And the winner is...... [Archive]

Concrete

27th Mar 2001, 15:51

Well there you go.

Call me cynical (coz I am), but it seems that grinning idiot Blair and 2-Jags ploy has worked. All that fuss about SERCO getting it has deflected attention away from the simple fact that PPP is the stupidest of stupid ideas. All the articles I read in the press lately said that industrial action would be taken only if SERCO got it.

I vote we still strike.

Anyone with me?

------------------
"When not being stupid is not enough"

slurp

27th Mar 2001, 16:33

yes ,it seems to be true....as far as a strike ,surely it would be better to wait and see.The ballot will be put to one side and we will wait and see.Thankfully we won t have to put up with the SERCO guys welcoming us aboard the good ship 'asset stripper'.

[This message has been edited by slurp (edited 27 March 2001).]

Warped Factor

27th Mar 2001, 17:17

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1245000/1245347.stm

WF.

Legs11

27th Mar 2001, 17:30

Now watch the airlines change your working hours to the maximum, and rest periods to the minimum. The air crew work every legal hour that god sends so that their airlines can "safely" operate as "profitably" as possible, and so will NATS controllers. No more spin cycles, early goes or late comes. Oh doom and gloom. Anyway congrats to smiling Tony's cronies. Don't worry about the lottery Richard...I'll see to it that you get NATS!
Enjoy.

Going Around & Around

27th Mar 2001, 17:40

or

www.press.detr.gov.uk/0103/0188.htm (http://www.press.detr.gov.uk/0103/0188.htm)

(Similar, but more figures and less unpleasant pictures of "Two Jags, four chins and, I imagine, a rather sweaty odour")

blippieboy

27th Mar 2001, 17:42

Yep. stand by for individual rosters. Its the one thing that the airlines think they know about.

Bright-Ling

27th Mar 2001, 18:05

This is part of Lord Mac's speach today:

"The Airline Group will also introduce management skills into NATS which will help it to operate efficiently."

You mean it isn't already?!?!?!?!?!

Anyway, the fight isn't over, but I am relieved.

slurp

27th Mar 2001, 19:17

legs11...i don t think anyone thought that the AG were going to sit back and do nothing ,but at least everything will be negotiated with our unions and it is with great relief that the SERCO bid was terminated....and they wont be back.From your piece you seem to be saying SERCO would have allowed the present system.Are you for real???

Serco Stuffer

27th Mar 2001, 19:40

Better the airlines than 'them'. I say we get a really big 'sorry to hear that' card and send it, suitably annotated, to Serco at Hook.

Won't individual rostering etc affect safety? I think so. Anyway, now that Serco is stuffed I will have to go away and think up another name. Champers tonight tho!

------------------
Stuff Serco!

eyeinthesky

27th Mar 2001, 21:18

Well I suppose that now we have Stelios as a part owner we will be able to take the same attitude towards slots as he does towards his passengers as demonstarted in his free half-hour advertising slot every week on ITV:

"What do you mean you're one minute late for your slot? I'm sorry sir, but the slot is closed now. There is another slot available tomorrow morning. I know there is plenty of room for you to fit in the system, but my supervisor is a twit and I'm not clever enough to give you a reasoned argument. Now please F*** Off."

n the wider issue, I remain suspicious of the extent to which we will be used as pawns in the wider aviation game. (Boeing's influence towards the dream of free flight, for example).

We shall see.

------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

roger

27th Mar 2001, 21:21

Have we been hung, drawn or quartered?
(Well,there were originally three to choose from!

RogerOut

27th Mar 2001, 21:30

Roger (nice name :)) we have been well and truly shafted. Why did we keep our powder dry - someone remind me http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif I can think of one way to use it, involving a certain Mr "here's your tea" Prescott.

"Interesting" times ahead........

------------------
RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden

BombBay

27th Mar 2001, 21:46

Well boys & girls, the waitings's over and now you know. ;)
Having worked for NATS and SERCO, I know how much dead wood there is in NATS at "management level".
It'll be interesting to see how many of these terribly important souls decide to try and become operational again. Also, when CATC Hurn relocates to Swannick (or a garden centre nearby), how many instructors will become "surplus to requirements"?
Personally, I dont think that the new owners will change operational ATCOs/ATSAs/Engineering types terms and conditions.
However the big bad wolf is salivating at the management door, and it wont be too long before it blows their cosy little world apart. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

PA7

27th Mar 2001, 21:49

Remember Branson's lot won the national lottery then lost it on appeal. Lets hope that SERCO don't follow the same route with this U-turn Govt. The AG is the lesser of two evils.
We have been hung and drawn...now for the quartering.... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Prior to the announcement...Blair with 2 Jags...heads its SERCO, tails its the AG.......flick and the winner is..

Wig Wag

27th Mar 2001, 22:15

I speak as a B737 Captain with the utmost respect for LATCC.

My concern is that you guys will be subject to an unhealthy culture change under airline management. Yes, pilots are worked to the maximum and it is damned uncomfortable at times. It is very hard as an indvidual pilot to speak out against management practice and working conditions. They have us by the nuts. Airlines are adept at playing Unions off - when was there last a strike in the UK?

As I see it the most important thing to protect are the best aspects of your working relationship with your employer.

The very last thing pilots want is for LATCC to turn up for work feeling distracted by unfavourable new terms and conditions.

Good luck guys.

monkey boy

27th Mar 2001, 22:43

At last, an announcement, it wasn't the one we wanted, the "Oops, we f**ked it up and are big enough to admit it"It is the lesser of two evils, but that's nothing to get happy or complacent about.
When you're faced with 2 piles of s**t, one of which you must eat, you go for the smaller pile, but it still makes you gag, and leaves a horrible taste in your mouth for a long time after.

I hope Bomb Bay is correct and the useless, jobs for the boys lot get a shock. After all it is to them we should really look when trying to apportion blame. Thay sat back and did nothing, thinking that they would receive big fat handouts. The turkeys voted for Christmas, now they must come to terms with that decision.

terrain safe

27th Mar 2001, 23:54

Is it me or do you all think it's a bit suss how contracts have already been exchanged before the announcement was made? I thought this had to go back to the Lords before the final decision was made? Don't the public deserve better than this lot??? :mad:

And another thing. Branson ( :)) must be very happy now that his lottery 'sweetner' for not complaining has come through. Why do we always lose out every way up.

twofive

28th Mar 2001, 01:22

It may be seen as a sweetner for Branson, but he's still supposed to be claiming millions in damages for the lottery debacle.

Are we all looking forward to wearing our shiny red Virgin uniforms? Bagsy the stiletto's!

2 sheds

28th Mar 2001, 02:54

Whatever the reservations about the Airline Group (and let's remember it is a Group, nor Richard Branson), and even if it is a matter of "lesser of two evils", let us at least enjoy this moment of discomfort for S***o, who thoroughly deserve the recent public laundering of some of their dirty washing.

Anyone have a few words for their management on this occasion?

Concrete

28th Mar 2001, 03:42

To those that have mentioned it, what exactly is meant by individual rostering?

Do you mean that instead of Z-Watch all being on mornings/afternoons/nights together and all starting and finishing at the same time, everyone will be given an individual start and finish time?

If so, there is already at least 1 NATS unit that is rostered like this. It couldn't be run in any other way. Makes roster writing a nightmare apparently.

------------------
"When not being stupid is not enough"

Chis, Colin Chis

28th Mar 2001, 04:28

Oh Deary, deary, me

How great you think the Airline Group are!

HMG have had you ALL with that great trick of threatening something worse.

They may not want to make a profit with NATS.

But remember, Gussy said today in the Lords that they would reduce costs to the users. Oh themselves that is ! Same thing.

Reducing costs to users. Mmmmm that is a whole new thread how to do that....

NATS have actually done a bl**dy good job over the last ten years both in terms of costs and traffic movement. Didn't cost the country a penny. Safely. Shame it will probably end now.

---------------------------------------------
I'm off to Barbados to Be shaken and stirred!! McNulty (Sir) - you ain't comin'

passepartout

28th Mar 2001, 04:54

Apologies to those who have read this reply in Rumours and News.
Want to know what the future holds? Two of the Airlines involved in the Airline group have recently questioned my unit about the need for there to be 3 controllers on a night shift (necessary to keep radar open).
Despite the fact that the unit averages about 50 movements a night (mainly cargo).They want to know why they should pay for the extra controller when none of their flights are operating!

Legs11

28th Mar 2001, 21:08

Concrete....Individual rosters.....Kiss goodbye to the watch system. Each controller will get her/his own roster with start/stop times, days on/off etc. No more regular shifts, expect days and hours all over the place (all within Sratcoh of course!) in order to get the maximum time out of the minimum controllers. No more sitting around at home on night shifts etc. If your not needed then your not rostered on.
Does this help at all?
Enjoy

beaglepup

28th Mar 2001, 22:14

More important peeps. Wot about Airline Staff Discounts... :-)))

fill-your-boots

29th Mar 2001, 11:37

I reckon we should be relieved overall, I know I am. Remember that the Tories were proposing a free for all privatisation - we have at least escaped that. Although the airlines have not exactly covered themselves in glory on the industrial relation's front in the last few years it is genuinly not in their interests to reduce the safety of the system or our morale.

Individual rostering may well be just over the horizon but lets be honest, the watch system is extremely inefficient and we all know the abuses that go on. Great while it lasts sure but when the real world catches up with you then you can't realistically complain too much. I know that most of my mates outside ATC work a damn sight harder than I do for less reward though I acknowledge they don't ultimately have the responsibility.

Something I am more concerned about is the possibility that companies that we may see as undesirable getting in through the back door. If any of the airlines we currently have goes a bit financially wobbly and need some cash what is to stop them selling their share on? Maybe I have missed some small print somewhere.

The most significant thing that the whole sorry saga has proved to us all is that politicians of any colour are just so completely untrustworthy. "Our skies are not for sale" Ho Ho Ho!

------------------
cleared-to-go. what slot time?

slurp

29th Mar 2001, 19:40

must say legs11 sounds miffed ....hope the rest of SERCO does too...

Serco Stuffer

29th Mar 2001, 19:44

I don't think that any core business area of NATS, or any part that 'adds value' to the service has much to worry about. Our unions have proved their strengths, for which they are to be congratulated, and the airlines have a vested interest in seeing that we mauntain what we do. That also means the way we do it. Pretty much.

However, we do have an AWFUL lot of management dossing around the place. Count them. Target bearing *** cleared in hot.......

Lots of these managers spend all of their time attending endless meetings and presentations at incredible cost. Yoy want to save money 'AG' you know where to look.

RATBOY

29th Mar 2001, 22:43

Check out Part II, Condition 19 "Pre-notification of changes in shareholdings" in the draft air traffic services license available on www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/nats/license/index.htm. (http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/nats/license/index.htm.)

It appears the HMG must consent to sale of shares and purchasers must meet standards for financial responsibility, national security, moral rectitude, and I forget what else. Pretty small piece of paper to rely on and who gets to do the judging?

This exercise is not fun to watch, but must be lots worse to live through.

Bright-Ling

30th Mar 2001, 01:05

You're right.....how are they to enforce that?

If what you say is correct, none of us will be entitled!!!!!!

Seriously, love to see them try and enforce that under European Law (that subject that the Government are so good at!).

[This message has been edited by Bright-Ling (edited 29 March 2001).]

identnospeed

31st Mar 2001, 02:27

Legs 11,

I've worked night shifts every cycle for 3 years......never been at home on a single one, always turned up at the start and always went home at the end. All this in the busiest area radar environment in the UK.

INS

ayrprox

31st Mar 2001, 02:53

The vibe i'm getting from this is that a few seem to think its all done and dusted.
The papers, the TV the MP's, even the unions have been quoted as being happy with the deal.
well i'm far from happy, yes the airlines were the lesser of two evils, but they were still not the best of the options available.
does this mean that we shall never hear the mention of strike action again? as our union seem to have gone very quiet. the powder seems to have blown away in the hot air that is westminster
:mad:

SercoController

31st Mar 2001, 07:25

Ha Ha HA UK ATC (Airline Traffic Control) Coffee please. You had the chance to be a world wide ATC system you blew it again. You will remain a second rate ATC system that the US (serco included) laughs at. At least when it is time for the US to privatise, they will have you to look at and make a good choice. You morons shot yourselves in the foot. I wonder why the us Laughs at the UK when it comres to ATC. My CV icludes 9 years at Oakland Center and 21 years at Bay TRACON and 5 years with Serco. You blew it. But what a surprise, like your ATC system has ever been impressive. This is my last post to the Lame board you admire.

AyrTC

31st Mar 2001, 11:16

SercoController.
It saddens me deeply that I will be unable to work with professional people of the high calibre that you have displayed in your postings in this forum.Please keep your promise that you will never return to this board.
You will be sadly missed NOT!.
AyrTC

[This message has been edited by AyrTC (edited 31 March 2001).]

PA7

31st Mar 2001, 11:20

SC.
Sounds to me like you are a little upset. Good riddance mate. Oh and by the way wasn't it SERCO that blew it. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Loki

31st Mar 2001, 12:11

A thought:

If SercoController has all the experience he claims, why is it that he writes like an 11 year old?

RogerOut

31st Mar 2001, 14:59

Sorry guys I bit at that tw*t in the "Serco New Horizons" thread, well at least he's away (aren't you:)). Jesus, what a professional eh? Personally I quite like the Americans but he could start new rhyming slang for "Yank". Perhaps his company has put him up to it, being as they spent SO much money on their bid and lost it all. Maybe they'll have to get rid of some more staff, now where could they start....... :confused:

BuzzLightyear

2nd Apr 2001, 04:31

Now that we are part of the airlines does that mean we will have to wear uniforms with lots of gold braid and scrambled egg on the hat?

I don't mind as long as the badge doesn't say "BA Easy Virgin"!! :)

------------------
To infinity and beyond