stealth

[bigflyingrob]

Well we Brits have finally outdone the yanks at last. We now not only have a stealth aircraft that cannot be seen in broad daylight at 50 yds we also have a 350 yd runway complete with windsock that is invisible too!
Well if Sundays performance is anything to go by this is tested and proven. We fly from a private strip 5 miles from Elstree and about once a month they alter their "circuit" to overfly us. Now I always found taking off into wind to be a good idea so I ended up head to head with 5 aircraft on exactly my height. We were seperated about 200 yds horizontally but there was no sign the first pilot had seen me.
On returning to the strip I ended up about 50 yds from one as I desended towards the strip. I have seen white van man with better lookout ! Just because you are on radio does not mean you do not need to look out of the window ! Plaistows is on the map and about 800 yds from their circuit pattern as well. Presumably the R22 that collided with the Raven about 3 miles further north was on radio too.!

[MadamBreakneck]

Ah, bigflyingrob,
Didn't you know :rolleyes: that it's a rule when flying from a club near the M25 that you have to fly your circuit outside the ATZ? I've encountered similar near another one round the corner. I think it's probably something to do with working the way around all the noise objectors that live in that area.

I suppose the correct technique must be to join in their traffic pattern, then when you get downwind do a quick duck out of circuit onto your own runway.

Any comments from the non-microlight community on how to handle this problem?

:confused:

[ThePirateKing]

MadamBreakneck,

You've obviously never flown from Denham. My instructor told me that if you can get around the circuit at Denham in one piece with all the checks done, you can fly anywhere. Its... umm... small! :D

TPK:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

Bigflyingrob, I wonder if your aircraft are fitted with a radio? If they are, I would hope (but we all live in hope...) that a call on Elstree's frequency would resolve the issue by making other pilots aware of your position and intentions, even if they are too busy/ignorant/incompetent to be looking out the window (or if they are looking out but simply don't see you, as very often happens)?

If you are non-radio then, of course, this is not an option.... Perhaps in that case you could fly your circuit and approach below the Elstree circuit? I don't know the area sufficiently well to know if that's safe or not.

FFF
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[Genghis the Engineer]

A quick look on the chart shows me that Plaistows, and Big Rob's strip at London Colney are 2nm+ outside of the Elstree ATZ. I've also flown from Rob's strip, and am quite sure that Elstree is not even readily visible from it's circuit.

It does beg the question of what any piston engined aircraft is doing that far outside of it's own ATZ in the circuit. One of-course has to sympathise with the need for noise abatement, but not when it takes aircraft into another aerodrome's traffic pattern - however little used. Particularly if tihis takes them opposite to the direction of traffic (which, as Rob ways, is inevitable if he's taking off into wind, and they are downwind).

As for radio calls - it's a microlight strip, which means that they will have single radios (if at-all). The onus should surely be the other way - for Elstree traffic, outside of the Elstree ATZ (and thus, in my book at-least, outside the circuit) to change to 129.825 microlight general use frequency and notify Colney of it's intentions as well as keeping a good lookout and taking avoiding action if required.

G

[Penguina]

bigflyingrob:

If it's really the circuit people who are overflying you like that, then either the pilots are solo students or there is an instructor on board. It's a lot rarer to get unsupervised PPLs in there - reason given is the same one given for the proportions of the circuit in the first place...

If so, you could point out to Cabair and Firecrest that you're there and ask that the instructors bear this in mind.

The way you obfuscate the exact whereabouts of your strip suggests to me that (quite understandably) you don't want to draw attention to it, but if you're really that close to such a busy aerodrome then maybe it's a good idea. Not that I'm saying this absolves people from a normal good lookout, mind!
:)

Have just read Genghis's post and now know exactly where bigflyingrob's strip is. I don't think there's any of the many and generously proportioned Elstree circuits that go out quite that far! It could be aircraft joining on right base for 26, in which case they may not be training aircraft. I've seen you there and see aircraft go in and out of it, but normally much lower than Elstree traffic tends to be operating at.

Given that Colney doesn't seem to be on the map, I'm not sure how Elstree pilots are expected to know that they need to tune into the microlight frequency briefly before re-entering their own ATZ...

[Tarnished]

I maybe missing the point here but for two aircraft to get within 200yards and then 50 yards of each other I take it that you must have been happy to do so BFG. Where do your responsibilities for look out begin and end??

I would have thought if you took off and came straight head on with these 5 aircraft you would have been better placed to see them than them to see you. You would be looking up with a sky backdrop, they would have been looking down with a much more difficult task to pick you out from whatever surrounds your strip.


Lookout is everybody's responsibility, no matter where they are or what they are doing. For you to have come within 50 yards of another aircraft your lookout must not have been up to scratch yesterday either.

Every aircraft has blind spots, you need to be aware of where they are on your kite and adjust your scan pattern accordingly.

Be careful out there folks

T