Complex conversion

[Obs cop]

Simple really,

I'm wondering about upgrading my skills to more complex aircraft, namely retracting gear and constant speed unit.

What's involved in the conversion training and how long should it take?

Thanks

Obs cop

[Johnm]

Expect around 5 hours dual (assuming no turbo) to sort out speeds, basic procedures and power settings and emergency procedures

[A and C]

Five or six hours on the ground with your head in the books may be but no more than one and a half hours in the air.

If you have to do more flying you are being ripped off or your inital flying training was lacking or you have not done enough flying recently.

[Obs cop]

Johnm,

Why as much as 5 hours, a multi only needs 7?

My assumption was that it is basically differences training. I was looking at moving up from a PA28-161 to an arrow. Same basic airframe, just 2 new toys.

A and C,

Your guestimate is probably more around what I was thinking. I take it there is no set exam, but I would assume the instructor would test my understanding verbally. Does the conversion include any formal rating or paperwork needing CAA approval?

Cheers

Obs cop

[Johnm]

In my experience most club and rental aircraft need 5 hours or thereabouts because it's an insurance requirement. I agree that if you've studied the POH a couple of hours in the air is enough to get the know how. One hour normal general handling and familiarity and one hour on emergency drills would be typical.

[S-Works]

not sure about all this five hours stuff most places I know require sufficient time for the instructor to be happy to sign off. Most people I know managed it comfortably in an hour.

There is really not a lot to wobbling a prop and pulling the legs up that competant pilot cant handle. Emergency gear drills etc are simple enough and at least with a single you are not even learning to feather a prop.

A pilot who only flys a few hours a year may not be best suited to flying a complex aircraft anyway?

[cblinton@blueyonder.]

Get your instructor to show you a stall with gear up and gear down!!

Also ask about engine management as you have another lever to play with.

Enjoy:ok:

[rustle]

Obs cop is this something you intend doing straight after you finish your IMC rating?

If you have the opportunity to use and/or difference-train on a complex type during your IMC training period so much the better.

Doing your IMC in a simplex, then immediately doing the difference training to complex, then using your new IMC rating for real in a complex is a whole new experience best practised as soon and as much as possible.

IMC approaches and go-arounds are quite different in a retract/cs-prop aircraft than a simplex.

You may find it far simpler to transition from a complex-with-IMC privileges pilot using a fixed-gear aircraft in IMC than the other way around.

[FlyingForFun]

The wobbly prop stuff and the gear stuff can basically be studied on the ground, and then just a bit of practice in the air to see how it works in practice (and to make sure that certain things happen sub-consciously like using the levers in the right order, and retracting the gear when going around). Apart from that, it is just the same as any other type conversion.

The reason why some people require an extra couple of hours is because the aircraft will quite possibly be faster and heavier than what you're used to flying. This isn't really a problem except in the circuit, when everything happens very fast on downwind, and when if you're not quite lined up on final it's much more difficult to sort it out. Some people get the hang of this very quickly, others don't. I suspect that experience is a key factor - I had well under 100 hours when I converted to the Arrow (I'd have to check my logbook for a more accurate figure than that) and it took me around 5 hours - most of this was spent trying to get my head around how to get all the downwind checks done in time, and then having completed my checks, sort out the mess that I'd made of the circuit in the meantime.

FFF
------------

[S-Works]

I took 60mins and we extended it to that so I had my 1hr instructional flight. I have managed to put another few hundred hours on arrows since without a problem so I guess the checkout was adequate.

I did find it handy having complex time going into twin flying as I completed the training in 3hrs and had to spend 2hrs buring holes in the sky to make up to the minimum 5hrs.

As FFF says flying any complex aircraft is just a case of thinking ahead of the curve all the time. The more hours you have as a pilot as well as being current just makes this an easier task to master!

[IO540]

Learning what the levers do is easy enough. Learning about correct engine management (which tends to be desirable on the bigger engines) is something else, and try finding an instructor who knows that subject ;)

[Obs cop]

Rustle,

I was hoping to do my complex conversion after a couple of months experience with my IMC rating. My objective is to take lots of small steps every now and often to keep my skills fresh and myself current. I'm doing hours building before going for CPL and FI stuff so still in the wings (no pun intended) are,

IMC with autopilot operation and associated malfunctions
Tail wheel
Complex types
Night Rating
Crossing FIR's (namely going over to France/Germany/Holland)
Turbo's

Also tempting, but unlikely at the moment are multi's.

I have no intention of going out and immediately using my IMC rating in a faster plane, but will gain experience first and step up steadily. The current plan is to use a safety pilot to practice IMC in VFR conditions so that if all goes to pot, I can lift the hood up. Only once happy with that will I go roaring off in complex kit in clag.

Thanks for the concerns:ok:

As a seperate note, has anyone encountered problems with the step up to complex types? Moreover, has anyone ever found the increased need for remaining current too demanding and reverted to KISS (keep it simple stupid) planes?

Obs cop

[IO540]

As a seperate note, has anyone encountered problems with the step up to complex types? Moreover, has anyone ever found the increased need for remaining current too demanding and reverted to KISS (keep it simple stupid) planes?

I don't think flying a retractable with a VP prop is at all "complex".

Flying a 150kt plane when you are used to a 100kt one does mean having to think ahead a bit more, but that's not a problem either.

What I think is a problem for a lot of people is energy management, i.e. a 150kt plane is a lot more slippery than a 100kt one, and if you find yourself with 5 miles to run and 4000ft to lose, you can't just point the nose down :O Nor can you just close the throttle, because rapid engine cooling from a high power setting isn't a good idea.

So one has to learn a different way of flying - more "by numbers" than one does in the PPL. This matter isn't related to having a retractable gear or a VP prop, both of which are quite trivial.

I do think some instructors like to make money out of "complex conversions" when in fact they ought to start with teaching how to fly a slippery 150kt plane.

I would never go back to flying C152s and PA28s. A fast plane is much more fun to fly. But they are hard to rent, at least if you want one in anything resembling decent condition. I suspect that is because most PPLs have never been taught the stuff I mention above, so anyone renting out such a type has decided to just forget about what happens to it.

[englishal]

So to summarise.....It's at the Instructors descretion. If you're rubbish in his eyes, it'll take longer.....I hope for safety reasons and not money making reasons (bearing in mind that its his head on the block too, should you come to grief).

A valid point on the insurance requirments. I took exactly 5 hours for the conversion, basically as I wanted to rent the plane solo, and without 5 hrs complex I couldn't. I could've been signed off earlier but was quite happy to pay the instructor for a few more hours, I can imagine that its pretty embarrasing landing gear up ;)

IO's got it right I think.

[Barnstormer1982]

What helps for the time between your actual flying days is "chairflying". It is a way of training to get you used to a strong increase in workload caused by a new type, and we were told to use it during the Luftwaffe aptitude test. Some explanation if you should not have heard of it yet:

Basically you just hide in a dark corner (so people can't laugh at you:E ), imagine you sit in your Arrow cockpit and go through the real life flight you are practising for second by second. Operate every virtual handle as you would in real life, also include radio calls, and tell yourself which changes these do to rpm, mixture, speed, bank, pitch, alt, etc.

It really helps you "getting into the front of the AC" very quickly and therefore cuts expenses (but can't help if you have to fly a certain amount of hours until you are solo).


Just checked my flying log: Started conversion on an Arrow after 9.5 total flying time in C-150s and C-172s, soloed after 1.3 hours of conversion. Was my instructor careless? Was my mum rightly concerned because of her 17-year-old son flying?:D

[IO540]

englishal

I don't think the instructor is responsible. The "complex type differences training", or whatever it is called, is an informal thing for which no syllabus exists. It is just a signature in the logbook. If you kill yourself the next day, the instructor won't be liable. The only time an instructor (not in the aircraft at the time) is liable is when a PPL student is flying solo. If instructors were liable for people who are legal to fly solo, the standard of instruction would be a whole lot higher than it is :O

I was told by several brokers that the insurance requirement is just the signoff in the logbook, and after that the premium stays the same until one has hundreds of hours on the type.

A lot of people fear retractable gear. In reality it is the simplest thing, and doing a gear-up isn't easy. Normally there are two interlocks, either of which sets of a warning horn: the throttle being below a certain position (or the MP being below a certain value) with the gear still up, and selecting landing flap with the gear still up.

It is possible to accidentally defeat both of the above, by landing with less than the landing flap AND by landing into a strong headwind which requires a lor of power to maintain the glideslope.

The second one (strong headwind) isn't unusual but while I know people who quite like landing with less flap, I have never had to and can't see the point. I suppose in an extreme emergency, with no fuel left, no options left, and landing in a 40kt crosswind component, one might want to do it...

Unless one is flying a plane without these safety devices, the only time anyone is likely to land gear up is

a) into a strong headwind, AND
b) not using landing flap, AND
c) being very stressed out or knackered

And as regards a VP prop, one could always start off doing what Cirrus evidently reckon is OK: have the lever at 2500 for cruise, and fully forward at all other times :O

[FlyingForFun]

Interesting point about instructor responsibility. Whether instructors are, in the eyes of the law, responsible for their ex-students is one thing. But whatever the law says, I know that if someone I'd signed off to go flying went and killed themselves I'd feel responsible. And if they just went and did something stupid which didn't result in them killing themselves, I would no doubt share at least a little bit of their embarassment. I don't know if all instructors feel the same, but I would hope they do.

I'm not really too worried about getting the gear down. It is checked so many times that it is quite unlikely, and it will soon become second nature. (I disagree with IO540 about the gear warning though... I've found myself flying approaches with less than landing flap and using lots of power on several occassions in strong gusty winds, besides which there are lots of aircraft out there where the gear warning is disabled, broken or - as is the case with my aircraft - wasn't fitted to start with.)

What is far more important than getting the gear down, IMHO, is getting the gear back up again after a go-around. This does not become second nature so easilly because most of us don't do as many go-arounds as we do landings, but it's more likely to get you killed or seriously injured than forgetting to lower the gear.

FFF
--------------

[DRJAD]

Fully agree with IO540, et al., about the generally higher speed requiring more 'thinking ahead'.

However, it's not a problem, and, if you are gaining the IMCR or IR you should be used to doing this anyway.

Doing the conversion I found enjoyable, since thinking and reading about the differences beforehand was also enjoyable and straightforward.

The insistence on 5 hrs has been put to me as an insurance requirement, however, I was not, and am still not inclined to believe it unless I see the requirement in black and white from the insurance company. As others have said most eloquently, there is not a formal syllabus, consequently it should logically require only the instructor's formal sign-off that he/she is confident in one's ability to cope.

[squawking 7700]

I had 35 minutes in an Arrow IV before being let loose on my own.

I personally didn't think this was enough but with an un-intended full flap go-around (another aircraft on final or on the runway)
I felt OK after that.

If it's an Arrow you're thinking of upgrading to from a Warrior the main difference is speed, in the circuit, on final (Arrow IV especially) and cross country (you can get lost a lot faster!!!)
Definitely more speed sensitive than a Warrior, for instance climb speed is almost the same as a Warriors cruise.

I'd like to fly an Arrow III preferably a turbo, mainly because the
elevator's in the propwash, on the IV you really do lose elevator
authority at low speed (I'm sure somebody'll disagree) so don't let the speed wash off.
It also benefits from 10 degrees of flap on take-off to shorten the t/o run.

If you haven't flown wobbly prop and fuel injected before, you'll need to be upto speed with the POH for engine settings before
using the aircraft in earnest, both to get the best fuel consumption, engine longevity and starting (a hot Lycoming, although I've never 'em that bad).


Squawking 7700

[Obs cop]

Thanks for all the replies guys,

I've had a word with my instructor who reckons about an hour, mainly in the circuit. I'm not sure but I think it's an Arrow IV as it has no turbo.

What are the climb, cruise and descent speeds I would be looking at?

Cheers Obs cop

[Julian]

IO,

Agree with you that kegally you may not be responsible, however, I am sure that if you signed someone off for the club you instructed for and he then promptly rented the complex and stuffed it into the deck doing £££s worth of damage you WOULD be responsible in your employers eyes and looking for a new job!

The club I use wants 5 hours dual to rent the complex and either 25 hours dual multi with one of their instructors or 50 hours TT multi for solo hire.

Julian.

[S-Works]

25hrs dual multi????? that just smacks of people being used to fund hours builders and is disgusting.

Way back when I did my twin rating I did the rating and the following weekend took it to Guernsey. Flown quite a few hundred hours in it since without problems.

People, there is nothing difficult about flying a complex or a twin, it just takes common sense. Anybody who tries to convince you otherwise is just trying to build up there own self image!

Stay current and follow the checks like any aircraft and enjoy the flying.

As far as an Instructor being responsible for someone stuffing any rental aircraft it would be a very narrow minded person who punished them. Aircraft get binned all the time. You could make a pilot do a 100hrs duel but it would still not stop them having a lapse or a bad day. Thats the nature of flying!

[englishal]

25hrs dual multi????? that just smacks of people being used to fund hours builders and is disgusting
It IS an insurance requirement, I had a chat to the boss about it. There is nothing they can do about it, its not worth their while droping the requirments ($20,000 premium as opposed to $5000). In fact in the USA, this figure is one of the better ones around. Try renting a ME down the road, and they require 100 ME time, 500TT, and a checkout before they let you free on your own. In fact you'll be very hard pressed to find anywhere in the USA who'll have vastly lower requirments for ME rental.
would be a very narrow minded person who punished them
or a litigation lawyer;) The trouble is these days, everyone wants their slice of the financial compensation cake in the event of an accident. Just like the families of the "Washington Sniper" victims sued (and was settled out of court) the rifle manufacturer. Thats like me suing Draper because I hit my thumb with a hammer made by them. How mad is that? But its real life unfortunately.

EA

;)

[squawking 7700]

Obs Cop, suggest you have a good look at the POH for the aircraft
concerned for the figures, you'll be much better prepared beforehand without having to remember what the instructors telling you, it'll save you time and money.
It doesn't cost you anything to read the POH on the ground but it sure costs a small fortune when the fan starts.

Arrow III & IV available in turbo and normally aspirated.

Where are you doing your training?

7700

[Obs cop]

Squawking,

I'll have a good read, although it won't be for 2 or 3 months yet. I'm training at a well know training provider at Coventry Airport.

;)

Obs cop

[DRJAD]

I echo what Squawking 7700 says.

Looking at the POH on the ground, and making the appropriate notes, and committing the vital numbers to memory not only saves time in the air when you're paying, but it also saves a lot of mental effort.

The peace of mind gained is well worth the effort of obtaining and reading the book!

[FlyingForFun]

And remember that it's not just the speeds you'll need to remember for a complex aircraft... you'll also need to memorise the correct Manifold Pressure and RPM settings. And probably fuel flows, too.

FFF
-------------

[IO540]

Far better to make a little piece of paper with the cruise settings on it (say 45 55 65 75%) and stick it somewhere.

When checking out other pilots the thing I find almost everyone knows nothing about is engine management.

[Obs cop]

Cor blimey guvnor,

All damned fine information, but could someone please outline a few good practices for engine management. Whilst no doubt I will discuss it more thoroughly with my instructor, some prior information would help.

All of my PPL notes tell me how a wobbly prop and carb work, but not how to best use them. This I feel is the essence of becoming an above average prop wobbler and indeed, sharing the information may well urge existing complex flyers to adapt their flying to improve the engine handling and management.

Here's hoping

Obs cop

[Christo]

As said allready, it's up to the instructor to how long it will take. I just finished (today actually) my convex onto a baron 55 with no previous retractible gear or twin on my license at it took 4 hours. I had a VP endorsement though.

Most of the engine management stuff is in the POH for the aircraft for all the numbers, 55% power at such and such MAP and RPM, 60% and 75%. Most guys I know take a piece of paper with these numbers on them and stick it on the dash somewhere for easy reference. The rest is just good common sense like not to decent at 1500 fpm with less than 20" power but rather at 500 fpm at 20" and so. It's better for the engine and more comfy for the self loading freight :D These things now fly a little faster and need a little more planning ahead that a C172. If you do that there should be no problems.