sexual harassment?

[Fatigue]

Just wanted to share a story with you.....

A little while ago I had a female flight student, whom whenever she was sitting in the aircraft (rotors running) would rest her left hand on her left leg...I told her several times to keep her hand on the collective...... anyways, several days later she had still not broken the habit, so, in the aircraft I said, and I quote:
"See this big, long hard thing here" (stroking the collective)!,she looked over,
"Touch it, feel it, stroke it, (at which point she put her hand on it,(the collective that is)! and I said " doesn't it feel good".... she then went bright red and cracked up laughing.......
Well it worked because I never had to tell her again....
Afterwards when I had time to reflect I am just glad she was game as right now I would be facing a sexual discrimination suit! I am also glad on that day I didn't have a hot mike!!!!!!!!
Fatigue :ok:

[Av8r]

Fatigue, and that's what you'll have standing in front of a Sexual Harassment Board trying to justify why you should still have a job.

That sorta stuff is a mine field. And you just stepped on one, it went click but hasn't gone off..... yet. Don't lift your foot.

In this area, you are guilty as charged and have to prove yourself innocent. Never brief / debrief one on one. These days you have to cover your ass. Allegations can be made with out your knowledge and with out proof, it's up to you to defend why you should still have a job.

A close friend of mine has just gone through exactly this in a similar situation to yours with a large multi national helicopter company. Very scary.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

:\

[Fatigue]

Hey Av8r,

I totally agree with you , I think I was just frustrated with her and it just came out, but, upon reflection I know that I wouldn't say anyhting of the sort again, told myself to watch my mouth.....live and learn I suppose..thankfully she was a good sport!
Fatigue.

[Ascend Charlie]

Was flying once with a girl who had .. err.. magnificent chest ornaments.

While teaching confined areas, I was waving my arms around and pointing at various things, and came into contact with one or both of them. A quick apology followed, she smiled and said that they tend to get in the way anyhow, and nothing further was said.

These days, she would now own the school and her lawyer would have a new Mercedes.

[Old Man Rotor]

I sincerely hope that this student has passed and is out of your life.

This is still a loaded gun.

Once said, offended or words/pictures read, this person can at any time in the future cry fowl. And she will be listened to.

Imagine: If you don't send her solo, or tell her she needs more practice or fails a hurdle in her training. Then all she needs to do is mention that it was because he "you" was angry because I didn't "stroke his long hard thing". And you and your Flight School will be in all sorts of difficulty.

Best way for her to get free training that I can see.

Yes its a minefield. And somewhat extremely one sided.

[Fatigue]

Yes, she is long gone, passed everything.....
Fatigue.

[SASless]

My outfit has a very stringent policy regards Sexual Harassment...it shall not be tolerated....graded and critiqued...but not tolerated.:ok:

[bloodycrow]

funny this topic should come up...actually just last night I responded to an email from one of our company pilots who was reviewing information attached to our flight clipboard and wanted to know whether there was anything that should be added to it.

...being the fat, dumb (is the keyword) & happy pilot that I am (more so after a few ales..as was the case), I replied to everyone concerned (dumb being the key word again!) after "much" deliberation to add a reminder in bold lettering..."strippers at the Blood & Guts (hotel) every tuesday" .....buuurrrrp! ...send!

...and that was just a day & a half after being reminded by our base manager on the company's sexual harrassment policy and in particular, with reference to the fact that we had just hired our only female copilot!..eeks!...was a good thing that she hadn't arrived yet.

[Whirlybird]

Look guys, don't you think you're going just a teeny weeny bit over the top here. Most of us accept that this is a male orientated profession, and that this sort of banter will go on. We may or may not wish it would change, but I can't see any woman who's going to scream and yell about it really having what it takes to get a licence. As for legal action and getting lots of dosh...it's her word against yours, isn't it?

I for one hope that people would treat me as a pilot first and a woman second...at least when I'm flying. ;) Most of the time I think that's the case - though it often wasn't in the early days with low hours very young FIs who needed to grow up! If it's not the case...well, it's their problem, not mine.

For the record, most of us are capable of distinguishing between banter and real prejudice/sexual harassment. The difference is very obvious. And unfortunately, I at any rate have had enough practice to be able to separate the two. So please stop worrying about being misunderstood...unless of course you need to. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

I think I was just frustrated with her and it just came out

Thank god it didn't! ;)

No, joking aside, I think whirlybird is right. I know it's a funny world and people will try and screw you for everything you've got (no pun inteneded there) for making a tiny mistake which could easily be taken the wrong way, but I am sure she understood that it was nothing more than a silly comment.

Incidentally, have any female instructors out there had experience of this situation in reverse? I am hoping to become an instructor one day and I just wondered if male students behave themselves and listen to female instructors just as much as they would male instructors. I would hope to be treated as a pilot and like any other instructor.

WGS

[Vfrpilotpb]

Do you know, my time is running out faster than the credit-o-meter in Toni Blairs Government,

I have been looking for someone to Sexually Harrass me since I was eighteen, not found anyone yet, bu**er what am I doing wrong!

Vfr;)

[paco]

yeah, my company said it has a policy of sexual harrassment, but nothing's happened yet :)

Phil

Seriously, it would have to be a hard-*ss bitch of either sex to take advantage of such a situation, but they are around....

[NickLappos]

Fatigue,

I really understand the implied threat that hangs over us, but I think that in your case a downing grade on that ride would have been as effective, directly pertinent and more on the mark.

I took my hand off the collective in flight school to give a formation leader a thumbs up, and now 37 years later, I can feel the sting of the pink slip.

[B Sousa]

Harassment................a lot to me.

Could be the title of a song.

[J.A.F.O.]

I only read the thread because I thought it was an offer.

It's sad that people have to think this way and that every thing you do or say is fodder for some lawyer, somewhere. Having a mouth that runs slightly faster than my brain I am almost constantly either apologising or hoping no-one heard what I just said.

As always Whirlybird stepped in with the voice of reason, but not everyone is so reasonable these days.

[SASless]

Errrr...Nick....."Sting of the Pink Slip"? Did your pink unmentionable ride up and pinch you? Now we know about how Cobra Pilots got selected .....Pink Slips and untied boots....some sort of fashion statement? ;)

[Lu Zuckerman]

When sexual harassment is reported it can get out of hand if there is no investigation of the charges. This happened when I was working at Douglas Aircraft Missiles and Space division.

A new department was being formed and it was totally populated with women. In the group of women was a young girl whose total life experience consisted of raising and riding horses and not much more. The lead woman was also a union rep. She approached the young girl who was attempting to clean the optics of a microfiche reader with cotton rags. The union rep told the young girl to get a box of Kim whipes (oversized Kleenex ®). The young girl asked what a Kim whipe ® was and the union rep saw an opportunity to tease the young girl. The union rep told the young girl that at the age of 18 she should know what a Kim was and that a Kim whipe ® was used to whipe a kim and that every girl should know what a kim was.

The young girl reported the union rep to personnel and it was kicked up to the Vice President of Douglas MSSD. Two days later the union president, the union rep, and the young girl were in the VPs office. The VP jumped on the union rep telling her that she should know better and that sexual harassment was against company policy. The union president chimed in and essentially repeated what the VP had stated. The union rep was then asked to explain herself. After telling the whole story the VP and the union president started to laugh and they told the young girl to grow up.

[diethelm]

You guys are all sick and demented.

I see nothing sexual about the comments whatsoever. Get your minds out of the gutter. You were simply describing the device and how you would use it. If she took it as a sexual comment, I would be shocked, ashamed and astonished. We are all professionals here.

[SASless]

Ah...but we are Helicopter Pilots.....therein lies the difference.

We have a certain facade to maintain....no matter how much it pains us....we (particularly US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilots) have to appear as proper male chauvinistic swine who drink to excess and pursue the fair sex to a fault.

Granted some of us have further to go in our acting than others.

Besides, it ain't harrassment until the victim announces her displeasure and asks for the "offender" to cease and desist....afterall it has to be a "pattern" of behaviour and not a simple, single event (for verbal incidents)...physical events fall under the old fashioned criminal statutes regarding Assaults.

Gentlemanly behaviour will keep you clear of such problems anyway. If you speak to your students and work colleagues as you would speak to your wife, sister, Mother and Grandmother....what can be the problem?

[Whirlybird]

Whirlygirl Sarah,
Incidentally, have any female instructors out there had experience of this situation in reverse? I am hoping to become an instructor one day and I just wondered if male students behave themselves and listen to female instructors just as much as they would male instructors. I would hope to be treated as a pilot and like any other instructor.


Well, I've not been instructing long...yes, I know I've been saying that for a while, but with only a day or two a week, it takes a long time before you feel experienced....in helicopter instructing that is; I feel the need to emphasise that owing to the tone of this thread, which I know will head for the gutter at the slightest opportunity. ;) :)

So, to get to the point - I've had nothing along the lines of this thread. And most students appear to listen to me...as far as I can tell. About the only thing vaguely along those lines that I remember, a few months ago....

I arrive at the arifield; the CFI is out flying. My trial lesson student arrives, complete with wife and family. I tell him the CFI is out flying, and our helicopter will be back soon. He chats to wife and looks around. Time passes, and I figure I'd better give him a briefing, so ask him to come into the briefing room. I vaguely notice his bemused expression, but people are often nervous and unsure of themselves when coming for a trial lesson, so I think nothing of it, and chat and try to put him at his ease in my usual fashion. He then says: "I know this must sound a bit silly, but I didn't realise that there were women helicopter pilots". :eek: :confused:

Well, I must have been in a good mood or something, because I smiled nicely and told him that was OK, and there really weren't that many of us anyway. Lucky he didn't get me on a bad day!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

As for anything else, I'm not prone to making comments about the shape and length of the collective, or anything similar. :)

[Reefdog]

my advise is this.

unless the female wishing to be in the front seat is your daughter,mother,aunt,granny,wife or girlfriend. DONT...

all others are in the back

the only female that gets to sit front seat with me flying is my daughter

I like my work, the company I work for and

I LOVE MY HOUSE,CAR AND MY UNCOMPLICATED LIFE TO MUCH. to be jacked around by a possible sexual harassment claim..

I always brief female pax with a third party present.
I always load female pax in the machine with a third party present.
and I only speak to a female pax once in the machine if I am spoken to or if it is operationaly important...

AND YES I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE A.I.D.S. ( aviation indused divoirse syndrome,, be good if i could spell ) and have absolutely no trust in the so called fairer sex

[J.A.F.O.]

Reef

How terribly sad.

If a pilot cannot brief a pax or speak to a pax just because one of them is female and the other isn't; then it's a crazy world.

Either that or the world's okay and you've gone crazy - do you not think that, perhaps, you have taken it a little too far?

[FJJP]

After a full carreer in the Forces, I now work for a business where I manage 18 ladies. I have to watch what I say and do - one of them was quick to point out banter and body language matters at an early stage; I felt that I had to walk on eggshells - otherwise watch out. So, little banter, selective comment and care taken with certain individuals to avoid one-on-one situations. Thankfully, most of them are mature enough to cause no problems, but you never can tell just how your innocently intended remark will be mis-interpreted.

[B Sousa]

FJJP. Your comments are well understood. Anywhere Men and Women work in close quarters there will be some display of Hormones. Look at the Military today, what a mess. Bottom line I guess is one should not S:mad: where one eats. Tough to do when your young.

[SASless]

Easier to supervise 300 men than 3 women!

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

The world has become a sad place :(

[SandBlaster-214]

It has become a sad place Whirly 2. Sad in that now I must sleep through 16 hours of [I]Workplace Diversity[I] training each year. Yeah..., the gals thought having the word "sexual" in the title singled them out so, someone decided in the best interest of all concerned "let's make it name friendly". What a load of crap!

Now, if you two Whirlys wonder why we're a tad paranoid or cynical watch one of those tapes or go over the case review in which countless innocent dudes are being bent over for "the cause". Ol' FJJP hit it on the head - there is no "innocent remark" anymore. There are no jokes anymore. There is no "office humor" anymore. It's all witnessed conversations or tape recorders and CCTVs. Hell, I'm not even allowed to scratch where it itches anymore! ! ! What's the world coming too? ! ?

Oh..., sorry B. hormones, well... male hormones anyway, are forbidden as well. One of the tapes say ya gotta keep any "tendencies" in check at all times.

[Blind]

I am assuming you live in the USA, we aren't subjected to Politcal Correctness Videos thank god.

I am a pilot on the North Sea Pumas and happen to be a Doris, (that's narrowed me down to one of 6 people) One of my favorite things at work is all the banter and piss taking I am subject to. If my work colleagues were ever to get all PC I would be mortified.

One of the nicest things a captain said to me was "You are a bloke as far as I am concerned when you are in the cockpit."!

That's why it's called a cockpit.

[B Sousa]

Times change, just have to live with it or find another job.
The first time female types got into the Military flying end, I happened to be flying MedEvac in a Huey. We got two nice young officers on board and both in my eyes were 10s. I mean really sharp. Then we got a few women medics, crew chiefs etc, where it came to the All female crew. Anyway the two Pilot types were automatically skygods and beyond any criticism of their flying abilities. So much so that both of them in the cockpit...I mean personpit, fought like two cats in a paper bag.
They were also the first all female crew to die together as they flew into night weather that some Male counterparts said was too dangerous.

[Whirlybird]

This is all just totally completely ridiculous!!!! I spent most of my youth being told I couldn't do this, that and the other...hitchhike or walk alone at night or whatever, because all men were nasty evil rapists just waiting to molest any female who gave them half a chance. I didn't listen...never was much good at listening...and it wasn't true. Now I'm hearing that the guys are all walking on eggshells because any woman is going to scream rape if they get within ten yards of her or make any comment appertaining to straight long things etc. I don't believe that's true either. The world hasn't become a sad place; its always had fools of both sexes who over-react, if you bother to listen to them. Thankfully, the fools are in a minority, and I KNOW that most people, at least in the UK, don't think like this.

[diethelm]

Whirlybird:

It is simply a fact of life, certainly in the U.S.

I have been involved with companies which have successfully defended against these suits but the costs are in the 100s of thousands of dollars. The appropriate behaivor is as stated, do nothing, say nothing, look at the ground. It is simply not worth the risk to engage in a meaningful conversation because you have no idea who is after what.

The civilized world has become somewhat pathetic, ridiculous and corrupt, acknowlege it, protect yourself and have a beer because it is not going to get any better.

Which reminds me of a great joke......

What do you call a busload of lawyers going off a cliff with an empty seat.


A crying shame...........

[Whirlygig]

What has this world come to?

As Whirlybird said, we have been brought up to believe that all men are rapists etc etc. However, that shouldn't be and isn't MY problem which is why I will still walk whereever and whenever I want. I do not see why my lifestyle or personality should be altered and subdued because of a slim chance that there will be a rabid axeman waiting for me along the tow-path. True, I may get attacked one day but, up until that time (which may never happen), I have had the freedom to do what I want since I understand that the vast majority of men are not rapists.

Similarly for you blokes. The vast majority of women would not dream of taking a legal action for harmless banter or a bit of flirtatiousness so carry on as you would be and behave naturally.

Next time you are teaching a bird to fly a Schweizer and carrying out the pre-flight checks, when she reaches for the knob that says "PULL FOR QUICK ERECT" have a laugh over it and release some of that tension that would have previously existed.

[2Sticks]

Picking up some of the threads of the Whirlys, I can speak as a bloke who was taught by a female instructor. As it happens, she was a very attractive one (although if I was in the USA I could probably be sued for saying so ;)). She had certainly managed to achieve the respect of her male peers, was great fun to fly with , tolerant, unflappable and devoid of any ego that would be likely to get in the way of her thoroughly professional teaching style - more than can be said for a few male instructors I've met. So any budding female instructors out there, if you've got the ability and the confidence, go for it. :ok:

2Sticks

[J.A.F.O.]

The Whirlies are a sensible bunch whether they be birds, gigs or girls.

I think we're seeing a very definite split between the UK, where we are aware of these issues but are still allowed a sense of humour, and the US where the issues appear to be rammed down one's throat and any hint of humour appears to be have been eradicated.

I hope that this attitude and litigious mindset are not like Coca-Cola and McDonald's and making their way ever eastwards.

[B Sousa]

"The vast majority of women would not dream of taking a legal action for harmless banter or a bit of flirtatiousness so carry on as you would be and behave naturally."

In the U.S...................dont bet your career on it.

[John Eacott]

Nor, I regret to say, in Australia. We are rapidly overtaking the USA in being the most litigious nation going, but I hasten to add this is not so much the male/female agenda, but on all issues.

Most employers find it cheaper and easier to make a "nominal" payout to a disgruntled ex employee than to go through IRC (Industrial Relations Commission) where costs cannot be awarded, and legal bills for the employer will inevitably be double a "go away and don't come back" payout. Indeed, most insurance companies will dictate such an approach if the company has cover against such an action.

A very sorry indictment on our society and its so called "values" :sad:

[Whirlybird]

I do not see why my lifestyle or personality should be altered and subdued because of a slim chance that there will be a rabid axeman waiting for me along the tow-path. True, I may get attacked one day but, up until that time (which may never happen), I have had the freedom to do what I want since I understand that the vast majority of men are not rapists.

Similarly for you blokes. The vast majority of women would not dream of taking a legal action for harmless banter or a bit of flirtatiousness so carry on as you would be and behave naturally.


Thank you, Whirlygig, for putting it far better than I did; I can usually express myself fairly clearly, but I was annoyed and tired.

To repeat what Whirlygig said, many women have been restricted all their lives due to fear, fear that was usually unfounded, as few men are rapists and axe-murderers. Some of us chose to live our lives fully anyway, and it worked. Same for you guys. Do you want to always walk around in fear, of something that may never happen. Is it really worth it? Don't you know enough women who are scared of their own shadows? Do you want to be like that too? Is that what equality means, in the modern world?

This has nothing to do with the world, what it's coming too, where you live etc etc; it's simply YOUR choice.

[Whirlygig]

Oh guys, I can't believe this is the case. Are you sure that this isn't tabloid scaremongering? The same scaremongering that tells me never to walk on my own at night?

Anyway chaps, us UK Whirlies (and we are all female) are game for a bit of banter so, if you are prepared to take it...........

Cheers

Whirlygig

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

She had certainly managed to achieve the respect of her male peers, was great fun to fly with , tolerant, unflappable and devoid of any ego that would be likely to get in the way of her thoroughly professional teaching style - more than can be said for a few male instructors I've met. So any budding female instructors out there, if you've got the ability and the confidence, go for it.

That's inspiring... I have been teaching music for about 7 years, and when I first started out I did find that some blokes, particularly ones much older than me were not taking me seriously, but as I got more experienced that seemed to go away. Probably becuase I am a bit older now... in fact I think the blokes seem to pay more attention than the women in some ways!! Anyway I hope one day when I make it as a flying instructor my students will listen to me!! Perhaps I should get some tips off your instructor, she sounds like she knew what she was doing! :-)

WhirlyGirl

[ShyTorque]

WhirlyBirds/Gigs/Girls/Sarahs,

Well said. Thank goodness for ladies like yourselves. :ok:

Life is becoming more and more awkward for us blokes. On the one hand, we are expected to be "new age men" and take over the babies nappies, ironing and jam tart making etc. We aren't supposed to mention the fact that ladies are female or in any way different - it's not allowed or we fear litigation from the PC brigade.

On the other hand, they still get miffed if a door isn't held open for them, we don't notice the slightly different shade of lipstick or new jumper they're wearing, or we don't always volunteer to do the dirty jobs such as car oil changes or unblock the sink, or we don't understand when "It just IS, alright". :(

We are supposed to behave like women but if you look at the average women's magazine, the "fantasy pictures" of men are still as hunky, rough and ready as they always were. So what DO women really want? Do they really know?

Answers on a postcard (large) to "Shytorque, c/o Dear Marge@PPRuNe" :bored:

[Vfrpilotpb]

As it seems this good thread is able to wander a little, consider this, I have been throught my life a typical Bloke, Cricket, Rugby too much booze and when younger a little flirtatious with the good looking gals, I worked in a very Macho industry where Girls and women were the one's who scribbled on note pads and brought you the drinks and looked as good as they could, at the Cricket matches the girls and wives would be firmly attached to the tea tent, and the rugby was just the same.

When I started to learn about flying a heli, my instructor was horror of horrors a WOMAN!, I felt distinctly humbled from the very first minute of the learning process, for here was a nice looking gal, good sense of humour, but precise with everthing she was instructing me on, she was persistence personified, if I did something wrong , she made me do it again, and again and again until I finally got it right, nothing was every done to what would be called " well if thats your best" it had to be spot on,

Probably will make me sound odd, but that Lady flying instructor gave me a new vision of women in general, I now find that I have much more respect and tolerance of the fairer sex, and when I meet them(women that is) in business circles I spend more time listening to them than I did in my pre flying days.

PeterR-B
Vfr ;)

[J.A.F.O.]

Well said the Whirlies.

Warms yer cockles, so it does.

ShyTorque

On the other hand, they still get miffed if a door isn't held open for them, we don't notice the slightly different shade of lipstick or new jumper they're wearing, or we don't always volunteer to do the dirty jobs such as car oil changes or unblock the sink, or we don't understand when "It just IS, alright".
I don't do those things because she is a lady, I do them because I try to be a gentleman.

[Whirlygig]

It shouldn't be just because we are women. You should ( we ALL should) open doors for other people be they male, female, old, infirm, disabled because you have manners and were well brung up.

ShyTorque.

If you don't notice the new lippy or jumper, then the get out is "you look lovely/gorgeous/beautiful". Say this at most opportunities but not ALL the time.

Women know what they want. They want a man to be ruggedly handsome, devilishly charming, intelligent and sophisticated, witty, well-mannered and consideration, kind, gentle, able to talk about their feelings and emotions, be able to rescue small kittens from tree tops, rustle up a gourmet, candle-lit supper for two, be practical with woodwork and machinery as well as .......

Cheers

Whirlygig

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

as well as .......

.....fly helicopters?! ;)

Incidentally, I hold doors open for all kinds of people! Doesn't matter who the are! Nobody appreciates having a door smack them in the face!!

WGS

[Whirlygig]

Got it in one WGS ;)

...as well as fly helicopters ;)

And we are now back to the start of the thread with reference to that sensitive thing between the legs which only requires a delicate touch

:O

Cheers

Whirlygig

[ShyTorque]

Quote:

ShyTorque.

If you don't notice the new lippy or jumper, then the get out is "you look lovely/gorgeous/beautiful". Say this at most opportunities but not ALL the time.

Women know what they want. They want a man to be ruggedly handsome, devilishly charming, intelligent and sophisticated, witty, well-mannered and consideration, kind, gentle, able to talk about their feelings and emotions, be able to rescue small kittens from tree tops, rustle up a gourmet, candle-lit supper for two, be practical with woodwork and machinery as well as .......

unquote.

Aah, thanks, now I know why she loves me... :p

[OFBSLF]

Oh guys, I can't believe this is the case. Are you sure that this isn't tabloid scaremongering?Having spent some time in larger US corporations, I believe this is the case. Here's an example of what happened to me. Shortly after the previous US presidential election, while the candidates and their legions of lawyers were arguing their case in the court system, there was a joke going around the 'net purporting to be the new logo of the democratic party -- it was a crying baby. Not being a fan of Al Gore, I printed it out and posted it outside my cube.

One of my colleagues took offense at it and instead of coming to talk to me (or my boss) about it, he or she went to HR. Said picture was removed forthwith and I was "counseled" for having created a hostile workplace, bad mark placed in my personnel file, etc.

OFBSLF

[B Sousa]

"One of my colleagues took offense at it and instead of coming to talk to me (or my boss) about it, he or she went to HR. Said picture was removed forthwith and I was "counseled" for having created a hostile workplace, bad mark placed in my personnel file, etc."

That is normal in the U.S. workplace. Too bad you still cant just go and kick the :mad: out of folks like that. They were obviously Democrats. All the Attaboys in the world do not count when you get one Aw :mad: in your file. I had quite a lot.

[J.A.F.O.]

You should ( we ALL should) open doors for other people be they male, female, old, infirm, disabled because you have manners and were well brung up.
Perhaps I should point out that I had held a door open for an old guy when out shopping only about an hour before my previous post. Hence the "because I am a gentleman".

Anyway, must close now as I had a busy day shopping for presents for Mrs JAFOs birthday, looking after kids and cooking dinner. I must get some beauty sleep before going off to rescue kittens from tree tops (from the skids of the helicopter) tomorrow morning.

(How am I doing?)

:E

[Whirlybird]

Women know what they want. They want a man to be ruggedly handsome, devilishly charming, intelligent and sophisticated, witty, well-mannered and consideration, kind, gentle, able to talk about their feelings and emotions, be able to rescue small kittens from tree tops, rustle up a gourmet, candle-lit supper for two, be practical with woodwork and machinery as well as .......

Sounds good, Whirlygig. If you find a spare one, can I have him please. :ok:

[Shawn Coyle]

Two items to add this discussion:
One of the lady pilots I worked with at Transport Canada was married to a pilot for the RCMP - when I found this out, I commented to her that I hadn't known her husband was a pilot too. Her immediate reply was - "most of my female pilot friends are either single or married to pilots"- further discussion revealed that it appeared that most men didn't want to be married to someone who might be more technically competent than they were.
Second interesting point was in discussion with a very attractive female flight test engineer. My question was whether she had ever had experienced hassles working in what is an even more male domnated evironment (flight testing fast jet aircraft). Her comment was 'Only from those who are insecure'. Says it all.

[Whirlybird]

Shawn,

When I tell guys outside aviation that I'm a helicopter instructor they tell me I'm interesting, fascinating, and different......then they run very fast and very far in the other direction. :{ :{ :{

[Whirlygig]

Whirlybird

.... oh, so it happens to you too!

Cheers

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

Luckily my husband is a pilot too... and as it happens he's qualified for his PPL(H) before me, so I haven't dented his fragile ego! However when I got a higher Mark in one of my exams he was a bit miffed! lol! ;)

WhirlyGirl Sarah

[Blind]

If men run a mile when you tell them you are a helicopter instructor then why not tell them you are a librarian???

[Whirlygig]

How do you know if you have a helicopter pilot at your party?

Don't worry, she'll tell you!

Sorry Blind - can't help it any more than I can help talking with my hands.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Blind]

Actually it is the same for me, I start off not meaning to say it then always do in the end!!!!

People either don't beleive me which I find amusing, or ask really boring questions.:ok:

[Col]

I was harrassed working for a charitable organisation... it was a Director

I was 'encouraged' to keep things quiet (if I wanted to keep my job!) - SHE was asked to leave...

[moosp]

Not a heli-related story but with the increasing use of simulators in the rotary world, may I relate this.

23.00 sign on for a simulator check duty. One male, 50 years old, one checkee, female late twenties. This woman is on notification (i.e. has competence problems) and so this is a detail that will affect the future of her career.

The check captain provides his normal training input for a pilot in this situation, in this airline. That is, he busts his guts to enable him to give a pass rating. Checkee does not provide a suitable standard, so is debriefed appropriately and a fail is awarded.

Two days later a phone call invites check captain to tea and biccies. Informed that personel department have started an inquiry into the sexual harassment charges (detailed and graphic) against him. Training manager does a Pontious Pilate and washes his hands of the affair to personel.

One particular personal manager, against his directors wishes defends the check captain and suggests that this will not wear in court. Checkee backs off, all seems sweetness and light.

Now the twist. This check captain had watched the medical profession and seen how a male doctor will always require a female in the room when carrying out an examination on a woman. So he had activated the in-sim video and taken the tape home. It shows a normal training and checking session, with no inappropriate actions.

What to do? Counter sue, with the video in hand, or be counter- counter sued by the company for stealing company copywrite, ie the video?

I might add that this company has now effected a rostering system so that no male check pilot will be on his own with a female trainee/checkee in the simulator.

Sometimes I wish for the simpler days of honour and integrity, when managers would believe in you before the rest of the world.

[Whirlygig]

Sometimes I wish for the simpler days of honour and integrity, when managers would believe in you before the rest of the world.
Or when women wouldn't use sex as a weapon of revenge. Or when people could deal with a situation without resorting to the law courts.

Its a sad indictment on society when we have to go to these lengths.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Genghis the Engineer]

Looking on the bright side, it probably further justified failing the checkee - nobody with an attitude like that belongs on a flight deck.

G

[Whirlybird]

If men run a mile when you tell them you are a helicopter instructor then why not tell them you are a librarian???

A woman I know who is a North Sea helicopter pilot says she sometimes tells people at parties that she has a part time job at the airport - to save the amazement and silly questions. Maybe I should do something similar. But, like Whirlygig, I seem to find it hard not to start talking about aviation in the end. Even if it's only because someone comments about the weather, and I say there's a warm front coming in and that's why it's miserable and drizzly...well, even that seems to be a suspect comment and immediately brands me as something other than an "ordinary" female, apparently. Then the pilot bit comes out, and then they ask what I fly, and so....

[WhirlyGirl Sarah]

A woman I know who is a North Sea helicopter pilot says she sometimes tells people at parties that she has a part time job at the airport - to save the amazement and silly questions. Maybe I should do something similar. But, like Whirlygig, I seem to find it hard not to start talking about aviation in the end

Hey, you should be proud of who you are and what you do! I also find it impossible not to mention aviation and flying helicopters when I talk to people. It just seems to come out! A lot of people are quite amazed by it, the rest think I am a millionaire (which I am most definately not!).

You have achieved a great thing being able to fly/instruct. One day, when I get there I will be very proud and happy to know I am able to do something that others only dream about...

Hey, who wants to be "ordinary"?!

WhirlyGirl

[WestWind1950]

I might add that this company has now effected a rostering system so that no male check pilot will be on his own with a female trainee/checkee in the simulator.

I think such "necessities" sick!! I would think we were all sensible adults. Guess I think wrong.... :(

I remember when the first woman was supposed to go into space.... there was much to-do about her being "alone" with her fellow male astronauts... the "mixed environement". :mad:

When I started flying, I KNEW I was entering a man-dominated activity. Well, I either had to accept that fact or get out! I stayed on... got flirted with, got harassed, too.... but I NEVER got the idea of reporting it (ok, in one case I almost did). It would have meant more hassel then it was worth and gotten ME nowhere!

It took YEARS before Lufthansa had the first female pilots.... now they are common and no one thinks twice about it!! Unfortunately I was already too old by that time to join up :{

Westy

[J.A.F.O.]

Whirlygig
can't help it any more than I can help talking with my hands. Must make for interesting RT calls.:E

[Genghis the Engineer]

I remember when the first woman was supposed to go into space.... there was much to-do about her being "alone" with her fellow male astronauts... the "mixed environement".
Didn't she marry one of them a bit later?

G

[Blind]

A woman I know who is a North Sea helicopter pilot says she sometimes tells people at parties that she has a part time job at the airport - to save the amazement and silly questions.


Whirlybird.......are you talking about me or are there more of us up here than I thought???

[Whirlybird]

Blind,

Whirlybird.......are you talking about me or are there more of us up here than I thought???

Dunno, as I'm not sure who you are. If it's you who I stayed with in Dec 2001 and went out to the rigs with, then it's you I'm talking about! If not, then there must be at least two of you doing it!

So, if you're who you might be, you now know who I am. So why don't you pm me and let me know, so that I can stop (mis)quoting you on this forum. :D If can you follow that!

[goaround7]

Not so PC comment from some clever DICK in the Middle East when I asked for confirmation that Emirates don't take women pilots:


From 'flybystring':

Yes they do have girl pilots, they are the ones who call in sick if its raining in india/asia, its snowing in Europe and its windy just about anywhere, not to mention if the MSA is above sea level.