Virginblue recruitment

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....

Where is VB at the moment with regard to pilot recruitment? Are they still taking DE capts? And what are the roster patterns like - still 8-10 overnights/month? Any updates gratefully received :cool:

[Dehavillanddriver]

It has all but stopped.

No DE Captains from now on - there are plenty of F/O's with the required quals to upgrade, including at least 1 former 767/A320 captain who unfortunately joined during a period when no DE captains were being hired.

I suspect that the airline is now a 7-10 year to command airline like most other outfits.

[The Enema Bandit]

That is, if they are still around then of course.

[Icarus2001]

Of course they will be around. Just as Jetstar will be. The egos of those at the top of both airlines will not permit them to fail. Both airlines have big brother airlines operating internationally.

I think 7-10 years for a command is a little on the high side. Remember there is no seniority to choke up progression. They have been losing a trickle of FOs to overseas contracts once they have some jet time in the log book. Agree that DE Captains are not going to be needed in the forseeable future.

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....

Thanks for the replies...looks like I'm stuck in Europe for a bit longer then. Just so that I know what I'm missing out on, what sort of money is a skipper on these days?

:{ :ok:

[Dehavillanddriver]

About 145 - 150k plus allowances - say 10-12 grand a year tax free.

Plus 9% super
6 weeks leave
loss of licence paid to $2100 or $2300 can't remember which.

If you do a search you will find our EBA on the net somewhere.

The tax is the killer though - I pay enough tax to support a small village somewhere! Ah the progressive tax system, ain't it great!

[The Puzzler]

Puzzle me this....

Thanks dHd, I know what you mean about tax! Income tax in the UK is slightly lower than Oz but its the stealth taxes that really bite. At least you've got the sunshine! ;)

[flametree]

So what would an FO be on then? Are they hiring FOs at the moment?

[Icarus2001]

DehavillandDriver I have been searching for the Virgin EBA on the net. The airc and wagenet sites only have the version from 2000. The new EBA is on the AFAP website here..http://www.afap.org.au/html/default.asp but a password is needed to access it.

Does anyone else know how to find a copy?

[cool&thegang]

DJ F/O around the 100k mark + super + loss off licence and allowances as mentioned above.

Don't believe the hype on this overly negative forum,it is an enjoyable job,90% good blokes up the sharp end, and some great eye candy to boot.

Promotion is a bit of a dog's breakfast at the moment,and criteria is somewhat undefined,far too many so-called "experienced" people joining and expecting accelerated commands ahead of others who joined long before them. Take a number and stand in line boys.

Recruitment has slowed until next year it seems,but as mentioned above,there will always be movement through retirements and those seeking greener pastures overseas.

Hang in there guys,it aint perfect,but it's the best job going round these parts at the moment....rat included:p

[Gnadenburg]

There is always a discrepancy in VB wages.

Cool Gang-never heard of any VB F/o making anywhere near a 100k.

Met a VB captain recently. He and some of his mates ( two eventually successful ) attempting to abandon ship. He said last year he made only 130K for almost 900hrs. I made this in 95 as an F/O.

Don't delude yourselves. VB pilots are grossly underpaid in a booming pilot market.

I am jaded, can't stand VB because I feel threatened by what pilots work for. The dominoes continue to fall and only reversed by where it started- can't you blokes get a payrise?

Good luck to the VB guys trying to get out. It is sad; only a few years ago well paid airline jobs based in BNE would see no attrition.

[TopTup]

Out of curiosity, what are the min requirements into VB? I did a brief search a while ago and was sent to the pilot.cv website, which I am all too familiar with.

I am assuming it is the 1500, 500 multi, ATPL and 3 renewals? Unlike QF there doesn't seem to be the exact crtiteria anywhere.

[Iakklat]

Cool and the gang i think you have drunk to much cheap vino on your 15 overnights per month.
Cant agree more Gnadenburg,its just quite remarkable to see the poor sucess rate of the Vb guys to gain employment into reputable airlines outside of Oz.
Good luck to the guys this week at you know where:p
Common theme amongst all of the prospective candidates is that they are so sick of being poor:ooh:

[Karunch]

This really belongs in the General Aviation forum given the employer concerned.
Cool& the gang, if f/o's are earning 100K per year I wouldn't think there are too many greener pastures out there. When you are in paying rent next time, have a think about how you'll get out of the rental trap (or western suburbs) given your grim financial situation.
Iakklat- spot on, the other common theme is the candidates all want to get out of the charter game.
Gnadenburg is correct, these guys should fix the rot they started but realistically aren't worth any more than they are currently paid.

[CallButton]

"I think 7-10 years for a command is a little on the high side. Remember there is no seniority to choke up progression. They have been losing a trickle of FOs to overseas contracts once they have some jet time in the log book." - Icarus2001

Mmmm Icarus. How does that the fact that FOs are leaving aid in progression? And how does seniority 'choke up' the progression?

I think that VB FOs are dreaming if they think that a command is even 10 years away. With Pacific Blue and Virgin Atlantic taking any available expansion into the o/s market AND the fact that alot of VB captains are younger than "most other outfits", the only foreseeable way to a command is through medical failures or retirements i.e. a looong wait.:sad:

[Next Generation]

It must be terrible, suffering from a superiority complex.

VB F/O basic salary $ 86500
Retention Bonus $ 9750

Total $ 96250

That sounds pretty close to the $ 100,000 mark.

Also, as mentioned, Super, Loss of insurance, and 10 to 12 k per year in allowances.

This really belongs in the General Aviation forum given the employer concerned. I have never heard of a General Aviation company that pays that kind of money, and if there is, I bet that they don't pay 250 First Officers that amount.

Anyway, you go and reassure yourself that you and your skygod buddies are the best, and deserve to be paid much more.

[Iakklat]

Yep next generation its pretty sad when you have to so proudly quote and take in to account that your dinner allowance,super and loss of licence are all part of the wonderful and generous package that Vb pay your happy little pilot group.
Karunch was perhaps not drawing parallels to your salary and ga, but maybe to your operating ethos at the employer concerned .Just talk to any one of your comrade pilots who have worked for a decent carrier and ask there opinion :O
You guys sold out in every respect, I, like Karunch,Gnadenburg and countless others just sit back and shake my head in disbelief from far away shores at the spiralling industry in Oz.The stories from guys trying to escape the sentence and get a better job are just unbelievable.You and your like minded thinking budddies are just a cancerous plague and a direct threat to the working conditions of airline pilots that work for respectable carriers globally.:D

[Iakklat]

Now ive heard it all, a Virgin Capt comparing and justifying his conditions against Ek.
Dehaviland when you take in to account tax rates,company profit share(which was 3 months salary this year),schooling,housing,tax free car loans,allowances, man you fall way short.
So slap on your bomber jacket and sing another song on the Pa Dehavilland as you are deluding yourself.:mad:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Iakklat you are a fool. EK pay those extras because they must to get people to live in the sandpit. It's an expatriot package that recognises the high cost of living in the UAE.

Not all pilots at EK got three months btw...some got just a few weeks after well in excess of 1 years service....bit like Vbs 'retention bonus' or wtf it's called these days.

About the only difference between VB, J* and QF dom payscales is where overtime kicks in...55 hrs for heros as opposed to 85 odd for the rest. The 55 hr level for heros was put there to induce people to turn their backs on mates.

While you and the likes of Gnadenburg squeel like spoilt children about things which are none of your business (other peoples pay and conditions) good things are happening to those with the gumption to get off their ar$es and improve themselves....like investing in their own careers to their advantage...like it or not being type rated to gain INITIAL employment with many companies has become a world wide trend....I don't like it anymore than you but that's life. Last year I had to get a 767 type rating to get a job I wanted...it was the first multi type rating I've ever paid for out of 12 odd that includes 4 other jets and 4 turboprops...so no I don't consider myself as unemployable trash that had to buy myself a job.

Now the J* and mainline guys are speaking with a united voice (mostly) and word is that will extend to Sunnies and Eastern at some point....all this happening with the agreement of management...sound to you like management want another 89 style fight that nobody wins?

[Gnadenburg]

Chimbu

The conditions at VB are the business of professional pilots in the region because at the moment, surreptitiously, they are affecting negotiations for future payrates.

The low wages and poor perks at VB have resulted in similar, or less, with start ups such as Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Jetconnect and Pacific Blue.

Pilots attempting to hold the line-QF, CX, KA, EK and others face tough times at the table, negotiating improved conditions and pay rates for Australian basings. The tough conditions brought on by what must be the cheapest pilot labour worldwide-Australians.

It is accentuated by Virgin Blue pilots, and possibly yourself ( who the hell has to pay for a 767 endorsement), who use their present employer as a stepping stone to the few jobs left worldwide that offer conditions of old.

This is a General Aviation paradox, paying for your own endorsement and working for low wages as a means to an end. It should not be occuring at an airline level.

Even 89ers shake there head at VB conditions I might add.


Dehav'

There are a lot of Virgin Blue pilots trying to get into Dragonair and Emirates at this very moment. It frustrating that they can not see the damage their present conditions have done to the industry. The short sightedness of paying for a crappy job as a means to get a well paying job; the blissful ignorance of believing the better paid job will still be well paid in a few years time in market conditions THEY created!

Virgin Blue pilot attrition may well be impertinent to my market forces theory as, despite the attempts and flippant beliefs coming out of the Brekky Creek, success rates low. Someone mentioned QF and Easten pilots more successful. A good effort the later, holding the line the Eastern turbo prop guys, not paying for an endorsement as it was not so long ago in Australia.

Success rates for VB pilots may improve if they realise there are some aerodynamic fundamentals in having winglets. They are not there for a Virgin Blue logo or to make their little red, sports car of the sky look any cooler!:p

Aviations biggest bullshi$$ers VB pilots-when talking about their pay rates. Was talking to an VB driver in Dubai who mentioned he sruggled to make 130K and flying near 900 hours.

If you double your DTA, include super and loss of license insurance, aswell as the case of village wine from Branson at XMAS, I suppose VB pilots crawl toward the 150K mark!

[Chimbu chuckles]

People like me pay for a 767 type rating Gnadenburg....people who have been in the unfortunate position of having a very good corporate job end and decided to go back to airline flying. I invested in my future with a job to go to straight after and now earn within a few % of what EK guys do but with a much lower cost of living than is the case in the UAE....and the only sand around is on beaches.

[Karunch]

Dehavilland, you prattle on about your little airline in your little country while drawing comparison to the bigger (but not big) airline in your little country. Take off the blinkers for a while & then pass comment. No doubt you've heard the analogy '10 years at Cx/ Ek equates to 30 years at Qf'- it still holds true. They pay more partially to lure candidates O/s but mainly to get a better standard of applicant. Some experience Os would serve you well, although as we have found (& Iakklat correctly points out), the Vb Captain standard roughly equates to the entry level (Fo or So) standard of most flag and some regional carriers. Times your 150K by 3 and you'll get close to what the better carriers in the region pay for narrowbody captains.
What next Chimbu, pay for your command upgrade or your next instrument renewal, where do you draw the line. Vb started the 'pay for training' rot and it has spread like cancer amongst the less reputable carriers. You are poorer as a result, I cannot see why you defend this rotten system.
Gnadenburg is spot on, it is the domain of all professional pilots to ensure the rot is contained so there is a 'pot of gold' after all the self paid training.

[The Enema Bandit]

Sounds to me that Chimbu might work for Royal Brown Eye.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I don't know of any companies doing that...you arrive type rated and all after is at company expense..as it should be. When I upgrade it will be in the normal fashion, as it will be when the company upgrades the fleet eventually.

Oh and where is this mythical company that pays people who joined post 1993 450K? I have friends at every Asian airline...apart from a few A scalers at CX none are on anything like that money.

So in your opinion what should I have done?

After a very successfull 16 odd years where I progressed in the time honoured fashion from C185 through Bn2,C402,DHC6,E110,Dash7, F28, Bae146, Da200 and then found myself unemployed, for the first time ever, what would you have had me do?

I suppose in your mind I should have just folded my tent and called that a career at 42 hey?

I don't necesarily agree 100% with every aspect of the company I now work fors method of recruitment but failing waiting, possibly indefinately, for a 'classic' employer to recognise my talent I decided to chose this route. I now work for a pretty good company with good standards and a pleasant bunch of fellow employees. I enjoy going to work and am paid reasonably well...no not CX A scale but then that was never going to happen unless I managed to turn back time 10 years.

My package compares favourably with mates at EK with a lower cost of living. Not as much as mates at KA with a dramatically lower cost of living.

I like where I live! There are good schools!It's very safe here for my daughter! We are close to home with a very good staff travel system.

Oh did I mention I'm a single Dad? Somewhat limits my options if I want to actually be a Dad..which I do take great pride in!!

So karunch, please inform me how I should be pursuing my career...please anything that would allow you to sleep well at night will be given due consideration before be consigned to the round file.

EDIT:

Pilots attempting to hold the line-QF, CX, KA, EK and others face tough times at the table, negotiating improved conditions and pay rates for Australian basings.

What on gods green earth leads you to think I give a rat's fundamental orofice.. How many fools who declined employment at CX during the 'employment ban' has the HKAOA actively helped? I'd bet you London to a brick that not one has even passed through the mind of any Office holders!

If you can't negotiate an increase on the merits perhaps it has no merits....no free lunches.

[Metro man]

Paying for your own endorsement started with Southwest Airlines in the states,who required you to have a B737 on your licence before employing you. If you chose to pay for it yourself or get rated in another airline and then join that was up to you.However their pilots seem to be happy and well paid.

Have a look at this thread on Ryan Air http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139912&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

I couldn't believe some of the things that have been forced on their pilots. Once they have got this through they can no doubt pass on some of the savings to the customer who now pays EUR 23 for a flight instead of EUR 25 ,putting pressure on the competition to match the ridiculously low prices.

The disgusting practices of Australian General Aviation seem to be thriving in the airlines now.

This job is getting less and less attractive every day. Financially you are better off getting a job in the resource industry .$100 000 /year not unusual, 4 on /4 off rosters ,good food ,better job security ,far less stress.STRONG UNIONS

Sure some mid 20s captains in Virgin Blue have done very well for themselves ,having paid for a 737 rating ,but where does it all stop ? Get ready to kiss company pension plans goodbye ,pay for your own uniform ,lower and lower standard accommodation ,no job security on your temporary contract.

The desirable jobs in this industry are getting fewer and fewer.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Metro man...for gods sake, go and work in the resource sector then!!!

My career, and my family, and my future is in my hands. There never has been and never will be this mythical overriding group think that a very few sad losers believe will unite (or used to unite) any pilot body into a homogenous union of thought and action. It has never been more complicated than each individual taking his chances on the slippery slope that is any career but particularly aviation.

A successfull career in aviation has always been about equal servings of hard work and luck. Pining for 'the good old days' is just wasted effort.

[Gnadenburg]

Good Oh Chimbu.

Don't be so bitter. There are good jobs out there but they are under siege. That so many pilots are so flippant in paying for endorsements one small factor.

Good luck. The good times will come back but I reckon you were a goose for paying for your endorsement in a bull market. Lucky you didn't lose your job around Sept 11, 2001 eh!

Dehav'

What I get paid means I will never be a threat to your conditions of service- I promise! However, you are a very real threat to my conditions.

Fruitless as it may well be, reminding Virgin Blue pilots of how poor their conditions are, about all I can do to stop your cancer spreading. And don't say it doesn't hurt! I don't add my DTA or company compulsory superannuation contributions to beef up the feel good factor of my Gross Annual Salary!:yuk:

[Chimbu chuckles]

No it was Sept 2002...just in time for SARS... probably the reasons I spent more than 12 months looking unsuccessfully....before biting the bullet and paying for the 767 type rating.

Not bitter Gnadenburg...not in the slightest...pissed off at the selfish attitude of some, but not bitter.

So you and your mate karunch have no suggestions for me?

Really disappointed...I was hoping you could point out where I fecked up chasing jobs, including the one I got, for 15mths while not so slowly losing many of the financial gains I made over the previous years of good money....including a water front house!!

I have a good job now...the pay in Oz$ terms has gone backwards a little due exchange rates and the strong Oz$ but when I make it back to the LHS I'll be making a lot more than any line pilot at VB...difference is I don't think they are a cancer on our industry, just good pilots (mostly, like anywhere) trying there best to do as well as they can for their families and themselves.

This thread has been somewhat hijacked...the bottom line is there are VERY many forces at work in our industry and nothing happening at the moment wasn't happening 10 years ago.

Once upon a time there were relatively few airlines and relatively few airline pilots and people paid a LOT of money to travel. Airlines probably could afford silly payscales in those days. These days there are 10 times as many airlines at least and they can only compete on price in the end because that's all the paying public really care about...unfortunately.

Huge amounts of competition and small margins as a % of capital invested = the way the industry is going. Our only positive is young people are not attracted to our industry the way we were and as a result experienced pilots are becoming a little harder to find....hopefully that will mean a reverse of the trend of the last 10 yrs.

Whatever the stresses your T&Cs might be under are not caused by VB, J* or whomever...they are just a product of the times in which we live.

[Iakklat]

:yuk:

[jetblues]

Just for the record (info available on the net or via AFAP).

DJ Captain basic salary $133080 + $15000 = $148080 Guaranteed and in the bank. Yes the $15000 is not pensionable but still part of basic either way you look at it.

Allowances, superannuation, loss of licence etc etc are extras.

Whats the basic for a QF 737 Captain ? Lets NOT talk overtime here either. Basic only.

Whats the basic for a JS A320 Captain ?

[Icarus2001]

Guaranteed and in the bank. WOW NO INCOME TAX HUH?

Can you provide a link. The AFAP site requires a password and I cannot find the EBA on wagenet.

[jetblues]

Icarus - smart comment. So you find the link yourself !