UAS Closure

[Briney]

Saw details of MTWS measures that have been taken by TGDA including the proposal to close all UAS's depending on the outcome of a study in April 05 with an efficiency saving(?) of 52 sqn ldr and flt lt posts.

Any ideas what will replace the UAS's and at what point FJ streaming will take place?

[Jackonicko]

MTWS? TGDA?

PETA

(Please Explain these Acronyms)

JAFJ

IACT

(I am completely thick).......

[Briney]

MTWS = Medium Term Work Strands = MOD self-hack exercise in efficiency

TGDA = Training Group Defence Agency (part of PTC (Personnel & Training Command))

But then if you don't know these common mil acronyms, you probably can't answer the questions!

[Jackonicko]

Now if only you'd said 'Work Strands'....

Dunno about common acronyms, but thanks for the explanation. I don't have answers, but when I do get some, presumably you won't be interested?

[6foottanker]

Surely the whole point of getting rid of JEFTS was so that they could help justify the expense of the UAS system. Where else do they suggest they train graduate ab initios? Does this mean that the RAF will only take non graduates from the date of the study???:\

[BigGrecian]

Well the whole point of JEFTS was to save money across all three services and train all pilots at one location. For some reason the RAF chose to withdraw from the scheme. Now it looks like they'll be forced into it.

[PhoenixDaCat]

No UAS = no AEF?

[BEagle]

.....and the loss of yet more QFI slots for novice QFIs to develop their skills.

The number of ageing FTRS QFIs on some UASs when the RAF has an alleged pilot surplus seems very odd...

Is there no end to the beancounters' avarice?

[buoy15]

This is a follow-on of the errosion of the training base of our Great British Industry
Mining
Shipbuilding
Aircraft
Cars
Building Trades

However, do not be disheartend - we are meeting the targets for Equal Opportunities - Minority Support Groups -Community Divisional Officers - Gay Lesbian Support Groups - Rights for Wimin
The Black Police Officers Association - The Black Lawyers Association - the annual count of White People In City Centres
and how many people will vote for Bliar at the next election

[Lima Juliet]

MTWS to most AD mates stands for Manual Track While Scan until some blunt twonk stole it for an acronym meaning "CUTS" (why couldn't they use that word?).

I was listening to a blunt a few months ago talking about MTWS and thought that he actually knew something about flying...how wrong I was!!!

LJ:}

[Ad astra per aspera]

The loss of the UAS system would be a tragic loss to say the least. I'm only now entering my 3rd year of 4 as a Pilot bursar and I can see all the arguments for this move - bloggs is too busy doing his gingerbeering to come and fly during term time / Jim seems keen, but evidently is only here for a PPL etc.

But take a step back and see what the UAS does for some people. I've seen bloggs from any no. of freshers' fairs drastically change in their time on the squadron. We don't simply recruit pilots, but also send a lot of people into the various ground branches & of those people who don't make it or decide the RAF isn't for them, they are some of the few among Joe-public that have the slightest understanding of the forces, how they work and why we exist.

(Excuse my spooling & grammar - only a student after all :} )

[EESDL]

UAS' can't be saved using Trenchards' reasoning - did not spot a single 'future leader of industry' possible during the recent round of recruiting.
Did see lots of delinquent students though!!

[AllTrimDoubt]

Now that every spotty yoof seems to drift towards higher education as a divine right/excuse to delay productive employment, one cannot assume that the Universities are automatically full of our future leaders of industry.

Nor are the UAS's providing a pool of semi-trained aircrew that can be "topped-up" to go into Squadron service in the event of hostilities at short notice.

There is no place for the UAS system in the new MFTS. At least not in the current form. Waste of £££.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Big G / 6' Tanker

The reason the RAF withdrew from JEFTS was its inability to produce sufficient pilot throughput, hence the Direct Entry flights on a couple of UASs. If you follow that to its logical conclusion if you have a system of providing EFT (UASs) already in your service, why pay a contractor to do it as well? Withdrawing from JEFTS was a real cost saving!

Furthermore it is CAS's stated intention that we should have a younger frontline. If that means taking more pilots direct from school and not from university (better return of service and into the frontline earlier) then that is likely to be the way ahead. As for training ab initio pilots, there was no EFT in the 70s and 80s just straight to BFTS so why should we need it now. Until MFTS decides what it is actually going to provide we are stuck. I suggest about 100 hrs on, say, a PC21 followed by streaming to Gp 1, Gp 2 and Gp 3. Then a few more hrs on the PC21 followed by Hawk, King Air or Squirrel!!!! Or is that herecy?

[Tonkenna]

Goodness me Roland, that sounds familiar;)

How's things anyway?

Tonks:cool:

[Neil Porter]

What about merging UAS & AEF into exisiting VGS units??
Would that be more feasible??

[Roland Pulfrew]

Neil

What would the RAF gain/achieve by doing this? The VGS units are gliding schools not EFT. Their ac is even less powerful than Das Teutor.

Tonks

Long time no speak. All is well, I think!!!

[BEagle]

Did you get the OM Sky system sorted, Roly old chum?

Common-core wings course on a high performance military trainer sans EFT, then streaming to FJ, ME or RW? No, no, no old chap - mumble, deep blue water thinking, mumble, mumble, network centric, mumble, mumble, big picture, mumble, mumble "I hear what you say"....

Of course it's the right way. The only way. And if no UAS, then how about service-sponsored PPL-level training whilst at university? Most of us had that pre-university, so why not whilst actually AT university to keep prospective graduates interested without the 'streaming' pressure they currently face?

[AllTrimDoubt]

Roland...

Watch this space....!

[Ad astra per aspera]

The return to the old days of the UAS system without streaming has always been a non-starter (...release the starter button and wait 30 years. Check all financial settings. Attempt further restart). - The beancounters simply wouldn't cough up. At the end of the day the RAF isn't taking on board as many pilots as it used to (for the next wee while anyway), so guess what squadrons aren't in as great a demand anymore.

Clue:
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/415fe597z14492980/9764/__sr_/596e.jpg?ph4s_XBBowbys7Z8

I don't want to be counted among the last to have experienced the UAS. I'm only at the bottom of the pile looking up as these sort of proposals are generated, it may just blow over or be the next thing to happen to EFT. There are people in here of greater years and experience than me who know better what to make of these things.

Point for thought though: If the UAS system were to fold what questions do you think would soon follow about the other services having university units. Can you imagine the response from the "Royal British Army" if the OTC then suddenly came into the sights of the same 'cost cutting' bodies in Whitehall.



[Excuse the spooling and grammar - only a student after all! :} ]

[GodisMyCopilot]

I will be such an unbelivable shame were the RAF to close down all of the UAS's. They are a excellent recuitment tool for the RAF not just for pilots but all trades, many of of my friends never gave the RAF a thought for a career but after UAS many have joined up and love their careers.

It also raises the profile of the RAF in the local communities were UAS's are based. My UAS were always doing charity work and other good community service. This country is the only country I believe that has a UAS and ATC youth systems in place and are the envy of many of my overseas student friends who were unable to for reasons of nationality.

They also open up the horizons of the people that are members of them, I had a fantastic 3 years on a UAS and particapated in many activities that I would not of been able to do otherwise. I can honestly say that it made me a better individual.

To try to move the RAF to a younger frontline by cutting out graduates would be a shame as there needs to be a balance of ages/abilities upon entry to make the RAF work.

I have visited a lot of RAF bases with my UAS and can honestly say that we brought some life to the officer's mess in days where more people live out than in. This comment was raised to me by an number of senoir officers I have met and mess staff who worked for the RAF during the good old days.

Who are these bean counters that keep cutting this nations great establisments to bare bones yet they are continually asked to perform as well as they always have. Once you close things like UAS's they will be gone for good.

Long live CUAS!!!

[Grand Fromage]

God is my copilot,

You say CUAS ever made a presence in WOM bar? Not when I was there old mate ;)

Is anyone else getting fed up with these knee jerk reactions by bean fumblers? Having spent 3 years on a UAS, I can definitely see flaws in the system and where money is wasted, but overall it's a brilliant system. As for streaming after UAS EFT, yes it is tough and perhaps not the best system in the world, but it gets results. A UAS mate with FJ potential can crack the course during summer hols at no detriment to his/her degree whilst enjoying the social bits and pieces in term time, not to mention keeping out of trouble and away from drugs etc.

If the RAF were to send everyone onto something like the tuc or pc21 if we get it, huge amounts of money would be wasted on people without the capacity to go down the fj stream.

At the moment, we have a "fit in or f**k off" unit where the committed get through and the rest fall by the wayside - I've never seen such a perfect system of natural wastage. The resultant product is junior officers who are coming out of IOT having seen the RAF, warts and all, at uni and still are committed to the job. On the flying front, the disgruntled wannabe FJ mate who discovers he hasn't got what it takes can think again about a different career without the ballache of post IOT pvr, and the guy in two minds who turns out to be s**t hot might swing towards the idea of joining.

Better officers, better pilots for next to nothing.

Let's get rid of it? Good thinking guys!!

[BigGrecian]

If the RAF were to send everyone onto something like the tuc or pc21 if we get it, huge amounts of money would be wasted on people
Hang on isn't this happening at Linton at the moment with the re-streaming. Some countries send all pilots to secondary training like the Tin Can then stream pilots.
I have visited a lot of RAF bases with my UAS and can honestly say that we brought some life to the officer's mess
Of course we don't socialise at all normally we're all working far too hard.;) Comparatively you probably do spend more time in the bar, because you don't have work to do the following day. I assume your from CUAS, Wyton isn't the best mess for JOs living in - so is hardly representative. Unfortunately initiatives such as Pay as you Dine are destroying mess life though!

I know plenty of ex-UAS members who agree that UASs are quite often just a social/drinking club. However, they do have a recruitment benefit, but hang on, we don't have one of them, especially following the reductions in personnel required each year.

They do have their benefits beyond Pilot Training - however the cost far outways these I'm afraid.
I wonder how many airfield closures we'll see (Under the Defence Airfield review) where only UASs are based. I should imagine it will be quite a few.

[pr00ne]

If there is a push to reduce the age at which aircrew enter into productive service then I think that will be the death knell for the UAS system. 26 year old Flt Lt JP's on a first tour is a little daft is it not?

As to reducing airfield numbers, I doubt if the demise of the UAS and the closure of smaller airfields is what they are seeking. That saves virtually nothing as many of these places exist primarily for other purposes and the UAS/AEF at the airfield site is not the reason for the existence of the site.

A goodly number of main base closures is what I think will happen, it is THE most significant cost saving measure that the USAF/USN have stumbled upon, which is why they are about to embark on another round of cutting main bases in BRAC 2005.

Disband the UAS at Colerne for example and you still save virtually nothing but peanuts by closing the airfield, the site continues to function. Close Lyneham, Coltishall, St.Mawgan, Benson, Leeming and Odiham however and you save a packet!

[GodisMyCopilot]

The UAS system was once more of a drinking social club than it is now. Since returing to the squadron and meeting the new students they all seem far more commited and determined now than in the past due to the fact that you must make good progress on the flying front in your first year otherwise your out! So much of the drunkeness has been taken out that when me and my mates returned we were the only ones on the beers and everyone being all serious! I UAS's have come a long way since the posh drinking clubs they are percieved as being.

[Helibelly]

I did my three years at Uni. Whilst there I joined the UAS. Had a great time drank a lot of beer and did almost 50 hours flying. As a free flying club it was great, as a place to train pilot prior to going to Linton it was hopeless. I was recently asked by an aspiring undergraduate if joining the UAS was a good idea. Sadly I told him it was wiser to concetrate on his degree first then join the airforce where he could then devote all his energies to his flying training at JEFTS. Who came up with the bright idea that undergraduates could do a degree and their flying training at the same time? The pressures of flying training are bad enough but to then have some bearded monkey teling you you've not got your essay in on time really takes the biscuit. If your wondering, yes I did graduate from uni, linton shawbury etc and have eleven good years flying before leaving for other climes. As for getting rid of the UAS, heart says no, wallet says yes :(