.gov/

Then enter the drop down list and select the Documents section from where you can enter the FAA Aviation Regulation (FAR) section.

Not sure it's any help, but there you go anyway !! :)

------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 09 July 1999).]

[granny smith]

Molesworth

Best advice I can give is to try and liase with the ATC approach unit in question. It is the approach ATCOs who should have a detailed knowledge of the terrain within 40 nms of their unit and who would be best able to help in this situation. This applies where the tower and approach are co-located at the same unit eg not necessarily the London airports who are based at TC at LATCC, whose approach controllers are valid at more than one airport and may not have worked in either tower.

If you visit the APC unit and mention your concern then it would be possible for you and ATC to work something out. In most cases we are not aware of your emergency turn procedure.

At my unit we only became aware unofficially when a friend who is a 737 driver discussed this very matter with me.

Remember granny knows best!!