Daft question - unlicensed runways

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As we know, the only daft question is the one you didn't ask before you set off so here goes ...

Where do I look up what's the difference between a licensed runway and an unlicensed runway (at an airfield that also has licensed runways)?

[Atlas Shrugged]

GTW,

Not sure what you mean. In AUS I've not heard of individual runways being subject to licensing requirements, but rather the Aerodrome or Aeroplane Landing Area. All licensed aerodromes and some ALA's are listed in our EnRoute Supplement (which is probably not much use to you over there)

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/aip/ersa/b1intro.pdf

AS

[Final 3 Greens]

Gertude

have you tried the AIP?

[LowNSlow]

No training flights from an unlicensed runway?

[matspart3]

An unlicensed runway doesn't meet all the appropriate criteria in CAP168, the UK Licensing document. This includes a raft of things from surface slopes, strip widths, signage and markings or obstacles in the vicinity. An unlicensed runway cannot be used for training or public transport flights, but if you need to know the specifics of a particular runway, you're probably best asking the Aerodrome operator.

[Mike Cross]

All licensed a/d's appear in the UK AIP.

If you look at http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/302BK01.PDF for example (Sywell) you will see in "Aerodrome Regulations" that only r/w 03/21 is licensed for night use.

If you look at http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aerodromes/302KA01.PDF (Shoreham) under "Use of Runways" you will see that 02/20 (grass) is unlicensed.

Also on the ICAO aerodrome chart 02/20 (grass) is clearly marked as unlicensed.

You will need to log in to see these files. If you don't have a login just go to http://www/ais.org.uk and click the Subscribe link (it's free)

You will also need Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your machine (available free from www.adobe.com)

The site is a great source of free up-to date info including printable aerodrome charts and approach plates.

Hope this is helpful.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

All licensed a/d's appear in the UK AIP. Thanks, yes I've noted that the AIP gives more detail for licensed runways than for unlicensed runways at the same airfield, I've worked out that it's a good idea to give someone a call before trying to use an unlicensed runway, and I'm assuming that the difference is explained somewhere in the AIP (in terms of what things you can assume hold good for a licensed runway that do not necessarily hold for an unlicensed runway), but I'm afraid that my attempts to search the AIP have not always been terribly successful. Hence this post, wondering if someone can point me at the right bit.

[vintage ATCO]

You will not find anything in the AIP regarding unlicensed aerodromes or runways. The requirements for a licensed aerodrome (and therefore runway) are in CAP168 Licensing of Aerodromes. An unlicensed aerodrome does not have to meet these requirements but may well do. The only way to find out is to telephone the particular aerodrome and ask.

CAP428 Safety Standards at Unlicensed Aerodromes may be of interest (available on the CAA website.)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

CAP168 Licensing of Aerodromes Thanks! - that sounds like exactly the sort of answer I was hoping for.

(Plus, I suppose, any comment on whether it was safe to assume that a club's insurance covered landing on unlicensed runways unless otherwise stated, or whether it was prudent to assume that a club's insurance didn't cover landing on unlicensed runways unless otherwise stated. For a specific example, of course, I'd ask.)

[Mike Cross]

I'm afraid that my attempts to search the AIP have not always been terribly successful.
No problem.

Go to the AIS site www.ais.org.uk
After logging in click on publications, then on UK AIP.
Click on the link that says The UK AIP Package
Then hover over UK AIP, UK AIP again, Aerodrome Data/ Aerodromes Specific

This gives you an alphabetic list of all the UK licensed a/d so you can click on the one you want.

What might be catching you out is that there is quite a wait during which it appears that nothing is happening when you download a pdf document. Adobe Reader doesn't fire up until the download is complete and can take a while if you don't have broadband.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

No no, I can find specific aerodromes, it's answers to questions like "at a licensed aerodrome, what's the difference between a licensed runway and an unlicensed runway" that I sometimes have trouble searching for.

[Zlin526]

How about this:

Licensed aerodrome = An aerodrome holding a CAA aerodrome License & fulfilling certain criteria such as dimensions, slope, clearway, lighting, fire cover, ATC, facilities etc.

Unlicensed aerodrome = any other site including farmers fields etc

:)

[Squadgy]

No no, I can find specific aerodromes, it's answers to questions like "at a licensed aerodrome, what's the difference between a licensed runway and an unlicensed runway" that I sometimes have trouble searching for.


GTW - For an airfield to be licenced it has to meet specific criteria laid down by the CAA in CAP168 - this will include things like Rescue and Fire Fighting Cover & Emergency Planning, Airfield Inspection regime, Bird Control, Taxyway Signage etc.

For a runway to be licenced it too has to meet certain criteria laid down in CAP168 - this includes the physical quality of the runway, the distance between the runway centreline and obstructions and from the threshold to obstructions, lighting etc.

The CAA carry out annual inspections at all licenced airfields, during this inspection the licenced runways are measured and obstructions noted, the offical LDA, TORA, TODA etc taken from these measurments - if the runway is unlicenced then the measurements are unoffical and LDA, TORA and TODA can't be published.

It is possible for an aerodrome to be licenced but for one of its runways not to meet or, be assessed for, the licencing criteria - this is why you could have a licenced airfield, but with one of the runways being unlicenced.


I suppose, any comment on whether it was safe to assume that a club's insurance covered landing on unlicensed runways unless otherwise stated, or whether it was prudent to assume that a club's insurance didn't cover landing on unlicensed runways unless otherwise stated.

The club I sometimes rent from requires that the CFI authorises landings on unlicenced runways.

Our Group aircraft's policy requires that the pilot is familiar with the unlicenced runway before using it.


Hope this makes sense :ok:[

[FlyingForFun]

Matspart3 said:An unlicensed runway cannot be used for... public transport flightsI don't think this is quite true. Otherwise, flights to and from oil rigs, for example, would not be legal, since these are rarely (if ever) licensed.

I believe the rule is that a public transport flight must either start or end at a licensed airfield. The purpose of the rule is primarily to stop pleasure flight companies from operating from unlicensed fields. I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere - I think it was in my ATPL notes - but I can't find it again now, so someone please correct me if it's wrong.

FFF
------------

[Squadgy]

The purpose of the rule is primarily to stop pleasure flight companies from operating from unlicensed fields

Possible for helicopter pleasure flights - but they will usually have there own RFFS cover.

I think the rule is mainly to ensure fare paying pax are covered by adequate fire cover etc. You will sometimes see 'Airfield not for use by Public Transport flights requiring a licenced airfield' on AIP entries for licenced airfields.

[The Nr Fairy]

Talking about helicopters here, but any pleasure flying from a non-airfield site must a) have your own fire cover if more than 5 takeoff and 5 landings (10 movements) and b) must notify the CAA 5 (or is it 7) working days prior of the location.

[daw]

Just to reiterate be very careful to check fully the insurance requirements when operating from an unlicensed airfield. The club I am a member of has a very hefty insurance excess (think over £1,000) payable by the PIC should a mishap occur at an unlicensed airfield whereas I think it is zero should the unthinkable happen at a licensed one. Have a feeling that the club rules might also have something to say about it as well.