BHX - 'Brecon Procedure'

[Oldie Volvo]

Just a quick one for our London-Mil friends.
I was guesting at BHX the other day and went
off r/w 33 upon the brecon procedure which
links the BHX zone and UA25. We requested
radar advisory as the weather was ok but not
clear VMC. Passing approx 15000 and at 300kts
we are instructed to turn 'hard right' followed almost immediately by 'turn hard
left'. At no time did we see any TCAS contact
nor any visual sighting of traffic. I strongly suspect that as weather below 5000
was good VFR that the traffic seen by the
controller was a puddle jumper wombling down
towards the Malvern Hills. The point I make is whether the controller lost sight of
the fact that I have 250 people on board my
aircraft and instructions for climbing break
turns are not very practical. This local
procedure which avoids the need to flog over
LHR and the south-east is of great value and
we rarely have problems but if the radar head
is so limited in its capability ( ie 'poor
performance diatribe') are we stretching the
bounds a little ?

[kennedy]

as i regularly use the bcn procedure in a 50 seat puddle jumper i tend to wonder if this route will ever become controlled airspace it might free up some cpt/ cowly departures

also how about controllers asking GA lighties to squark mode charlie so those expensive little toys called TCAS give us a few less nusance "TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC" but still give us useful protection

only 2 ideas are they feasible?

[5milesbaby]

As you were outside controlled airspace in close vicinity to several major military airfields then you must expect to get radar returns to avoid. Don't forget also its ultimately your responsibilty to keep seperation, even on a RAS, up to FL245. As its Class G a/s, transponders are not a requirement below FL100, but the controller still cannot let your returns merge, so could actually be seperating you from something at 1000ft even when your up at FL240! My view is that if you want to gain the benefits of this route, live with the consequences, if not, go via SAM. Personally I think that BECAUSE you have 250 pax, you should automatically stay within CAS; and also the controller never loses sight of who you are, but seperation is seperation, and out in the abundu we may not get much notice.

[Spotnik]

Big airliners outside of controlled airspace has always worried me. RAS/RIS isn't always fully understood by controllers let alone pilots. Just imagine then if there were an incident/accident what the jolly tabloids would make of that? Aeroplanes not under 'proper' ATC? What's going on!?! Just think of the fallout on your airline. There's at least one UK airline won't fly even on advisory routes. Stay on the airways.

On the other hand being flung around the London TMA may be less preferable to swerving out of the way of a couple of Tornados occasionally :)

[Numpo-Nigit]

The route between BCN and Birmingham passes very close to the Clee Hill radar site. As the military controllers use a single source radar, rather than the mozaic multi-source used by civil, they must use their skill and judgement to select the appropriate radar for the task in hand. Using the Clee Hill will display every "puddle jumper" in the circuit at places like Gloucester-Staverton, causing "pop up" traffic every time something takes off, but will not ensure that high level traffic in or near the radar overhead is shown. I don't envy the military the task of providing a service in this area.

However, there is at least a procedure, agreed by civil and miltary, to provide such a service, under clearly defined conditions. When this route first became popular many years ago, there was no such agreement. There were frequent occasions when we had a Birmingham inbound fast-approaching BCN and the miltary would say "no service available". Whilst I'm sure it was for sound operational reasons, it always seemed to happen in the evenings when there was something good on TV!!!

Whether it is good practice to fly large passenger aircraft through un-controlled airspace, when there is a reasonable alternative, is another question. A similar area of concern is the route between Exeter and SAM, where there is no logical alternative CAS route. Such is the amount of traffic out there, working so many different ATC units (or none), that a serious incident is almost inevitable. If CAS cannot be provided for this route, then we need a comprehensive agreement on procedures between LATCC civil, LATCC mil, Plymouth Radar, Exeter and Yeovilton as to who does what and when, and as soon as possible.

[beaglepup]

When I was an ATCA at Brum in the late 60's, there was an "advisory" airway from HON-BCN [I think], but got chopped after a couple of "incidents"

[Avalon]

Any reason why all airspace above FL100 over land in the London FIR can't be Class D? It would solve one heck of a lot of problems and greatly increase flight safety.

[Oldie Volvo]

Thanks everybody for your thoughts. In respect of the 'major military airfields'
between BHX and BCN we are talking about
Brize, Lyneham and when it reopens Fairford.
These are the homes of large transport aircraft and occasional US tankers/bombers.
As such these aircraft are highly unlikely
to be wombling around without a radar service
unless at low-level which makes them academic
in this matter. My concern with LATCC was not
about the excellent service that we receive
from them but from the occasional perception
that they had forgotten the type of aircraft
they were dealing with at the time. If I was
still flying aircraft with roundels I would
be happy to make somewhat more aggressive
avoidance manoeuvres. The other suggested
option not to use this procedure would only
add to congestion heading south from BHX with
possible slot implications. I have a sneaking
feeeling that the airline which will not make
use of London Mil is Britannia which comes as
little surprise to those of us who share some
of the same destinations.

Anyway, thanks again for the responses

[3rd Runway]

When I was a controller at the premiere area radar unit (Brize Radar!) I used to ponder the same issues regarding the BCN procedure.

Firsty, you go outside CAS, you accept the risks/rules.

Kennedy has a good point. How many ac tool around without selecting Mode C. I believe that use of Mode C should be mandatory if fitted. Yes, I guess there will be more corrupt readouts and TCAS RAs. However, I believe the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

The airspace is ot only used by BZN, LYE and FFD. Other conflictors include Staverton, Cardiff, Bristol x 2, Oxford and a plethora of jets entering/leaving the Welsh low level systems. I am not suprised that you got avoiding action in this airspace.

Radar head selection is a big issue. Almost all the radar heads within the UK are sited and optimised for the airways system. This makes sense as the civil airspace users pay for these facilities. Ergo, radar coverage in the open FIR is not as good as you would ordinarily expect. Again, any operator using the BCN procedure should be aware of the increased 'risk'. If my memory serves me correctly, the controller does not have the option of switching to another head until you are passing FL180/200.

250 pax in Class G airspace is not good practice; please, let's not re-visit this argument in this thread.

[foghorn]

Is Fairford re-opening? The Americans again?

[Hooligan Bill]

Oldie Volvo,

I do not think it is a case of the controller forgetting the type of a/c that you are in, but it is the type of aircraft that causes the problem. The provision of RAS is a thankless task, you are basically the service is the same as a Radar Control Service, but without the luxury of a known traffic environment. Therefore there is very little scoop for forward planning. You are out there doing 250kts+, unknown traffic pops up in your 12 o'clock range of ten miles. At the speeds you are going to be on top of that traffic in just over a minute. Under the rules of RAS I have to give you 5nm lateral separation if there is no height info, 3000ft if there is, and in the latter case not letting the returns overlap. In order to achieve that, I am going to have to give you quite a large turn, bearing in mind I may have no idea what the other traffic is going to do.

If company procedures allow, why not take a RIS. The traffic will get called and you can use visual scan/TCAS. If the traffic is not sighted you can always ask for avoiding action.

[2Donkeys]

3rd runway, re: the mandating of Mode C if fitted.

AIP ENR 1-6-1 2.2.2

"...pilots should select 7000 and Mode C..."

Not mandatory perhaps, but strongly advised. I think that this is an educational issue for pilots rather than a legislation one. We can probably assume that given a choice, pilots would rather been seen on radar and avoided.

-2Donkeys

[3rd Runway]

2D thanx. As you say, education is the order of the day.

[Oldie Volvo]

Hooligan Bill

Thanks - I do use RIS when appropriate and
this does help to alleviate the problem.
When the weather is dogxxxx of course the
problem with light aircraft is minimal - it
is on those all too rare days when its good
VFR up to about 3000ft and with extensive
cloud cover above that is the problem.

I think we've done this one to death now -
one day not so far away I suspect that all
airspace above 10000 will be CAS and life will become easier for all.

[zonoma]

volvo - easier for all, except the controller who has it slapped on to the end of his bit.