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roland rat
7th Aug 2001, 04:56
Having recently been to easyland,bewarned this is a very professional outfit,however my sim check was carried out in a 737 fixed sim in SOH 11 hours after the aptitude tests and a 4 hour drive.The sim was conducted by an EX BA skippper who couldn't even speak the queens english!! Haveing carried out the various tests, I was informed that I would not be offered a contract.
I do except that the sim check was less than perfect but I would like to see this SOB would fly my current type on raw data without a breif and haveing never flown the relevant type or sim before.
This gentleman or ladies is why I have never and will never apply to BA.
And to the ATP acadmey why do you employ these has beens!!
To the recruitment staff at easy, thank you for a great day and I sincerely wish you all the best.PGH
:cool: :)

[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: roland rat ]

stator vane
7th Aug 2001, 08:02
don't feel alone.

i have had more turn downs than acceptances.

one thing that helps me cope is remembering that even someone like thomas edison reminded those who admired his inventions that he had more failures than successes.

and if he did, certainly must i.

and just like you, i have been surprized at the "professionalism" i have encountered in this industry. there again, the only real meaning for that word is; they will swear by what they do!!!!

Manflex55
7th Aug 2001, 14:27
rr,

I understand your anger, however I see some positive things in this.
Nr 1 U got "invited" to EZ land, which is not so bad considering the nr of candidates out there. That means airlines ARE interested in U !!
Nr 2 U got a sim session "free of charge". Another good experience for the next recruitment schemes U'll attend.

Are U sure U failed due to your performance in the sim, or could it B something else ? In most sim sessions, "instructors" do not expect U to fly the a/c to perfection, especially when U've never flown it before. What they expect, however, is good airmanship, good scan & good CRM.

One last thing, most airlines look for a particular profile. U might B the best pilot around & still not get the job, because there's something else they want. On the other hand, I've seen people being hired despite a really poor performance in the sim (busting altitudes, landing @ Vref +50, etc).

Your skills may play an important part in the process, but personality & luck certainly have their role as well.

Good luck for the next one. ;)

MF

LabyrinthMan
7th Aug 2001, 14:38
or maybe it was the fact that you, yourself, are challenged by the queen's english: the proper word is "accept", not "except" in the context you used... ;)

twintowers
7th Aug 2001, 15:36
Oh dear, the sad, sad smell of sour grapes...

Tug
7th Aug 2001, 15:54
When I went for my turn at the sim I found the two guys running it down there to be extremely helpful, polite and patient. And I came away still with the same opinion despite not flying it nearly as well as I normally do on the line. They were gentlemen from the old school and I wish all sim guys showed the same willingness for the job as these two boys did.

roland rat
7th Aug 2001, 17:17
MF, Stator thank you for your constructive comments,the failure to be offered a contract was a direct result of the sim ride.A a collegue also in the sim at the same time was not offered a position either.
I am at the moment employed as a Cpt on medium jet aircraft and although obviously disapionted not to be joining eJ I am very happy with my current employer.
Again to all at eJ Good Luck.

[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: roland rat ]

kippa
7th Aug 2001, 17:51
RR..."This Gentlemen or Ladies is why I have never and will never apply to BA"

Let me get this straight, you won't apply to BA because you failed an Easy Jet sim ride???

The bitter smell of sour grapes....


:cool:

homer j
7th Aug 2001, 18:02
As my old English teacher used to say, "Disappear, disappoint, one 'S' two 'P's"....

"People in glass houses".....

All that said, don't be too upset, there are plenty of other employers out there. Very best of luck with your endeavour.

iflyboeing747
7th Aug 2001, 19:32
As some of you guys have pointed out it's indeed not only your skills behind the control wheel which will equip you with a "passed" rubber stamp on the forehead..
It is certainly also your decision making, how you interact and your general attitude towards job and life in general.

No employer wants people who "smell" of problems.. (I'm not hinting towards this forum starter - but just speaking in general). That's not only within the aviation industry. It's just how it is..

Have a nice day - all..

Loony_Pilot
7th Aug 2001, 23:21
what was the Training Captains name who did your sim session...

I have a funny feeling i know who you mean.. LP

rhythm method
8th Aug 2001, 01:04
RR,

Got to agree with you. Know of 2 guys recently taken for a ride (sorry I mean a sim session) with the crowd at SOU. Ex-B.A. captain running the session was less than courteous (not even a good morning or thankyou) and as with you, virtually no time to study the sim facts and figures having only arrived from LTN late the previous evening. In your defence, they also didn't make 'his grade'. Don't know what your CRM is like but surely the sim is only to view your flying ability not view your interpersonal skills. The group session in the interview stage is to assess that. Perhaps the team at EZY should look again at this sim and it's instructors. The guys I know are excellent operators with great CRM ability and technique.

All the best for the future, perhaps EZY will get wind of the poor feeling towards this session and look again at the results of your chop ride!!!

Shagtastic
8th Aug 2001, 02:26
Rhythm Method...couldn't agree more with you old chap (ex BA speak?)

I also know a couple of accomplished high time pilots snubbed by ATP and yet promptly hired by other 737 operators...to easyJets loss.

Rocket Ron
8th Aug 2001, 02:41
.......lucky escape I'd say!

Pilot Pete
8th Aug 2001, 13:49
RR

'what did he expect?' I hear you say. I would suggest he was looking at how you handled the difficult situation you were put in. He certainly wouldn't have expected you to fly the perfect profile in an 'alien' machine, but what he would have required was the right attitude toward it and a steady improvement as the session progressed, commensurate with your previous experience.

I must admit, if it had been me, I would have spent all night learning the profile, standard calls and speeds if I'd wanted the job that much............. attitude counts for a lot.

Never forget that a company like easyjet can pick and choose based on whatever criteria they like. When there's a pilot shortage (for real) you might find things change, but until then you still have to jump through their hoops.

PP

Pandora
8th Aug 2001, 14:01
Memories of my 3 weeks at ATP Academy include lots of lovely blokes and one big
t0$$er. Had the most damning report of my life from this chap saying I wasn't fit to be a pilot. Fortunately for me BA and the other sim guys didn't agree with him. I know this is going to be no consolation to you now, rr, but if you had this particular bloke in the sim no one is good enough to be a pilot. BA know there is a slight problem with him but he was once caught spectacularly on camera being a hero and his ego never recovered. All I can say is I hope you weren't a pilot of the female type because in his mind we deprive our husbands of a dishwasher.

And please don't tar all BA people with the same brush. Remember that it was an ezy day you were going to and they were the ones who deem ATP to be a good enough place for sim checks.

Good luck with future jobs.

roland rat
8th Aug 2001, 17:28
As my final post on the matter I wish to clarify one or two points,

1) Yes part of my first post was partially sour grapes, however I still believe this to be with just cause.
2) One of the gentlemen at the academy was exactly that, in ever sense of the word; the other however was most certainly not! I apologise if any offence was taken by the ATP Academy as a whole this was not my intention.
3) My gripes about the sim check was a) The lack of time spent on briefing and familiarisation with the type. b) That after completing an extremely long day it was nearly impossible to then drive a hellish trip around the M25, M3 and cover a brief to learn the profiles etc. (as it was both my colleague and my self had less than six hours sleep before having to report for the sim.)
4) I "accept"(just to please Lab Man) that not all BA pilots are the same, as I have many friends with BA, however my perception of a lot of their more senior Cpts is summed up by the word arrogance. This is why I have not and will not apply to them.

To everyone who has given encouragement many thanks, and if anyone is off to easyland and wants any information about the new format for the sim or interviews I will do my best to oblige.


;) ;) RR

Cpt Nil Further
8th Aug 2001, 22:52
:confused: ...RR... Is it true that the Easy Jet sim check ride consists of what is now basically a two hour OPC/LPC using raw data in an aircraft sim most of us have never flown before?? If so only type rated people are going to survive and the annouunced opening of the new BFS base in the new year is not going to happen. Perhaps Easy should reconsider returning to in-house assessment....UGENTLY. If you can not assess a pilots ability in 30 mins then something is most definitely wrong.

Tug
9th Aug 2001, 00:02
I found the sim and the people who run it to be very reasonable. They gave us a good intro to the cockpit layout, didn't rush us and it was a ready when you are kind of deal.
Take-off to landing; probably 20 mins to half an hour. Despite my misgivings re my efforts I still came away thinking that they had been very helpful to both me and the other guy. Wish all sim instructors were as un-stressed as these guys.

Gypsy
9th Aug 2001, 01:08
Capt Nil Further - no its not true. Ludicrous suggestion if I may say so.

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: Gypsy ]

Big Buddha
9th Aug 2001, 02:28
I think the ATP Accademy is a disgrace, the briefing for the sim ride is non-existent and the way they used to fleece the wannabees in the old days is something to believed.

I really can't believe that the airlines still use them, they really arew the old boys network justifying their existence and I really pity anybody having to be sent there to have to get a job.

LTN man
9th Aug 2001, 09:21
A question from a non-pilot. I take it that the sims was carried out by FlightSafetyBoeing at Luton. Are the examiners and instructors employees of easyjet or FlightSafetyBoeing?

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: LTN man ]

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: LTN man ]

lets go nads
9th Aug 2001, 18:25
ltn man wrong! they are out of house instructors of a fixed base sim in Southampton a company called ATP. They have this simulator set to STUN, impossible to fly properly, 45 minute raw data mini OPC. Myself and a colleague from Europe B737 qualified 2000 hours on type and myself 757/767 were the only two in the morning (combined total hours 10000hours) yes and we can fly aeroplanes , the two canditates in the afternoon also lucked out.Both of us flew ok but a little scrappy in parts but YOU could not trim the bitch!! After the sim ride they did not talk to us they disappeared in another room with security locking and left us to find our own way out.Finished the day before at Luton at 6pm all was good , thumbs up to the EASYJET part of the recruitment very professional, however
Friday afternoon 6.30 pm M1,M25 yes you can picture it we arrived in Southampton 10.30pm started studying the profiles 11pm bed at 3 am could not keep my eyes open any more. Up at 7.30am sim at 8 am. Absolute bollocks!! Good luck to Easyjet if they keep using these clowns as part of their recruiting. They should be using their own check captains to asses pilots not some crusty BA haz beens who think they are Gods gift to aviation and therefore everybody must fly the crapped out sim to perfection!!These guys at the end of the day DO NOT know what Easyjets' requirements are, only the training captains do.Anyway commiserations to everyone on my day and to you all, at least I have a good job (even though i will be an old man before i see a left hand seat.) Easyjet if you are watching SHITCAN these morons and do the assesments yourself otherwise your expansion plans are null and void.Good luck to all who are successful as i am sure there will be. :D

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: lets go nads ]
:D :D :D :D

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: lets go nads ]

rhythm method
10th Aug 2001, 00:52
Lets Go Nads,

That is identical to the guys I know who have been to the chop ride session. Totally shattered by the time comes to fly the box, having had no time to learn the power settings etc for the profiles, immediately followed by arrogant ex-BA God of Aviation!!!

Not really much of a chance eh???

EasyJet if you are viewing this thread... lose the crusty old b*ggers at SOU and do it yourself. You'll get the right candidates for the job, and probably not waste so much money chopping guys who are without doubt perfectly qualified for your requirements.

Cpt Nil Further
10th Aug 2001, 00:55
Gypsy....Sorry but it IS true, have just spoken to two very experienced guys who were chopped on Saturday. One flew a two hour detail, the other, a one hour forty five minutes detail, these guys are very sharp one of them scored the highest ever score recorded at Easy during the assessments....something stinks... I will be temporarily withdrawing my application until it returns to in-house.
Any one from Easy management care to comment.

Phillipa Hole
10th Aug 2001, 01:00
Surly easyjet should at least have a member of their flight deck monitoring the proceeding, then at least there will be a fair assment as to what their requirements are!
I heard one of the Captains evolved has the highest score on the current format for the aptitude tests that they have had, if this is the case then again what exactly is easy looking for? By the way Assment is spelt the way I mean it!!!
;) :rolleyes:

carlos vandango
10th Aug 2001, 02:12
I did a successful check for Easy before Christmas. It was at Burgess Hill and was a fairly pleasant experience! The instructor was from Storm Aviation. Seems to have all gone a bit wrong lately. I know the two guys concerned in this thread very well and all things being equal, if they can't pass such an assessment then nobody from their airline will. Looks like the BFS base will take a lot longer to set up than EASY thought.

Captain Airclues
10th Aug 2001, 15:29
roland

I was very sorry to hear about your problem. All airlines, as well as monitoring the performance of their pilots, also keep a close eye on their instructors and checkers. Several UK airlines use computer based records, where the average grades awarded by each individual instructor can be monitored. If it is noticed that one particular instructor seems to always be rostered with below average pupils, then the situation can be investigated. Regular standards checks are also carried out on all instructors.
However, the situation is not quite so straightforward when an outside agency is used for either training or checking. After a while, the airline gets to know the strengths and weaknesses of the agencies' instructors, but it is very difficult to do anything about it. I can assure you that it won't take long for Easyjet to get this guys number, if in fact it is he who has the problem.
I suggest that you write to Easyjet and explain exactly what went on. However, I suggest that you avoid any emotive language, and do not blame anyone else for your problems. I have met some of their senior trainers and they are a very professional group of people who, I'm sure, will listen to reason.

Best Wishes

Airclues

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Captain Airclues ]

Katy
10th Aug 2001, 20:28
I have recently completed my type conversion course with easyJet. I found the training, both with The ATP Academy and easyJet, was generally carried out to a very high standard.

Having read the previous posts submitted by those pilots who were not successful at the simulator assessment stage, it seems that a general lack of suitable preparation and understanding of the exercise may have been a contributory factor.

easyJet do not assess flying ability in isolation at the simulator stage. The company has a limited time to assess flying ability, CRM and general airmanship during the exercise, all of which are applicable to the safe operation of their aircraft.

These facts were made clear to me by other pilots who had previously undertaken the simulator assessment .

A few simple tips:

Learn the profiles - there is no time at the pre-simulator briefing to digest all the information if you do not already understand the principles (it is not for me to tell you where to find the information. If you are serious about a career with this airline you will find it out for yourself, as I did)

If you have a long way to travel, use your common sense - stay in a local hotel the night before. 50.00 in hotel bills is a small price to pay when set against the chance of a career flying jet aircraft.

Do not think that low-cost = low quality and that you will 'fly' through the sim. check. Although the exercise was carried out (by an easyJet training captain) in a relaxed manner, they do expect a good standard of operation. Naturally, if you have not flown a swept wing aircraft before some allowance will be made - it was in my case.

There are no tricks in the selection procedure (in my experience), but easyJet expect you to be as professional in your preparation and performance as they are in their assessment of your ability.

This is my own brief opinion, take it or leave it. However I do now have the B737-300/800 on my licence.

Good luck to you all!

LTN man
10th Aug 2001, 21:38
By the front door of FlightSafetyBoeing at Luton is an easyjet logo. Maybe the SOU sims will be transferred to LTN

iflyboeing747
10th Aug 2001, 21:57
Completely spot on..Katy..!

In the slot
11th Aug 2001, 00:13
Katy, a word of warning to you!! Be careful with what you say. I think that people prepare in a variety of ways for interviews and sim rides. Some more efficiently than others. No doubt some of your points are valid, however so are those of some of the aggrieved. YOUR lack of experience MAY have been an advantage to you more than you can imagine, as the expectation of the examiner is certainly far lower. To then conclude that the other guys must have failed in other areas too is rather judgemental for somebody of your low experience. No, I am not a failed Easyjet applicant. Thankfully I have an excellent job with a major carrier. My post is merely to say that during the different interviews I went to for a variety of airlines, I saw an amazing difference of requirements, aptitude tests, skill tests and interview questions, and that NO airline can say it gets the right people for the job over 50% of the time.
Well done to anyone just hired, and good luck and keep trying everything you can to everyone else!

springbok449
11th Aug 2001, 00:39
Big Buddha,
I was one of those wannabees and like many others I do not feel as if the ATP Academy took advantage. A type rating plus a jet job without having to put my hand in my pocket I can't see what is wrong about that?!
6 months on a reduced salary for all the above is a small price to pay.
Bokkie449.

Macman
11th Aug 2001, 00:42
Guys,

I have also recently gone on line at Easy. My sim was done at East Midlands (Coalville) by a very nice guy from Storm Aviation. All very laid back and informal - I recall he said he was there to 'get us the job, not stop us getting the job'. I am sorry to hear so many people are not happy with the set up down at the ATP Academy. My course completed groundschool and fixed base sim there and I have to say it was first class training all the way. The fixed base sim is
probably not the best place to assess someone for employment - it cerainly does not behave like the full sim - but that's a fixed base sim for you! I agree with the comments above re booking accomodation prior to a sim ride. I booked in at a Travelodge on the M1 as my report was 0500......

Perhaps the management should review using a fixed base sim for assessments - there are obviously a lot of experienced people not happy with it. Best of luck to all trying to get into Easyjet - it will not suit the moaners and groaners but from what I can see it's going to be a major player in Europe and so far, I am impressed.

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Stabtrim ]

carlos vandango
11th Aug 2001, 04:56
Katy, you have some valid points, however, if you read the original post carefully I think you'll find they are not relevant to this particular thread.Also, Easyjet have now changed their selection procedure markedly from when you and I went through it.
I also have no problem with the ATP Academy..been there, done that. It would appear the finger is pointing towards a renegade instructor.

tilii
11th Aug 2001, 15:28
Oh dear, cannot resist this one.

Carlos Vandango says he has no problem with the ATP Academy, then: It would appear the finger is pointing towards a renegade instructor. I too would put my hand up to having in the past had no problems whatsoever with this organisation. In fact, I would describe it as operating at the very highest standards possible. The fact that one of its checkers might appear to some to be too harsh, or even not particularly friendly, is of no consequence whatsoever. High standards are essential in our industry, and high standards are certainly required at ATP. There should be many more ATP Academies everywhere. Our industry would be so much the better for it. Well done to CC and his team. More power to you all, and keep up the excellent work. ;)

Mr Moustache
11th Aug 2001, 19:31
I cannot believe that the Sim ride was so long for a non type rated person. I did mine back in Oct with a EZY TRE at Coalville (EMA).
I got airborne, flew about for a couple of minutes to get a bit of a feel, then some GH, climb, turns, changes of speed and configuration, then climbing/decending turns combined with IAS changes. We then did a procedural ILS to go arround. Then a 'no drills' engine failure. At that point I got the flight director back (all raw data until then) for a procedural ILS to land.
It was pretty demanding but not impossible even for someone like me who had never sat in a Boeing before. They want people to pass but a decent standard of basic flying skill is essential.
Regarding the B737 procedures trainer at Marchwood used by ATP Academy, I cannot believe that it could be used to assess any kind of handling skill. It was'nt that great as a proc trainer. It was designed to train in basic procedures and in automatic flight, never handling.
Hopefully EZY is not loosing good guys through bad assessing. We need good people.
Generally, sounds like I agree with Stabtrim!

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Mr Moustache ]

Raw Data
11th Aug 2001, 20:20
Ah, the execrable tilii returns. You know, the one who recently said:

I do not wish to participate on this site and will now remove it from my computer.

What a pity he is not a man of his word!!!

:D :D :D

GlueBall
11th Aug 2001, 20:35
In many instances personality factors, demeanor and appearance play a larger role in recruiters' minds than pure flying skills.
Obviously an explanation of why lesser experienced pilots get hired.

Been there, done that. :cool:

tilii
11th Aug 2001, 20:36
Raw Data

What I actually said was: While the likes of Raw Data and The Guvnor are permitted to constantly debase any reasoned discourse, I do not wish to participate on this site and will now remove it from my computer. And your immediate reply included the following: Tell you what tilii, and I'm being serious now, shall we start again, this time promising not to lower ourselves to insulting each other, but stick to reasoned debate? We could even agree to disagree like adults. It's a brave new world!!!
As I obviously got to you, I apologise unreservedly for my terminology and inference. I'm sure you're a nice chap really. Buy you a beer sometime? So much then for men who keep their words.
:rolleyes:

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: tilii ]

snooze_ya_lose
11th Aug 2001, 21:28
So how did you read his reply if you had "immediately remove(d) it from my computer"???