VFR At Night

[off watch]

Scenario : UK civil airfield using only MATS Pt.1 /ANO , not JSP, in Class G Airspace.
Military aircraft requests VFR departure at night - which JSP allows.
1)What clearance would you issue ?
2) If you tell the pilot it is night therefore you can only issue an IFR clearance, what would you do if he says he cannot accept IFR ?
2)Would you attempt to separate it from other military "VFR" aircraft in the vicinity ?
3)Would you attempt to separate it from other IFR aircraft in the vicinity ?
4) Are you aware of any attempts to get SRG &/or Airspace Policy to make a decision on this matter ?

[Bright-Ling]

My guess...(!)

Military can of course go VFR at night. As it is uncontrolled airspace, you cannot refuse the VFR request.

Therefore:

1. I would issue a 'normal' VFR clrnce
2. You cannot refuse the VFR as you are in Class G.
3. Treat is as a daytime VFR. i.e. V against V = TI, I against V as per MATS pt1.
4. NO!!!!!!

Probably completely wrong!

==================================

"...this report is made without any reference to tapes, Mats Pt 1, my brain etc.."

[Findo]

Depending upon the class of airspace i.e. the Aerodrome Traffic Zone or whatever - Issue a Special VFR Clearance which only exists to the zone boundary. Required to separate from other SVFR and IFR traffic in the zone. Outside the zone the pilot decides whatever rules they have to obey.

The rules of the airspace dictate. If VFR flight is not allowed at night or reduced visibility then, military aircraft or not, ATC will not issue a VFR clearance.

Bl***y daft idea that you can be VFR at night anyway. 450 KTS and we will just have a look to see what is behind that cloud ... oops an IFR passenger aircraft.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[Bright-Ling]

Findo....thanks for that - but we are talking Class G.

Anyone else any idea???

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"....no - I am NOT called GRAHAM!"

[Findo]

Bright - Civil ATC cannot and will not issue a VFR clearance at night ... end of story. It cannot be done.

If the rules of the airspace allow SVFR then OK. If not then IFR.

No other alternatives.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[passepartout]

Been there done it...still alive to tell the tale...civil ATC can and do issue VFR clearances to military a/c at night.
Dont quote me on this but you are military..you do what the hell you like

[Bright-Ling]

Oh yes you can!!!!!!!

Remember when the wx is crap and you are at CATC and you tell an aircraft that you are "unable to issue a VFR clrnce blah blah blah" in Class D - that is fine.

How can you stop someone from flying VFR in Class G? Answer = YOU CAN'T

Give a Farnborough LCE a call and they will give you the gen!! They do this day in day out, and mil VFR at night.

And no JSP318 in sight!

[bookworm]

Interesting one.

Why do you have to issue a "clearance" at all?

If there's no approach control, the departing aircraft isn't going to get any separation anyway.

If there is approach control, are you permitted provide no separation from other IFR flights if the pilot of an aircraft declines to participate in procedural separation?

In that case, instruct him to leave the ATZ as you require and forget about what he thinks his flight rules are -- that's his problem.

It all begs the question "what is a clearance in class G airspace anyway?"

[Findo]

What is the status of the aerodrome traffic zone ?

Do you require a clearance ? If so - it can only be IFR at night.

If Farnborough issue VFR at night I'd like to see a MATS part 1 reference.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[VTSP]

Military helicopters go VFR any time they want. Just listen for the "Weather too bad for IFR, I'm going VFR" call, any time day or night.

[WonkyVectors]

As a civil atco any clearance you issue is on your licence. So surely it doesn't matter what rules the pilot can fly, it only matters what clearance the Mats I or II says you can give, and I don't remember seeing anything about VFR at night in it. Mind you I can't remember where I put the damn books never mind remember what's in them !!!
Whenever you are in such a position take heed of these words; Its your licence, Protect it!

[smooth approach]

As a military aviator, I would really quite like a VFR clearance at night. Where does it say you cannot issue such a clearance? Or are you saying it cannot be done because the book doesn't say you can?



[This message has been edited by smooth approach (edited 12 March 2001).]

[Bright-Ling]

Thankyou Smooth Approach.

Trust me guys, a civil controller can give VFR at night if your airfield is in Class G.

I must admit though, that I cannot find any reference in MATS pt 1, but then that is mainly written for CAS it seems to me. There is nothing for or against!

And remember, chap 1, page 1, para 2: "Nothing in this manual prevents controllers using their own discretion and initiative in any particular instance."

[Bright-Ling]

Findo...

this is in the MATS pt 2 at EGLF.

Section 4, page 13. VFR Arr/deps to Odiham Tacan.

"VFR departures by day and night will be flown using the sectors and crews will avoid flying outside these sectors unless directed by ATC."

I'll scan it in and send you a copy if you like!

Case closed?????

[screaming_vectors]

The case is most definatley not closed. I cannot believe I'm reading these replies. VFR flight CANNOT take place at night. This is stated quite clearly in the RULES OF THE AIR REGULATIONS 1996:

Choice of VFR or IFR
22 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) and to the provisions of rule 21 an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night:
(a) outside a control zone shall be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules; or
(b) in a control zone shall be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.

Is SRG aware that EGLF are permitting nightime VFR flights?

Flying IFR at night outside CAS is no big deal. It is just like flying VFR but at night, especially if you are flying at or below 3000ft Alt (and Clear of Cloud, in Sight of the Surface) as you don't even need to comply with the Min Height Rule.

The military may have other ideas. Maybe the Rules of the Air do not apply to them but it certainly does to civilian pilots.

[Bright-Ling]

Screaming......

I AGREE - you CANNOT fly VFR at night as a civil flight.

However, the original, and subsequent posts have been about MILITARY flying.

Since when have Military aircraft been subject to the ANO?????? (thanks for the quotation though!)

Get with the flow dear boy.

[Findo]

Bright - Smooth and Wonky ... Nobody is suggesting that the military pilot is subject to anything other than their own rules. What they do in class G airspace without CLEARANCE is up to them.

If they require a clearance from civil ATC then civil ATC are governed by the ANO and MATS 1 for the issuing of that clearance. They can only issue a clearance according to the rules of the airspace. No choice.

If the rules of the airspace say IFR at night then that is all they can issue. There are lots of nice chaps around who fly quasi military operations who would like to cross airways ( Class A ) VFR because it is a nice day. Civil ATC do not have the luxury of issusing such CLEARANCES.

If they talk to pilots who deem themselves to be VFR / IFR or any other FR then that is a matter for the licensing body of the pilots - ATC do not and cannot judge.... but they also cannot issue a clearance.

Now .. do Farnborough issue CLEARANCES VFR at night or just talk to people who say they are certain flight rules ? Please scan and post to us all.


Good discussion !


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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[This message has been edited by Findo (edited 12 March 2001).]

[fweeeeep]

I am not sure who on this topic is in the UK and who is not.

In South Africa, VFR is permitted at night, ICAO allows VFR at night, FAA (USA) allows VFR at night.

Anyway, I spoke to an expat from UK and an expat from Finland here in Dubai, and they agree that in their countries, (civil)VFR flights are subject to SVFR clearances to operate at night, IN THEIR RESPECTIVE COUNTRIES

The point is, that I am not sure who is making comment in previous replies to this post, but I am sure that opinions will vary based on the country you are from. Maybe we should all just state as a side-note where we are from when we add our opinions.
South African Expat - Dubai

[Marcellus Wallace]

Is a visual approach permitted at night? From my understanding, a visual approach is a manouvre for an IFR to complete it's approach to land.

[Bright-Ling]

aaaaahhhhhh....but.......

Why do you need a clearance to depart a Class G airfield?

Would it not be just Departure Instructions? i.e. Clear to lift and depart to the north, own navigation.

Is that a clearance?

i.e. At EGLF they tell an aircraft it's "Departure Instructions" and never a clearance.

Case obviously not closed!!!!!

(I am not at Farnborough though!)

[terrain safe]

As an ATZ takes its classification from the airspace around it, (it has no class of its own), then being in class G there is no need to issue a clearance based on IFR or VFR, and would this be issued by an AFISO anyway, so there it would be upto the pilot to decide what flight rules he is flying under as we only really need to know for terrain and traffic separtion. Or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?

[Findo]

Terrain - agreed. This goes back to my posting - posted 11 March 2001 15:35

Civil ATC cannot issue VFR clearances in inappropriate airspace, met conditions or night.

Whatever the pilots think they are doing is between them and their licence authorities.

This is for UK rules.

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Go with the flow ... or you'll miss your slot.

[Bright-Ling]

Not all airfields surrounded in Class G have FISO's.........Farnborough for instance!!

[Chilli Monster]

Plus all those other airfields with ATC in Class 'G' (there is a world outside of NATS ;) ).

However - The rules for the military are quite clear (JSP318A para 0514). They can operate at night VFR. As someone else has pointed out - why do you need a clearance? Separation is only provided between KNOWN IFR aircraft. Give him a set of departure instructions, don't even mention the words VFR or IFR and send him on his way. Pass traffic information on his other military brethren and anything else you have leave it up to him for his own separation. The interesting thing is when you start integrating Civil traffic with them. You'll often find though that they will accomodate your needs if asked.

Does everyone know out there that the Military effectively operates under a dispensation to the ANO (Art 126) - so no problems :)

CM

[matspart3]

Bright Ling
MATS 1 says you are required to issue a clearance to an aircraft receiving an ATC (or advisory) service (Sec1 ch 4 1-27)
Chilli Monster has the right idea. Why mention flight rules at all?..."Leave the ATZ on track XYZ...cleared for take off" Thank you very much and goodnight.
The problem isn't just related to military flights though as ATCO's at Southend, Norwich, Cambridge, Gloucester, Oxford, Cranfield, Exeter...and all the other airfields providing ATC in class G (wake up Terrain Safe!!), will testify
Scenario 2. Three civil a/c flying in VMC at night. Overcast cloud at MSA. Pilots not instrument or IMC rated so can't fly in Instrument Approaches or in IMC. All want to join at your airfield at the same time while the one scheduled service a day flies down the ILS. You can't see them, they can't see each other. They've called on your frequency and, consequently, are 'known' traffic. What separation do you use how do you get them in? Discuss.

Why don't SRG address the problems of 'VFR' at night?
Doesn't happen in CAS and they never see it...when do you last do a validation or comp. check after dark?
Seriously though, it means a change of legislation...and Parliament is far too busy selling off NATS/Banning hunting/taking bungs etc.

[terrain safe]

Apologies if I upset people, I didn't mean to, but doesn't this just show how a simple question can lead to so many different answers. One for the pub I think. :)

[Chilli Monster]

Matspart3

Easy :)

Hold the 3 VMC aircraft over known Geographic locations, call them in one at a time (probably joining them downwind - max distance from the IFR) and when you're visual with them use the reduced separation you can in the circuit (MATS 1 1-13). If all three are in the circuit and the IFR traffic is still on the approach then orbit them at defined circuit points (using both sides of the circuit if necessary). Feed them in behind him once the first one is visual with the IFR.

Looks legal to me ;)

CM

[smooth approach]

Anyone from SRG out there prepared to comment?

[matspart3]

CM
Perfectly legal if inexpeditious. Now the buggeration factors....two more at the holding point want to go local flying VMC, a VMC transitter calls you and another trainer inbound wants to do a couple of holds and the approach too.....this sort of stuff happens at my place all the time. Geographical locations are fine in principal although MATS1 discourages VRPs for holding but do we really want to 'hold' (ie exercise positive control) over stuff in the FIR?.....Another major concern is the worse case scenario where one of your local flyers wanders off and has an Airprox or worse with the commercial....they're both known traffic so you must provide them with an Approach Control service and, because it's night & they are IFR, standard separation. In practice we know this is simply not possible but without any published guidance/procs a good lawyer will crucify you at the subsequent court of enquiry. Any Class G airfields cover this in MATS 2?

[passepartout]

This thread seems to be almost covering 4 topics (Military,Civil CAS and non CAS).
From my point of view I work at an airport with a class D control zone but quite close to a large miitary base in class G airspace.
If a Military a/c calls me up in class G requesting a service then I am perfectly happy for him to operate VFR,as he is not subject to the restrictions of the ANO (I would not accept this from a civil a/c).
However If the military a/c wanted to enter my zone,then its my rules ,my ball,my license and so I would only accept SVFR as a minimum.
Throughout this thread though what must be recognised is that the MATS part 2 of a particular unit can,with SRG approval, overide the MATS part 1

[beaglepup]

BUT, there is always "SVFR"........

[aluminium persuader]

Flying IFR at night or any other time requires pilot's compliance with IFR rules, ie min height and quadrantal. That's all They can still make a visual approach and/or departure, and I would suggest "after departure, left/right turn on track" would do, with height restrictions only as required by your other traffic. FIS would almost certainly be acceptable.

[smooth approach]

Aluminium Persuader,

"IFR rules"????????????/

[Bright-Ling]

Alumin....

wise words matey.....but check the title of this topic!!!!!!!

[aluminium persuader]

There was I, happily writing away when my computer stole my reply and posted it b4 I was finished.
Anyway it's tomorrow now, so to cut a long story short I think it's high time that the CAA allowed VFR at night. I've done it in the States, and I think it's great when the lights of a town match the shape on the map!

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Once more unto the breach, Dear Friends...

[Bright-Ling]

Dunno.....scary enough doing LARS on a gin clear sunny day!!!!!

Unless I was on NVG........which is partly why the mil do it.

Cheers

[RATBOY]

Having done VFR at night in light a/c in the U.S. I don't know what the fuss is all about or why the CAA would prohibit it.

Night flying, especially in the summer, is smoother and cooler. If the visibility is good and a combination of cultural lights and a good moon are there it is not so much different from late on a cloudy day.

It takes some more headwork and judgement to do properly and landing can be a little tricky if there are no lights around the approach path to the runway. You have to use your instruments more. And it is easier to see the other folks with all their pretty lights on.

So, all that given, I believe the CAA should allow VFR at night and pilots should take advantage of it when weather and other factors are suitable. First few times up I'd go with an instrument instructor. By the way, the aircraft doesn't care, it doesn't know it's dark out.

[Bright-Ling]

So, that's sorted then. Going back to the original topic......

It is possible to fly VFR at night from a Class G airfield if you are military

Unless of course, any CATC instructors can prove different.

[terrain safe]

Don't tempt them. :rolleyes:

[ACORN]

As a military pilot I can fly by VFR in any uncontrolled aispace by night but must obtain SVFR to enter any controlled airspace.

In a lot of cases VFR flight is conducted with night vision devices so don't be suprised if we can see other traffic when you would not expect us to.

Nice to hear the other side of the debate though!

[Boeing_jockey]

I noticed a book in the crew room which might be of interest.

Airprox report no 4. Tornado and SD360. They quoted that the SD360 was IMC... unable to see the Tornado. Tornado DESCRIBED their conditions as VMC.

Cause - The Tornado turned into confliction with SD360 which was IMC and which they did not see.

Daytime ? ... Twilight !!

OK you guys saying nice VFR at night in a C172. A bit different with a mega tonne military jet doing 480KTS at night while I and my 250 pax gently emerge from cloud.

Not a clever idea in the UK.

PS a class A airmiss. Lots of risk of hitting.

[ukatco]

When I was at Farnboro we never gave anyone a clearance, they were given departure instructions. The only airspace I had any control over was the ATZ and it didn't take a Gulfstream V long to leave that vast amount of airspace.

As for the quote from the EGLF Mats 2, I think you'll find that when providing a service to Odiham aircraft the civil controller is operating under JSP318. At least we were in my time.

Anyway, can I give a VFR clearance to a military pilot at night?

[matspart3]

Yes...apparently

However, how did you separate civil joiners/deps/transit flying in VMC?

[srl]

very informative

[Rad1]

It's easy isn't it? The only clearance ATC can give in Class G at night is to take-off or land.

[Skycop]

Oh well, here it comes,

The military aren't the only ones to be using VFR at night.

UK Police aircraft are allowed to fly "Visual Contact" by night which is essentially VFR, down to 500 ft separation height (without NVG). Some units operate from uncontrolled sites in Class G airspace and are allowed to operate in same using a flight information service which is non mandatory. It is nice to be told by ATC that you appear to have the whole county to yourself!