SERCOs New Horizons....

[BEXIL160]

Dear All,

Staring at my half filled New Horizons coffee mug the other day I wondered how the New Horizons "Guiding Principles" would fit with SERCO management.

1) Put Safety 1st
errrr, NO. Not if it conflicts in any way with making a huge profit

2) Strong Customer Focus
Identify who you can screw the most money out of.

3) Innovation, Quality and continuous Improvement.
Nope, this costs money. See 1 above

4) Pioneer Change
For the worse

5) Treat people with respect
You're having a laugh, right?

6)Right Climate for people to contribute
Make the b*ggers work harder

7)Teamwork
Best left to LAFC... then again maybe not.

8)Work with others to Create New Opportunities
What else can we get out of two jags?

9)Leadership
Divide and conquer

I write this tongue in cheek... slightly.

Any more thoughts?

[BombBay]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif
CONTRACTGRABBINGJOBSLASHINGMONEYCATCHING
BULL****TINGFAIRYSTORYMAKINGTOTTALLYDECIEVING
PUBLICITYRECEIVINGSTAFFINTIMIDATING
CONTRACTMANAGINGCOSTCUTTINGARSELICKINGTEDDY
OUTTHECOTTHROWING.....SERCO! :P

[SercoController]

Obviously you have never worked for Serco. Are you saying that you can not make a profit and be safe? That would indicate that EVERY private industry is unsafe. I think not. Why is everyone on this forum so down on making a profit? I assume YOU do not work for free.

The only thing you know about Serco is what you read in the rags. Unless of course you worked for them and I know you didn't or you would have accurate information.

Serco's values and philosophies extend from the employee to the customer to the shareholder.

This is NOT written tongue in cheek.

[Legs11]

If profit, share price and shareholders dividend are the goal, then safety is and will still be No.1
Without safety, Serco shares would not be a good investment as any 'mishap' would be bad for industry confidence and therefore shareholders.
All this bl**dy doom and gloom. Serco have their faults yes, but they really are not that bad and when you look at how NATS have looked after staff in the past, Serco actually have a pretty good record.
Watch that space.

[slurp]

legs11 ..if you think SERCO have a good record please look at the links on'SERCO to meet the unions'page2 ,....if thats good ..well...mmm

[Hurry Thru 9]

Legs 11,

You are labouring under a large misapprehension if you think SERCO is a better employer than NATS. You give no indication as to exactly what it is you do in the field of ATC (chk profile)!

Are you worried that people might not treat your contributions with any seriousness if they knew?

[BEXIL160]

How do you know that I've never worked for SERCO? Or aren't you counting IAL? Not everybody got their FIRST ATC licence at CATC and some of us might well have worked at a certain middle east airfield BEFORE joining CAA/NATS as it was then.

At least NATS has some sort of "safety above all else" policy, even if it's sorely tested at times. I notice that, by your own admission, SERCO only consider safety because it might affect the share price.

There have been NO assurances from SERCO about how they will treat staff should they get the PPP contract, indeed when pressed they REFUSED to answer. Not very encouraging.

[Bright-Ling]

Odd that BOTH (if there are two people here) have similar profiles.......

BOTH have no interests, no location and NO OCCUPATION !!!

If both are SERCo employees, the last bit is probably true, so I forgive you!!

[HarryBucket]

I have never worked for SERCO but exemployees I have spoken to are very scathing about them.

Although all companies get bad press from time to time, even NATS, it's unusual to find so many exemployees, as in the case of SERCO, that are so unhappy with their former bosses. As a result of what I have heard about SERCO, I certainly don't want to work for them.

I don't know if this is true, clarification would be greatly appreciated, but my understanding was that NATS was committed to making an 8% profit a year. How else does NATS make money for the Government? The Government is, after all, in the buisness of making money to spend on the country (and policians salaries).

[dme4]

Serco use to run Liverpool Airport (not just ATC), their only claim to a major airfield in the UK. They no longer run Liverpool Airport, check out why. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[GFA003]

The best thing about working for SERCO was knowing I had a job in NATS to come back to.

When I worked for SERCO they had no commitment to the work force. In a 3 and a half year period they had a staff turn over in excess of 60 staff.
Max number of staff on unit about 25...

[WebCreator]

The two fat ladies (Legs11 and SercoController) continue to talk in theory and yet we have all read so many articles and instances where Serce let THEMSELVES down with their varied current and previous antics. Safety as a method of making profit is bizarre to say the least - bit like saying pulling teeth saves dentist bills!?! Let them justify their claims the same way those with negative (or concerned) views have illustrated their fears - articles, ex-employee evidence, press comment etc etc - failing that lets all get in a circle and sing the company song which begins with Baa, Baa....

[Legs11]

ouch!! Sticks and stones.....

[BEXIL160]

According to the Daily Telegraph this morning SERCOs share price dropped 29 points yesterday....

You've told us just HOW important that is to you LEGS11, just thought you'd like to know....

Meanwhile I, and my colleagues continue to operate a Safe, Orderly and Expeditious ATC System. That is important to us . (No mention of "profit" you see)

[Hurry Thru 9]

SERCO share price nosedives -

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/010315/80/bcdup.html

[The Mad Controller]

Bexil160.....I hope you are not implying that only NATS controllers operate in a Safe, orderly and expeditious manner !!

As a SERCo employee I have similar goals along with most other 'shop floor' workers. If the management system behind us is not willing to provide with the latest toys to do the job then movement rates slow down to maintain the safety aspect.

If, when I started in this career, I was offered a choice of two jobs, one with NATS and one with SERCo, then I would have taken the NATS route. But that would have been based on the fact that NATS had the better Terms and Conditions of Employment and were more technically advanced.

Surely the basic worry for all you NATS'ers is whether you take home salary and your working tools are going to be affected by all this. Not whether safety will be compromised because as professionals we will ALL ensure that, to the best of our individual abilities, that does not not occur.

NATS appears to have too many managers and SERCo appears to have too few with relevant experience, so maybe a happy medium in between exists.

Regards

'Mad'

(extend downwind until you lose sight of the aerodrome)

[This message has been edited by The Mad Controller (edited 15 March 2001).]

[Karamba]

I'm with you here Mad Controller, some sense at last! There are so many controllers here who swallow every last scare story on the web/media, yet refuse to believe there can be anything good about privately-run ATC.
Of course no one would be crazy enough to ignore safety.

Some people are just scared of any potential change in their cozy little world.

Well wake up and smell the roses, your civil service life is about to change for ever, and this will affect the management much more than the guys and girls on the front line.

(can tell already I'm not going to win any friends here, and no, I don't work for SERCO, its Quamnet Hong Kong, but I still have an interest in ATC back in the UK with several friends who work in the industry)

[WebCreator]

My take on your last comment "we will ALL ensure that, to the best of our individual abilities, that does not not occur.
" is the crucial bit. Individual abilities includes access to support staff, ATSA's, Engineers etc as well as availability of competent equipment, training, HR, rest periods, comfort features (such as canteens etc) as well as appropriate work schedules and break periods. Under a company focused on profit first, some of the above must suffer. If those things are in any way altered then safety is compromised - we're not talking about cutting the number of ATCO's or asking them to move more planes in a given period, we're talking about the things that surround the actual function that all add up to a safe and stress-free working environment. The intangibles are often the first things to be cut because the inexperienced view them as unnecessary and you've confirmed that SERCO management lacks experience!

[Nabil]

Karamba, try telling that to BT.
i know its not the same, but absolutely nothing has changed since privatisation. Its still jobs for the boys, internal recruitment, and a dinosaur mentality with a top-heavy management structure.

I left a global telco to join BT, boy what a difference. Its like a step back to the dark ages. getting any kind of decision is impossible due to the forms, procedures and general inertia.

I strongly suspect that little will change in NATS regardless of who becomes their strategic partner. Why? Because the govt mentality will extend way into the future.

[G:RUFF]

Dear Karamba,
Firstly, there is no smoke without fire. So there should be a lot of concern about what SERCO are/are not capable of.
Secondly, can you really be so naive to think that they will just strip middle management out of the company and NOT affect the way the operation is run.
Seriously, these are very worrying times for us and it would be nice if you could share our concerns aswell.

[ATCO Two]

Hi Web Creator,

Glad you've been finally accepted by the ATC fraternity and thanks for your help and support. The Mad Controller makes two telling points,

"If the management system behind us is not willing to provide (us) with the latest toys to do the job then movement rates slow down to maintain the safety aspect".

I thought the whole idea behind PPP was to ensure meaningful investment in the ATC system. I cannot see that Serco will invest in anything other than the bare minimum equipment to do the job. Not conducive to a healthy bottom line.

And,

"If, when I started in this career, I was offered a choice of two jobs, one with NATS and one with SERCo, then I would have taken the NATS route. But that would have been based on the fact that NATS had the better Terms and Conditions of Employment and were more technically advanced".

In other words nobody in the UK ATC world chooses to work for Serco. One of only a few options left in a very specialised industry, after not making the grade with NATS.




[This message has been edited by ATCO Two (edited 15 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ATCO Two (edited 15 March 2001).]

[WebCreator]

Good points ATCO2.....It's a shame that the Pro-SERCO bunch can't come up with anything to substantiate their claims that SERCO is great...other than a share price (and even that one isn't working in their favour currently). I'm sure that all ATC staff at LATCC would be quite intrigued to read about areas where SERCO has invested where there was no crying need or had promoted a member of staff for people skills / safety excellence (rather than saving money / creating revenue) or had upgraded to state-of-the-art technology for no other reason than the comfort of it's staff. Sadly, I feel that those kind of stories will remain as fantasies. If I were a SERCOer then I think I'd stay quiet...Someone once said "Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak (type) and remove all doubt"!

[5milesbaby]

Karamba - side point here, I have been with NATS for over four years now, and the civil servant title had already long gone. (I think when NATS branched off from the CAA).

ATCO II and G:RUFF, have to totally agree with both your first points, the most worrying thing is that SERCO have no knowledge of Area Control either. We may have a 'cushy' number with NATS but then again, we deserve it. I feel SERCO may find a brick wall lined with lead when they arrive and try to change things ie. contracts, working hours, and shifts.

-[ Look out below, fallout coming ]-

[daft fader]

How is being an employee of NATS a cushy number? Because our employer has hidden behind successive government policies on pay in the public sector, we have rapidly slipped down the pay ladder in Europe. When you consider that alongside that, we are handling more and more traffic each year, and we (at Latcc anyway) have been messed about for most of a decade over the NERC debacle, things don`t look so rosy. The only certainty is that with SERCO given any kind of say, things will get worse. After 30 something years in a job which at one time I thought was the best in the world, I now find that I can`t wait to get out. There are plenty more people I know who feel the same way.

[BEXIL160]

Dear Mad Controller,

No, I'm not implying that only NATS ATCOs work in a safe, orderly and expeditious manner. In fact I'm not questioning individuals compentency at all. ALL ATCOs in the UK, be they at non-NATS or NATS ATCUs do the best they can, it's the nature of the job and people within it.

What I am implying is that SERCO in particular make the job more difficult by their fanatical obsession with profit and share price. They will only invest in people or equipment if it can be seen to provide a bigger profit. Such is the nature of private industry, Profit first. Indeed companies like SERCO have a DUTY to their shareholders to make a profit.

NATS is a SERVICE, which the airlines, our customers, pay for. The Police, Fire and Rescue, and Ambulance are also Services, which we as Tax Payers, pay for. No-one is seriously suggesting that The Fire and Rescue Services make a profit, are they?

The Orginal intention of this post was to point out that should SERCO get the PPP contract (God forbid) initiatives like "New Horizons", whatever you think of it, WILL be consigned to the dustbin as they contribute nothing tangible to the profit and loss account.

[Legs11]

Bexill, I personaly couldn't give a monkey's sh!t what the share price is. My point was only that an unsafe practice would affect it. And it is yourself and a lot of colleagues who are harping on that Serco's main aim is profit and therefore share price/shareholder dividend. Yes the price has gone down, pretty much like all others across the world recently. As it happens have you noticed the BT price, and they're part of the Airline group. Not promising.
We should all be hearing something pretty soon as today was/is final submission day I believe. Watch that space

[slurp]

re the above post : lets all get down and pray that the Airlines group are successful

[BEXIL160]

Dear Legs11,

Your beloved employers share price continues to fall (down 17.5 points yesterday). If not you, other employees seem fixated on it and have said as much here.

BT's share price may well be down, as are the rest of the Airline Group consortium, but they aren't looking to make a PROFIT out of NATS, merely to run it efficiently as it is in their interest to do so.

Only one "L" in BEXIL, and no "F"in SERCO

Best rgds

[rowcourt]

As a non-NATS,non-Serco ATCO trained by both CATC and Bailbrook,I should like to say that across a spectrum of my colleagues at various units whom I have spoken to, SERCO is a disaster waiting to happen to NATS.
I have nothing but respect for the fine SERCO controllers whom I know, but the company is totally profit driven and has zero understanding or appreciation of the industry at a senior corporate level.
Ask some of the ATC and non-ATC staff at Bailbrook College how the company has treated them over the close it and sack 'em
decision which was only reversed when SERCO realised that part of their NATS bid included keeping the place open!!

[slurp]

thank you for the above posting ...its nice to have genuine people who are not following company lines posting here

[The Mad Controller]

Obviously as SERCo have been widely tipped as the potential winner of the PPP affair then its their name that is being bandied about in the postings on this website.

However, I think it would probably be true to say that whichever group eventually wins the PPP contest profit will be high on their agenda. After all thats what a privitised industry is all about, not just bringing in outside investment but also offering the investors a good return on their cash.

What will be interesting to see is if the so called regulator, CAA SRG, will have enough balls to take on NATS PPP when the financial srews do start eating into the infrastructure.

Since the CAA's change a number of years ago from 'prescriptive' regulation to one of 'audit' I think they have lost their teeth.

Oh, and BEXIL160, I consider all the items you listed such as ATSA's, Tels Engineers etc etc as the tools of our trade, not just the ATCO's who do the talking.

Regards

The Mad One (totally barking maybe)

(two stations tranmitting at once...one of which was me)

[Oldjet Jockey]

The mad controller is not so mad. He or she is the first on this thread to realise that profit is not always a bad thing. It is what a company does with its profit that counts. Of course the shareholders want a return for their investments and also hope that the value of their shares at least keeps up with inflation. Without an operating profit how do you think you can have all the operational goodies to keep ATC safe? Where will the money come from for research and development to keep you abreast of the traffic.
I dont know what proportion of their profits Serco or the Airline group dedicate to investing in improved facilities as opposed to paying dividends to their shareholders. If any one can find the figures it would make interesting reading.
But remember without the prospect of a reasonable return there would be no investment. If I had money to invest (and I dont)I'd rather put in in a safe savings account with low interest than invest it in a company that believes that profit is a dirty word.
Anyone out there able to enlighten us on the profit and investment records of the two contenders?

[identnospeed]

OJ,

The airline group obviously has no record of re-investment, because it is a consortium of companies, including airlines, which have never operated as a single business entity before.

If you were looking to invest, maybe one of those private pension schemes which, months ago, you indicated would provide similar benefits to the CAAPS, would be a good bet !

bye

INS

[OrsonCart]

Am I going mad, or has the airline group stated that it wants to operate NATS on a non-profit basis. All they want is to re-coup investment and REDUCE DELAYS, nothing else.

Less delays means more flights so more profit FOR THOSE HOLDING A SHARE WITHIN THE AIRLINE GROUP?

I suggest you read the Independent article today for sleaze, this is the REAL issue now. Is a Govt so corrupt to allow conflicts of interest?

Let us hope that REAL safety is recognised by this Govt, no more Railtrack's!

Thank God that I am not a farmer and my heart goes out to those that are.

[BombBay]

Interesting comment about SRGs teeth, and I know that it's slightly off the thread, but :mad:I'm concerned that regardless of who gets the contract, SRG's teeth will remain blunt.
Lets remeber that this is an organisation, who, for all the good work that they do, have yet to prosecute any organisation which busts SCRATCOH on a regular basis.
I know of several units, (run by one of the bidders and and also an organisation north of Newcastle), who's units regularly bust SCRATCOH and nothing is done by 'the regulatory authorities'.
I've no wish to see any fellow atco in court but I believe if it came to it it would be the individual not the organisation who is the first in the firing line.
Given the apparent weakness of SRG now, what hope for us individuals if SRCO got the monopoly? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Oldjet Jockey]

INS

Of course you are right that a new consortium does not itself have an investment record, but each member of it does, and it would be unusual if the combined policies of the individual companies were not to become the investment policy of the consortium. To merely recoup initial investment will not provide for the future. Sufficient profit to recoup initial investment and to provide for future development and re-equipment is an absolute must for any business or service provider to survive. Dont forget that as staff you are a very important part of the organisation and that a failure to maintain and improve safety and efficiency will affect your future.
I am just trying to say that profit in itself is not a bad thing in fact it is essential. It is how that profit is used and the motive behind its creation that is important.If you re-read my initial post you will find that that was my point, and that I indicated I had no money to invest!!!, unless you would like to organise a collection on my behalf.

[WebCreator]

It's also about how the profit is generated ie, if it is generated by reducing the cost base rather than identifying new commercial opportunities / charging more for existing services then the risk of a negative impact on pay and conditions yet again rears its head. Unfortunately whilst the Airline Group has no track record, SERCO's record is as a cost cutter and asset stripper. I don't agree with the comment about looking at the individual companies for an idea of track record - all the companies making up the consortium will have success behind them (in one way or another) but their combined effort will produce a new strategy.

[Nabil]

Profit? hah! Dream on.

Why d'you think BT is in the sh!t now?
its the same old civil service show, 20 yrs on. they didn't have the ability to adapt and evolve to face the future. the old management was too busy protecting their pensions and making sure all the old boys kept their jobs. Like i was saying before, and no-one seems to have picked up on, NATS isnt going to change much when the govt still has the control, regardless of who becomes the partner. and they will suffer because of it when exposed to the icy winds of commercialism for the first time.

you may say NATS is not civil service. you don't realise how protected you are! its adapt or die chaps, and after 20yrs BT still hasn't learnt the lesson.

[Nabil]

personally, i don't think NATS should be privatised. unlike BT, air traffic control is a unique industry that needs govt protection, investment, and stability.

tony blair / margaret thatcher are they related or what?

[slurp]

well at least you got it right in the last post ,nabil.

[Mr Chips]

Bit confused about the BT references the Nabil. Apart from the fact i don't think that they are in the sh!t, they made a huge number of staff redundant.

[Flybywyre]

Hello Chips..............

I'd call £30 BILLION of debt combined with reduced demand and more competition being in the SH!T. Which is why the share price has fallen from £15 12 months ago to £4.79 at this very moment.

Regards
FBW

[slurp]

what people don't seem to realise is that with this PPP,the bidder who wins is literally buying a monopoly...there is no competition...no shares...just a carte blanche to do what they like within the regulators agreement....they can do just as they please

[quadradar]

Worked for SERCO (IAL as it was then) in the dizzy days of holding a Birdseed Employee ID card - In the sands with Club Class travel and enough luggage allowance to bring home a Range Rover as hold baggage each leave ! Abu Dhabi was milked as a training base with far too many expat staff to justify, and the locals eventually cottoned on to it .... now the tides reversed and I say good on you to the UAE nationals. Some bloody good people work for SERCO ...... not in management though ..... sounds like a particularly lousy one at Abu Dhabs .... shame ....

[Echo Oscar]

quadradar,

I'm interested in your point about Abu Dhabi as I'm considering heading that way with either Serco or Thales (new bidder). Any thoughts you'd care to share with us?

EO

[PMS]

Bexil160 and quadradar are correct. Serco in the middle east have gone downhill bigtime. I used to work for them and would only consider going back with another company or if the UAE direct hires. The pay would have to be double what it is with villas and a damn good health insurance scheme. Serco has chipped away at the contract conditions in AUH to keep the profits up, now they can only cut pay. They have managed to do this as they employ a lot of South African mercenaries who will almost work for nothing as the rand is worthless and they are in lower management and basically do not know what they are doing. EO don't do it. Go with another company.

[Echo Oscar]

PMS,

Thanks for the tip. Having just watched the BBC news naming the Airline Grp as the NATS contract winner I figure what everyone else is saying must be true.

Time to speak to Thales again.........

EO

[PMS]

EO,

If you here from Thales let me know as I have an engineering mate there who may want to change and I am also interested (as ATC) to work for them as well.
Leave me a message on the bulletin board. Thanks

PMS

[This message has been edited by PMS (edited 28 March 2001).]

[SercoController]

Ha Ha HA You idiots you supported the airlines and they won. Do you think they care about you? It is a conflict of interest. Thank God the US is not as stupid as the UK. You have no Idea what you have lost. this is the best company anyone could ever want to work for. At least we will have your failure to look at when th US wants to enter into a PPP. What a bunch of morons you turned out to be. thank God I live in the US instead of the UK. Oh yeah I spent 9 years at Oakland Center and 21 years at Bay tracon. Busier than you will ever see. Serco is the best company anyone could ever work for. Have fun working for the airlines losers!!

[Echo Oscar]

PMS,

Is your engineering mate already in Abu Dhabi? I'd be interested to know his opinions or rumours on Serco/Thales issues..

EO

[Biggin Koksy]

Serco controller

From your postings on this site, I've actually worked out who you are. A couple of years ago there was a television documatary about TRACON. I remember seeing you on it. You were one of the goldfish in the rest room!!!!

[Bigears]

SercoController:
Not bitter are we?
If Serco management displays the same immature characteristics as you do, then its no wonder Serco lost the bidding!!
Even the UK Government couldn't ignore such childest behaviour (and thats saying something!).
There's a saying about 'toys' and 'cot'.

[RogerOut]

SercoController,
What an appropriate name! While personally feeling very hacked off at PPP going ahead I (and most of my colleagues) are happy that Serco aren't the "winners". I feel the whole thing was perhaps a bit of a scam, show somebody the worst you can do to them, then show them something not quite so bad and maybe (as in this case) they will think they've achieved something.
Serco are small-time corner cutters and have been vlified as the crooks they are. Also after visiting the US website for Serco Controllers they're sh*t for brains as well.
Serco controller you can't seriously try and take a rise out of us when you work for them
can you :) :) Clown!

Edited to apologise for not putting the boot in enough. See you on Oprah... Woo Woo

-----------------
RogerOut
I Keep Mine Hidden

[This message has been edited by RogerOut (edited 31 March 2001).]

[PMS]

People,
I agree with SC to some extent that having airlines involved with running ATC is NOT the way to go it is a conflict of interest. Just look at the Canadians. They have Aircanada and at least one other airline appointee on the board and they are literally out to screw the controllers. Biggest disaster they made. On the other hand though Serco would have done the same thing for the same reason PROFIT so SC is also wrong to some extent.
In OZ the government has gone allout to avoid any stakeholder (airline) being involved in ATC or safety regulation, and that is the way it should be. However, the staff are still getting screwed, why because of incoompetent management. Its the same everywhere and you all know it. Reality is a hard game to play, but you have to face the facts.

[Der SimMeister]

PMS,

Agreed.. the Airline Group is not ideal, but the union over here backed them, not because they are the right people to be running NATS (PPP is a bad idea, full stop), but because their not-for-profit stance is much better then the asset-stripping, employee-screwing, totally profit-driven SERCo.
The Government are hell-bent on the idea of part-privatisation; with that in mind, the airlines seem to be the " least worst" option.
We are not out of the wood yet; we are bound to have issues to deal with, but lets see what the AG are made of.


[This message has been edited by Der SimMeister (edited 31 March 2001).]

[Serco Stuffer]

I think it is very safe to say that SercoController is really JuniorSercoArseCreepingManagerWithNoHope. Who 'works' for SackEveryoneReemployCheapestOption! Or, he IS an ATCO that wanted a proper salary through the back door - NATS turn you down did they - didums.

Our managers are not the best in the world (often far from it) but they don't wear black uniforms, sleep with blow up Thatcher dolls, and they are not called Milosovic.......