A1 Training

[monkman]

Just wondered if anyone has any comments on the standard of training on the A1 course at NERC.

[Mr Chips]

Have you? I guess from your profile that you are involved.....

[Hedge End Estate Agent]

Brilliant - any comments monkman

[BEXIL160]

Well, they aren't very tollerant of ANYONE who criticises their beloved NERC system.

Try raising the issue of Sector NAMES vs. Numbers and you will be cut off very shortly.

I get the impression that they don't like operational ATCOs and ATSAs who ask awkward questions.

Have fun!!!!

[Take3Call5]

Bexil,

Not by me! Ask Numpo, who I had the pleasure of (s******) recently. You'll have been chopped off because you were asking a question not relevant to your training. MMI trainers teach MMI, they're not responsible for any decisions made etc. They teach you what they have been taught to teach, anything else is outside their remit.

[bill]

by all means give constructive criticism about A1 but please, as Take3 says, don't simply shoot the messenger... go down with an open mind, you may be surprised

[Take 5]

OK Here's some constructive criticism ...Traffic samples...for Sectors 20,21 and 23 at least they were very poor. Very disappointing considering the amount of time there has been to get them right. This was pointed out as a problem over a year ago by the NERC VIRGINS on the "dummy" course. They really must improve bt the A2.

Training was generally good although there needs to be more questioning at the end of the sessions on the lines of "how would you display "xyz" on TDB line three" or When would you get "act man" etc, rather than just be led through the book.

I get the impression that most people on the course felt they had learnt a lot but understood only a little. I know there is plenty of time for pradtice and consolidation but a dozen or so practical objective tasks at the end would have given more of an impression of having acheived something.

[Numpo-Nigit]

Having just survived the A1 module, here are a few thoughts.

1. The standard of practical instruction I received was excellent (not just from Take3Call5 !!!).

2. I felt that the classroom lectures were rather superfluous. Perhaps they were purely there to "waste" time whilst the TDU was being reset, or perhaps I just "missed the point".

3. As an acknowledged awkward ATCO, I felt that my questions were handled well. Any questions that the instructor could not answer immediately were passed onwards and I received an answer later on.

4. Traffic samples - a difficult one this. Some sectors are probably too quiet for current SCs, but for the non-radar CSCs and Watch Managers, any more traffic when playing Tactical would defeat the object. A balance has to be struck, and you can't please all the people all the time.

5. As this was the first time that I had been exposed to the NERC system (I don't count walking through the Ops Room and having things pointed at), there were several things that I was pleasantly surprised about, when it seemed that the designers actually understood the needs of ATC. However, it always seemed that the next "feature" contradicted that impression. So my personal jury is still out on whether NERC is on the side of good or evil!

6. NERC canteen serves good food but seems badly laid out with lots of conflict points. Perhaps a resectorisation, or some flow management, would help.

7. For those on an afternoon shift who are staying in the hotel, there is a lot of hanging about. Being required to vacate the room by 11am, with lunch not being available until 1230 or 1pm, means wasted time. I don't know what the answer is, but perhaps there could be a rethink which would better utilise people's time without increasing their working day.

8. Finally, sector numbers!!!! I agree with the above comments that it is not the fault of the instructors - so don't "have a go" at them. However, to me, it seemed worse than I expected. I was sat on sector 8 (not the good omen I expected !!!), but there were other numbers like 831 that seemed to be significant (never quite sussed that out!!!). Still, the only way I knew which sector I was on was because there was a big card on the top that said 129.375 - oh, this must be Strumble. My mind was never "open" on this issue, but I can feel the locks turning and the bolts being thrown. To be fair, even SOME of the instructors admit their doubts - management must really grab this issue by the horns, as it is poisoning perceptions of the entire NERC project. I'm led to believe that the change to names on the telephone panels and co-ordination sequence display is not that difficult. They just need to open their minds - a bit of "I'm OK, you're OK" perhaps?

[Maineman]

I don't know what is wrong with coordinating using a telephone device.

[Take3Call5]

Take 5

Dunno why the beef about traffic samples. The A module is to teach you MMI, not ATC. Hence the use of APS’s and other support staff to train you. Come the B modules (sector specific) you’ll find realistic traffic and will be trained by valid LATCC staff (NTT). Module A just has a few planes floating around so you can practice interaction with the system.

Numpo

Thank you for your comments. Your specific questions:

4. See the answer above; you’re not doing ATC yet. The B modules start light and then get busy.

5. Evil of course! (Cackling maniacal laughter!!)

8. The 831 you refer to was the workstation number. As the sectors can be bandboxed anywhere there has to be a method of referring to individual workstations (so the engineers know which ones to fix!). Apropos nothing at all the Local Area Groups have workstations commencing with the same number. To do with the LAN that connects them up.


Maineman

You’re sh**ing us right? How long does it take you to do telephone co-ordination? How much quicker do you think it is not to have to do it or at least not have to pick up the phone? With UK traffic levels growing at about 7% a year every little help makes things easier.

[BEXIL160]

Take3Call5...

Having completed the A0 module I now KNOW that I have the RIGHT to ask questions and not feel guilty.

I was very careful to frame my questions in the "I'm OK, you're OK" mode, not sniping and not tanking. Do you know how I felt when my queries were just brushed aside?

I know that I am at NERC to learn about the new system and I ACTUALLY WANT TO. I want to have confidence in the new system. A system that hasn't had the best press, you'll admit.

ALL your instructors need to understand this and be open and honest and answer all queries to the fullest extent. Just telling me "to have faith, it all works really", is not good enough.

Come "O" date I do not want to hear from anyone at NERC, "You never told us that this or that was a problem durring the OCT". No, it doesn't look like were gonna get the chance.

Rgds BEX.

P.S. Why is departure CCTV not available on the SIS????

[Take 5]

T3Call5

"Why all the beef re traffic samples"

Not much point in trying to teach someone how to move something out of the departure bay if the traffic sample has nothing in the departure bay !

When the book/instructor says try hooking a paired military flight and oh dear - there aren't any - then you think if they can't get the simplest of traffic samples right - what chance later on.

PS I like you're name better than mine - I might change by deed poll to Take 3.5 Call5 (snitch)

[Big Nose1]

Numpo, it must be drugs or alcohol, you are almost neutral about NERC. Who knows after A2 you may even be slightly positive.......that would be scary!!!!!!!

[eyeinthesky]

I also found it very frustrating to have questions cut off by the 'you don't need to know that now' answer. Like many people, I try to tie something I am learning into a process which I understand, so I often asked how such and such a procedure would work with such and such a problem in the ATC world. This was met with the 'you don't need to know that yet' answer. I suggest that most ATCOs are intelligent enough to separate what is required knowledge for A1 and what is useful to know to help you understand, even if the specific question they are asking will be dealt with in detail on a later module. I suspect that the MMI trainers are under pressure to keep the training as structured and uniform according to the lesson plan as possible. It is however the mark of a good mentor that they can take the lesson to areas explored by the trainee and still manage to bring it back on track.

Regarding traffic samples, I also found it very odd that we sat in front of the screen on the group exercise at the end of day 2 to practise electronic coordination and NOT ONE aircraft that passed through the sector needed coordinating. They were all on OLDI links for entry and S.As for exit. Whoever wrote the exercise could have put in a few non-standard overflights to allow us to practise what we had learnt.

Having said all that, I was impressed by the system's capabilities and thought the MMI trainers did their best. We shall see how it develops. ;)

------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[Take3Call5]

Bexil 160

You’re OK and I’m OK. If your carefully framed queries were re. Names/numbers then, as I said, the trainers don’t know. Most of the team here were presented with numbers as a fait accompli, because that’s how the system was developed.

Correct the system hasn’t had the best press because (I think) management introduced people to it when it was nowhere near ready and VERY unstable. Plus things get reported back to LATCC blown out of all proportion. I have been quite amused at times to hear on the jungle drums about the latest ‘NERC Show Stopper’, which has actually been solved by the time its gone around the watches.

The instructors (to the best of my knowledge) do try and answer your questions to the fullest extent. But if they don’t know the answer………. Plus you’ll have been exposed to the full NERC system by the end of OCT, there is nothing to hide and nothing is being hidden. No-one at NERC (AFAIK) wants to ‘pretend’ things are perfect, if there are ‘quirks’ or workarounds you’ll know them. Bear in mind that the system at LATCC is hardly perfect, you’re just used to it.

Departure CCTV, hhmmm, dunno never thought about it, I’ll find out and get back to you.


Take5

OK, I hope your instructor raised these issues with the course manager so they can be addressed.

You can have my name in exchange for your NERC bung, deal? :-)


Eyeinthesky

As explained to me the reason why you’re told you don’t need to know something yet is:

a) Because it will be taught (in great depth!) later
&
b) There’s a danger of overload with some people. There is an awful lot to take in during those first few hours/days and some will get swamped.
Plus ATSSD are VERY keen on structured and uniform lessons. Going off into other areas both detracts and uses up the time allocated to the lesson you’re supposed to be doing and will earn us a slapped wrist from ATSSD.


Disclaimer: This posting does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either
myself, my company, my friends, or my children; don't quote me on that; don't quote
me on anything;
Resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; all models are over 18 years of age; dry clean only; do not bend, fold, or mutilate; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; information is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied; user assumes full liabilities; not liable for damages due to use or misuse; read at your own risk. Postings may contain material some readers find objectionable.

[Blame_NERC]

Here is a suggestion.

Why doesn't someone organise an 'informal' Q&A session which people can attend if they want to know a bit more. In the bar perhaps? :-)

[eyeinthesky]

Take3:

I understand what you're saying about overload, but the flip side is that I came away with some fairly negative ideas about the problems the timing of ACTs would cause on my relatively short sector. It revolved around the fact that the ACT would go before the a/c was on frequency, and if it then wanted a different level to that filed then manual coordination (i.e. telephone) would be necessary. I have since found out through talking to less reticent members of the NTT that this can be altered by another procedure. I do not want to know the details of the procedure (that can wait to the relevant module), but had I been given that info by the MMI trainer then I would have been able to sort the situation in my head better. ATSSD surely are not in favour of ATCOs learning one thing in one module and then having to unlearn it in another? (But then it is ATSSD...)

As I said, flexibility of the mentors to adapt the level of teaching to the ability of the student is an important skill. Or so we are told in our OJTI training.



------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[Mustafa Slippage]

eyeinthesky

Nice to see a constructive, healthy interest in it all and it's a shame that your quest for knowledge hasn't been satiated.

I thought that the system as a whole exceeds expectations. I can see a few real world problems with it e.g. Sabenas requesting wildly different cruise levels than filed but although apparently important to me now, I know it can be sorted out. The bad bit is some of the trainers palming this off with a 'well tell them they can't do what they want' type response which is slightly patronising to a valid, intelligent ATCO/ATSA.

The trouble appears to be finding someone credible who understands the reason why the system is the way it is and why it is which are subtely different things. This info appears to be more readily available at LATCC in the canteen than at NERC due to a familiarity gap perhaps; all the same, I think the suggestion of a Q&A session has its merit and would help satisfy the unsatisfied.

Despite the (my) innate ATC ability to see the bad side of any changes, personally I feel more positive than negative at this stage. Imagine how good it would have been if it was on time!