Formation arrivals

[BeauMan]

Hi all,

I have a theroretical situation which I'd like to put to you all and ask for some advice as to whether it's feasible and if so, what would need to be done in order to make it happen.

* At some point next summer, a loose vic formation of five dissimilar GA aeroplanes, ranging in size / power from Cub to Cessna 172 / PA28, possibly a bit more.

* Formation to arrive at an airshow venue as visiting aircraft, but not participants.

* Formation to run in straight and level from a point ten miles out, at not less than 1000 feet and at speed of slowest aircraft.

* Formation to make one pass along the runway on arrival, then break into the circuit to land individually (I hate using the term run in and break, makes it sound a bit too gung ho for my liking)

* Potentially also a sixth aircraft carrying out air to air photography along the approach.

Sounds pretty easy, but it's a completely new area for me, so I want to try and find out whether it's actually achievable. I have a couple of initial questions to begin with, but I'm sure as answers come in I'll find myself having to ask further questions... Anyway, here goes:

1 - would the pilots of the aircraft need to hold Display Authorisations?

2 - What legal requirements are there for a formation arrival, in terms of dissimilar aircraft types, pilot currency in formation flying.

As I say, it's just a basic germ of an idea at the moment, which may or may not come to fruition. If it does, it will be around mid summer next year. Interested to hear any and all thoughts and advice from all quarters on this...

Ta,

BeauMan

[Mike Cross]

Art 70 of the ANO, available here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF) is your first port of call.
‘Flying display’ means any flying activity deliberately performed for the purpose of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an advertised event open to the public

[DFC]

My first question regarding such an operation is;

Why are you making the first of such flights at an airshow/ large gathering of people?

Not saying that it could be but to an independent observer, "showing off" would be high on the list of posibilities and that is something you must ensure that it is not.

Ask yourself why aircraft fly in formation and what the advantages/disadvantages of such an operation are especially with dissimilar types involved.

Unless you have practiced the procedures well then a busy airfield (airshow or not) is the last place you what to try it out.

If on the other hand, you and your friends are in the habit (practice) of operating as a formation (perfectly legal) then provided that you were simply arriving at the aerodrome in the way you normally do (formation break into the circuit perhaps) then IMHO no display authorisation is required.

Have plenty of practice before hand somewhere quiet and it will work out better on the day.

Remember that the formation break is only one method of arrival, it is not unusual for a formation to stream while some distance out and perform a standard join one after the other.

Regards,

DFC

[twizzle]

I am sure a formation arrival at an Air Display would be classed as a Display Item and require a Display Authorisation.
Each pilot must hold a formation DA and lead pilot,a formation lead DA.

Robb Metcalf at CAA will give you the definitive answer.

[trevelyan]

This (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=136999) is also worth a read for anyone thinking of doing any type of formation flying without proper tuition...

[Send Clowns]

No idea about the law for this one, but some points on any formation from the thread Trevelyan ponted to that may help to summarize.

1) What do you mean by formation? 100 yards apart as mentioned by one contributor is a long way, and as long as radio calls and formation entering and leaving procedures are briefed beforehand should not be a danger to an experienced pilot. I would not, however, consider that close formation, and aircraft are far enough apart that they would require separate lookout.

2) Close formation is very different, requiring all other pilots to focus very much on the leader, and I would suggest must be taught.

3) The law in the UK is a little more slack than any advice I would give. Always err on the side of caution and take training and advice from someone experienced who does not have a reputation for flying close to the edge of his or her capabilities.

Finally I would add that although training is required, and it should be from a specialist, it need not be as daunting as it may sound here. In the military we flew solo formation with minimum spacing a few feet, up to bank angles of 60 degrees (never more of course, without formation aerobatic training, he says as his nose gets even bigger) in light aircraft such as Chipmunks, Bulldogs, Grobs or Fireflies. The rejoin was for a true run in and break. This was after a good 3 hours of dual training.

The skills can be learnt quickly by a good pilot, as long as you listen well to the ground briefings and understand the safety procedures.

Anyone disagree?

[BeauMan]

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice, be it on here or via PM's; it's all greatly appreciated.

As I'd said in the original post, this was really just intended as a "What if...?" question, which would either tell me such a thing may be feasible after 'x' amount of training and legislation, or would not be feasible at all.

Given the answers received so far, which have helped me to increase my understanding of such matters, I can see that the idea is a no-go.

Still, it hasn't been an entirely pointless exercise, as I've learned a lot from you all, and been given some pointers which may well become useful for me at a later date.

Thanks all,

BeauMan

[Flyin'Dutch']

Formation flying, something I have very little experience with, is good fun and extremely intense.

Don't be put off by the postings here but do get proper tuition before embarking upon anything like it.

Have fun

FD

[trevelyan]

agree with FD, my link wasnt to put you off, just to give you more info from the people who know all about this stuff.

If you want to persue it, pm greeners or andy cubin and let them fill you in on formation flying, and how one of their courses can help you understand what its all about.

If you want the relevant info / links/ numbers pm, id be happy to help.

Regards:ok:

[LowNSlow]

If the Cub is a 65hp one I'd leave it out as he/she will be flat out at 65 knots and everybody else will be wobbling along with their flaps down.

[formationfoto]

Beauman
I was wondering this myself recently. There are, I think, two pijnts which are being picked up here. the first is the sense of formation flying in a large group of dissimilar aircraft and quite simply without extensive training and practice and building up to groups of four ship or similar just dont do it. I regularly fly fourship with very different aircraft in the box and it takes a lot of planning particularly around speed and energy management.

The second question is one of legality and i have yet to ask the question of the person i was going to approach but my reading is that you are allowed to fly at the location of an air display within the heights / distances provided it is not part of the display and is 'normal aviation practice'. It is the question of what is normal which I think needs some interpretation. I have been at air displays where either individual or a small formation of non displaying aircraft arrived for a low pass and then landed. Some of the pilots were DA holders but this is not relevant in this case as they were not part of the display (ie the display was authorised for a specific number of acts).

I am not aware of anyone being taken to task by the CAA after having done this and I know that they were aware.

That suggests to me that in pracfice the CAA does not regard this as actionable although I am not sure this is much of a defence if your formation flying is ragged and you touch causing props and engines to spray the crowd.

[NATCA A80]

Beauman,

I would suggest first of all coordinating with the local air field or air show boss to arrange for the fomation flight arrival. I would strongly recommend everyone arriving at a nearby airport, then departing together at a coordinated time from that airport to the airport where the show is being held.

The question is do you guys plan to land as a flight or land seperately, this detail needs to be worked out prior to arriving. With prior coordination and attention to details just about anything can be worked out.

Mike
NATCA A80

[Tarnished]

For goodness sake get some proper instruction and practice under your belts before even contemplating the "big match" temprement that accompanies any sort of "display".

Instruction should ideally come from someone who has at least learnt in the military if not instructed in the military. Take up the offers made earlier in this thread.

Formation is easier the closer you are to the leader (less relative movement) during manoeuvres. It is not something that just happens, its a bit like hearding cats.

As far as I am concerned the definition of a display as it applies to your formation arrival, you need to ask the question why are you doing this rather than a simple straight in approach?? Sure as eggs are eggs, that's what the fun police will be asking.

If you want to do it, do it properly.

PPPPP

Prior Planning (or permission or practice) Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance

Regards

T