Formation Flying

[Gerard123]

Hey all,

My friend and I are +- 100 hr tt PPL's. We've decided to fly formation together to spice up our hour building. Both of us although not experienced in terms of logged flying time have flown hundreds of hours with other more experienced pilots. We have also received some hands on formo training with a few of the top formation pilots in South Africa.

We have briefed and and have setup specific operations for all parts of the flight. We've flown roughly 6Hrs in formo together. But on Sunday I took my dad for a flip where I met my friend by chance whilst on the ground. We decided to do a bit of formo on the way back.

Midway I took the lead and my friend repositioned by flying passing underneath something he was taught to do but I wasn't. I got surprised because I lost him visualy and my dad freaked because he had no coms and didn't know what was happening. We've since talked about it, he accepts blame and we've tightened up our operations "rules". But my dad isn't happy he reckons we're inexperienced and will kill ourselves.

Can anyone help with advice for formo and for proving my dad wrong or right? Are we too inexperienced to do this? What is a good total time that we should begin at ? My argument is we've been taught the basics and will only get good with practise. We fly safe, 1.5 wingspan separation maintain good vis by flying 45 degrees from eachother and have agreed to a maximum rate 1 turn. Are we ok please help !!

Regards,
Gerard.

[Herod]

I can't help you, but I'd like to say that this is one of the most professional and responsible posts I've ever seen. I'm sure somebody will come up with the goods, and I wish you many, many hours of fun flying in the future.

[BOAC]

Well, I've a fair bit of formation under my belt, and I would say you are basically OK.

The only provisos I would add are:

1) Change position with both lateral AND vertical clearance until you are 'aces'

2) Make sure you KNOW AND PRACTICE the emergency break-away and watch the rejoin closing rates.

Enjoy.

PS Leave dad on the ground for a while :D

[Gerard123]

Thanks,

That compliment means a lot to an 18yr old. Enjoy your flying too, keep safe.

Regards,
Gerard.

Thanks BOAC,

I agree with advice1 that\'s why I got surprised! The problem was my friend was taught by an "ace" (leader of a jet team). We have to relearn from the basics up until we are experienced enough and TRUST eachother enough to do those things.

With regards to advice2 we\'ve agreed the lead must break down and left because we are high winged and it will fly him away from the no.2 who can then keep visual. We maintain 90KTS and the no.2 will join at 100-110KTS slow and easy to manage. Hope that sounds good.

Regards,
Gerard.

PS may I ask what formo experience you have had?

[Tarnished]

Gerard,

You are asking all the right questions which is good.

I think you have had some dual instruction which is also good, if I have misinterpreted what you have written then I strongly advise you get some dual instruction from someone who has done military formation flying or preferably instructed military formation flying.

Maybe its your youth, but I hate to see the words "spice up" used for anything other than cooking. The fact that someone in your formation "freaked" means that things did not go as expected. He wasn't adequately prepared, things did not meet either your or his expectations - that is not good.

Some formation basics:

Always, always, always have an escape route.

Make sure your reference lines (you need three) provide adequate separation, pace it out on the ground, manhandle the aircraft into position if needs be.

Make corrections and rejoins in one plane of motion at a time -- forward, up, then in should be your mantra

It is easier to fly a closer formation than a wide one, less relative movement rolling into and out of turns

Make sure it is adequately briefed and do not invent things in the air. There should be no surprises, if there are make sure you get to the bottom of why the happened.

Establish SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) for things such as:
Radio check ins
Formation change acknowledgements
Lost leader procedures
Loss of comms
Hand signals
Lead changes
etc

Did I mention, always have an escape route.

In my experience the most dangerous time in formation flight occurs when a lead swap is planned. Don't do it, but if you really have to do it make sure you both know exactly what to expect.

Formation flying is demanding, to do it well (to maintain the briefed position +/- zero) is tiring and rewarding. Take a break after no more than 10 mins, perform a simulated lost lead, break away, shake out the tight muscles, have a look around and then perform a rejoin.

Consider turning rejoins when you have a bit more experience, particularly as you don't have a large speed band to play with.

Remember, if an object in your windscreen has no relative motion but is getting bigger it means you are on a collision course with it - breakaway and try again.

Hope this helps and make sense. If it doesn't make sense please ask for clarification.

Regards

T

[jayteeto]

The RAF Chipmunk EFT course had a solo close formation sortie in the sylabus at about the 60 hour TT stage. It involved 2 hours dual training then a solo. I was not the sharpest pencil in the box and I coped OK. If it is well briefed, there is no reason that it will be a problem. Remember to walk before you run..... :ooh:

[Gerard123]

Hi T.

We have received some dual instruction, I'm not too clear on my friends but personally I've had about 4hrs. From two ex mil pilots. Sorry about "spice up", I meant make interesting ie no more lonely x-country flights.

"Make sure it is adequately briefed and do not invent things in the air. There should be no surprises, if there are make sure you get to the bottom of why the happened."

"make sure you both know exactly what to expect."

It wasn't a formation member who freaked, it was the passenger. The only real issue was that he (No.2) didn't com his intentions, and I got surprised because he didn't change position in a standard manner. We have talked it out and have made sure it WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.


Otherwise thanks for your help and your time.


Hi Silberfuchs.

We have plenty of people to talk to, don't worry. But the more the better right? So where better than PPRune? Thanks for the advice, my wingman was trying to do what you outlined but didn't get as much "back" clearence as I would've like to have seen, he also didn't tell me he was using this method before he did which was the big problem.

I didn't give enough detail about emergency breaks when I mentioned it earlier. I also meant to say right and not left (don't worry I dont make mistakes like that in the air!!). I was talking about if the lead had to break for some sort of problem. If the No.2 has to break we would do it your way. Standard break is no.2 first and then 1 like you said. We fly from separate airfields so when we break we always head off in opposite directions.

We did land at the same airfield once but we arranged with ATC that we flew straight in together then myself as lead would do an orbit away from No.2 to reposition myself as No.2 behind my wingman for finals.

Lots of great advice, just what I'm looking for ! Thanks guys,

Regards,
Gerard.


PS I'm going to try attach a pic to help with regards to our distance. If someone would tell me how to do that ?

[Tarnished]

Still not happy about ANYONE freaking - from what you say it would therefore be OK if I did a zero g bunt in a 747 with 300 passengers down the back all screaming their heads off as long as me and the flight deck crew knew it was going to happen.

I don't think so. You have a duty as a captain of a flying machine to ensure that everyone under your command (pax are your command) is not unduly endangered - scaring the ***** out of someone does not pass in my book as good captaincy.

Flying should be exhilerating, stimulating, not terrifying.

T

[Intruder]

It is good that you have received some instruction from experienced formation pilots, but ensure they know and understand the differences between military and civilian formation flying before you take their word as "gospel."

Performance and handling is significantly different with light civil airplanes, so make sure you and your instructor understand the limitations of your airplane.

The sight picture is different for each airplane type, so make sure you and the instructor know the proper sight picture for each position for YOUR airplane. The picture should be verified by scale models, photos, etc.

All participants should be included in the briefing, including the passengers. If the passenger cannot hear the radio, or you are using hand signals, ensure you verbally tell him exactly what's going to happen BEFORE each maneuver. Then talk him through the visual picture DURING the maneuver. If your passenger is apprehensive, he may do something unexpected and/or dangerous.

[Cyclone733]

Gerard123

You say you both fly from separate airfields, how often do you brief? When I was doing my formation phase on a UAS, each flight was briefed before hand covering what the sortie would entail, SOPs, emergencies, fuels etc. It also covered the way we would communicate ie hand signals/radio. It was as much for the instructors as for the students, as their flying backgrounds varied considerably. Although this may not be practical for you, the more often you can brief together the better.

As for flying under another aircraft in a formation change, I'd stick to well out to one side and slightly lower. Removes the possibilty of decending into your mate should the engine give up the ghost.

Cyclone 733
http://www.geocities.com/radds1/DSC01430s.JPG

[Gerard123]

Tarnished,

Please dont take it to extremes. My passenger knew the swop was happening but we both didn't know my wingman would fly the change the way he did. I didn't scare the **** out of him he has flown with me many times and will continue to do so. I am considered a very responsible pilot by a lot of qualified persons. My wingman screwed up and that was the only problem which has now been sorted out.

Intruder,

My instructors have flown mirage III, AT-6, vampires, hunters etc and are now commercial airline pilots (747-400 , A340-600, B737-800) who instruct part time on light aircraft for fun. They also fly a pitts special formation team, in which I received my training. Thanks for the sight advice.

Cyclone,

We see eachother every week day. We study the same degree at the same university and talk flying almost every hour of those days :) Your swop method is the one we should use, he forgot this and used a different but not incorrect method.


Regards,
Gerard.