A plea from the heart......

[BN2A]

If any of you ATCO's happen to hear the callsign 'Exam 06' tomorrow afternoon, could you please give as much help as you can to a panicking and extremely nervous Instrument Rating Test student who will be working his b*11*cks off to do his best....
Route initially will be Cranfield to Daventry (130.92) and then onwards as requested by my examiner (probably to Brum, Coventry, East Mids, Cambridge, or Luton).

Many thanks, and I will be indebted to you for life!!!

BN2A
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Bright-Ling]

Hiss.....crackle....say again.....adopt the callsign speechless one.........say again......negative - turn LEFT.....Descend immediately.......avoiding action......remain outside.... etc etc

Don't worry....we'll now ALL be looking out for you!!!

Seriously, good luck for tomorrow. When you pass, come and visit. We'll show you the sectors and you can buy the tea!

[Numpo-Nigit]

Well, it won't be me controlling that route, but I'll pass the word. Best of luck anyway.

[DeltaTango]

GOOD LUCK :) :) :)

Just...take it easy..... ;)

DT

[Numpo-Nigit]

BN2A

Exam06 must be about the only Exam flight that I didn't see today. How did it go? Another satisfied customer I trust.

[BN2A]

Thanks all, especially the guy on 119.77!!! You did your bit, but my unwaving desire to religiously follow my planned headings despite the apparent change in wind direction from that forecast, meant I flunked the ILS and the NDB approaches.
Fail two sections = Fail test
Try again soon.
Thanks for your help. I did smile on the handover to Cambridge!!

BN2A
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[matspart3]

Bad luck BN2! better next time I hope.

Interested to hear you got a 'handover' to Cambridge though?...LATCC co-ordinating with airfields outside CAS?...Two of my IFR arrivals yesterday were 'freecalled' without so much as an estimate, both were within 5 minutes of my, albeit, training 'stack'. I accept that the trainers and the comparatively small amount of 'airways' traffic (mostly biz jets) that we get is probably more hassle than it's worth to Area...but just spitting them out can make airfields like mine look a bit silly!...The Citation who did 2 holds while a training Cherokee chugged round the procedure at the lowest level, wasn't best pleased. His delay/additional fuel costs reflect on my unit and could easily have been avoided if I'd have had an estimate. I have to say, that I feel there is something of a lack of understanding on the part of a significant number of NATS ATCO/ATSA's of the vaguaries of Procedural Approach Control in the FIR....comments anyone?

[Over+Out]

BN2 FL90 Good Luck for next time

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BN2A - I used to be at Kidlington and know what you've been through. It'll all be OK next time, don't worry. If it's any consolation to you the CAA examiners who students used to treat like God are reasonably close to being human..!!

Oh yea.. a little story - believed to have happened at Glasgow. A particularly irascible "Minair" Captain (IR examiner type) had some sort of heated exchange with ATC ending with him saying "What's the QNH". The Tower man in calm tones replied "The QNH is the pressure setting applied to the sub-scale of an altimeter which causes it to read the height above mean sea level of the aerodrome, plus the height of the altimeter above the ground". I understand that the result was fairly dramatic..

[This message has been edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR (edited 08 March 2001).]

[EarlyGo]

matspart3,

Cambridge, although outside the London TMA, is classed as a TMA airfield i.e. an airfield where inbound and outbound IFR procedures and standing agreements exist. Which is why Exam 06 was coordinated, the Cambridge controller having received an inbound estimate from a TC ATSA. In TC we're often busy with Oxford/ Cranfield/ Gloucester joining traffic, who receive a free service yet tie up a lot of our time, something they may not appreciate. Instead of bemoaning a lack of understanding on the part of NATS ATCOs/ATSAs of procedures in the FIR, why not come visit LATCC, you may find we're pretty busy with a few other things! A two-way exchange of views should lead to better mutual understanding, of what you need, and what we're working with.

We'll try and give the best service we can, but try and understand the overall picture.

EG

[eyeinthesky]

EG: With experience of the system from both ends, including an IR training flight to Cambridge in which I was left ridiculously high until just a few miles from CAM, I can concur with some of what you say.

With regard to the Cambridge problem as mentioned in this thread, I am aware of the standing agreements which require outbounds from Lorel to be climbed to min stack for presentation to NW Deps. However, standing agreements can be replaced by coordination, and if sticking to a S.A. means that an aircraft, whether training or not, is left at FL 90 (on a low pressure day) until 10 or so miles to go to Cambridge because the controller has not coordinated a descent or stopped the outbound at a lower level for whatever reason (lack of appreciation/interest being one) then we are not providing a service worthy of the name. If we did it at GW/SS/KK/LL we would soon be told to sort our ideas out.

IR training and exam flights are of course a relative nuisance because of the speed and level at which they operate, but we must remember that the guys are the airline pilots of the future (and therefore going to be there to bug you for many years), and the sooner they get from A-B and descend then the sooner they are out of (y)our hair. Did you know that if you refuse an IR training flight entry to CAS then the detail is effectively worthless as the experience of operating in the airways system is a vital part of the training?

You are however quite correct in the sentiment that we need more mutual understanding, and I think it is a great pity that more pilots, both training and qualified, do not come and visit LATCC and see what is involved. There is too much of the 'them and us' culture at present. By the same token, have you approached a training organisation recently and asked if you can go and sit in the back of an IR training flight to see it from their end and see the pressure the guy up there is under? He is in more need of our support than the two guys in a 737 with three autopilots and a glass cockpit to tell them where they are.

If you cost-share with me, I'll take you up and fly an airways route in a light twin and you can see what it's like. If so, leave contact details. :)


------------------
"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"

[This message has been edited by eyeinthesky (edited 08 March 2001).]

[Hurry Thru 9]

On TMA South EGTK-EGHH training flights are sometimes not cleared into CAS when OCK is busy and they go beneath.

Once had a CONC on a CPT SID at FL70 who was told to maintain due crossing Seneca at a level above.

[EarlyGo]

eyeinthesky,

Thanks for the info, I've updated my profile to include an email address.

P.S. I am NOT Father Jack!

[bookworm]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In TC we're often busy with Oxford/ Cranfield/ Gloucester joining traffic, who receive a free service yet tie up a lot of our time, something they may not appreciate. </font>

I was completely unaware that my enroute charges would be waived if I entered controlled airspace from Oxford/ Cranfield/ Gloucester! Can I have that in writing? :)

[RVR800]

The JAA IR test has been in place since Jan 1999

There is a much greater emphasis in the exam
nowadays on ATC liaison - especially
asking for early descent clearances to prevent rapid rates of descent greater than 1000 fpm which are not allowed in unpressurised public transport

[Stan Evil]

BookWorm - just fly an aircraft with an auw of &lt; 2000 kg and/or carry out a training flight (ie X on the flight plan and training in the remarks) that does not leave the UK FIR and there are no Eurocontrol charges.

Being in the IR training world, I'd like to say thanks to ATC for the service we get most of the time, especially at airfields like Birmingham and East Midlands where our slow pistons get juggled into the stream of jets and turbos.

[BN2A]

Scene 1, Take 2, Exam 08, Tuesday pm. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
Same question as before...
Cheers one and all,

BN2A

[Bright-Ling]

Good luck!!

Still waiting for our tea and 'sticky'!

[BN2A]

A *MAHOOSIVE* thanks to those of you who got me through from CFD to EMA, and then to CVT.

:) :)
I PASSED!!!! :)
:) :)

Now I can join the Jet Set for real (now there's a clue!!!!)

BN2A
;) ;) ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

BN2A - Bloody Magic!! Very many congratulations - you are now one of the elite. Hope to have the pleasure of delaying you some day... tee hee!! Take care...

[Wubble U]

Congratulations BN2A! Real pilots always take 2 attempts at the IRT!

I'd agree entirely with eyeinthesky's comments and implore all ATCOs to help out the unfortunate guys with an "Exam" callsign (though I know you do anyway!). Flying my Wonderbus is nowhere near as difficult as dealing with the IRT in a temperamental Seneca and these days I've no objection whatsoever to being vectored round the skies to make way for an "Exam". Personally I owe a great debt of gratitude to the controllers of Aberdeen Radar who sheperded me through a very marginal IRT - there's no way in the world you're gonna find GRICE without good vectors!

As a post-script I'd like to add my comiserations to anyone who may ever have to deal with Lossie Radar whilst under test. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif