BA CSD's salary revealed in Daily telegraph

[AndyPandy]

Article here. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2004/10/02/cmcash02.xml&menuId=244&sSheet=/money/2004/10/02/ixperson.html)

You will have to register to view.

[Farrell]

then I 'copied and pasted' the article for all my friends at pprune!! :ok:


Cash clinic: flight director keeps feet on ground over retirement plans
(Filed: 02/10/2004)


Mother wants to maximise savings and provide financial security for her two daughters before giving up work in five years' time, writes Harriet Meyer

With five years to go until she will stop working, Tineke Tilstra, 55, is keen to maximise her savings in time for retirement.

Mrs Tilstra, from Sunningdale, Berkshire, has worked for British Airways as a cabin service director since she arrived in England from Amsterdam, her birthplace, in 1969. She was 20 years old.

Although she can retire now, Mrs Tilstra, a divorcee, enjoys her job so much she has decided to continue working until she is 60. She said: "It is British Airways' policy that flight crew can retire at 55, but a lot don't want to go.

"I have crystalised my final salary pension, which I contributed to for 35 years, and am happy with it as I have been told I can expect to receive £27,000 a year from age 60." However, she still pays £10 a month in additional voluntary contributions [AVCs], which are currently worth £32,000.

She said: "Once I am 60 I will buy an annuity with the AVCs, but I am not sure which one to get." With her savings and state pension entitlement on top of her company pension, Mrs Tilstra is confident she will have enough to provide for a comfortable retirement, although she is keen to be reassured on this point.

Along with sums in various savings accounts, including £25,000 in an ING Direct savings account, in which she deposits £500 a month, Mrs Tilstra has her home to consider. She bought her four-bedroom home for £186,000 in 1994 and, after some improvements, it is now worth around £480,000.

[arfur-sixpence]

Those sort of salaries are no more - the staring salary for a short haul CSD at LGW is more like £15,000 basic plus allowances.

[AndyPandy]

The box halfway down the page, which doesn't cut and paste, is labelled 'Vital Statistics' and shows a salary of £48,000.

And arfu-sixpence of what relevance is a LGW SH STARTING salary?

[dontdoit]

I know for a fact that "basic salary" is only half the story for Heathrow BA Cabin Crew.

Literally.

The other 50% of their take-home being made up in a disgracefully large amount of allowances.

If this Doris is on £48k basic, you can add about the same again in (tax free) allowances, making her total package....

... a disgrace.

(and before the Mathematical Police get on my case, the £27k pension is worked out on basic, allowances not being pensionable, thanks)

[jerrystinger]

48K for serving tea and coffee......any wonder BA is a financial shambles?

[christep]

I must admit I can't remember when I last saw a (Long Haul) BA CSD doing anything as mundane as serving tea & coffee ("I'll get one of my team to bring you some").

I guess they are too busy being "managerial". (or should that be "majesterial"?)

[fire wall]

Knock the girls down a peg or two and then we are next.
Ever heard the saying "a rising tide raises all boats"
For those who find it difficult to think laterally try "think before you open your mouth"

[yachtno1]

To be fair, crystallising your pension can add around 50% to it's value. I feel this girl has put the time into the company, and she is reaping the just rewards. Imagine working for BA for 35 years, she deserves a medal !:ok:

[Devils Advocate]

I'm with fire wall on this. Good luck to her !

[Preppy]

Can anyone explain why Tineka Allum (as she used to be known) decided to reveal all her assets in the Daily Telegraph?

[jerrystinger]

all that "hard" work and worry about future preps and then you die.......

Whoever you are and whatever you do, we all end up a pile of bones six foot under! Reality is hard, ay!

[AndyPandy]

Ever heard the saying "a rising tide raises all boats"

Yup.

Ever heard the expression an overloaded boat sinks and drowns everybody?

I too cannot for the life of me understand why she should want to reveal all but it finally silences the bleating from the CC defenders that they only earn x + allowances and demonstrates how grossly overpaid some of them are.

It would also go some way to explain their arrogance and sense of self-importance.

[Roobarb]

I regularly fly with young pursers who are twice as good for half the money. You’ve got to ask yourself how somebody could get that much money for an equivalent job outside.

It’s a disgrace.

http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb10wee.gif

I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

[HZ123]

Many of BA's staff are of a high quality and commited to Customer Service despite the slanderous comments made by some contributers. BA like most service companies has a wide range of staff with a wide range of attitude. The salaries have been reduced of late and if BA is to survive then ground / flight operations staff will have to forgo pay rises in the future, unless the industry sees a rapid rise in air travel / seat income. I am sure you all agree that the latter is unlikely.

[thegypsy]

I guess if you put " Director" in her job title then no wonder she gets this type of deal. Anyone in BA should be really worried about the long term future of the company with this kind of non sensible pay deal for a member of cabin staff.

[Carnage Matey!]

the staring salary for a short haul CSD at LGW is more like £15,000 basic plus allowances

But there's no such thing as a short haul CSD at LGW. Only pursers to keep the costs down. Now imagine how much we'd save if all the £48K short haul CSDs at LHR were replaced with £15K LGW pursers!

[nicecsd]

it is all a load of c$££p....48K???...probably what the Telegraph paid her to tell porkies..

[crewmeal]

Having started with BOAC in 70's and earning an average of £500 a month, then working through the ranks to CSD and staying loyal to the Company, gaining all the increments then in my view she deserves to earn such a good salary. She is probably on her original BOAC contract and therefore she can work until she is 60.

And if people want to stay with a Company for 30+ years then good luck to them.

I started with BOAC in 1972 and sometimes wished I hadn't left in 1980, perhaps I would have been on the same salary and conditions now instead of my £1 per hour!!!

Allowances by the way are not part of the pension.

[AndyPandy]

then working through the ranks to CSD and staying loyal to the Company, gaining all the increments then in my view she deserves to earn such a good salary.

I am sure in her position I would have done the same. It does rather show why, despite the continual whining and moaning about BA as an employer, relatively few of them leave.

One also has to question how a salary of that level can be justified for somebody who has some SEP training, is good with people (well some are) and serves food and drink!

Although from my observations CSDs do little of the latter.

[Top 10]

Andy Pandy....HERE HERE. On there grossly over-paid salaries it's no wonder they stay until well past their sell-by date ( and of course it's the vastly exaggerated allowances LH c/crew get that really takes the biscuit....+ of course 'not keen to go there' destination payments !!) - but's that's another topic.

[tewkesbury]

This was a topic I kicked off a while ago about how they could justify the difference in salery between an engineer who can take upto to ten years to train to certification, and cabin crew who take six weeks and then can take home more than the engineer with ten years behind him.:confused: :confused: :confused:

Chicken or Beef := :=

[crewmeal]

well past their sell-by date ( and of course it's the vastly exaggerated allowances LH c/crew get that really takes the biscuit....+ of course 'not keen to go there' destination payments !!) - but's that's another topic.


Have you something against 'older' cabin crew??? I detect agism here - also perhaps for once the unions have negociated the various pay scale rises and allowances over the years. I was in another union not so long ago and management would ride 'roughshot' over the crews and they stood back and did nothing.

[faith]

Don'tdoit;

I beg to differ! 4k a month in Allowances-EVERY month??????? I think not!!! Our better paid trips are SIN's and NRT's. A 9day SIN/MEL or SYD will take out 13days inc Days Off.A NRT takes out 8.IF, and a very big IF, you were to do 1 of those 2 trips again in that month, your allowances may be a third of that figure.

And yes, we are taxed on our allowances!!! Her 48k after 35years on an old contract is probably correct -BUT will include allowances as that's how our P60's are formed.It also will mean she flies a lot in that year and will rarely be sick over all the years to sustain a salary like that.

Boy,I hope she does more than pour tea&coffee for that amount!

FYI, LHR cabin crew are better paid (L.haul),because we fly the routes that trigger more overtime. Nowadays we are lucky to see the better paid trips come around once in a blue moon.:ugh:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

This woman is not a criminal - however galling it is to the pilot world, she has been given this money by her employer and did not obtain it dishonestly. You cannot blame her for saying anything else other than 'thanks very much'! These types of salaries are clearly no longer on offer which we all recognise as a good thing. Her package is no more foolish than the old deals on offer to senior BA captains who retire on £75k+ pensions. Nor is is it any more wrong than the many crazy salaries enjoyed by Delta, AA, Cathy Pacific pilots for many years - to name but a few . There is a new realisation in the industry that the 'good old days' are gone, and few would argue with it as they were simply unsupportable economically.

This lady's case is symptomatic of another much bigger problem - countless people including many pilots and cabin crew were historically massively overpaid relative to the income their company was generating. This situation has been further exacerbated by over-generous allowances that in no way reflect what expenses occurred.

Somebody, somewhere must pay the bill for all this - that someone is the passenger and he now has more choice than ever before. The bottom line for any company is that money in must exceed money out. Only once you have established that fact can you then argue about the relative merits of cabin crew, pilots and engineers.

[mr. skinner]

For a start she probably knows how to spell salary :-

More fool the engineers for training for 10 years to earn 30k.

It's like watching dodgy car dealers at the moment at LHR :-

Much sucking of teeth followed by :-

"Can't get the parts chief,can't get the parts"

Good luck to her..... I say

[pushycat]

well, think she is worth every penny, if she has to put up with serving the likes of some of the posters on this forum and their petty avarice. By the way the sums are well out and in fact a CSD approcahing retirement age of 55 who is allowed to chrystalise their pension would be on a basic of at least £35 + depending on how many years they had done and this would also mean that another 20k in allowances/flight pay/ovetime etc;

[sevenforeseven]

I say good luck to the lady and good luck to anybody who can earn a large sum of money for serving tea or coffee.
If BA paid me that I would look at the pay cheque and laugh my head of at the suckers. Anyway BA are now "paying" for it in high operating costs.
Good luck to all the people who,s only crime has been to accept whats been offered. Sit back and enjoy your high pensions and watch BA go under.
Not long left I say(high price of fuel, high cabin crew wages).

[thegypsy]

Is it any wonder BA cannot afford the correct number of check in staff.

With National Insurance and Pension contributions she is probably costing BA around £75000 pa!!

[HZ123]

747 Astute observations and a view shared by many of us within BA dispite that you may read. However I have to say that we have just been voted seventh in the UK best loved brands via 'Marketing' magazine, a periodical that I am sure everyone is familiar with-not.

[sevenforeseven]

HZ123, yes Virgin was voted top!!!!!!!!!!

[TURIN]

MR SKINNER

You are quite right, More fool the engineers for training for 10 years to earn 30k.

Yes, and more fool the engineers for working solidly for 12hrs through all weathers without breaks when YOU are stuck down the line desperate to get home.

Unfortunately, when engineers decide to try and do something about their income, IE industrial action, Pilot's and cabin crew suddenly find 'nil defects' on each flight!!:mad:
Uncanny that isn't it?

When Pilots and CC take IA the airline stops.

Good luck to you all I say but please don't blame engineers for not being very enthusiastic when they can't find the spares!

The problem is not of their making as has been discussed elsewhere on PPRUNE. :ok:

[arfur-sixpence]

quote by AndyPandy-

And arfu-sixpence of what relevance is a LGW SH STARTING salary?

the relevance, Andy, is that although a long serving CSD managed to get this salary as a result of having joined the BA of old, anyone joing now will never make that kind of money adjusted for inflation) as BA have cracked down hard on the salaries for cabin crew in the last few years.

They also, it has to be said, have a large difference in salary between LGW and LHR the latter getting higher rates of pay).

[dicksynormous]

More importantly does she have a daughter and what does she look like.

I think what galls more people than the amount of money is the attitude of some of these older csds who think and are led to believe that the chain of command on the aircraft doesnt apply to then. They see themselves (encouraged by their management and misuse of crm) as co commanders instead of cabin managers answerable to a commander. I think thats whats causing the animosity to this poor woman and her hopefully pretty and available daughters.:}
Failing that 55 isnt over the hill.:E

[jetjockey7]

In her time as an FA/CSD this woman has probably.......
1.Cleaned excrement from toilet floors
2.Been vomitted on
3.Been physically threatened
4.Been verbally abused
5.Discovered a dead pax
6.Dealt with an attempted suicide...Pax/Crewmember
7.Advised a crewmember that a loved one has passed
away.
8.Dealt with medical emergencies..heart attacks,child
birth.
9.Advised a pax that their partner has passed away
inflight
This is more what the life of a crew member is all about.Throw in the safety aspect of the job and she has been underpaid.Not to mention looking after her crew in port.
Coffee and Tea Indeed!!!!

[M.Mouse]

jetjockey7

Do you mean like a policeman?

[TURIN]

.....OR A NURSE?

[Mr Chips]

Good God, the rampant jealousy on this thread is almost sick making. Why do you all have such a problem with what someone else gets paid?

You all do a job. Are you paid wenough in that job to keep you doing it? Clearly the answer is yes, so quit harping on about how much CSDs earn

Sheesh

Chips

[AndyPandy]

the rampant jealousy on this thread is almost sick making

I am not jealous just sick to death of being told what a mess we are in financially, that we all have to cut more costs and yet we see a bunch of glorified prima donnas walking off the aircraft stranding passengers overnight, when they get to the minute of their industrial agreements, yet being overpaid at rates that many far more able and competent people can only dream of.

[bjcc]

jetjockey7

I was a Policeman, paid less than this lady and many of the things that you list I dealt with on a shift basis plus a great many other unpleasent things, never mind during a career. Added to which I had to make decisions at the age of 19 that are bigger than she will ever make. So yes I do think she is over paid.

As regards to is that the norm, well my daughters mother is a purser with BA, according to the Child Support Agency the amount she gets paid (for 50% part time) is not far short of what I get now for full time.

[dicksynormous]

What does CSD stand for anyway.

Chief Sandwich Dispenser?

Completely Spoilt Dinosaur?

Collecting Serious Dosh?

Certainly not cabin service anything if the standard of ba cabin services ex lhr (specifically) is anything to go by. If you can get them to stay on board before departure they throw the food at you and head for the rest area,have an unnofficial policy of ignoring a call bell that rings more than once(insider info), quote health and safety or company policy when asked to fulfill any random occasional unusual requests, give new meanings to patronising and condescending and generally cant be arsed with anything except their BLRs.
A generalisation it is , but isnt that what publics (that i have spoken to) perception is. Every one of the above bar the unusual request happened to me on a recent lhr longhaul flight, both sectors. It was the same 10 years ago when i last used them as well.That palce needs an enema

I much prefer a virgin

[frangatang]

They dont call them Chief Sandwich Dispensers for nothing!
Consider this as well.The 744 has bunks and those bunks will be used by the cabin crew regardless of length of flight eg. lhr-cairo.
What really smells is that they have the cheek to ask the pilots for the use of their bunks when they are 2 crew! And you are quite right,they will be off that aircraft as quick as saying jack s**t. They do not clean up the aircraft during the night either,it looks like a bomb site on arrival,unlike singapore airlines.

[jetjockey7]

A CSD is........
Like a
Policeman
Nurse
Grief Counsellor
Para Medic
Referee
Crowd Controller
Team Leader
General Manager
Empathiser
Sympathiser
Toilet Cleaner
Firefighter,safety professional.........and So On
All without the back up and facilities available to all of the above.
In my youth I was police officer working my A off to get a commercial pilots licence.I flew as an FA (flight Attendant) for 3 years and now have a command.
The most underpaid and villified....being a cop.
The most satisfying being an FA
With whats available on the flight deck these days....the least stressful and best renumerated....Being a Captain.
Life is not always fair.Those that deserve the high income don`t always receive it.A quirk in history sometimes means some receive a higher wage than many for appearing to do something simple and glamorous.Walk a mile in someone else`s mocassins before being critical.(and covetous)

[jerrystinger]

Please do not compare cabin crew to 'policemen', 'nurses', 'para medics', 'firefighters' etc as their job has no comparison whatsoever!
As for the topic as a whole, it raises the whole issue of overpaid airline employees in general....and it's ironic how some on this forum are totally against cabin crew getting overgenerous renumeration while it's ok for them to receive it! Kettle + black + pot = .......

[mach2male]

Amongst the ranks of Cabin Crew you do in fact have policemen,firefighters,nurses, teachers etc.In greater numbers than you are obviously aware.

[Carnage Matey!]

Indeed and all the ones I've spoken to know which is the easier and better paid job.

[argusmoon]

Harder in some ways,easier in others.Definitely better paid.So what?All occupations are paid differently dependant on the industry norm.People here seem to begrudge crew their wage.If its so good then everyone should apply for the position and stopping slagging off at them.

[Finals19]

Certainly not cabin service anything if the standard of ba cabin services ex lhr (specifically) is anything to go by. If you can get them to stay on board before departure they throw the food at you and head for the rest area,have an unnofficial policy of ignoring a call bell that rings more than once(insider info), quote health and safety or company policy when asked to fulfill any random occasional unusual requests, give new meanings to patronising and condescending and generally cant be arsed with anything except their BLRs

Dicksyenormous - on what authority do you make such a sweeping generalisation???? One or two perceivably negative experiences and you throw in the boot like this?

I am sorry to say that this whole thread comes across as ridiculous to the extreme and smacks of very bitter people who are more preoccupied with what others are getting but have little to say about their own (also very generous?) salaries. If BA CSD's have worked 20-25 years plus and earn a decent crust, then good luck to them - as someone else pointed out on here, some of the crap that they have undoubtedly had to put up with in their time is more than a lot of people would even contemplate.

As for Prima Donna's, their existence is mutually exclusive both sides of the flight deck door - and this is from first hand experience, believe me.

If only people would direct all this energy into a more positive or worthwhile argument............:confused:

[Eddy]

Afur-sixpence, you said "They also, it has to be said, have a large difference in salary between LGW and LHR the latter getting higher rates of pay)." And while you're kinda right, there is reasoning behind it.

Heathrow is a far more senior base than Gatwick. People working on Heathrow Worldwide have been with the company for a long time and many of them joined in the days of the "old contract" where the basic was far higher than it is today.

Gatwick has had exactly the same number of "higher" basic earners, but most have moved up to Heathrow.

The allowance structure is very fair. If it's expensive somewhere, you're paid more to go there. If it's cheap somewhere, you're paid less.

I also can't believe the number of people on this thread complaining about the amount of money we earn. What's it got to do with you?

There are lots of places for the company to look to save money - it's just easier to go straight for salaries.

It's not unreasonable for someone who has given 30+ years to this company to expect a salary like this CSD is earning.

[eng1170]

well....................








..............nah no point, is there? A licensed engineer earning 30-35k is greedy when the tech's he oversee's and countersign's work for are earning £2-3 a week less than them, and some tech's are earning MORE than some LAE's!!! Yes it's happening, but why?

Then you read this thread............something's not right at all and something needs sorted with the way the pay system works.

I have the greatest respect for Cabin Crew and know alot of them, this lady is very lucky indeed and obviously looks after her saving's and investment's. However disgusted some of you all are she does not deserve the abuse dealt out in this thread by certain members.

Eng

[jerrystinger]

I don't think people begrudge anyone a good salary, but the whole point is on what grounds is it justified against what is an unskilled job! And the role of CSD is another superficial level of "management"(i.e managing the IFE switch!) that only BA can invent since 99% of airlines have senior pursers of the day in charge of flights, doing the job perfectly well!

From my experience the BA CSD walks up and down First and Club trying to impose themselves on pax! What makes CSDs believe that Mr X in 1A is in the slightest bit interested in chitchatting to the incharge tea lady/boy?

BA's global position as a "financial shambles" (without mentioning the pension deficit!) is the result of these layers and layers of redundant management roles......sorry, the word is "executives"! Tea and coffee executives.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Cruel but fair Jerry, cruel but fair.....................

[Notso Fantastic]

I have to admit there is a point there! Wow- this thread is going to run and run.....

[dicksynormous]

Finals,

I make the sweeping generalisation based on extensive travel with ba in the past , revisited recently (even worse) and extensive intimate relations with a long serving cabin crew member ( who doesnt have an axe to grind but works out of lhr regularly as well as other bases). Also I have two relatives who work on the flight deck at lhr, so a fairly balanced cross section of crew and pax wouldnt you say. Oh and a very well to do good friend , terribly british, travels extensively on longhaul who wont go near them for the same reasons. They would travel by donkey first.

Only those in the self perpetuating cabin organisation at all levels at lhr dont see what a poor product it is in terms of service, attitude, and a classic case of the pax are just something to putup with before the allowances are paid, not the reason you have a job.

Like i said it needs an enema

[thegypsy]

I don't think most people are having a go at the lady in question but merely expressing incredulity that BA have got themselves into the position of paying such a grossly over the top Salary and Allowances to a member of Cabin Staff regardless of how many years in the job. BA just cannot survive if this is the Norm.

No doubt new contracts are more sensible but I guess that in most peoples opinions BA Cabin crew are still overpaid in the main. It might be a tiring job at times but hardly that demanding on the Brain or Brawn.

[Firestorm]

If only BALPA had a bit of spine, and would actually help pilots to maintain ts and cs! Maybe I'll chop my ATPL and go Cabin Crew.....

[pilotsean]

If only BALPA had a bit of spine, and would actually help pilots to maintain ts and cs! Maybe I'll chop my ATPL and go Cabin Crew.....

yeah, right on brother, those bloody BALPA are always trying to ruin the fun for us real pilots

[Notso Fantastic]

Oh Wow! Now BALPA's getting mud slung at it! This is most entertaining.
As an employee of said organisation, I find it very difficult to take issue with the points just raised by the Gypsy with the EnormousDick! Jolly entertaining stuff though!

One can only express complete astonishment that an organisation can value its cabin crew more than its pilots (and pay them accordingly), but this is the same organisation that introduces a new engineering spares system in August and ruins its good name through not employing enough low paid staff in the critical areas for the critical period (then doesn't have anybody's guts for it). Yes, for want of a 100 or so people, the operation at main base almost ground to a complete halt. And now 1000 services are chopped to Christmas. One can only express admiration.

[lexxity]

Now, about this CSDs salary, she will obviously be on the "old contract" as it is known. So are a lot of senior ground staff, ie have been their forever and a day.

BA cannot get rid of these kinds of contracts as the terms of leaving (on the ground) means you lose your pension and who is going to do that? The only option, and the staff know this, is redundancy and that does not make for good headlines, which is something they can seriously do without.

About the situation when LHR stopped: If I, hypothetically, started at BA now, i would be offered a rolling six month temporary contract, therefore never getting concessions as my date of joining would roll every six months and management wonders why LHR ground to a halt? Wages on the ground these days are abysmal, it's only the concessions that keep us there and some nice now routes every so often!
:E

[YYC F/A]

I don't think people begrudge anyone a good salary, but the whole point is on what grounds is it justified against what is an unskilled job!


What makes CSDs believe that Mr X in 1A is in the slightest bit interested in chitchatting to the incharge tea lady/boy?

And so here we go again. A (very) small percentile of long serving staff whom have over the (many) years been fortunate enough to benefit from succesive pay deals. Reality is that these people make up an increasingly smaller percentile of the BA Cabin Crew workforce. With more poeple retiring literally every day, the holes are being replaced from the bottom up with crew on new contracts (with basic pay of just 9k a year). Oh, but don't forget those 4k a month allowances people cry! Sorry, my projected allowances this month, at about 500pound, will mean I'll be lucky to clear 1100 for a full months' work. Am I complaining? No. Just (yet again) trying to dispel the myth that all BA Cabin Crew are living in 450,000 pound luxury homes taking home 4, 5 of 6k a month.

And we've already covered (ad nauseum) the 'unskilled' job topic, suffice to say that whilst Cabin Crew does not require the same technical degrees or expertise (and skill) as say, an engineer, the role demands different 'skills'. Being able to deal with an ever demanding general public, maintaining a great cabin service whilst dealing with often difficult situations with little or no outside help...

Our skills might not be as 'on paper defined' as an engineer. But a good crewmember who can diffuse the most difficult and stressful of situations with a win win result for all involved, is most certainly drawing upon a wide range of 'skills'.

The success or otherwise of airlines depends on no small part on the experience customers have on board... especially on long haul journeys. Some airlines are renowned for better cabin service than others... could it be that this is because of the attitude, demeanour and skill of the differing cabin staff?


Jerrystinger... are you a pilot? If so, I pity the 'Tea Girls and Tea Boys' that have to work with you on your flights... I can only imagine that your obvious hang ups and the apparent need to belittle the role of your co-workers in the back can hardly contribute to a good team rapport... So whilst on the subject of skills, maybe you might want to hone your CRM skills...?

[OzzieO]

I'd like to have my say on the subject of cabin crew being unskilled and overpaid.

Many years ago (approx 16) I checked in to work a flight from LHR to BFS. I was the Flight Service Manager on that particular flight.

Shortly after take off there was an engine problem which resulted in the skipper making a diversion to EMA.

The engine problem was in fact one of the fan blades breaking off and getting sucked into the engine which resulted in the engine having to be shut down because of the damage that was caused.

The aircraft started to vibrate badly and the 126 passengers onboard were starting to panic. Including myself there were 6 cabin crew. We really had out work cut out for us in trying to keep everyone calm, collect in meal trays and secure the cabin. I took it upon myself to tell the crew to prepare the cabin for a emergency landing (ie absolutly no baggage on the floors etc) even though at this stage it was just a diversion.

The crew were fantastic, all remained calm and kept everyone else calm.

I think anyone that has been around a while may remember the outcome. We crash landed on the M1 motorway and the aircraft broke into 3 parts with the loss of 47 lives.

Please do not refer to cabin crew as over paid glorified waiting staff. I know and appreciate what happened to me was the exception, these incidents don't happen every day, but it did happen and it did happen to me.

Even to this day I can still re-call people screaming for help after the impact & the sight of dead bodies.

Lets all treat each other with a little bit of respect - its really not that much to ask for is it?

[dicksynormous]

i,ve done alot them but I dont think i've slagged off cabin crew in general,but it is a case of the tail wagging the dog, time the dog got a grip or as pax we get value for the money we pay for tickets and the company gets value for the money it pays them. people harping on about length of service etc.etc. Well they are then by definition the attitude forming influential senior service directors and the service is crap ex lhr...go figure.

I must say i do like the new uniform, doing wonders for my inter company relations.:mad:

[WeLieInTheShadows]

OzzieO......I don't think you can follow your post.....unfortunately dicksynormous has and in the process made himself out to be the idiot he really is.

Both me and my girlfriend are CC for BA and have just read your post. I have to say our heart has gone out to you and the fact that you still get on an aircraft shows your strength of character after such an event.

It is however something that we as CC are trained to deal with and our primary reason that we are on the aircraft at all is to save pax should an emergency situation arise, not to look good in a uniform or to serve tea or coffee etc etc etc as so many on here think that is what we do.

I'm sure Easy or Ryan would do away with CC all together if they could to cut costs but we are there for a reason, for those few terrible terrifying times when things do go wrong. When the pilots are doing their thing...we are doing ours...and I'm not talking about walking through the cabin with the shopping the world trolley!!!

In an emergency situation it has been proved that survival of pax depends largely on the effectiveness of the CC (and of course the pilots doing their jobs) to perform their tasks and duties and to calm pax and ensure all that can be done is done, before and after an incident.

This will happen only if the PSR or CSD is calm, stays in control and ensures we as crew remain calm and in control and remember and carry out our drills.

God forbid anything like the events OzzieO describes ever happens to me or mine and every flight goes by the numbers and everyone gets their tea and coffee and leaves the aircraft safe and sound.

But in the few incidences when I or my gf have had to deal with medical events or SEP situations, the pax have been more than grateful for our presence and professionalism and have realised there are times when we more than earn our wages.

Finally...once again...OzzieO. You are a true hero to have done what you did...made it through...and then got back on an aircraft. I think you have silenced a lot of people on here and given people another view on our "easy" career choice.

Interesting how the flow of posts suddenly stopped as well......

Safe flying to all.

[overstress]

No-one would deny that Kegworth was a defining moment in aviation history. However the thread is about CSD's salary, so I will resume the flow of postings.

The point made by the poster above reinforces the reason that cc are on board, it is for the safety of the pax. Anything else is a bonus. So in the light of that, salaries at BA's level are unsustainably high. They should be compared to the market rate. The average BA cc costs the company approx 10k per annum more than the next nearest employer (My Travel). (Source: CAA website) There are very few airlines in which cc consider they might have a 30yr career, cabin crew is seen as a short-term, low-paid option (similar to the catering trade) for a few years that people choose for other reasons than salary. After a while, reality bites and female cc get married then pregnant, then leave the job permanently.

This whole thread is based on the premise that at BA, this argument is not the case and cc in many instances are being paid more than the far more highly qualified pilots.

All this talk of deserving the money for having years of abuse thrown at them ignores the fact that in most other companies there are very few cc over the age of 30.

(steps back with fingers in ears)

PS: for those about to flame me I am just off on leave for 2 weeks to a place far from the internet so save your fingers

[dicksynormous]

we lie in the shadows.
My post had nothing to do with the preceeding one.
This post is not about kegworth.
You are entitled to your cuddly woolly opinions and i to my more black and white ones. I'll be clear for you : My beef is about lhr standards, the lack of leading from the front and the ridiculous money paid to not lead, not cabin crew in general.

I dont know if you both are idiots or not so i wont comment , unlike you.

[Eddy]

BANG OR WEST said :
How can you justify "Destination Payments" for such undesireable parts of the world like the hellholes (not) of Seattle, Miami and the countless other places where the Cabin Crew get a ridiculous extra payment for, er, doing their job.

I think you'll find that the Destination Payments aren't paid to people because they are working to undesireable places, but because they are working on particularly difficult flights.

All of the "Two Class" routes at Gatwick get the Destination Payment because you're dealing with twice as many passengers as normal (that's Orlando - a fab place, Tampa - a fab place and Kingston - a fab place).

Over at Heathrow, the payments are awarded to things like Denver and Seattle because the flight times are long, the time changes are significant and the stop is only for one night where crew operating to LAX and SFO get two nights (I believe).

It's not about the place we're flying to, it's about the flight itself. A misleading name, perhaps, but still something the crew deserve.

ALSO, I'm going to make the assumption that you're ground crew here because of your knowledge of our payment structure and the fact that you're soooo anti-destination payment (as ground crew famously are); why do you get a free pair of Hotline tickets for "just doing your job"???? You are employed to deal with the good times and the bad and the company shouldn't have to throw a couple of free tickets at you to ensure your continued loyalty.

[maxy101]

Hmm...It would be interesting to get a critical view from an outsider regarding this thread. I should imagine they would be shaking their heads in disbelief.

[AndyPandy]

I think you'll find that the Destination Payments aren't paid to people because they are working to undesireable places, but because they are working on particularly difficult flights.

Yeah, right!

Such stress and difficulty. Give me strength.

[towerview]

Well it does seem amazing to me that the salaries can prompt so much discussion. One would have thought that the BA system would be much more transparent and that, if the estimates are true, the reaction from other crew would be 'so what'.

[Dr Dave]

To put an alternative slant on this discussion, here are a few pay scales for other professions with high levels of training and responsibility (NB excludes overtime pay, out of hours pay etc):

Senior House Officer (hospital doctor): £24,587 - £34,477
Fire fighter (5 years experience): £23,175
University lecturer with PhD age 30: £23,643
Police Officer (5 years experience): £24,852
Teacher (5 years experience): £25,137

Pretty undeniable that the CSD is getting a rather generous and unsustainable package, surely?

Dr Dave

[Eddy]

AndyPandy : Ever the voice of reason and maturity!!

Thanks for the input, AP. Have you ever worked one of these flights? If you're cabin crew with the company, I can't imagine you ever complaining about getting £XXX for flying to these destinations. If you're not crew with BA, I wouldn't imagine that you've operated on any of these routes (Seattle/Denver/Tampa to London) as we're the only carrier to do it.

The crew (on the SEA and DEN) have to endure long flights with only about 20 hours downroute (a few hours of which is spent getting to and from the airports) and major time changes. They deserve a little extra for it.

It would be nice if you would divulge what YOU do for a living. Are you cabin crew? Flight crew? Cabin crew with another carrier? A wannabee who has been rejected by British Airways in the past and is therefore bitter about what we earn?

If you don't work for the company, it shouldn't be a concern to you how much money the crew with BA take home at the end of the month.

There are lots of posts above saying that we're overpaid but just think; the crew who carried out a full-scale evacuation in Houston a month or so back earned their money ten-times-over. Ain't anybody who can deny that. We're not overpaid, we're just fairly well paid. Go to any of the people who were on that Houston flight and tell them that they are overpaid and I guarantee you, you'll gat a slap across the chops and a kick in the goolies as a thank-you.

[Notso Fantastic]

Pretty undeniable that the CSD is getting a rather generous and unsustainable package, surely?

Fair comment. It would be interesting to compare competitors remuneration for a similar job. What, one wonders, would a Virgin IFD or cabin crew earn in comparison, do they get 'destination payments' for operating 747s with seating capacity that has not been restricted by additional premium seating- some BA 747s only seat 259 passengers. People are shocked at cabin crew old contract payments and wonder whether it is sustainable to BA if they are paying thousands of cabin crew on old contracts. A real comparison has to be made with KLM, Air France, LH cabin crew- they are BA's main competitors. Comparing an old contract CSD to Hospital Doctors, University Professors, Teachers does cause a gulp. Comparing it to senior copilot pay in BA causes astonishment.

[AndyPandy]

It would be nice if you would divulge what YOU do for a living. Are you cabin crew? Flight crew? Cabin crew with another carrier? A wannabee who has been rejected by British Airways in the past and is therefore bitter about what we earn?

Of no real relevance but as you ask, 3 years as cabin crew and around 8 as flight crew.

Now let me see... Denver is around 10 hours flying time, so that will be about 2:30 each in the bunks then only 20 hours off before doing the same again back home.

Yup, seems horrendously gruelling to me.

[YYC F/A]

What's done is done.... These contracts and pay agreements were signed many years ago, in a different era, a pre-911 era and a pre low cost era.

A land in the sand has been drawn by BA.

And you'll find now that crew (like myself) on the new contract are earning not a dissimilar amount to other carriers...

My 1100 take home this month is most certainly *NOT* 10k a year higher than the next highest paid cabin crew. It is also lower than the salary of most of those other 'comparitive' jobs posted earlier.

So whilst you can't take back what is done, BA can and will focus on lowering costs for the future...

And as these people fizzle out of the system (resignations, retirements, etc), then the cost base will continue to fall... and the Senior FO's can breathe a sigh of relief yet again that the average Cabin Crew wage will be well below their own.

This is the BA of now... whilst BA can search for efficiencies in operating allowances, in crew complement, in working agreements to minimise the cost of those on such salaries... for those of us who've joined in the last 5 years and for all the swathe of new recruits, BA is getting us at a rate very close to the Cabin Crew national average.

Something that those on here who like to shout and scream to bring attention to overpaid salaries might like to consider...

[Hot Wings]

BA has about 14,500 cabin crew. Only 40% are on the new contract - the rest are all on the old contract and bleeding the airline dry!

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Well you'll all be pleased to know that the CSD grade will no longer exist at LGW. By 2006 BA LGW will be a mid fleet as far a CC are concerned on the EF LGW contract - already on hourly rate. There will be no more CSD grade and flights will be taken our by the most senior of the two Pursers that will be on board on the day.

I hope that makes a lot of you happy.

It does seem a lot of sour grapes are being aired on here, I'm sure if I was a pilot that was getting paid less than if I'd joined BA and become a CSD who is now getting more than I am I would be pissed off to some degree as well Het...I might even wish I'd applied to be CC myself instead of becoming a pilot. However hind sight is a wonderful thing and I can assure you that BA post JAN 97 (cabin crew stike) contracts are far less lucrative for us.

If you as a person joined a company to do a job that you love and found that you were getting paid a awesome wage... and eventually if they stayed long term...got paid even more!...wouldn't you stay?

If I remember rightly some pilots who trained on the cadetship before the gulf war errupted were redirected and trained as CC until there was a requirement for more pilots. Also if I remeber rightly a small number of these people decided not resume their careers as pilots and carry on as CC.

You can't blame anyone for getting paid what their contract says they should get paid when they signed it. It's not their fault, and there is no way that the company can ask them to get paid less (in their basic anyway). So don't begrudge these long serving people what they have now just because they stayed the course or saw a great oppotunity. Move on... and get off the cross!!! We need the wood!!!

If any pilot or civvy really thinks that post Jan 97 BA CC get paid too much then they are more than welcome to give up their career and come join our ranks.

Basic is £9200 plus allowances and benefits and I look forward to training you.:ok:

[maxy101]

Welieintheshadows If any pilot or civvy really thinks that post Jan 97 BA CC get paid too much then they are more than welcome to give up their career and come join our ranks.
I´m sure I misunderstand you here...but I´d hate to equate what CC and BA pilots do to be equal to the troops serving out in Iraq or wherever....most of whom are on a lot less than the CSD in question.

[normal_nigel]

I posted a link to BA cabin crew salaries while ago. The link has since been removed.

Someone called "Golden Runways" was so incensed by the publication of these outrageous salaries that they wrote to Danny and threatened to report me to BA (assuming that the website was mine-DOH). Danny quite rightly put them right.

They complained as follows. Ashamed are they?

But beware this person is a BA snitch.



This post is very aggressive. I will also check with British Airways to see if normal_nigel aka xxxxx has breached confidentiality rules by posting these internal documents. Do you believe the post and links to be appropriate? Thank you for your time in dealing with this matter. I will wait until 1630 before contacting BA.


NN

[Notso Fantastic]

Oh the claws are out on this one! Love it!

Just to toss a bit of fuel onto the fire, currently running on the BA BALPA forum is a thread of 'pilots who have been sent the wrong payslip to their home address'. One advises he got a LHR Purser' payslip, and most ungentlemanly spilled the beans- she got a shade under £3k takehome, and more than his goodself. Gross that up and you don't need to be a BA CSD, Purser will do nicely thankyou! Gross that up with Pension/tax added and you have got one amazing payment for cabin services- 3 weeks training and off you go!

[newt]

you sound like a company man HZ123???

[Notso Fantastic]

... for those of us who've joined in the last 5 years and for all the swathe of new recruits, BA is getting us at a rate very close to the Cabin Crew national average.

What hasn't been mentioned here is of interest itself. A lot has been made in this thread that BA new entrant Cabin Crew are on new lower contracts. Nobody has actually said that after so many years (not that many), their basic pay rate rises to match the famous old contract pay levels that we have come to see since last Saturday- ie they will all eventually be on this sort of money. It is only a temporary alleviation.

Including other costs and grossing up, the cost of employing a BA cabin crew member is now averaging roughly double the cost of a Virgin cabin crew member's employment costs. There are 13,000+ BA cabin crew employees.

[Eddy]

AndyPandy -

Now you're arguing against yourself. You are employed to deal with the good times and the bad, as you said.

Um, no I'm not. The destination payments aren't a reward for flying to certain destinations. A reward is a one-off or somewhat ad-hoc benefit that you're given. The destination payments are a salaried allowance for operating on a certain route.

There is a huge difference.

The Hotline tickets WERE a reward. A one-off, ad-hoc gift to say "thanks" for dealing with the hard times. Hard times that, if I may be so bold as to say, I feel a very small minority of the ground crew brought on themselves.

Very odd, wasn't it, that there is a sudden TWO DAY staff shortage (that hit the headlines) only a day or two after the unions accepted an offer from British Airways that had previously been turned down? It's speculated that un-official striking caused the problems that the staff are now being rewarded for dealing with.

I have the utmost respect for my colleauges on the ground but don't feel that the best way of the company sorting a staff-shortage crisis is to send the staff on a free holiday.

I'm not here to argue with you, Andy.

Also, there is a post above about a flight crew member being sent a Purser's pay slip. Let's just say that the same has happened in reverse. A member of cabin crew has been sent a member of flight crew's pay slip.

The flight crew member takes one in one month (with allowances/hourly rates etc) just short of my annual basic. I'm not saying that they don't deserve it - I personally feel that they do - I'm just saying that if you're going to have a go at cabin crew for earning too much (which we don't), you shouldn't just stop there.

[HOVIS]

Eddy
Hard times that, if I may be so bold as to say, I feel a very small minority of the ground crew brought on themselves.

Not quite the truth there sunshine...

The hard times were brought on by 3 aircraft having to be made u/s when the CAA refused to let them fly! Blame EWS for that.(Also the standby aircraft got driven into the hangar docking and badly damaged, but that's another story)
The result was 1000 pax dumped in the terminals and very little the ground staff could do about it. The knock-on effect was horrendous and we all read about it in the press.

To be fair to the ground staff at LHR, they deserve a thankyou.

Where it all falls down is that everyone in the airline got the hotline tickets no matter where they worked. MAN,GLA etc.

Except the engineers of course, as usual they got *uck all!

But there again the engineering director stood up and said "blame me" so that seems fair doesn't it?:mad:

Back to the thread.

I can't blame a CSD for getting a big wedge every month, I would be doing the same if I got half a chance.

However, I can blame BA for letting the unskilled staff get massive incremental pay rises over the years and ensuring that they lost the skilled staff to better paying airlines.

[YYC F/A]

What hasn't been mentioned here is of interest itself. A lot has been made in this thread that BA new entrant Cabin Crew are on new lower contracts. Nobody has actually said that after so many years (not that many), their basic pay rate rises to match the famous old contract pay levels that we have come to see since last Saturday- ie they will all eventually be on this sort of money. It is only a temporary alleviation.

Actually, that's incorrect. Without being smug, I can tell you now that new contracters do NOT suddenly (be it in not that many or a very many years!) go onto old contract rates. I'll eventually get a slight rise be fixed at around 10k and some change a year + any standard cost of living increases that are negotiated across the airline.

So as you see, it's not a temporary alleaviation after all...

[Notso Fantastic]

I recall conversations about the New Cabin Crew rates where it was admitted that eventually (somewhere between 12-16 years?) they would rise to match old contract rates. I shall ask around.
There is an enthralled conversation going on in the BA BALPA forum. Pilots cannot believe what is happening. Try this:
One pilot compares pay for hours flown... c/crew rostering practices (minimum 3 day mbtr etc) means that l/haul c/crew fly appx 500hrs per annum so now when you divide that 60k csd earnings and compare with the 90k (but 850hr) pay point 14 l/haul skipper guess who's on the better hourly rate....and has a better homelife, more inflight rest?. He goes on: the F/O last trip had a chat with the club purser who confessed to taking home £6k recently (by his own admission a 'rare' one off - but how many pilots under pp15 can match that even as a one off?
Similarly the other F/O has a purser wife who is 50% part time so if she is rostered a trip that returns on day 28 her first rostered item is...... 3 days MBTR

There we have it- £6k in one month for a cabin attendant......any advances? Hurry up, BA can't stay in business much longer at these rates!

[FunctionedSatis]

£48000, i wish i was near this, all i do is fix BA's aircraft and certifiy work for futher flight. Sign my name a few times a day. So ill never be worth this ammount of money.

Hovis: were getting the Hotline Tickets too im glad to say now.


:hmm: :(

[HOVIS]

LHR may well be getting them but no other station within Engineering will be.

Unlike dispatch, check in, Didsbury call center etc.:mad:

Message to BA management...

If you are going to offer an incentive to staff that "go the extra mile" make sure it is them and ONLY them that receive it, idiots!!!

[terrain_pull_up]

Take with a pinch of salt the salary figure mentioned in the newspaper.

As this article and the one my BA cabin crew girlfriend did a few years ago are subject to a REVIEW by BA before publication.
The salary mentioned in my girlfriends article was increased
to make the job more attractive to potential new recruits reading it!

[AndyPandy]

Nice try.

Since when have newspapers given editorial control to private companies in order to allow them to distort the facts?

[captcat]

I don't have an answer to this question, but somehow according to the newspapers I am making a lot more than what I get on my payslip :*