Becoming an Instructor & related FI questions

[LAFalot]

Anyone got any info regarding the health of the UK instructing market? Thinking of going this way next year, so any constructive remarks on good places to do the course and good places to try and find work would be appreciated. Also rates of pay for freelancing. Cheers...

[Huwey]

As on FI(H)R...AFI(H) in none JAR speak ibelieve there are not enough QHI's to go around. With a NVQ going and the introduction of the relatively new JAR PPL(H,), it has taken the helicopter training industry some to adjust. I belive (taking the two schools I work for as a yard stick), that we are over the worst now as far as its introduction goes. Schools now feel more confident in discussing the 'new' JAR PPL(H) to prospective students.

I think the long term picture should be good if you do go the instructing route - the cost of getting there on a self sponsor ticket seems to be more and more unrealistic for too many people who would otherwise have considered instructing under the old system.

I assume that you've already got 300+ hrs and a CPL (H) - the PPL(H) +200hrs P1 before instructor course route died with the intro of JAR -grrrrrrr!!!) Good luck!

[LAFalot]

Huwey, thanks for your reply. You mentioned that NVQ may be available for the Instructor's course - do you know any details about this?

[Simonjknightuk]

Guys...advice please.

Am starting down CPL(H) path and really want to instruct at the end of it all. I even have the lucky offer of "interested parties" once all is said and done. Any R22 instructors out there care to give me a ball park figure of possible earnings?

Cheers

[Michael Jupp]

it's a long path,155 hours before the 35 hr commercial flying course,theoretical exams (if you can find a school,as yet i think JAR are still running ATPL(A) with helicopter add ons only) hour building to 300 hrs .then 25 hrs for instructor rating +100 ish ground school.
After all that you can look to earn 30-40 £ a flying hour.
having said all that i does seem there is demand at the moment for instructors after the glut of 2 years ago
good luck

[Robbo Jock]

In that case:
I'm based Derby, got the CPL(H) and would like to get an Instructor's ticket. Anyone know of a good place within striking distance?

[staticdroop]

Am also looking to step down that road and was wondering if you know who requires instructors. Reccomend a copy of BHAB handbook, it is ideal for all the questions of who does what were and with whom.

[Robbo Jock]

That, presumably, involves handing fistfuls of Filthy Lucre to the BHAB?

[Whirlybird]

Nah, only a little bit of Filthy Lucre. I'm another wannabe instructor, and I got one about a week ago, and it cost me all of £7.50. It has lots of potentially useful info, and even lots of pictures of helicopters. Details are on their website.

[Helinut]

While the BHAB Handbook is OK, there are many flying schools that are not members and therefore not listed. If you go to the CAA SRG website, there is a pdf file of FTOs and TRTOs at:
<a href="http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf</a>
This should give you a fairly good list of both places to do your instructor rating and/or places to instruct once you have the rating. However, the CAA list is not complete and out of date, so it does not contain all the schools. Try copies of Flyer and Pilot too.

The instructor who does your instructor training is key. Do spend time talking to him/her?; the course is very intense and you will need to get on.

When it comes to getting work, an outfit is likely to look more favourably on you if you have spent some money with them and if they know you.

I was talking to a couple of CFIs recently, and they both mentioned that there was a difficulty getting new instructors.

Good Luck

[t'aint natural]

I'm an instructor, AFI, London-area, and work is very thin on the ground.

[muffin]

Robbo

If you want to borrow my copy of the BHAB handbook, e mail me direct. I am only 10 miles from Derby.

[elpirata]

SJK,

I would like to start by disagreeing with your initial premise, I was lucky enough to get an instructor rating under the old system i.e. on my PPL, and having done more than 1000 hours instructing you will find that it is ok but you will want to move on to the next challenge, i.e more and bigger types on your licence plus commercial flying, instructing is a great way to increase your experience and pass on your skills but in itself it is quite limiting.
expect difficulty getting started. e.g i did 30 hours in the first 6 months (all trial lessons)and 200 hours i the next six months, i was running about 500 hours a year when i finished which equates to £20k pa.

it is harder to find work when you are a new instructor FI(H) (resticted), because you need cover from a senior instructor, so he/she really needs to have a program before you do.
much easier to find work when your instructor rating is upgraded because you can work unsupervised (t'aint natural - work is available around london for a FI(H) (unrestricted,
however gettting the restriction removed is tougher than it used to be - in particular you have to supervise 25 solos, as well as do 100 hours instruction, 25 solos takes ages believe me, way over 100 hours normally, i reckon i must have done about 300-400 before i had done 25, you really need active help from the senior instructor to help you get the upgrade.

dont give up it may take time but you will succeed, you must be flexible (i.e travel at shirt notice long distances to do 1 or 2 trial lessons), if you say no to work they will ask someone else first next time

i have done various types of helicopter flying now and the thing that keeps it interesting is doing varied stuff, so dont set your sites too low.

hope this helps

[Robbo Jock]

Thanks for the input, folks. £7.50's not bad, I'll get in touch with BHAB, Whirly. Ta for the CAA link, Helinut - I'll have a dekko after posting this. And thanks for the reality check, elpirata. Always a good idea to keep one's eyes open. I was thinking of part-timing initially, so it may be a while building the instructional hours for me.

Muffin, I'd noticed you're location is Ashbourne and was thinking of getting in touch, but I'm awful shy. I'll fling you an e-mail - not to borrow the book, just to chew the fat.

[Helinut]

SJK,

elpirata's story is IMHO realistic. The restricted instructor is of limited use to a flying school. It is also useful to remember that, wonderful as "free" flying is, the school assumes you are working. Most schools are looking for some one prepared to add lots of non-flying hours to the valuable flying hours for which an instructor is paid.

[t'aint natural]

Elpirata: Spot on about the 25 solos. After three years I have 17, out of over 400 hours instruction (part-time). In theory I can only send my own strudents solo (as a part-timer I simply don't "own" any) and I can't authorise their first solo or their qualifying cross country. How long before I get the other eight? If ever.

[Simonjknightuk]

Thanks guys for the candid responses...
ok, what can a pilot with frozen ATPH earn on the North Sea Rig runs? Its the other end of the scale but at least you can come back to instructing later I suppose!
Cheers

[Moneyshot]

Ladies and Gentlemen
I am an airline pilot (ex-RN rotary) and for some time have held an ATPL (HG) with a type rating on the R 22 (AFI). I have tried several times to obtain gainful employment on a freelance basis as an instructor at several schools around the London area (Stansted based). I've not had much success as I believe instructor jobs are either jealously guarded or just not there in the first place.
For me, such a position would be ideal especially for when things are a bit slack over the winter period. I would also be interested in any charter work and quite willing to obtain a type rating on the B206 or twin squirrel if the work could be guaranteed.
Please can anyone help me? All comments (even rude) welcome.

[t'aint natural]

Moneyshot: I too do AFI work here and there around London, and the plain fact is there aren't enough students coming forward to keep everyone in business. We British contrive to make learning to fly difficult, expensive and unrewarding, and especially so with helicopters. It's not that the jobs are "jealously guarded." People who have them are by and large keen to move up.
Keep trying. You're better qualified than most, and I'm sure you'll find something now that the weather is picking up. It's the Bank Holiday weekend - anyone who can't sell flying time this weekend should give up.

[Moneyshot]

T'aint
Thanks for that . That's more or less what I thought. Unfortunately I've got to do my main job this weekend but I'll take any opportunity to do do some real flying. It's a shame that fixed wing is where the money is!!

[StevieTerrier]

Moneyshot. Perhaps this should be posted on the Instructor forum for their opinions?..

Jealously guarded AFI jobs? That is only to be expected. Many of the AFIs around havent been lucky/priveledged/hard working* (delete as necessary) enough to have your helicopter background. They are freelance, trying to build hours for their chosen career - in helicopters - and probably getting the hours in at an abysmally slow rate.

Now imagine that you come along. An airline pilot earning £40/50/60k whatever p.a. And you want to take some of those few precious hours away from them, not because you need them, but because your day-job is boring. Mmmmmmmmm. Going to be about as popular as a f~rt in a spacesuit, aren't you?

Now then, if you wanted a full-time commercial pilot / AFI job, I'm sure you could get one no bother. Depends which is most important to you, job satisfaction or the money, and I think you've answered that yourself!

From an AOC point of view, I get a lot of requests from airline / mil pilots for part-time work. The fact is that, like most small operators, we could use freelance pilots in the summer months as back-up for the full-time boys, but we are not going to waste time and money base + line checking people who are going to have limited availability. Now, if the CAA would allow all commercial pilots to have one base / line check that covered all AOC operators, rather than the current idiotic set-up, we could set up a pool of people like yourself safe in the knowledge that if we needed a freelancer, there wpuld definiteley be one who was on a day off.

But thats another story...

[captjimmy]

Nice 1 StevieT.
I think you have said what a lot of people are thinking.
Stick to your plank Moneyshot!!

[Moneyshot]

OK guys I only asked.
It would appear that I've hit a raw nerve somewhere. Maybe I am some sort of over-qualified super git but we're all helicopter guys together..... right. I have my set of circumstances and you have yours. It's not my fault that students are in short supply because no-one can afford to fly helicopters. Given the choice,money aside, I would rather fly helicopters anyway. I guess there's no help coming. I'll just go back to my plank and forget about the idea. cheers guys.

[Whirlybird]

Moneyshot,

I think the reaction of some of my helicopter flying colleagues here is a little over the top. We don't all feel that way, and I'm one of the instructor wannabes who I suppose would have a right to. But I don't see your situation as much different from mine. OK, you're an airline pilot who'd rather fly helicopters; I'm a freelance researcher/writer who'd rather fly helicopters; we have at least a couple of IT consultants who post here who'd rather fly helicopters. And some of us want the best of both worlds, ie to only do it part time if possible as we know it's insecure and badly paid. It's not as though you'd be taking a job away from some poor starving unqualified 18 year old - unlikely anyway. If you got an instructing job I was after I'd be disappointed, but you'd be better qualified and that's life. It's not fair, but not much in life is. So I hope you get an instructing job, if that's what you want. And I hope you come back and read this; I tried to e-mail you, but it looks like I can't.

[tigerpic]

Moneyshot: You can't hang around one area and expect to get a job. Helicopters & jobs are scattered all over the globe, with a few exceptions. I have moved around in Scandianvia, North and South America since '97 to keep my career going. I am about to move again within a few weeks. Muhammed has to go to the mountain. I think that this will go on until I hit around 3,000 hours. My ultimate goal is to fly EMS in the cold north, and to achieve that -> sacrifice!!! :mad:

cheers

tigerpic :D

[Moneyshot]

OK that's made me feel much better. I really hope that all of you get as much reward out of flying these beasts as I did in the RN. Just saw some crabs on the TV in Afghanistan flying the Royal Marines around in Chinooks. They should be paying to do that!!!! And one of them was a girl. Oh my word!!

[Whirlybird]

Moneyshot,

Do you have a problem with GIRLS flying helicopters? Be careful; I might take back all I said!

[Moneyshot]

Oops .. Nope, I think girls are great. Some of the most naturally gifted pilots around are girls obviously. Sorry, didn't really want to go there!

[Whirlybird]

That's better! :) :) :) :) :)

[nonradio]

Any body have any stats, real or anecdotal regarding the number of heli FI courses run in the UK since JAR implementation?

[Helinut]

Anecdotally, a number of FI course instructors tell me that the numbers are way down, which is no surprise.

There was a peak before JAR FCL came in with many people getting in before the entry requirements became more difficult. Also, in practice you now need to get your CPL(H) before FI rating so people may be concentrating on that before (possibly) doing the FI course.:(

My guess is that the numbers will be permanently down, but JAR FCL has also reduced the number of people starting PPL(H)s, so there is less work for instructors too.:(

[sycamore]

Anyone recommend a good school to do the QHI bit(apart from CFS) in the south-easten area,and an idea of costs/hours that it would take to get an old QFI into fling-wing talking mode(enquiring on behalf of a friend!):p

[3top]

check out www.helipan.com

:) 3top

[Palma]

Call Mike Bowden, Operations Director at Sloane Helicopters, on 01604 790595 or Email:- [email protected].

They are the best...............

[Heliport]

sycamore

I'm sure you realise some replies to posts of this type are genuine and some are not quite as independent and objective as the people who write them would like you to believe. ;)
Factors worth looking at:
* How many posts has the person made? If only a few, how many were plugging the same school?
* If someone posts not only the name/location of the school, but also the tel number, and the website/e-mail address, and the name of the CFI or similar, it's time to be just a little cautious.

Good Luck!
Heliport

[Moneyshot]

Agreed but try Cambridge Helicopters. Very friendly and Professional, chap's a panel examiner and advertises in Pilot.

[Helinut]

You should make your own mind up, but I would suggest that you talk to Mike Green at FAST at Thruxton as well as any other options. If possible, I would suggest that the instructor course is best done with another student. You can share experiences and practice on each other. It is, or should be, an intense course as well as very enjoyable.

Incidentally, the course normally gives you a resticted instructor ticket - you have to jump through various experience "hoops" before you get the equivalent of a QHI.

[Whirlybird]

By early next year I should have the hours, and hopefully the money, to do an instructors course. Does anyone have any recommendations for good places/people to do this with (in the UK)? Or anyone you definitely WOULDN'T recommend. Email me privately if you prefer for the latter!

[misterbonkers]

You can get a list from CAA website.

I think Tiger helis do one, i guess they're kinda not far from your doorstep.

Most of the instructors that I know did they're AFIC course with Geoff Day who freelances to several schools. I can give you his number if you want, just drop us an email and i'll send numbers to you.

You do know that you must a) pass the commercial exams to be an instructor, b) doubt your sanity to let people try and kill you, c) wise to do your commercial either instead or as well.

[The Nr Fairy]

I think Whirlybird may be giving Tiger a miss as far as AFI courses go.

How about my neck of the woods ? Thruxton - one organisation in particular springs to mind . . .

And I think your points (a) and (c) are complied with.

[Heliport]

Whilybird
The three places I've heard consistently recommended are:

Mike Smith at HeliAir (Wellesbourne)
Dennis Kenyon at Shoreham
Fast Helicopters at Thruxton.

[Lefthanddown]

Whirlybird

I have only had experience of Mike Smith and Mike Green at Fast and anyone who gets taught by either of these two is gaining some quality instruction from two very very experienced men.

Good luck

[Moneyshot]

Give Philip Sheldon at Cambridge Helicopters a try. Seems to be the Obewan Kanobe on the R22

[Woss goin on..?]

Ditto Philip Sheldon.

Very professional course, very knowledgable and will keep you talking for hours!

[Up & Away]

No contest..
There is only one.

Philip Sheldon at Cambridge Helicopters
(of Aeromega Helicopters, Stapleford and now also at Fenland)

He is in demand so book him if you can....

:) ;) :)

[Heliport]

Here we go. It didn't take long. :rolleyes:

Fortunately, I'm confident Whirlybird is wise enough to sort out the genuine, independent recommendations. ;)

[Helinut]

The AFI (oops FI(R)) course is a major undertaking. For me it was the most instructive "rating" I ever did. It taught me a lot about flying as well as how to instruct and I learnt about myself as well. It is really much more than just a simple rating too - it opens up a complete new dimension to flying, not to mention an opportunity to fly without cost and even earn money from it!!

Who you choose is key - others have mentioned some of the more obvious names. I would recommend most of those explicitly or implicitly ID'd by previous threads, except perhaps one of them. Even in a rumour network there comes a point where you have to make your own personal choice, because the most successful choice depends upon matching personalities.

Before you decide you should go and talk at length to your potential instructor, and preferably fly with him too. Everyone gets on better with some people than others. (I am not sure but I do not think that there are any female instructor instructors yet)

The course is/should be very intense. I would strongly recommend that you try and do your course with another student instructor. Working as a pair with the instructor gives more opportunities to do "mutual" briefing and flying. It can also avoid some of the artificiality of pretending to "teach" a flying guru to fly.

Finally, you are more likely to get that elusive opportunity to instruct at a school that has solid links with the person who taught you to instruct. He will know you by the end of the course quite well, and be able to advise potenial employers how you are likely to turn out as an instructor.

Good luck, and above all ENJOY IT.

[Up & Away]

The Moderators comment needs explaining please

[Whirlybird]

Many many thanks everyone. I'm just back from Farnborough after two PPRuNe-less days (but lots of useful helicopter-related discussions), and it was great to find so many recommendations on my return. Two or three names keep coming up again and again, both on and off PPRuNe, and I should probably go to one of them. But...

The school I've done most of my recent flying with may be starting instructors courses soon. I get on really well with the chief instructor. I did my CPL flying with him, and although I found it hard, he was never a part of the problem. Should I cross the country to go to someone with oodles of experience and a great reputation, but who I've never met? Or stick with someone I know and get on with, but possibly be their first student on this particular course? And to what extent will my decision affect future employment prospects? You might want to bear in mind I'm hoping to stick with my current writing work and just instruct/fly part-time, ideally anyway (one can dream). All comments and opinions most gratefully received, and yes, I THINK I can separate the wheat from the chaff - been reading this forum long enough to have a rough idea of who's who, and who just walked in from nowhere, if you follow me.

misterbonkers, if you knew me better, you'd know I qualify on all three counts - (a), (b), and (c) :D

[misterbonkers]

whirly! glad to hear you qualified on a), b), c)! :D

You will probably find that the school seeking the approval will use an instructor qualified to do the course. There are few of these around so names mentioned by myself and others may be involved working freelance for the school.

I'm writing an AFIC course for the school where I fly at the mo and we plan to use one of guys previously mentioned.

So it would seem, chances are, you won't be the chaps first, and if you are, get them to teach you at a reduced rate!

[Hoverman]

Whirly
Your money/your choice but I wouldn't want to be someone's first or almost first student. I don't think there's any substitute for experience.
In the Seminar thread, a number of people talked in complimentary terms about Dennis Kenyon and Quentin Smith. I don't know if Q does FI courses, but his father Mike Smith is one of the most experienced instructors in the UK. He's spent his entire career instructing, both ab initio and FI courses. I've flown with him a couple of times over the years and learned something new each time. He's a natural pilot and natural instructor.
The advantage of doing your course with someone like Mike Smith is that you'll learn much more about helicopters and instructing than just the syllabus to pass your FI course.
Obviously there are financial considerations in doing a course away from your local area. That's something only you can decide.
Also, I think DK only operates Enstrom and Hughes which may affect your choice as an R22 specialist.

Good luck whatever you decide. And I look forward to reading your bulletins when you do the course. :)

PS I'm not a FI, haven't instructed for years, and don't work for HeliAir or any other school.

[Balance!]

Whirly
I think you must consider doing your course where you are most likely able to respond to a work offer. Genuine offers of work are few and far between to FI(r)s especially if it's only part-time that you looking for. I know I've been there. If you'd like to discuss, e-mail me your number and I'll give you a bell

best wishes

[headsethair]

Whirlybird: Glenda Wild is a fine instructor - she was at Heliair for years as CFI. Now she's gone to be Nick Mason's corporate pilot - but I think she does some instruction at Oxford.

Also - another recommendation for Mike Smith at Heliair Wellesbourne. A charming, warm man with an uncanny heli sense and a great way of downloading his skills to you. Suggest you book an hour with him - you'll learn 6 hrs worth!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Why the problem with Tiger's?? I've always found them to be excellent. Pete Bing does most of the FIC stuff, and I doubt you could find many more professional instructors.

[Heli vision]

can't seem to find the answer on the CAA website !!

Why does the FAR/AIM make things so much simpler......

anyway, question is, do the 300 hours needed to begin the JAA FI(H) course all have to be heli hours? Or is this simply total time?

thx in advance...:)

[Helinut]

This may not be the full picture, but JAR-FCL2 @ 2.335 sets out the pre-requisites to include:

300 hours of flight time of which 100 hours should be PIC if holding an ATPL(H) or CPL(H) or 200 hrs PIC if holding a PPL(H).

So JAR says any flight time counts BUT the CAA are increasingly fond of ignoring the words in JAR FCL when it suits them.

In the end if there is no direct answer in the CAA's documents and website, you will have to ask them. The only alternative is if someone has recently jumped through this hoop themselves. I did my AFI(H) course some while ago.

Does Whirlybird have the latest on this one??

[Heli vision]

thanks helinut - I just thought I was being stupid, but it does seem the wording is less than straightforward.

Interesting to see if anyone's got the definitive answer on this one.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Bad news I'm afraid. I've been asking this question for a while and have finaly got a definative answer. It is 300Hrs HELI time. I've asked for this to be justified, but no-one is willing to comment.

I have asked quite a few people at the Belgrano and now even Ron Jenkins has told me that this is the case, despite having told me different a few months ago.

I have also been told that the way the CAA is interpreting this rule is contrary to many other authorities in Europe, specifically the Germans. As it was written in such a way that each case could be taken on its merit i.e as an FI(A) I would get a dispensation of x hours. But as per usual Cash And Aggro have their own take on thisand every other rule.:mad:

[Heli vision]

oh dear....not what I wanted to hear.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a level playing field?:rolleyes:

as usual they appear to be trying their best to force people into thinking of all sorts of convoluted ways to get a licence. All involving spending money abroad rather than in the UK.

Anyone else any feedback on this?

[Helinut]

Why am I not surprised? They pretty much do what they like without regard for any words written down at all, and do not feel the need to tell us of any changes they make, assuming we have the power of second sight.

A lovely, if frustrating, case of power without responsibility :mad:

[Heli vision]

true words, Helinut.

I think what really gets to me is that they seem to have this inherent desire to make everthing as complicated as it can be.

As I mentioned earlier, look at the FAR's - pretty much straightforward to interpret, especially with regard to "add on" ratings, and information easily accessible.

If the JAR's are to work, then surely all authorities have to be reading from the same book. Mind boggling really.

:mad:

Oh well, as the hooker once said, it's not the clients that make the job difficult, it's the stairs.:rolleyes:

[Whirlybird]

Thanks again to everyone for the recommendations. After asking everyone everywhere, and making at least an attempt to visit and fly with two of the instructors mentioned, I'm starting the course with Mike Greene at Thruxton on January 27th. That's in just over a week, during which I have to fly for exactly four more hours between the showers and gales to get to the magic 300 - but I'll do it all at hover height if necessary!!!

Do you want a thread about my progress (or lack of it)? I won't have Internet access down there, and may not have time at weekends, but if you ask nicely.... ;) :D

[HeliGaz]

if you are serious, i really recommend instructing.

also i note you are from north wales , i happen to know that a large north west school not so far from you are looking for instructors right now so it would be an idea to ask about locally!

good luck!

[Robbo Jock]

As an avid reader of your exploits over the pond, I'd love to hear abut the trials and tribulations of your FI course.

(And I doubt I'm alone in that)

[Whirlybird]

HeliGaz,

Thanks for that. Any chance you could let me know which school? Send me a private message perhaps?

[Whirlybird]

Well, it's all arranged. I'm off to Fast Helicopters at Thruxton to start the FI course with Mike Greene next Monday!!! I hadn't planned to start for a month or so, but....well, never mind all that. I've even found a cheap room - well, more like a large cupboard - in Andover; nowhere to plug in my laptop, but The Nr Fairy has very kindly offered use of his so that I won't suffer too badly from PPRuNe withdrawal symptoms. And I've finally got my 300 hours (300.1 to be precise), including a little left seat practice today with an instructor who had no students in the nasty weather. I flew him to a pub for lunch, so he was happy, and in return he threw in a practice engine failure when I was low level, flying downwind, approaching the airfield, and talking on the radio. :eek: :eek: :eek: I think he called it confidence building. I can think of some other names for it myself.

Anyway, I had vowed that I wouldn't do any more live threads. It's scary, since I don't know where they're going. If I find it really hard, do I really want to tell the whole world? :eek: So...I'm not promising anything. Especially as with 30 hours flying and 125 hours ground school - yes, really, I looked it up; I thought it was 60-70, but JAR says 125 - I can't see myself having that much time or energy.

So...we'll see... Maybe you can watch this space. But only maybe...

[DBChopper]

Whirlybird,

As someone who hopes to follow the same route in a year or two, I look forward to your new thread.

Very best of luck, I hope you enjoy the course.

DBChopper :cool:

[Heliport]

Whirly has agreed to write an 'occasional diary'.
Not too occasional I hope.


Click here for the next instalment. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=78973&referrerid=30158)

[Heliport]

Thanks Whirly.
Not too 'occasional' I hope. We all enjoy your 'diary' threads.

Good Luck with the course!

Heliport

[kissmysquirrel]

Good luck Whirly and enjoy it. You'll get so much out of the instructors course and find out a lot about yourself too. Liken it to multi-tasking on a grand scale.
Might see you down at Fast in the near future.

[nonradio]

Whirly: The highs and lows of the course
Week 1: "nothing to this instructing lark.."
Week 2: "Oh dear.."
Week 3: " OK, Ive paid for this - I might as well attend.."
Week 4: " I might, if I'm lucky and everything goes well, scrape through.."
:D

[Whirlybird]

Well, the course started yesterday. Over the weekend I worked out how to get from my bedsit to the airfield without a complete tour of Hampshire and Wiltshire, and found Tesco and stocked up on loads of microwave meals. I considered reminding myself of the basics of how a helicopter flies etc, and gave up on the idea; we have 125 hours of ground school for that. :eek:

Yesterday morning I finally met Mike Greene; then Mark and I had a WHOLE DAY of ground school with him; sods law it had to be when there was good flying weather. Well, Mark got to fly as he had to do the pre-entry flight test; I'd already done mine with Mike Smith when I went to visit Heliair. So far it's been all theories of learning and teaching - feels a bit like my Psych degree course all over again, not that I remember any of it. But it's at last getting vaguely helicopter orientated, with talk of us giving briefings - lull while Whirly panics in anticipation. :eek: :eek: :eek:

This is lunch break, and I've asked for somewhere to plug in my laptop and check my emails, but I guess I can't do this every day. So this is just to say I hadn't forgotten, and I'll report more at the weekend when I get home - might even have flown by then; miracles do happen.:)

Oh, one bit of good news; I may well have an instructing job when this is finished - thanks Heligaz. ;)

[RW-1]

Good going Whirly!

I wait to hear how it goes for you.

I'm wrapping up CFI myself over the pond, tests done, flying, lecturing, and studying. Expect to go for my checkride within the next 90 days.

:D This is OUR Year babe ! :D

[Whirlybird]

Right, this is a diary, so let's do it properly...

Wednesday 29th Jan.
We finally get on to something flying related!!! Mammoth briefings on exercise 4 - Effects of Controls, then Exercise 5 - Changing Speed and Power (or something like that). It's a kind of combination of briefings being given to students with asides as to how we do it, and sometimes it's hard to tell which is which. But there seems to be an awful lot of it, and I'm getting scared already of the idea of doing it myself. I ask Mike if we're expected to give it back to him tomorrow; he says he's not quite such a b@stard as that, and we won't be giving briefings till next week. Phew, so I don't have to panic yet. :) Howling gales, so no flying yet. :( :( :( :( We then do a bit of P of F, and I realise how much I've forgotten. I spend the evening trying to revise, and getting panicky about all I don't know. Genghis the Engineer phones to find out how things are going, then The Nr Fairy and N Genfire both phone. Fellow PPRuNers, it's great that you care, but please go away; I need to work!!!!

Thursday 30th Jan
Still howling gales. Will I ever fly again? I can't cope with all these hours of ground school, and Mark has an engineering background and has done his CPL ground exams much more recently than I have, and is really showing me up. We get given Exercise 6 - Climbing, Descending etc, then Ex 7 - Hovering, then a bit about takeoffs and landings. In a break I take a deep breath and ask Mark if I can practice a briefing on him. I decide to try and explain Inflow Roll, and in the middle Mike walks in. He says to carry on, and I do, but from that point on get in a complete mess, getting it all backwards. Having proved to myself that (a) I can sort of speak in front of an audience, and (b) even if I cock it all up the world doesn't come to an end, I feel lots better.

Friday 31st Jan
WE GET TO FLY!!!!!! The wind has dropped at last. I take the first slot, being taught to fly again, but from the left seat. Mike does Exercise 4 with me; next week I get to give it to him. I'm glad I did that bit of left seat practice, as I feel fairly comfortable, and it goes quite well, and I really enjoy it. Then Mark flies, then we both decide to practise gving each other briefings on Ex 4. I think he gives too much detail; he thinks I don't explain enough, but basically we both agree that if we can do that much after a week, we should both be OK. So we mentally pat ourselves and each other on the back, and feel lots better. In the afternoon I get given Exercise 5 in the air, and again, it goes OK. Well, I guess this is the easy bit, but on balance it's been a good week. We finish early, as Mike is a nice guy and knows we both have a long drive home for the weekend. We miss the traffic, and I get home early evening.

On the whole it's going well. I'm extremely impressed with Mike Green; I wish I'd had an instructor that good for my PPL. They say you don't remember what you were taught; well I do, and a lot of what we're getting - and he teaches his students - I never did at all. They get governor off training from the beginning; I never did any. They get an extremely thorough grounding in how the helicopter flies; I got told how good I was since as an ex-f/w pilot I had a rough idea how to fly it anyway. I think I was somewhat shortchanged. I have a certain amount of sympathy for my low hours instructor, but only a certain amount. Anyway, since I'm now learning to fly all over again, it hardly matters.

One more thing...
Mike gave us a problem - You're flying at 1000 ft, close to the circuit, 20" MAP, 70 kts; your collective sticks and can't be moved at all; how do you land? He said we could ask people as well as think about it. I have some idea...I think? What do the rest of you think?

[HeliGaz]

Ah, the question that never seems to die!

i remember that one fro Brian Balman when i did my FI test @ EGLD its good to see it is still going strong!

good to see that you got to fly - it always seems to make things easier , until the 'give backs' ,which always seemed to be after the weekend so you just forgot enough!

[Helibloke]

Ok, I,m not an instructor but this is what i would be doing in the situation.

Governor Off, Bring rotor rpm to the bottom of the green, gently slow down to 20kts or so using aft cyclic. This will firstly increase height until the speed washes off then you should start to decend. When nearing the ground say 50 ish feet, forward cyclic to gain speed and reduce rate of descent and roll a bit more power on fly straight and level and 40/50 agl ish. Now you should be flying parallel to the ground. Start reducing speed and rolling off throttle to get some descent going again, play with that until you can run it on, when on the ground very gently roll the rest of the throttle off keeping straight with pedals and forward cyclic, Wait for the thing to stop, get out. throw up and shake like a leaf until help turns up and then say "Nothing to it mate, lets grab a few beers tonight eh?"
Oh yead dont forget the Mayday on realising the damn thing has stuck in the first place.
Ready to be shot down in flames by the more experienced! But thats my answer

[Helinut]

Keep up the posts Whirly, if you have the time. :cool: I found my FI course very, very intense - expect brain fade! :=

The BB/MG puzzle is meant to make us think of all the possible ways ways of losing height with a stuck collective. Part of it can be done by losing height by doing steepish turns, which is fairly controlled; changing air speed can work too. You still have to sort out the bottom end though.

You raise some interesting thoughts about learning to instruct and level of detail in briefs.

It is only when you start to think about instructing that you begin to realise what sort of instructor you had for your initial training. I was very lucky in having an experienced instructor for my PPL(H)who also taught instructors. I am/was an engineer, so he tended to go into lots of detail, which was good for me. Don't be too hard on junior instructors though - we all have to start somewhere and lots of PPL students want or can only cope with the basics! :*

Once you are instructing you will find that one of the skills you develop is to change your brief to suit the student. There is a certain basic level of knowledge that any PPL needs. The student/customer may just want or need the bare minimum or be a full-blown aerodynamic nutcase and you need to be able to cope with both.

You will be in the commercial instruction world, not the military one. The depth a brief should be determined firstly by the minimum required by the syllabus, but also by WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS/NEEDS.

When I did my FI training (and during subsequent FI re-testing) I always found it difficult to "play the game" that was required. Real briefing of a real student is much easier and more enjoyable. You need to remember that you are playing a game and act accordingly during your FI training. It is a false situation to try to tell some n-zillion hour helicopter guru about the basics of P of F. Try to act; try to play the game of getting the student "involved" by making them answer questions (even though you know they know the answers better then you do). Pretend that you briefed them about the previous exercise last week and get them to recap on some of those aspects.

The question of level of detail and depth of briefing is always a matter of judgment. Leaving the "real world" alone for now, in your current world you may care to consider 2 things:

i) Mike G (and whoever will test you) are inevitably P of F "nuts" so they will like to talk about P of F and all that stuff.

ii) You are required to cover what the syllabus says you should cover.

I would make sure that you do the minimum required in your initial brief, but not a lot more than that. Then be prepared to talk in more detail, when your "student" comes back with all sorts of other questions and issues.:=

Don't despair ! Think of all that flying you will be paid for, once you are an FI, and all the things you will learn from your future students!

P.S. Thinking about this, I am quite jealous because my current flight duty commitments prevent me from doing instruction :(

[Whirlybird]

Thanks people. I ought to do some studying; I'm going to work today (especially the dreaded P of F :eek: ) and take tomorrow off completely before driving back to Andover in the late afternoon. This evening I'm going to try out an Ex 4 briefing on Aerbabe , who's cat/house sitting for me, and her friend Neil; she has a PPL(A) and has had a trial helicopter lesson, and he's had a few f/w lessons, so they're almost typical students. I've told them to act like real students...so we'll see.

The stuck collective problem...I pretty much agree with Helibloke . As you flare to slow down that'll raise your RPM, so you'll need to keep bringing it back to the bottom of the green. I think you'd want to keep above translational lift speed to prevent any sudden sink, but you might want to do that to prevent vortex ring anyway. As you approach what would be hover height the ground cushion will hold you up, so very gradually bring back the speed and roll off throttle till you come to rest on the ground with a very gentle run-on landing - how's that for sheer optimism? Well, what do you think? Shoot me down in flames gently please.

Helinut,

I can see that you do indeed need to adjust the briefing to suit the student. But...I think (though I can't be certain) that what happened to me was that my instructor made some incorrect assumptions about what I'd want.

I went for a trial lesson, a f/w PPL who had no plans to take it any further. I loved it, and went back for a whole day. I said then that I was considering doing a PPL(H), but wasn't sure. Fairly soon afterwards I said that I was going to. But I always felt I wasn't taken seriously. I was treated as though the most I'd ever do would be take out a helicopter occasionally in my local area, as though the finer points of the 'A' check and not being able to reach the rotors because I'm so short wouldn't matter...
"Don't worry; someone can always do it for you"
"Get me a ladder; I do my own 'A' checks!"

Perhaps it was because I was female. It made no sense really, because as a f/w pilot I knew a fair bit about the theory and nav and met and so on anyway, so more information would hardly have overloaded me. Perhaps it was purely because I hadn't made it clear that my feelings about what I wanted were changing as time went on. Fairly early on I thought about instructing. I'd never enjoyed anything in my whole life as much as flying helicopters, and I didn't want to be one of these PPLs who never flew enough to be confident, or to improve - I wanted more. But I didn't tell anyone that; I saw no reason to at the time. Then one day my instructor said jokingly: "You enjoy this so much; maybe you should become an instructor". I then told him I was considering doing just that. Well, he wasn't just surprised; he was utterly gobsmacked! :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, any instructors reading this...what would you have done if I'd been your student from the start?

[Old Man Rotor]

Amazing that my initial Instructor had nearly 11,000 hours Total when he taught me to hover........and what a huge field that was indeed!!!
And I reached nearly 8500 hours on a wide variety of helio's including 6500 on IFR twins before I was trying to Check other pilots to do a Rig Radar or ILS approach..........

There are still guys that are teaching folk who are yet to climb that steep slope to an Industry Job.........????

Times don't change............

I sincerely wish you the best of luck for your future in our Industry........it just smacks me as to the wrong way of doing things............

[overpitched]

One thing I think is worth considering. With a jammed collective I see it was mentioned that you should lower rpm to the bottom of the green?? That seems to me to be a big risk if you actually had a jammed collective as you are not able to lower collective to recover rotor rpm if things go badly and the engine doesn't have sufficient power to recover the situation. From my experience opening the throttle may not produce an increase in rotor rpm. Sometimes the only way to do that is to lower the collective. Jammed collective is bad, jammed collective and low rpm.. no thanks

[HeliGaz]

to kissmysquirrel, yep he sure did

i'll leave whirly to her thoughts about it as i'm sure she'll report back next week, wish id had the forum to ask when i did my FI course!

oldmanrotor why should anyone have to get an industry job before instructing? some of us do it because we like to and have no wish to be a bus driver, a lot are very good, and, whilst some are not so good , it is the same in the commercial world - maybe after6500 hours in the soup you dont like seeing the real world!

[Whirlybird]

No internet access all week, and usually no time or energy left to look for an internet cafe, but I'll try to remember what's happened this last week....

Mon 3rd Feb
The weather is good, but wind's are expected to increase. We get given Exercises 6, 7, 8, and 9, one after another! :eek: for those who aren't instructors, and can't remember their own PPL training, that's "straight & level, climbing, descending, turning", "basic autos", "hovering", takeoffs and landings". The last two we haven't even had ground briefings on yet; we get them afterwards. We also get told we'll be starting to give back ground briefings tomorrow, and for one of us to do Ex 4 and the other Ex 5. I spend the evening practising Ex 4, which I've already tried out over the weekend on my long suffering house and cat sitter, Aerbabe , who has a PPL(A). She asked awkward questions like "What do you mean by balance?", "104% of what?" etc. Early night after a fairly knackering day.

Tues 4th Feb
Get given Ex 10 (transitions) on the ground and then in the air. The wind is about 25-30kts; not ideal, but we do it anyway. I have a lot of bad habits like raising the collective slightly before I start the transition, and forgetting right pedal as we speed up; Mike jumps on me for everything, and I wonder how I can hope to instruct when I can't even fly properly. We're all geared up to give back exercises 4 and 5, but then Mike asks us to prepare a briefing on fronts. Mark gives his, then out of the blue, Mike asks me to give one on wind! "That's not fair," I protest, and he asks me what I remember about wind. At that point, under those circumstances, the answer is zilch. He coaxes me through the Coriolis Force, Buys Ballot's Law, etc etc, telling me it's PPL stuff and I should know it; I say I do, but I've forgotten it and I can't just do it off the cuff. I spend the evening trying to revise bits of P of F, Met, etc, and getting depressed. So I can't fly and I don't know anything; how do I expect to be an instructor?

Wed 5th Feb
We get another quick lesson on transitions in the air, since the wind has dropped and Mike can demonstrate translational life; bit hard in 25kt winds as you have it before you start. Then we get Ex 11 (circuits), and 13/14 (hovering sideways and backwards, spot turns).

Thurs 6th Feb
We get in early, and get told we're giving back Ex 4 in the air. Despite having prepared it at the beginning of the week, we still haven't given back the ground briefing for it yet. Mark goes first, and I wish I had, as I stare at the little card I've made up with the relevant points, and realise I've forgotten everything; we were given Ex 4 last week - a lifetime ago. I go up, and manage to stumble through vaguely OK for the four main controls; then I get on to things like effects of airspeed and disc loading on RPM, and demonstrating the freewheel when you lower the collective and so on, and it all goes totally pearshaped. But the time I finish I can barely fly, never mind think and speak at the same time. I decide this is impossible, and say to Mike that I feel as though I'll never be able to do it. I'm actually giving him the chance to tell me I'm right; I won't, and maybe I should give it up. He doesn't; he says it's always the way; people think it'll be easy, and it isn't. How do I explain that I didn't think it would be easy; I started with very little confidence, and now I have even less. Still, he hasn't thrown me out. I mess up the approach, then struggle with trying to land. Mike tells me I should be able to land by now; I tell him I agree. He tells me to look well ahead and relax, and of course that works. I remember the first day's groundschool - learning is more effective if you're relaxed and confident. Yeah, well.... We get a debrief, being told they weren't bad first efforts. A little while to recover, then finally we get to do our ground briefings. My Ex 4 goes reasonably well; Mike says he's written down that I seemed confident, and was I? I said no, but I'm good at sounding it - but it hadn't been as bad as I expected. Mark does Ex 5, then I get to do Ex 6, with no preparation, from my notes. :eek: Ex 6 is a massive briefing anyway, and I get tied in knots, but it's not too bad. Mark then does Ex 7. I'm knackered and stressed, can't face another evening studying in my tiny bedsit, and go swimming at Andover Leisure Centre, hoping it'll help me relax. It doesn't work, and I sleep fitfully, waking up worrying about which pedal it is and which way you roll, yaw etc. I finally give up at 4 am and make some hot chocolate, eventually dozing off about 5 am. Lack of sleep won't help, but what can I do? I'm living on adrenaline, and telling myself this is not an emergency situation, it's just a bloody FI course!

Friday 7th Feb
I get in, looking more brighteyed and bushytailed than I feel, after hardly any sleep but lots of black coffee. I'm first out to give back lesson 5. It's a complete fiasco. It starts bad, and gets worse. After about ten minutes I sit there, telling Mike I'm sorry, but my mind's gone completely blank and I can't remember a thing. I tell him I'll be OK; I just need a minute and I'll pull myself together, honest. On top of everything we're above broken cloud with only a few holes and I'm totally lost. Mike doesn't play amateur psychologist, thank god; he does the next bit; I say OK, I'll carry on, and tie myself in knots with what ought to be a fairly simple exercise. It's not that I can't fly and talk, as I once thought - but I can't fly and talk and think; one of the three has to go. This means if I manage to talk and demonstrate the exercise I get lost, forget carb heat, and generally act like an idiot; if I remember those things....well, you get the idea. I fly back, deciding I'll give this whole thing up, and because of that, I relax and fly like I used to rather than like the cackhanded beginner I feel like I've become. I go in, head for the loo, and burst into tears (Oh no; I've just told 60,000 people I'm not just a hopeless pilot; I'm a tearful wimp too; I'd better delete that bit!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: ) When Mark comes back he asks me how it went. Past caring, I tell him total cr@p would be a fair approximation, and also a classic piece of English understatement. He says his was the same; he just couldn't remember anything. I think we both feel better realising we're not alone - but not much better. Mike comes back and tells us how it should have gone; I record it for future reference ( I have a cassette recorder with me); maybe I should learn it. He says you have to know the subject inside out, and to practice on a chair with a broom handle!!! We have a break, then he tells us to do some mutual flying (we can do 5 hours each of the 30 together), teaching each other Ex 8 and 9 (hovering, takeoffs & landings). We do, and it's fun. Suddenly I get my tongue back, and my flying ability and confidence with it. I remember most of what to say, and we both have fun as the student, putting the helicopter into wonderfullly mad oscillations, while the "instructor" sees how hard it is to correct it - surprisingly easy, though we don't push it too far. We both agree that hovering with one or two controls is quite hard, especially when the "student" has the collective and pedals; it's really difficult to keep straight with the cyclic when you don't know what's happening on two controls and you can't anticipate. Anyway, we both feel better after this. Mike tells us we may as well finish early as we have long drives home and a lot of homework. I get the feeling he planned all this, that we're being ever so slightly manipulated, though I'm sure it's in a good cause. I'm reminded of what one instructor told me - that the FI course is like the Power Required curve, if you plot confidence against time. Trouble is, I'm not sure we're reached the equivalent of 53 kts yet. :eek: :eek: :eek: I meet Genghis the Engineer for lunch before driving home, and he reminds me that although I gave myself permission to fail, I didn't give myself permission to quit!!!!

Sat 8th Feb
Nice to be home, but I'm knackered. Just sat in a chair trying to talk through Ex 4, 5, and 6. I can't even do it very well in a chair; no wonder I can't in the air. And to think I once got told I talked too much to be a good instructor.

More next week. Positive, reassuring, friendly comments would be warmly welcomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(edited mainly for typos)

[headsethair]

OK. First - "publishing" all this is ultra-brave. Doing it in such an honest, open style is evn more impressive. You are having a tremendous effect on your readers. You should have had a camera following you on this course - you would have a fantastic and valuable tv documentary.
With regard to your personal challenges - all I can say is keep going. Try and relax into it even more. (Easy for me to say at my keyboard!). You know you can fly - you know how to explain it - you just need practise at being able to merge those two activities.
You've inspired me to give this course a go.

[Whirlybird]

A camera!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: Arrggggghhhhhh, no way; I'm not that brave. Relax even more????? I think I've forgotten how to. But thank you for the kind words anyway, headsethair . Can't imagine how I've inspired you to do the course though; I thought what I'd written would be more likely to put you off.

[LaLa Flyer]

Whirly - Go girl.... ;) great to read about your diary. I hope one day to do what your are doing. I've noticed not that many women in the "trade"...Great respect.

Good luck Whirl

lala

[Ascend Charlie]

With a jammed collective, it's all very well to talk about getting speed low to start descending, but when you get close to the ground and decide to reduce the rate of descent, you have to poke the nose DOWN to build up speed - and the rate of descent gets very scary.
Keep the speed changes small and the rate of descent small, to stay close to the bottom of the drag curve.

Regarding the "Quacking" that you have to do to "Bloggs", I always found it useful to acknowledge/pretend that Bloggs had already done the preceding sequence, been debriefed on it, and had the pre-briefing for the current sequence. That way, instead of trying to explain inflow roll while you are flying, you say "OK, Bloggs, remember how we looked at inflow roll at the end of yesterday's flight? Good, so here we go..."

Or when your instructor says "Sir, can you explain dum de dum.." your reply is "Come on, Bloggs, we went through this yesterday" and you can cut out half the horsefeathers.

[pa42]

Tell us whether the following strategy would have made your CFIlife more bearable these past weeks:

I tell prospective CFI's to gather the library of relevant books in late fall, several months prior to beginning the course (assuming they're not in a tearing hurry), and to spend the grim months of winter writing their own CFI text (draft or outline or scribbled notes, it matters not).

They also should get a little mid-winter dual ground on how to write lesson plans (and Flight Instruction Breakdowns, which have for unknown reasons been discarded by the FAA since mid-70's).

They can then arrive for beginning of CFI course Already Familiar with CFI topics. Far fewer surprises in training.

Would it have helped?

[muffin]

Keep your spirits up Whirly - you will get there in the end. As I very nearly followed in your footsteps, I am reading all this with fascination.

Me - I am back on fixed wing at the moment, having just bought a pocket rocket.

Good luck

[Whirlybird]

pa42,
Some study beforehand would definitely have helped. However, Life took over. I hadn't planned to do this course till the spring, then I unexpectedly had the money, and Mike Green had another student. Could I start now? Yes, I could, but I had work to catch up on and finish, domestic responsibilities to sort out if I was to spend 5 weeks 200 miles from home, and I needed another 5 hours flight time. Study went by the board. I managed a little left seat practice, which helped, but more of anything would have been a good idea. So, anyway....

Monday 10th Feb
Mike is full of cold, and I feel like I'm getting one. We fly anyway, while the wx is OK - giving back Ex 6 in the air. I have practised on the ground over the weekend, and it's better than last week, though still not good. Mike asks me what mark I'd give myself out of 10; I say 4-5, and he agrees. Mark does it, and says things are getting worse; he just couldn't remember it all. Then we give back Ex 7 - basic autos. Well, I can't even do the damn things, never mind talk and do them. I'm sure we never did 180 degree autos at this point in my PPL training, but they do here, and I mess mine up. I'm out of practice; how can I be otherwise when self fly hire people can't practise them solo. Mike says I'm having to concentrate too much on the flying, and looking too much inside, and he suspects my early training was at fault. this doesn't help, since I'm obsessed anyway with the fact that my early training was cra....OK, let's be nice and say it left a lot to be desired. Anyway, we come in, and I feel better. Not for any good reason; I'm just fed up with beating myself up, and I don't really care any more. Mark comes back, and says his giving back was the being given the lesson all over again. We are becoming friends, both admitting we'd felt like giving up this week, complaining at how incredibly hard it is, etc. Then we give back less 10 - transitions. For those who've forgotten, you don't lift into the hover, point where you want to go, and go; you lift into the hover011, check everything, raise the lever so you don't descend, put in left cyclic to correct for inflow roll, push through flapback, push through translational lift, then right cyclic and pedal to correct for left roll and yaw, ease back the cyclic at 47 kts (not 45), then at 60 kts select your accelerative attitude and 23" MAP, all the while looking well ahead. I've probably missed something out. Anyway, amazingly enough, it starts to go quite well. I have fun demonstrating inflow roll and taking us round in a big circle, then climbing to show flapback, and so on. Mike even says it's quite good...then jumps on me for forgetting to correct for inflow roll when I talk about translational lift. Remember this is all happening at once, almost. Then we do the transition from forward flight to the hover, and again, it isn't bad. I come back in, finally seeing a glimmer of light at the end of this long dark tunnel. Mike is quite enthusiastic, but says I need to improve my flying, and we both need to...can't remember, do lots I think, but it's beginning to seem possible, just. Home and bed at 8pm; I'm definitely getting a cold.

Tuesday 11th Feb
Wx is cr@p. Mike is off to Wales; I'm full of cold. We give each other briefings all morning, then do mutual flying in the afternoon - Ex 13 & 134 - backwards and sideways hovering and spot turns. It's fun, and getting easier. We pack it in early, as vis is so bad we can hardly see to hover taxi. I need another early night, but things are definitely beginning to look up.

[keepin it in trim]

good luck with the course,

just out of interest and for something of a comparison, the UK military Central Flying School helicopter instructors course lasts 3 to 4 months, includes 4 weeks of solid ground school (that must be at least 125 hours although it feels like a lot more) and 80 hours of flying, AND at the end the CAA won't recognise the qualification until you've done a couple of hundred hours of military instructing and that has to be on a type on the civil register.

They won't even recognise a Squirrel rating gained through the military until you have 800+ hours as it hasn't been gained with a TRTO!

[Heliport]

Thanks for finding the time to post Whirly.
Very interesting.
Heliport

[Whirlybird]

Wed 12th Feb
Crap vis and low cloud, so no flying, but maybe just as well, as I have a bad cold and a pounding headache that pain killers won't seem to shift. I carry on anyway; at least we're on the ground. We get given briefings for Ex 17 and 18 - Advanced autos and Forced Landings. We've missed out Vortex Ring because Mike says it's easy, and Engine Off Landings so we can get lots of practice on those later. We get asked to prepare lesson plans on Pressure Instruments and Piston Engines, and give those. Wx improves in the afternoon, but we still don't fly, and to be honest I don't think I should. I go to bed at 8 pm.

Thur 13th Feb
We get given precision transitions and quickstops in the air. I'm looking forward to it - but it's a disaster. I can't seem to concentrate - Mike says something and I've forgotten it a few seconds later - and my co-ordination seems to have gone completely. By the end of the session Mike is obviously frustrated and I've reached my lowest point ever. He leaves me to shut down, and I decide I'm packing it in. However, by the time I've finished shutting down, I realise that if I do that, I'll spend the rest of my life wondering if maybe I could have managed it. OK, I think, it's only two weeks out of my life. Though if they throw me out I'll be almost relieved. Next we get out of wind operations, which goes better. In the afternoon Mark and I get to teach each other the same exercises. I tell him he needs to teach me downwind quickstops for real! He does, and then I help him with downwind transitions to the hover, which I find easy. But I still seem to have zero confidence. The trouble is, confidence is a bit like rotor RPM - if it gets too low it's hard to get it back at all. If you start at 100% it's OK, but mine started pretty low (a common female problem), and it's now been around the 75-80% mark for too long. :eek: I'm trying to do the mental equivalent of flaring like mad - but it's not working very well. Anyway, when we leave Mark and I go into Andover for coffee - we're fed up with studying in bedsit and caravan respectively. I still have a cold and my headache's coming back.

Friday 14th Feb
I wake up feeling terrified that we're going to be given advanced autos, and convinced I'll never cope. Part of this is realistic - I never did 360 degree autos or zero speed autos for my PPL, and have only had them demonstrated since, though they're on the PPL syllabus. I'm getting less and less impressed with my first flying school and instructor. I still don't feel that great, but I make what feels like a superhuman effort, and it doesn't go too badly. But as we turn to hover taxi back, I just can't do it. It's like my brain disconnects from my hands and feet, and I feel completely disorientated. I tell Mike, and he brings us back. I go in and rest, wondering what on earth is wrong with me. In the afternoon we get given limited power; I usually find this easy, but I seem to have ground to a halt. I finally tell Mike I've had this bad cold, and I think that's what accounts for my lack of coordination and complete inability to fly. We try for a bit longer, then he finally says gently that I'm obviously not with it, and to go home and rest. I still feel really depressed at the whole thing, and far too exhausted to drive home to North Wales. I meet Genghis the Engineer for coffee, and he tells me to just do the course; if anyone thinks I can't do it they'll tell me soon enough. He also says even a cold will really degrade your flying ability. It finally gets through to me that I'm ill, tired, and not thinking clearly. I drive home, and - miraculously - things suddenly start looking better. I read this thread, and realise my feeling down and lack of flying ability exactly coincided with my getting a cold. Er...I think I learned something this week.

Saturday 15th Feb
I drive into Chester to get my Class 1 medical back - I'd let it lapse, and I need it before I can get this rating. I'm wondering how I got in such a weird mental state over the past few days, and feeling rather stupid about my over-reactions. I decide to post about it anyway, if only to remind myself, and maybe others, of the possible effects of flying with a cold, and...well, anything else useful that anyone can gain from it.

More next week...and I've got a feeling things are going to get better. :ok:

[moosp]

Ghengis is very right. "Even" a cold will really degrade your flying ability. I've spent twenty odd years telling anyone who will listen that they should not fly with a cold.

But then your company "suggests" that for your future employment prospects you go flying and you do, and you perform way below your ability and you go home feeling worse. Or at the private flying level on a perfect evening you take the machine out of the hangar for a sunset flight, and you screw up. There is always a reason.

Hopefully this is a good lesson for you as a future instructor (We read your mails, we know you'll get there...) that if you have a trainee with a cold, send them home. At best it will be a poor lesson and you'll catch the cold- at worst they'll do something out of character and catch you out.

My 2c's

[AerBabe]

Sorry for invading the heli forums...
As I said to Whirly over the weekend, yes a cold can really knock you and you don't realise. I had quite a nasty cold/tonsilitis the week before my driving test. There is quite a tricky double roundabout which I couldn't get into my head at all. The only thing I needed to remember was to get straight into the left hand lane, from the middle lane, when going straight on... and I couldn't do it. And I drove straight past a light-controlled crossing and couldn't remember what colour they had been. I cancelled my test, got over the cold, and could drive again.
I've never flown with a cold, as I remember how difficult the driving was, and even flying planks takes a lot more coordination. I can't even begin to imagine how one would hope to hover when feeling muzzy in the head.
Whirly, the worst that's going to happen is you might take longer on the course. You're a good pilot, and you know it. You have the ability to give confidence to people, which is a rare quality, and vital in a good instructor. The natural abilities are there, and the rest will come with time. Stick with it, and go easy on yourself.

[The Nr Fairy]

Aerbabe :

Thanks for that. I'm not the only one telling her she's quite capable. Is it because I'm a bloke who's not flown with her that she doesn't believe me ?

[Nuada]

Whirly;

Firstly I would like to thank you for your courage in sharing such personal and intense experiences with the "world" beyond your keystrokes.

As I read through your trials I am reminded of the length and scope of our 'profession'. I am at this business now for 35 years. I have had the 'pleasure' and the 'pain' of near 20K flight hours. I have been an instructor and a student throughout most of those years. One of the most critical elements a professional instructor soon accepts is that you will learn and hopefully improve with each and every student you have the 'privilege' of metting. It's how we all maintain a positive dynamic in a job which demands constant attention to the rote repetition of the most mundane minutiae.

Hopefully you will be cheered to know that the degree and depth of your 'self-criticism' is common to most serious students of MOI. It is indeed a constant struggle to fly and talk your way through that 'perfect' period of instruction. As soon as you begin to approach that lofty goal, as you have already sagely noted, the student's needs intrude and back you go to that 'mental drawing board'.

You have made significant strides along the path to your FI rating. As you are deep within the process yourself, you will not appreciate the self perception and insight your diary has offered to those of us reading from afar. The flying portions will merge in a somewhat magical fashion with those verbal tasks you are presently finding so daunting. Trust me, it just happens and on a bright day, coming soon to your studies, you will find that 'point in space' with your hands and with your mind simultaneously.

Then perhaps those who cautioned you about your capacity to swamp your students with words and confidence and keen insight will be proven correct. You will make the best kind of FI, one who cares about this profession, AND her students.

Now step outside your fear and anxiety; just relax and remember this is not only where you want to be, but as all the old guys on this forum will tell you, if pressed hard enough, it's not only FUN but they pay you for it as well!

ALL the best,
K

[AerBabe]

Nr Fairy - You being a bloke probably has nothing to do with it. You know Whirly, she treats people as individuals, and makes no assumptions based on stereotypes.
I think she does believe you, and everyone else, but is finding it more of a challenge than she expected.
(Sorry Whirls, I don't mean to make this sound like we're talking about you behind your back!)
There being only one other person doing the course it must be difficult to gauge how you're doing. If you read through the responses on this thread though, everyone has similar experiences.

And Whirly, if you come back to your house before Friday night I'll lock you out and make you go straight back. ;)

[Whirlybird]

Aerbabe, Nuada, NR Fairy, thank you so so much. You've no idea how much it helps to have people to help me get things in perspective. Especially now, when the one other person on this course is finding it easier than I am, obviously doing better than I am, and actually enjoying it. It shouldn't matter, it's not a race, but it's still hard to accept. Anyway, enough whinging; on to the diary...

Mon 17th Feb
We don't start till 2pm; Mike is renewing his instructor's rating, examiner's rating, and everything else. We get given Ex 18, Forced Landings. Despite the fact that I find anything to do with autos difficult and scary, I actually enjoy it. I've never been taught it so well, being shown how to slow down to get into a field, much easier than doing innumerable S bends. This is useful stuff, for ME. I feel good at the end, and wonder if I've turned the corner so far as this course is concerned.

Tues 18th Feb
We give back Ex 17, Advanced Autos :eek: I feel semi-confident, but very determined. It starts off OK...but gets very rapidly worse. The datum one goes OK, my range auto isn't bad, but the extended range with RPM at 90% scares me and my flying shows it. I do it twice, and it's marginally better. Then comes constant attitude, low (zero) airspeed, and 360 degree turns. All of these I only learned on this course, and they don't go well...or if they do I forget to talk or call rate of descent angle of descent or something stupid. I don't feel that bad however. On the way back Mike gives me a practise engine failure; I make me field, and he says fine, but as a potential instructor he'd expect something of a Mayday call, and to tell my passenger to brace. All I hear is "potential instructor" - he thinks I might make it, wow!!! Next we have to give back forced landings and this gets rapidly more and more ragged. I'm getting tired, losing confidence, the more I do that the more my flying goes; I see it all happening but whatever I do to turn it around doesn't help. Mike's comments on the debrief, making it clear - as nicely as possible - that Mark is doing better than I am, make me feel worse. Then we give back Ex 25 - Limited Power. By this time I seem to hardly be able to fly, and I finally say to Mike that the trouble is I've lost confidence completely, and I don't know how the hell to get it back. He says to stop since I'm not thinking clearly. Oh well, I guess we can do it again. Mark flies, then Mike tells us to plan a nav for tomorrow. This I can do, I hope. I come into Andover to an internet cafe as I need a break!!!!!

Aerbabe, I'm not giving up; if I do I'll spend my whole life wondering if I could have made it. If I carry on, pass or fail, I'll know.

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi Whirly
I'm continuously amazed at your enthusiasm for spending money on helicopter flying when you have a perfectly good career!!!!
After 41 years it's still surprising how much I don't know and haven't for one reason or another not learnt. I think these days I'm forgetting faster than learning!!
However here's one tip for when you start teaching your new students autos to the ground. A very light weight friend, about 120 lbs, had a very large student, about 225 lbs, and extremely strong. On every auto in a Sikorsky 55, the student pulled the collective up too soon and the instructor did not have the strength to overide him. Finally he slackened off his seat belt and sat on the collective. Despite giving a verbal brief on the way down, the student still had the strength to lift the collective and nearly put the instructor through the top window!
Moral of the story------watch out for big strong students!!!:O :O

[trimpot]

Nigel, you old legend, not like you to be telling stories! My goodness a sikorsky 55, who was the instructor Pontius Pilate.

[Kolibear]

I wish I'd found this thread a few weeks early.

Keep it up, Whirly, only a few days more.

[Whirlybird]

Nigel,
There is a perfectly simple explanation - I'm insane. Otherwise why should I spend a small fortune putting myself through hell for the pleasure of earning far less than I do already allowing students to try to kill me? :eek:

Wed 19th Feb
Still feeling as though I can't stand another word of criticism, I drag myself to the airfield...and find we're doing instrument flying. This cheers me up slightly; it's something I've never found that hard. However, I haven't done any at all since my CPL, about 18 months ago. I say to Mark that I wonder if Mike will succeed in putting me off that, as he has with practically everything else. But it goes OK. It takes me a few minutes to get back to developing a scan, and an hour of instrument flying after a long break is hard work, but it feels like something I can do. This cheers me up amazingly; if I can do some things, I can cope with having weaknesses, but if I feel like I can't do anything.... Next we have a nav, which we've both planned like real new PPLs, since we don't know the area. But if fact it's quite painless, with Mike teaching us how he does nav, and advice on how to teach it to students. I've been taught nav so many different ways now - f/w, rotary, different schools, UK, US...I think my students will get it My Way anyway. Still, it goes quite well. I've recovered my confidence enough to be annoyed, both at myself for whinging, and at someone else for getting me in that state, since it was almost entirely counter-productive. But I guess - and I'll probably soon find out - that it's difficult for instructors to be mind readers. The Nr Fairy has invited me over for a meal, and despite the fact I should probably be studying I decide to take the evening off. I need a break, from work, and from my bedsit and the airfield. I drive across Salisbury Plain feeling like I've escaped from jail!

[Nigel Osborn]

The instructor was a RAF blow in on secondment to the RN. As you can imagine he had a great time in the bar telling us about this incident!!:O

[Whirlybird]

Thurs 20th Feb
We get given Ex 24 , Sloping Ground, and give back a bit of it immediately afterwards. It goes OK. Maybe things are coming together, I think. Little do I know... Next we get told we're giving back Ex 20, 21, 23, and 24, all in one session. :eek: Mike sounds all enthusiastic about it, and I try to convince myself I can do it, and pretty much succeed. But it doesn't work. Precision Transitions go fine, but I have the same problems as before doing downwind quickstops, and if I can do one I can't talk about it at the same time. After a few attempts I say to Mike that this is crazy, I simply can't do it, I don't know why or what's going on but we have to sort it out. He says to go on to something else. I "teach" crosswind and downwind takeoffs and landings OK, manage a downwind transition from the hover to forward flight, and get myself all over the place with the forward flight to hover one. By this time I'm in such a state that I can't either think or fly, let alone do both at the same time. We've also had an hour, and stop. But I've made a decision. I need to talk to Mike. I can't just go blundering on, hoping it'll all work out OK when it so obviously isn't. Mark is now quite happy and things are coming together, but they're not with me. This is not just my lack of confidence; I'm not blind, and this is real. Despite having said to Nr Fairy and Mrs Nr Fairy last night that talking to Mike wouldn't help, I HAVE to do something. So I go in and ask to do just that. It goes surprisingly well. To cut a long story short, we end up agreeing that the problem is my flying, and probably caused by my early training. Since I know my early training was cr@p - and that's an understatement - and have been trying to tell anyone who'd listen for years (and hardly anyone would; they just tried to reassure me) - this is no surprise. But what can we do about it, I ask? Well, he says, the only problem is the expense, I'll need a few extra hours. Is that all? Suddenly I feel as though I've dropped a great weight. I'm not a hopeless pilot who'll never ever reach the required standard; I've not been so badly trained that the problem is insurmountable (though it's harder to break old habits than learn them right the first time)...I'll just need a few extra hours. What on earth have I been getting so upset about? I say OK, no problem; should I make arrangements for a sixth week (groan; I wanna go home :( ) Mike says maybe, but maybe we can do it all next week anyway. I feel six inches taller, and the sun is shining again. In the late afternoon we get given confined areas, and I tell Mike that's the first time I've been taught a vertical letdown in an R22 in an area where you'd have to do one - my first instructor was obviously scared of them. You see the problems I'm having? I discuss PPL training etc with a friend on the phone in the evening; she went to a wellknown and respected school, but said despite emphasising that she had the time and money and wanted to learn properly (she had previously qualified on both f/w and microlights), it was till rushed, some exercises skimped over etc. Something is very wrong in the helicopter training world, IMHO. At the end of this thread I think I'll give you an account of my early training. It might help someone recognise and avoid the same thing. If you think it's just Whirly being self-indulgent (or plain wrong!) you can skip it. But IMHO someone has to speak up sometime. Anyway....

Friday 21st Feb
Mike has a crisis to deal with, so Mark and I do some mutual flying. We give each other Confined Areas in detail, then bits of what we feel like. My dreaded downwind quickstops go much better...but will they when I'm with Mike. What is it about the roleplay and the instructor/student scenario that I find so hard? In the afternoon we get a briefing on how to teach instrument flying, then get given it in the air. I'm very tired after a long and stressful week, and find it hard to concentrate, but really work at it, as I may need to do it for real someday...and I may be tired. I chat to a friend who used to teach canoeing, often to people who'd been badly taught in the first place, on the best way of relearning bad habits. He's very helpful, and I have a bit of a plan of campaign...

I'll post this, then post about my early training...

I went for a trial helicopter lesson, simply to try something new after about a year with a PPL(A). I had no plans to take it any further. But I loved it, and (apparently) amazed my instructor - let's call him Joe - by (apparently) hovering with all three controls for a few seconds. The reason for all the "apparentlys" will become clear soon. Anyway, I went back for a full day, with the same instructor, who seemed a nice guy, with great interpersonal skills, interested in me, and we got on really well. It went well, and I decided to at least have a few more lessons, and told him I wanted to go solo, and possibly even get my PPL(H).

My first 20 hours were delightful. I seemed to be able to do everything easily, and Joe just kept telling me how well I was doing. We zoomed through all the early lessons so quickly I couldn't believe it; I'd struggled with my PPL(A), but I just seemed to have such an affinity for helicopters. After about 16 hours Joe caught me looking at the First Solo photos, and told me I was already well beyond that standard, but the school had a policy of not sending people solo until they'd done 20 hours. I was ecstatic, and unconcerned; I'd decided to finish the PPL anyway.

With hindsight, I realise that even then I thought things seemed a bit odd. Jope would tell me I'd done really well after some exercise, and I'd say; "But I wasn't doing it accurately". He'd say it was OK, it was good enough; it didn't matter as we'd go over it all later on for my GFT revision. I assumed it was different from f/w, and believed him - what did I know. Then, sometimes I'd hover in a difficult situation, or takeoff or land, and was sure I felt him on the controls. He'd tell me how good it was, and I'd say: "But you were helping me"; but he'd assure me he hadn't been, not at all. So both my instructor and my helicopter were giving me signals that all was going well and I was picking up the skills naturally, and I believed it. Until one day, after being told how wonderfully well the lesson had gone, I said: "So when do I get to go solo". It's unlike me to be that forward, but....well, I could obviously fly this machine, and we were well on through the syllabus. Was I imagining that Joe looked nervous, when I told him I now had over 21 hours? Anyway, he arranged for a solo check ride for the next day.

As soon as I tried to take off with...let's call him Sam, something felt different. I'd never had any problems with takeoffs or landings... or so I thought. Here, suddenly, I couldn't do them. Sam took me to the hover square to go over them, but I just couldn't do them, and clearly had no real idea of how to. I obviously couldn't go solo, and drove home disappointed...but with my mind in a whirl. What the hell had been going on?

The next time I flew, Joe said that "they" had decided that I needed a little more practice, that it was OK, we'd carry on with the syllabus, but do a little takeoff and landing practice at the end of each session. But things had changed. I was suspicious. I felt this guy had been stringing me along. I thought he'd been coming on the controls without telling me, and now I tested him; I'd freeze as I was landing, and I knew he helped me, though he still assured me he wasn't. I didn't know if it was deliberate or accidental, but I wasn't happy either way, I didn't know what to do, and was gradually ceasing to trust him. I also wondered just how bad I was. After all, I was flying the helicopter...or was I? I considered changing instructor, but was determined not to rock the boat until I went solo...and when would that be?

When I finally did my first solo it gave me enough confidence to be angry and determined. I phoned the school owner the next day, and said I no longer trusted Joe, explained briefly why, and that I wanted another instructor. I was so definite that he agreed instantly. Even then I began to wonder about what later became a constant question for me: "How do I know what I don't know?" I knew I'd been badly taught, but had things been missed out, and how would I know? I tried to ask both the school owner and my new instructor, but felt as though my fears were brushed aside; I'm not particularly articulate so maybe it wasn't their fault. Anyway, I reassured myself that maybe we'd just have to do extra GFT revision, which was indeed the case, and I got my PPL(H). I'd been overconfident during my time with Joe, and to some extent I still was. And I decided to go commercial if I could, and started to hourbuild. And I more or less forgot about my fears until I oversped an R22 some six months later, and realised that although I had indeed been responsible for what happened, perhaps it wouldn't have occurred if I'd been better trained about checks, if I'd understood better how helicopters worked, and especially if I'd had some governor off explanations and practical training. My discussions on this with the school owner having led nowhere except to anger on his part, I contacted the only other experienced instructor I knew of at that point, and got some extra training. In fact I told him of my fears, and said I wanted to go right back to the beginning! :eek: He told me it was impossible and unnecessary, obviously thinking I was over-reacting. Nevertheless I made him sit in with me for the start-up, and he did find one or two things I wasn't doing - no-one had checked after I stopped flying with Joe.

So I carried on. I went to a new school, with whom I did my CPL. There it became clear that parts of the PPL syllabus had been missed out, or skimped over. Having wondered before if I'd got it all wrong, I became more certain that I'd been absolutely right.

Now I'm doing it again in far more detail for the FI course. I'm finding out how helicopter flying should be taught...and it's certainly not how I was taught, far from it. Even allowing for individual differences, my early training was cr@p. I was strung along, patronised, made to feel good and happy - but not taught to fly properly. I'm fairly certain some of the instructors at that school were fine, but why did no one check on me till my abortive first solo attempt? And why didn't they attempt to rectify things afterwards? It was, as I see it now, a complete cover-up - and never mind the consequences to me, the paying customer.

I saved a few hundred quid at PPL level by going to a cheaper school; it's costing me a lot more than that at CPL and instructor level. And I worry as to whether it can even be rectified. To anyone else going this route, please please please check and ask around first!

Don't ask me to name and shame; I've thought about it, but I won't. Firstly, I still could be wrong about what happened. Secondly, the published word appears to have a truth and reality beyond just opinion - and this is of course just my opinion. But if anyone wants to send me a pm about any of this, feel free. I'd be happier if you explain roughly why you want to know. And I'll emphasise again, it'll be purely my opinion.

[Hilico]

I cried half a dozen times during the time it took me to read this thread.

How DARE you ever contemplate giving up. I remember when I came into a little money and could afford three (count them) hours flying over two days. I turned up and could see through the Ops room windows the H300 waiting to go. Can anyone imagine the thrill of excitement I felt? I wouldn't be going home until I'd flown in that machine, twice! And I'd do the same again next day!!

We came down to the hover from the trip round the fine city of Norwich and used the Tower as a reference. Aiming point, parallax, look in the distance, now the ground in front. I "get control". Pause. "Am I doing this?" "Yes, look," and he waves his hands about. "But we're not moving!" I'm glad I don't have a video of that trip. I would sob my heart out every time I saw it.

False confidence. I've flown R22s half a dozen times. I always got praised to the skies (tee hee). I just didn't lose sight of the fact that I could always make a tit of myself on the next ride, or indeed during the one I was having. I asked questions. I asked about inflow roll before the instructor got round to mentioning it. I'd phone up once I got back to the office to clear up some detail I hadn't got clear in my mind ("what have you thought of now?"). Modesty thrown to the winds, I think I have the talent. But I'm perfectly prepared to be made to look like a pillock, because in some circumstances I am. We all are.

The most exciting line in Robert Mason's book Chickenhawk is "I was finally getting my chance". So many of us haven't. You have. I wish you the very best.

[trimpot]

Did he manage to get you to shout when you were in the bar Nigel? :rolleyes: Send me a private message you old dog.

[Whirlybird]

Hilico,
Thankyou, and I do appreciate how privileged I am, and I'm not giving up. But why did this thread make you cry?:confused:

[muffin]

Keep going Whirly. I am relying on you to do some practice EOLs with me this Summer!!

[Hilico]

Whirlybird

Because you were describing so well what it was like to get your chance, and I haven't had mine.

I once had this footling medical problem, it really was three-fifths of nothing at all, but my GP happens to be the AME for this area, so..."the guidelines are to wait ten years and see how you are after that."

Sort of knocks one back a bit.

Thanks for a fascinating thread.

[Helinut]

Hilico,

You don't necessarily need to accept the view of that AME. I am aware of a number of cases where medical problems have been shown to be OK, following appropriate enquiry. Most of the cases that I am aware of have been guided through to a successful conclusion following the advice of a particular AME who is a real specialist in this area.

If you send me a PM, I can provide the details to allow you to contact him.

[Whirlybird]

muffin,
The idea of doing EOLs without an instructor next to me absolutely terrifies me!!!!:eek: Though I suppose that could change. We'll see...

Mon 24th Feb
Fog, so no flying. We have a mammoth briefing session; I do Ex 5, Mark does 6, I do 7, he does 10. We both agree that we're getting much better at this, and so does Mike. Actually I rather enjoy it. It takes us to mid-afternoon, and the wx has improved, but we still don't get to fly; we go over bits of Met and emergency procedures and so on. Either due to having done some revision, or because I've relaxed somewhat, I seem to remember a lot more than I did earlier in the course. Maybe, just maybe, things are going to start coming together. And it looks very much like I have a job to go to afterwards. :ok:

[MightyGem]

Solo/mutual engine offs? Best fun you'll ever have:D :D :D

[[email protected]]

Whirly, whilst I cannot condone the actions of your first instructor, I think once you become a QHI and teach your own students you will probably understand why he did things the way he did.
Being a QHI is about building and maintaining your student's confidence (just as you are experiencing at the moment during your course), if a student cannot perform a particular exercise even after several attempts, then frustration builds and their performance gets worse; it is often better to move on to something else (not neccessarily easier, just different) that the student can do in order to maintain his/her confidence in their own abilities, and return to the difficult exercise at another time.
If you insist that a student does not progress until they have mastered a particular skill and keep on making the practise it over and over again you run the risk of demotivating them completely.
You said yourself that you struggled during fixed wing training and it maybe that your QHI was just trying to be too nice in keeping your confidence running high by telling you that you were doing OK when you weren't. He did neither himself nor you any favours instructing this way but he was probably under commercial pressure from the boss to make sure you kept coming back for more - if he had been brutally frank and said you were unfit solo after 20 hours would you have quit?
The more empathy you have with your student's problems, the better QHI you will be - remember the emotional highs and lows you are experiencing on your FI course as you struggle to learn and perfect new skills - your future students will be feeling the same way.
Don't feel embarrassed by needing extra hours to get your own flying up to speed, every QHI student ends up learning to fly all over again because you inevitably fall into bad habits (just like driving) until someone scrutinises your skills and points out how you should be doing it. Out in the real world of GA, how many pilots actually fly an academic downwind quickstop? Like any skill, if you don't practise it you will lose it.
I don't suppose a civilian QHI course involves quite as much drinking as the military one does (although I might be wrong) but enjoy it to the full and the best of luck Whirly as a QHI.

[Whirlybird]

crab,
Thanks for putting the other side. However, I wasn't struggling, didn't find it difficult, and looking back in my logbook, we rarely spent more than one session on each exercise, far less time than most other people were doing. I thought helicopter flying was really really easy!!! And he praised me to the skies; I mean, no-one's that bloody good!!! By the time I went solo, we'd covered virtually the whole syllabus in minimal hours - but had to go over loads of it again before my GFT. So while his intentions may have been good, and I take your point, it was way over the top. Anyway...

Tues Feb 25th
Mike is busy, so we give back parts of Ex 27 - instrument flying - with another instructor. I'm surprised at how difficult this is. You have to talk, scan the instruments, and work out from what's happening to the instruments just what the student is doing wrong; I mean, I'd never seen flapback on the the AI before! It makes instrument flying by itself seem like low workload. Later we go out with Mike and give back Ex 15 and 19 - Vortex Ring and Steep Turns; relatively easy stuff. I work it out, and we've covered everything except a bit of instrument flying, and EOLs, both as student and instructor. Having talked to a few people who've been through the course (thanks Helimutt!!!) I'm realising I'm not that bad, that it IS all coming together, and that my main problem is my lack of confidence. Mike's still talking of finishing the end of this week. But we have a new problem - one R22 is off line, leaving us only one. :eek:

Wed Feb 26th
Despite having only one R22, we both get some more instrument flying, and go over Advanced Autos again. It goes better, but Mike comments that I seem to have a block about them. I do, but I never used to. I think I'll spend an hour doing them with my old instrutor when I get home; I used to like them; what happened? Then we have a mammoth session on P of F. I didn't realise the depth we needed to know things, and get annoyed at apparently being ridiculed. I say no, I can't tell him what he's asking, but since I now know I need to learn it, I will, OK? I get the feeling I'm deliberately being given a hard time, and I don't like it. But it's finally dawned on me that no-one can make me feel inferior without my consent!!!! :mad: Anyway, the examiner can't make Friday, so we have our tests booked for next Tuesday. We'd hoped to finish this week, but what the hell. I'm off to my room to do some P of F. Despite feeling as though I'm constantly being criticised, I realise just how much I've learned in the last very very long 5 weeks. Anyway, I shouldn't complain; I who know what it's like to have an instructor who tells you you're wonderful when you're not. And I guess I wouldn't be being put in the for the test if I couldn't pass it...at least I hope that's the case.

[AerBabe]

It sounds like things are starting to come together Whirly, keep the good work up! Good news the examiner can't make it until Tuesday - it takes the pressure off. I know it's another few days, but what does that matter in the long run? This is a long-term investment, spend the time getting it right now. Erm, that wasn't meant to sound so patronising. :O

[Whirlybird]

Aerbabe, don't worry; it didn't sound patronising. Anyway, I'm past caring what anyone says or what it sounds like...

Thur 27th Feb
We finish our instrument flying, then give back Ex 6. this is a common one to have to do on the test, and it goes reasonably well. Then we hear from the examiner, who was phoning to tell us which exercise we'll be doing. Let me explain first. There has always been a panel of examiners, one of whom does the test. You virtually always get Ex 4, 5, 6 or maybe 10 - Effects of controls, speed and power changes, straight and level etc, or transitions, ie the basic lessons you give to a student. Well, it's all changed. Fred Cross of the CAA, who's recently taken over from David Patterson, will now be doing all the tests. We get told he can't do both on Tues, so mine will be on Wed, and one of us will do Limited Power, the other Sloping Ground!!!! Now, although these aren't that difficult, they're difficult to do, and teach, well. They're also short....so what's he going to spring on us after that? :eek: And we now realise the "rules", as it were, no longer exist; we could get anything, ie no point in asking people who've done it before; we're the first and things have changed. :eek: :eek: :eek: Anyway, we go out and give back Limited Power, and I can't manage a zero-zero landing (can anyone?) but it's otherwise OK. We going over Sloping Ground tomorrow. I think that one's mine, and though it's usually fine, if I'm nervous my feet freeze up first. But actually I'm now too fed up, annoyed, and pissed off to be nervous. I hope that lasts. We've done nearly all the flying, I have loads of revision over the weekend, then...well, we'll see....

[[email protected]]

Whirly, it seems that the ex-AAC mafia have a stranglehold on QHI testing now - David Patterson is an ex-CFI of Middle Wallop and Fred Cross an ex- Aviation Standards Officer.
The normal modus operandi of a military QHI check is a pre briefed exercise like limited power that you give a full briefing on and then fly, fault analysing your 'student' as you go. The rest of the trip will be spent carrying out cold exercises - he might ask you to patter a quickstop or an auto or even teach him an emergency. What ever happens, you are almost guaranteed to come back to base for an EOL - ensure you know whether he wants you to teach it or just fly it!
Unless the CAA dictates otherwise I fully expect Fred to follow the above format. I suggest you make sure you are on top of the local procedures at Thruxton though, especially around the Middle Wallop area as Fred knows the area extremely well.
Don't panic though, he is a good chap and very fair so unless he makes you land on and walk home, the sortie is probably going OK!!!!
Best of Luck

[TeeS]

Whirly, trust me, you don't know how much you are learning. It's like watching your kids grow up, you don't notice the changes in them because you see them every day, it is a gradual progression. Friends, relatives etc. who only see them occasionally see huge changes.

Once the test is out of the way, and you get a chance to fly without someone pushing you all the time, you will realise how much you have improved. The good news is, you will get better all the time you are instructing. Picking out where your students are making mistakes and explaining how they can correct them, improves your own standards.

All the effort will be worthwhile when you see your first student return from their first solo!!

Enjoy

TeeS

[Ascend Charlie]

The best eye-opener will be when you are teaching a real student how to hover. Up till now, your Bloggs is an instructor, who will never put in the control inputs that a dopey student will try.

The same goes for engine failures in the hover - Bloggs has never let one truly get away from you, but Dopey will!

Good luck! Enjoy! And your liver is looking forward to some nerve-settling Gin-and-Tonics after a hard day instructing.:eek:

[Whirlybird]

crab,
That is incredibly useful to know; thankyou. I'll spend the weekend learning how to teach all 27 exercises..and revising all my Met and P of F and emergencies and......Arggghhhhhh!!!! OK, I'm not really panicking.

TeeS and Ascend Charlie,
Thanks, and what I find encouraging is that ALL of you seem to be assuming I'll pass. :) I might even get to believe it myself at this rate.

Anyway....

Fri 28th Feb
We were supposed to be doing Sloping Ground, but the wx had other ideas. I 'A' checked the helicopter in drizzle and wind, and we managed to make our way over to the sloping ground in ever decreasing visibility. But I really struggled to do the exercise, never mind teach it; it was getting foggy, and was so damp that the demister just wouldn't clear the left hand side of the windscreen at all. Sloping ground landings in semi IMC!!!! After about 10 minutes Mike said to forget it; I wasn't learning anything. I asked if it was the conditions or me, and he said the conditions of course; it was atrocious. It's beginning to dawn on me that I'm harder on myself than anyone else is on me; Mike could do it, so I thought I should be able to - but he has 15,000+ hours to my 330!!!!!! Anyway, we came in and cancelled Friday. Just as well our test wasn't today; the wx was worsening by the minute. I drove home, and I'll spend the weekend revising...and maybe getting a bit of a rest too. Whatever happens, it'll all be over in a week. :) :) :)

[helipilotnz]

you probably wont need it though. i will be kind of following your foot steps in nz at the end of the year and found your writing very interesting and helpfull. i hope the weather will come to the party. congradulations in advance. :ok:
helipilotnz

[Whirlybird]

Mon 3rd March

On Saturday Aerbabe gets an extremely thorough Met briefing, and i go over all 27 exercises and most of P of F. I can do all the flying exercises fine sitting in a chair, so I feel reasonably confident this morning, after a Sunday to rest a bit. Yeah, well...

Fog, so Mark gives a briefing on Limited Power, and I do one on Sloping Ground. It's not bad...am I imagining that I'm being made fun of when we go over it? I must be; I'm tired aren't I? Fog clears, Mike says he'll fly with Mark, then me. Apparently my Sloping Ground is now Sloping Ground AND Basic Autos - when did he find that out? We also have to do EOLs, and I decide maybe I should make sure I can get the throttle in the detent; this one is exceptionally stiff, and I don't think I can. I try, and I'm right - I nearly do in my wrist! :eek: I tell Mike I'll need to use the instrument R22 for my test; he makes a comment about women thinking they're the stronger sex! This is two days before my test; it's the umpteenth comment like this, and just about the last straw - I Know I'm over-reacting, but I explode, saying they need to make helicopters for people, not vice versa. Mike escapes, saying I can use the other R22. I'm fed up, annoyed, and want to go home.

In the air I give Ex 7 - Basic Autos - not too bad, though I still keep mixing up my words. Mike gets me to talk through a transition and a quickstop, and says that could happen in the test - crab, looks like you were right. Sloping Ground I can do, but I'm tired and the wind's too strong. If I hadn't done over five weeks and spent thousands of pounds, I'd go home now - I think this is a bad joke.

Still, maybe it'll be alright on the night. Either way, I feel like I need a break from anything to do with flying for a bit.

Whoever said it gets better towards the end was wrong!!!!!!!

[flapsforty]

Whirls, the stupid comments are gonna be there the rest of your life.
Our lives.
Get mad and move on; exactly like you're doing.
Thinking of you, rooting for you.
hug
J

[DBChopper]

Whirly,

I've been following your progress with interest - stick with it. I hope to be following in your footsteps in a few years' time so thanks for your honesty.

In the meantime, you are paying too much money and expending too much effort to have to put up with that kind of crap. I hope it strikes a chord with a few others reading this too. Do you ever get the impression some instructors forget who the customers are..?

Good luck,

DBChopper
:cool:

[pilotwolf]

I know I ve said it elsewhere but...

GOOD LUCK and fingers crossed for the weather!

I would like to think I speak for all ppruners when I say we are thinking of you.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I spoke to Whirly last night, she's sounding much more relaxed than she did on Monday night when she did sound more than a little stressed. I gather that Wx permitting she's got her test today and that the chap doing it with her achieved a partial pass yesterday.

So, fingers crossed for her and the weather.

G

[Whirlybird]

Tues 4th March
I do EOLs and emergencies with Mike. It goes very well; I really enjoy the EOLs; with a 25 kt wind it's easy. He is actually an excellent instructor; for the first time ever I'm not just told I have to develop a feel for it (how? when?) but what to do and when and why. Mark only gets a partial pass; he struggles with the theory, and will have to re-do his auto as he managed to get an overspeed - first time ever and he doesn't know how or why. This is worrying, as Mark has been doing so well. Nevertheless, I feel cautiously confident. I tell Fred I've hurt my wrist - I did, struggling with the detent - and he says if that's all that's wrong he's willing to close the throttle into the detent for me.

Wed 5th March.
I really don't want to post, but I will for the sake of completeness. I go in, check the wx. Because it's not good, but looks like it may improve later, we decide to do the briefing, then the theory, then the flying. The briefing - on Sloping Ground - is fine. Then he starts asking me questions on anything and everything in the PPL syllabus. It isn't all bad, but I don't know everything, get rattled by the exam situation, miss out a few things, make a few mistakes. After tying myself in knots with Met - in the CPL ground exams my best subject - I ask semi-jokingly if I should go home now. He tells me there are too many gaps in my knowledge, and that I've failed that section, and it's up to me if I want to carry on with the rest. I say I'm there, so I do. But I can't! My brain is grinding to a halt. I even get confused on Nav - definitely my best subject - which I hadn't even felt the need to revise, since I use basic nav all the time because I enjoy it. I get a break after about two hours, and force down a sandwich and go for a walk to try to calm down. It usually works for me - but this time it doesn't. I'm getting more and more upset, and terrified of flying. I ask for a longer break - no problem, but it doesn't help. I phone a very experienced f/w instructor friend; she says I shouldn't fly in that state, and to talk to the examiner. I do, telling him I feel like the long term stress and exhaustion of the past 5 weeks has just suddenly got me to a point where I'm not sure I can cope any more. He says it's up to me, gives me all my options, and suggests I talk to Mike. I do, and he suggests I pack it in, have a rst, and take the test again in a few weeks when I've rested, revised etc. The absolute relief I feel at not having to fly convinces me this is right. The examiner then tells me he thinks I've made the right decision; that if I fly in that state I won't do myself justice and will probably destroy my confidence. What bloody confidence??? The bit I regained yesterday wasn't even enough to cope with a minor setback. Anyway, we have a debrief, and apart from feeling that I hadn't been that bad really, all I can think is that I don't care and I want to go home and forget about flying for a bit.

So that's what I'm going to do. My break will probably include a break from PPRuNe even, because I honestly feel as though flying has made me so miserable for these past few weeks that I want nothing whatsoever to do with it. I know that won't last. But I'm not coming back to this thread, and probably not to this forum, or even to PPRuNe...for a day, a week, a month, or until I really really want to. The same goes for the test, which I can now do with either Fred or any of the panel examiners (since Fred only HAS to do first attempts)...I'll do it closer to home when I really want to. If I want to. But I know myself; eventually I will - when I recover from all this. Looking on the bright side, I've completed the course; all I have to do is get up to speed again and do the test. It feels like a major obstacle...but I suppose it isn't really.

I know I'm over-reacting, but I'm tired and not thinking clearly. And it's bad enough failing...even if this is now called a "student withdrawal" officially, I'm not good at coping with anything resembling failure. It's even worse telling the whole world. But for the sake of completeness, I felt I had to...though I was tempted to just delete this whole thread and say nothing and never come back here. Anyway, thanks to so many of you for listening and for the help and encouraging comments. But...THIS REALLY REALLY IS THE VERY LAST "LIVE" THREAD I'M EVER GOING TO POST!!!!!!!!

Bye for now,

Whirly

[Hi Flyer]

Hi Whirly, Despite you probably not viewing any replies for some time, I thought it apt to express a little admiration in what youve done during the last few weeks. Speaking from someone just finishing the ATPL theory and probably looking to do the same thing, its been a breath of fresh air to see someone expressing ones thoughts in a genuine and informative way. Good luck in the future!!

[rotorboater]

Hey Whirly,

Don't give up, your posts have been very revealing and you have said a lot of things most people would never dream of saying out loud but I for one will be happy to fly with you!

Keep your chin up and good luck.:D

[[email protected]]

Whirly, very few people would have been ballsy enough to do this course with 330 hours and even less would have got as far as you did. There is no shame in not passing, at least you know what is expected of you next time.
Get drunk, sober up then just go and fly by yourself on a nice day to remind you that you don't actually hate flying and that is why you took the course in the first place - to be able to pass on your love of flying.
Chin up girl.

[DBChopper]

Whirlybird,

Ditto all the above comments. I admire your honesty and decisions made. See you back on here with the pass under your belt. In the meantime, fly for fun!

DBChopper
:cool:

[MightyGem]

Whirly, I had a hard enough time doing it with 3000hrs, let alone 300:eek:

Have a good rest and have another go. And remember, :) :)

[Whirlybird]

Ahhh, aren't rest, booze, and friends wonderful things? I still feel knackered, but able to get things slightly more in perspective again. I can even bear to think about flying - though not quite yet. Thanks everyone. I'll have another crack at it sometime. I might even tell you all about it...when I've passed!!!!!

[Old Man Rotor]

I have been patiently watching your posts and progress.........not willing to say anything, in case it would detract from your passion of pursuing your goal.

What will you do now??..........continue with booze, friends and old times.

Or get up and challenge yourself again.........???

That will test whether your a writer or an aviator!

[pilotwolf]

Welcome Back!

Knew you wouldn't be able to resist pprune for long. :p

If you get back into flying as quick I ve got 5 days til I m back at work and up for a robbo fix....;)

[Happy Landing !]

Just take one day at a time........

Above all - Enjoy what you currently have then when your ready, have another crack at it.

Don't give up !

Happy !

[Genghis the Engineer]

Old Man Rotor

As a writer of admittedly trivial note myself, and a friend of Whirly's, I feel I should point out that it is possible to be a capable aviator and an accomplished writer at the same time. Names such as Roland Beaumont, Irv Lee, Neville Shute or John Farley spring to mind (in no particular order of regard).

For that matter, don't forget that Winston Churchill got the Nobel Prize - for literature. He was notable for skills in other areas.

G


"The difference between a scientist and a writer, is that scientist can also write a novel." (Arthur C Clarke)

[Old Man Rotor]

Yes indeed, you will get no arguement from me.........in fact most Helicopter folk have at least one other commercial discipline in their life before aviation.

The point that I was trying to make is.......The longer one goes on in this Industry, the more chance one has of not achieving every target, ambition, hope, aspiration, whim and challenge!!..........the resolve of the individual will be measured as a result of the course of action [or inaction] after such a disappointment.

Much like the rider bucked off the horse......

[The Nr Fairy]

OMR :

I think Whirly has the requisite resolve. I think she's proven that from the moment she took up helicopter flying !

[Whirlybird]

I was going to ignore all this, but since you all insist on discussing me (sigh).... :)

I've never done well on intensive courses; I hate them. I realised fairly early on during this one that I'd do better if I took it more slowly, but it seemed difficult to get off the self-imposed treadmill, and I thought maybe it would be OK. So maybe I was right after all. My plan now is to spend a week getting organised and recovering - I really am absolutely knackered, and have a few things that need doing after putting my life on hold for nearly six weeks, to say nothing of needing to earn some money. Then I'll spend a few weeks getting up to speed on all the PPL subjects, which I'd planned to do before the course, but I got persuaded to do it earlier than I'd planned, and I thought I could revise during the course...and it proved too much. Meanwhile, I'll hopefully keep more or less current with the flying, and remind myself that it's fun. And in a few weeks, maybe around Easter - though I haven't worked out a timescale as yet - I'll get a few hours of training/ revision, and have another crack at the test. This time when I feel ready, not when instructors or friends or ppuners or anyone else assures me I am when I know damn well I'm not. OK?

[Tinstaafl]

Whirly, it sounds to me that it's not your flying - even allowing for your PPL stuff - but your confidence. I always had the same problem. I'd start out nervous, that would make my flying worse, I'd get more & more nervous etc etc until I couldn't do a thing.

It was so bad my instructor had me fly my Restricted PPL (as it was then) with the CFI but without me knowing it was a flight test! My instructor just told me it was a requirement for a check flight with the CFI prior to a test being scheduled.

Oblivous me thought the the ground grilling & extra long flight wasjust part of a thorough 'check'.

It wasn't until we landed he told me I now had a PPL.

It took me years & years of tests & renewals before I started to overcome that handicap. The navigation part of my PPL, my CPL, my IR, a goodly number of IR renewals, my initial instructor rating, upgrades to that to get instrument & multi, my CP & CFI approvals...

Even now if it's something new I have to really fight against it during the test.


I think in your current case you have a very intensive rating course to add to the situation. An FI course is bloody difficult. Unfortunately only those who have ever done it appreciate what was required.

Those who haven't only ever see the (usually) relaxed - & deliberately cultivated - persona of his/her instructor, see him/her making a few appropriate comments about what's happening, what should be done next etc etc etc.

No one except instructors ever think about what was involved in becoming able to do those things. It is NOT easy to fly an aircraft to a consistantly high standard AND talk about what is happening/you're doing about it in a way that stays ahead of events AND offload the workload to keep one's student within his/her best learning curve AND manage events to best meet the objectives of the exercise etc etc.

It's no fun trying to demonstrate one's competance to someone who is not just a professional colleague but is in a position of authority. We all know that the testing officer usually knows the area of knowledge backwards. Bear in mind you aren't expected have that level of knowledge - until you in turn become an examiner! Until then it's 'only' :p the level for the rating sought that is required.


Good luck!


PS: And standing up in front of someone to give a brief or lecture? I *HATED* it! I've never been so nervous in my life until then.

[Whirlybird]

Tinny,

Agree with all of that. Giving lectures, especially unprepared ones, is the stuff of my worst nightmares. :eek: :eek: :eek: I've improved over the years...but change of that sort is only possible up to a point. Which is why I have to know the stuff backwards, and be beyond the standard required for both the theory and flying, to take account of the fact that I won't do myself justice in the test. It was the way with my CPL - I flew extraordinarily badly compared to how I normally would, but still passed. It's been the same with everything I've ever done. But neither I nor anyone else allowed for it here. Next time I will.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I know a secret.... :ok: :ok: :ok:

G

[Hilico]

What? WHATTTTTT??!!?!?!!!

[Whirlybird]

I PASSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :)

(more details when I finish celebrating)

[Robbo Jock]

ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC !!!! Well done Whirly !

Fancy coming over to Derby to teach me a thing or two ?

[HelenD]

Congratulations Whirly.

[AerBabe]

Celebrating? I hardly think sitting playing with your cats, drinking coffee and saying you want to go to bed counts.

Pass the bubbly!

Well done, I guess I can tell everyone now? :ok:

[mad_jock]

Great news well done.

Who do we phone to get a lesson from you?


MJ

[pilotwolf]

Congrats again!

And we weren't misbehaving when you called! ;)

[[email protected]]

Very well done Whirly. Was it with Fred Cross again? Hope the hangover doesn't hurt too much!

[Whirlybird]

Thanks people. I'm hoping I might still have a job to go to, but I don't know yet. Who wants to be my first student? :eek:

crab , I decided to do the test with Mike Smith. I spent three days at Thruxton getting up to speed on the flying again, did the test yesterday, and drove home last night.

[Heliport]

Congratulations Whirly! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/clap.gif

http://home.hetnet.nl/~webpeople/Gifstxt/smileys/smile2.gif

[muffin]

Well done Whirly - gald you made it at last. I find Mike is a great confidence builder to fly with, so I think you made the right choice.

[Crashondeck]

Hi Whirly - Congratulations - it brings back memories!!

Not being a fan of long threads, I have only just managed to get the enthusiasm to follow all 6 pages. This thread should be saved, preserved and published for the next generations of FIs

I remember the pain of doing my course and always having the pressure of having a finish date. I expect you are feeling relief like you've never felt before.

Wish you the very best of luck getting a job. Your first lessons will be a little nervewracking, but by the end of the first week, you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about. Enjoy the world of instructing; I thoroughly enjoyed it and I miss it now that I cant instruct anymore (geographically challenged)

Hope you manage to find the energy to start a thread about instructing.

[Hobbit]

Anybody know of anywhere to do instructor training in Eire. I'm moving to Cork and am interested in doing an instructors course. Thanks

[RW-1]

Way to go! :ok:

[A109drvr]

Congrats Whirly!! I am so glad to hear that you stuck it out and completed this challenge..we were all rooting for you..this made my day!!!!:ok:

[whatsarunway]

Try a gentleman called Chris Shiel , if he cant help you he can sure point you in the right direction , he has training schools in galway and cork +353 91 792111

[MightyGem]

Excellent, well done. :ok:

[whirlycopter]

Nice one Original Whirly!

You must be chuffed to bits.

Inspired me to dust off the CPL manuals and get studying again!

Cheers!

[IHL]

Congratulations Whirly!
On being nervous ; I've been doing check rides for 25 years and I'm still a basket case until the before take-off check is completed. Once in the air I'm OK.

Best of luck instructing.


IHL:ok:

[Whirlybird]

Thanks everyone. To fill in a few gaps...after a week or so when I really couldn't even bear to think about it all, I knew I was going to have another crack at it. I started re-learning the theory stuff slowly, an hour or two a day...all I had actually since I have to earn a living occasionally. :( I went flying once to remind myself it was fun, a second time with an instructor so I could practise giving back a few exercises, then to a fly-in because...I wanted to go. I was supposed to practise EOLs with an instructor, but we had to pack it in as I wasn't feeling well and my coordination was crap...it was actually a flu-type bug that I spent the whole week in Thruxton trying to shake off, but I seemed to be able to fly by then. I kept fairly quiet about doing it; in fact hardly anyone knew. I'd arranged fairly early on to go back to Thruxton straight after Easter; I allowed two weeks for the whole thing, but ended up with three days flying, a drive to Wellesbourne on the Thursday night, and the test on Friday. We started at 10am and finally finished the paperwork etc just after 6pm!!!! Then I drove the nearly 100 miles home in the Friday evening traffic. Hmmm...no wonder I was tired.

Anyway, no job as yet, so I can't start a thread about it, even if I wanted to, and I'm not sure about any more live threads. But a few possibilities, so I'm hopeful...

[Ready2Fly]

Congratulations Whirly !

I just came back to PPRune after some weeks of absence and catched your thread just to see that you passed. After reading your diary you really deserved it. I press my thumb for you to get into 'business'. I am sure your students will have a lot of fun learning how to fly with you on the left hand seat. :ok:

Cheers!

[Old Man Rotor]

Amoungst the youngsters perhaps I'm a dinosaur..............but.

With guys and gals being shot down in combat being screened nightly on TV.......the normal every day demanding foul weather of the North Sea with Gals and Guys doing Rig Radar Approaches in the crappiest of weather and back via an ILS......the gals and gals in the GOM doing day and night flights also in crappy weather, not to mention folk downunder in Oz and NZ doing EMS all over the country. And our friends in the old USSR doing it hard with old iron workhorses.

But never a self indulgent moment being spoken, no not a one.

There are milestones in each aviators career, the QFI, is just the beginning.........most are done with grit, study and determination.....and most done in silence.

Be that good or bad...who knows?

I hope that this thread follows the norm......which I feel it must.

[greenthumb]

Well done Whirlybird,

i think you are a very good writer, without questions a very interesting woman and i'm shure you will go your own way. But sometimes i agree with OMR. To prepare your own website or newsgroup could be a nice trial. All interested ppruners could visit the page and read your steps into the biz.

Don't misunderstand me, but what's the next? A diary about your first student? The daily real questions and problems with customers, the weather, the boss, the helo's, maintenance, environment, next ratings and of course all the good and beautiful moments, shortly the alldays live of thousends of ppruners? Your way is a hard way, but you will go above all the steps, like all the others before.

You could have enough advices from the friends around you and you don't need the whole world to spot you.

[Slotty]

Congratulations Whirley, good luck on the first job:ok:

[Maximum]

Old Man Rotor.....at last some perspective on this thread...

whilst not wanting to appear a wet blanket, and wishing WB all the best, I've been finding this whole thread a little over the top.

call me an old cynic, but I can certainly attest to the fact that I and many (if not all) of my colleagues have never had this sort of praise heaped upon us throughout all the milestones and testing times of our professional careers, despite passing many military and civilian flight tests first time with no problems.

and all we get now is a knife in the back if we get it wrong....the reality of professional aviation.

lets have a little perspective.......

(...prepares for barrage of indignant abuse).

[Genghis the Engineer]

If people didn't talk about what they'd done in aviation Pprune would be a bit dull! And if people didn't want to read about it, WH Smiths wouldn't be full of aviation magazines.

I suspect from her later posts that Whirly may agree with you that the constant posts didn't necessarily do her any good, but it's not out of order to congratulate somebody for achieving something - whether it's a license, rating, marriage, baby or medal if they'd had to do some work towards it. It just happens that on PPrune we tend to restrict the praise for people who have achieved aviation goals.

Also many PPruners know each other as friends and colleagues and like to know what each other are up to.

I don't share Whirly's specific goals but have enjoyed reading about her aiming for them, just as I've no particular desire to be Prime Minister but enjoyed John Major's autobiography. Reading both was of-course entirely optional on my part.

(Remarkably little mention of Edwina Curry in both).

G

[Hobbit]

Thanks whatsarunaway I'll give him a ring.

[Camp Freddie]

hey,

anecdotal evidence tells me that there is now an instructor shortage in the UK, due to JAR closing the PPL + instructor rating route which I came through on myself.

In fact I heard of one person recently doing his FI(H) course who was being phoned up by a couple of training schools trying to recruit him before he even qualified.

how different from my day (late 1990's) and particularly about the year 2000 when there were 10 AFI(H)'s on every street corner or so it seemed and it was hard to get the first break.

and when I did get a break it was very slow building hours and experience, and I felt like I was percieved to a degree as a "scummy AFI" because there were so many of us chasing positions, where we did excessive hours at work for insufficent rewards (or so it felt at the time)

of course during 2001 CHC and Bristows hired a good number depleting the training schools, also there doesnt seem to be that many during instructor courses under JAR, because of the CPL and 300 hour requirement and I guess the £60k total spend or so required.

1) but hard evidence wise, is there really a shortage or were we just used to a glut and now it is more normal ?

2) if schools try and recruit what is their experience regarding availablity and quality of applicants compared to the recent past ?

3)will the status of for example the R22 instructor increase now, if they are in fact a bit rarerer (if thats a word!) and with that the pay £40 an hour for about the last 15 years as far as I can tell.

interested to hear the real situation on the ground !

[Rev]

Hi,

I think there is a shortage (in places). I have just finished an instructors course, the other guy on the course got a full time job within two days of finishing. I'm still looking but that sort of news makes me hopeful.
(I live in Hampshire, will travel, HINT! HINT!)
Seriously though, I think there are less people prepared to shell out 300hrs worth of cash plus 30hr FI course etc etc. I'm not sure R22 instructors will gain more status but you never know!

Rev

[charlie_s_charlie]

Typically how many hours per year do instructors in the UK clock up? I can't imagine it being many with both the weather and the relatively small size of the industry here.... am I right? If so, how do you guys survive??!

[kates]

Does anyone of you out there know what the JAR-FCL2 requires in terms of hours before an CPL H or PPL H holder can commence a flight instructor course?

For the aeroplanes I´ve heard that a newly qualified commercial pilot (aeroplane) with approx 200 hours can commence FI training - so I took a look at the JARs and found out that for rotary (JAR-FCL2 that is) there requirements are much higher i terms of flown hours. Can this be correct, or does my JAR-reading skills suck?

Kates

[Whirlybird]

You need 300 hours on helicopters before you can start the FI course.

[The Nr Fairy]

In the UK, it's 300 hours plus a 30 hour course at an approved organisation. Plus, if you're going to do the FI course, you need to already have a CPL if you want to get paid for it as well.

[Whirlybird]

Good idea about having a sticky for training requirements, charlie.:ok:

[Camp Freddie]

every time someone asks a question like this, the answers people get are always are always interpretations of the requirements. which may or may not be accurate or out of date.

I think we should be referring them to the source information, eg LASORS on the CAA website which answers many questions regarding the situation under JAR-FCL in the UK, comprehensively and in a manner which can still be understood.

in this case kates see

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_H.pdf

page 6.

[kates]

Thank you all for your answers.

However, I can't really understand why aeroplane pilots can qualify to commence a FI-course with only 200 hours TT and helicopter pilots needs 300 hours TT.

Any ideas why the JAR-FCL2 is different in this aspect from JAR-FCL1?

[helipat]

Hi,

in France (where we are still not JAR FCL2 compliant for helicopters):

You need to have 200 hours PIC in helicopter before doing the checkride.
You need to follow an approved ground and flight training.
You will have a checkride with an administration examiner.

You are then an IATH (deputy private flight instructor helicopter)

You will be allowed to instruct only for private pilot license.
If you are not CPL, you can not be paid for instructing.

After 100 hours of instruction, you'll become ITTH (private flight instructor helicopter), and you can deliver ratings.


If you want to instruct for CPL:
you need first to be IATH or ITTH and CPL.
you need 300 hours of total time helicopter and be approved by a civil aviation commission (usually they will ask more than 300 hours).
You will then be a deputy commercial flight instructor helicopter (ISPPH).

After a few years and probably a flight review with one of your student, and a minimum of 450 hours total time helicopter, you can be granted the full commercial flight instructor privileges.

On the job issue: not a lot of work either as CPL or flight instructor in France :ugh:

Patrick

[SEL]

This is a question I was asked recently that I couldn't really answer:

If you had the money to either go through from CPL(H) and get the 300 hours to do the Instructor course or do the CPL(H) and then an Instrument rating; which would you do?

This is following the JAA route in the UK and hoping to work here in the end, ideally. The lad concerned is obviously trying to find the best way to get a job and build experience. However, I'm not up on the state of the job market, never mind what it will be like in a few months time. I know there are some Instructor jobs out there but I dont know how many for a FI(R). As for instrument rating jobs, I dont know of any others in the UK except in the North Sea and I dont know the state of things up there.

Anyway, what do you all reckon? I thought it may be of use to others out there too.

(Personally, if I had that kind of money to spend, I wouldn't be able to trust myself......)

[arviator]

I would go for the IR. But then I have never been an instructor, so I do not know if that is a better step on the career ladder. I got an IR after my CPL and got a good job because of it. Good luck!!

[Up & Away]

Before 2000 there was little use of an IR onshore. (only Captains offshore North Sea) and then PPLs could Instruct!!

Now things have changed (JARS) so I would recommend having got a CPL get an IR first --- and an Instructors rating only if you want only to Instruct for life!!

Ask yourself what type of flying work do you want??

:cool: :confused: :cool:

[SEL]

Thanks for the advice fellas. By the look of the number of views, this thread is of wide interest.

If you were using an FI position to get hours, so that you could get do commercial work, then an IR, that would get you there straight away, would be preferable, I suppose.

I hadn't though about the p.i.c. time, not sure how they count co-pilot time. Have to look that up, good point!

If it would cost similar amounts to do either route, then I suppose it comes down to employment prospects. Are you more likely to get a job as an FI or as a CPL with an IR?

Thats still a question I can't answer, so lets ask the audience.......

[arviator]

I don't know about PAS being the best for IR training, but I do know that Bristow at Norwich provides excellant training on their 206, and that if they like you and there are vacancies then maybe, just maybe..............

[kates]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I do have some questions regarding the IR (in the UK)

1. How many hours are required on SE/ME helicopter?
2. Is there any possiblity to do these hours in an R22, or must this be an autopilot equipted helicopter?
3. Anyone willing to guess how much an IR-rating will cost?
4. How many hours is required after PPL H before one can commence IR-training?

thanks

[Woolf]

Bravo99

Unfortunately P2 time does not count towards P1 time at all. There is however the possibility of flying P1 under supervision which is kind of P1 but not quite. The rules regarding P1/US have changed recently and I am not sure what they are but I have heard that now this can only be done with a TRE (TRI?) - Anyone know more?

Even though the IR training school in Norwich is excellent it seems very unlikely that someone will pick up work from Bristows. As mentioned before this is only a single engine IR which practiacally is of no use. They also do a combined course which (I imagine) will be quite expensive. Cabair is OK but if you have no Twin Squirrel time it can be very difficult to achieve the results in the minimum hours. The R22 does help but once you are on the twin it all starts to happen very fast and you better try to keep up because every extra hour will be charged at £800+ !!!!

Although at the moment recruitment in the North Sea is almost non existent it has to be said that all operators (Bristow, CHC and Bond) do sponsored people for their IR's if required, so there is some hope there.

I'd probably go for the FI and keep my ear to the ground with regards to sponsored IR's but then again things always change.

Woolf

[arviator]

Apologies if I am wrong but, I do know that in the past some people who did their IR's at BHL at Norwich did get jobs at the end of the course. This was during a time of no recruitment. On the North Sea things change very quickly (from time to time!) and if you happen to be there then you might dip in.

All I'm saying is, is that its another option to paying £1000 per hour to do all your training on a twin, with the added bonus of meeting some great people, maybe getting a trip offshore (as a passenger), and maybe if your luck is in, news of jobs on the N. Sea before everybody else.

[Camp Freddie]

I have an IR and fly offshore in the UK, and formerly was a flight instructor, therefore claim a little knowledge of this subject.

the Instrument rating on a multi engine helicopter is now 55 hours, to include up to 20 or 40 hours in a procedural trainer or simulator depending on its class of approval.
also at least 10 hours in a IFR certified multi engine helicopter.
a single engine helicopter e.g R22 instrument trainer may well feature in the course to supplement the procedural trainer to achieve the 55 hours total.
other courses will differ in structure and feature more flight time in the IFR certified helicopter.
if you have a single engine IR al la bristows a further 5 hours instruction in multi engine helicopters is required plus a pre existing twin engine helicopter rating to make it a multi engine IR.
also prior to doing the IR 50 hours PIC cross country is required,
of which 10 hours must be in helicopters
SOURCE- LASORS 2004 part E.

this IR is going to cost the best part of £30k, there is no market for a low time CPL with IR in the UK except Bond, Bristow, CHC as P2 and none are currently recruiting. (bond have places sorted now I believe)

to me it depends how risk averse you are, the FI (R) rating will cost a little less (£23k approx, based on 115 hours building to go from 185 hours to 300 to do the FI course) and 30 hours for the FI course itself) but you will get work and enable your hours to build, annual pay not great though.

IR is high risk and is completely dependent on n.sea picking up.

if the money not a prob go for the IR first you could always do the FI course afterwards, if it is a prob do the FI course, at least you will be able to keep flying afterwards

basically FI = low risk, IR = high risk !!!

[Hedski]

Also IR comes down to 50 hours total if you already hold CPL. Just a little extra info for the brave! :8

[pil]

evening fling wingers.

as i apparently have more money than sense, i'm pricing up the cost of becoming a rotary instructor. currently i hold a cpl/ir(a) with the fi(a) all nicely stashed in my licence.
so my current understanding of what i need to do is as follows. could someone please let me know if i have missed anything out or completely lost the plot.

ok, to begin with get the ppl(h). according to lasors this can be yours for 39 hours tuition. fine. happy with that.
next i need to hour build up to 105 hours before i can start the cpl course. again no problems so far. looks like 66 hours banging round solo like a loon....

fine and dandy. next i need to do the theory side of things. according to lasors again, as i have completed all the atpl writtens for fixed wing, all i need to do is principles of flight as all the other exams are the same as the atpl(a) exams. that'll save a few squids....

then i start to get confused. now, because i hold a valid ir(a), the modular cpl(h) course is quoted as 20 hours vfr and 5 hours on instruments. so this takes me up to 130 hours on heli's.

i also need a night qualification training to gain a cpl. so the course is 5 hours (again a bonus of the ir). however, according to lasors, the nq can only be issued once you have logged 100 hours post ppl issue! now, for the cpl issue, only the training for a nq is required. do you still need the 100 hours post ppl aswell if you are applying for a cpl. if so then that puts a rather large spanner in the works. i suspect not, as i think this 100 hours is for people with a ppl wantig to fly at night, and a cpl has the night qualification embedded. however, if someone could clarify this i would be grateful.
anyway, back to the numbers. 39 (ppl) + 66 (hour building) + 25 (cpl training) + 5 (nq) = 135 hours.

you need 185 hours to get a cpl issued, however, 50 hours are credited from fixed wing if you hold a cpl(a). hurrah! hopefully that will be enough for the cpl(h).

good gravy me thinks. to start an fi(h) course you need 300 hours on heli's. a bit steep, but them there are the rules. the fi(a) means that i don't need to do the theory side, just the expensive flying part. a quick question about the fi. as a newbie, you are restricted to no first solol flights. as this restriction is removed from my fi(a) does this mean that i am automatically unrestricted as an fi(h). also, i have the night and instrument instruction restrictions removed from the fi(a). do these automatically get assigned to the fi(h) aswell? its not clear in lasors..


as for costs. well,
the ppl 39 hours @ £240 = £9380
hour building 66 hours @ £125 hours = £8250
cpl training and nq = £5970
add on test fees aswell = £1000
which gives me not much change from £25000. ouch!

somehow build hours up to 300, then add another 7200 for the fi rating aswell.

not much change from £33000, plus i have a mountain to climb post cpl to get the experience for the fi course. so if anyone has any tips or stories to help me that would be much appreciated. i do have a plan b up my sleeve, but the above way is the one i want to persue.

assuming all done in minima's, then i will walk away with 330 hours in helis, cpl(h)/fi(h) and a substantially reduced bank balance. beats working for a living anyway.


cheers

pil

[Heliport]

Merged threads.

[callie dog]

I would recommend Mike Horrell of MFH Helicopters based at Conington Airfield nr Peterborough, he has undertaken quite a few instructor courses in the past, also he will fly with you every day if you wish so you will get good continuity and a rating (hopefully) in the shortest possible time. Apart from that he is a good bloke.

Mikes number is 07779086911


Also I have just heard that following a meeting out in Innsbruck, the hours requirement for Heli instructing is to be reduced to 250. the only proviso being a pre course check ride with a CAA examiner (£££££££!!!) prior to starting. I believe this will be adopted as of June this year.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

I did an FI course at Tiger recently as posted in another thread that I cannot find just at present the notes on that thread where Pete Bings ground school Package was very good and comprehesive but he was not allowed to carryout the flying so Alan Ramson had to, but is went to rats becouse he was so busy

Richard the new instructor did his course with Mike Green at Fast and he was highly pleased with the course

I carried out my test with Mike and I could see why, mike even during the test was very helpfull and constructive

Got a first time pass so it could not have been that bad it just seemed to drag on and on.

Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

Heligaz

on not wishing to tread on Whirrygigs toes could you by any chance disclose the company that is looking for FI,s at present

as I am in the similar position

would it be the one at Halwarden

I would appreciate it, that is if you dont mind, also that is if you dont mind whirygig

if you do I understand

Regards

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[deeper]

Get a job, get some experience, become an instructor.

Mr.Selfish is right after all you cannot get you drivers licence and train someone to drive straight away. Imagine what the highways would be like.

The blind leading the blind, rising to the level of your green instructors incompetence.

Two thousand hours should be the lowest limit for helicopter instructors.
:suspect:

[callie dog]

Charlie S Charlie, yes there is a check ride presently but I think it is with a CFI, the new one I understand is with a CAA examiner - not sure if this will actually present any major difficulties but certainly having paid nearly £1000 for a Commercial check ride (examiner, heli hire and licence), I am concerned they do not fleece us on the day.

As for implementation, my understanding is that the CAA are implementing from June.


As an extra thought why is a Commercial check ride nearly 3 times the cost of a PPL check ride and why is the licence more expensive as well!!!

[idle stop]

I think I'm right that at current rates your CAA Examiner's pre-entry check ride will be £150. Set this against the savings of 49 hours worth of SFH and it's got to be a bargain.

[callie dog]

I dont disagree it is a huge saving and hopefully brings forward the day I can earn a penny or two, I guess I am like a lot of other people qualified and poor and not wanting to pay out more than I have to.

[spinningwings]

HELP ....I think I've had a breakdown ......

After 27 years working in the Heli industry I've gone and signed up to do my (official) instructors rating .... can somebody PLEASE PLEASE tell me whats come over me ??????


Yeah I know about the terminal insanity! (ha ha) :} :uhoh: :ok:

[Bomber ARIS]

spinningwings,

I seem to have been struck with the same "idea"!:}

Once upon a time, I gave around 500 hours of dual instruction and I confess to missing it. I´m considering moving to Australia and would like to pick up an instructor rating. I would like to know whether I would be able to each on twins or does one need to do a Type Rating Examiner course as in Europe?

Forgive the lazy questions, but I'm a long way from Oz and my research thus far has been fruitless.

Thanks

P.S. Does anyone know if Australian type ratings are recognised by JAA, i.e. can type ratings on my Aus licence be transferred to my JAR one?

[Whirlygig]

Heard the rumour from an instructor - they sometimes post here so I hope they might have a bit more info. I think it is still at "rumour" stage - haven't about about timings.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Robbo Jock]

What's the rationale ? For the new guys 300 is way too many. For the folk that have been around a while, 300 is way too few. Making it 250 still falls between the same two stools, giving the new guys not a lot less to aim for while giving the old bold ones more ammo.

[AllJeep]

Considering today is April 1st, I would take it for what it is... A Rumor.

[Camp Freddie]

if it is true then it would bring people more or less back to where they were Pre Jar

I had 270 hours total when I started to instruct, and if it did become 250, that would make 280 rather than 330, so its not much of a change really.

bet its an april fool though.

[Helinut]

Remember all this lot is set down in a JAR so strictly its not for the CAA to change it. Of course they often ignore or twist rules if they want to :( If its true, it will be interesting to see how they justify the change :=

[Woolf]

Rumour is true - the entry requirement will most likely be changed to 250h in the future. It still has to go through the proper procedures until it finally does get included into JAR FCL 2 (NPA .... etc) not quite sure how long this will take. The UK CAA might be able to issue a long term excemption a bit earlier but that is up to them.

Camp Freddie, don't agree really, 50h are 50h and a lot of money as well (£8000 to £10000?)

Helinut: It's always difficult to set a number like this and unfortunately most of the Helicopter requirements seem err more on the side of caution. I am not going to argue whether Helicopter flying is more difficult than fixed wing flying but if you look at respective requirements you could think that it must be as the differences are quite remarkable!


Regards,

Woolf

[kissmysquirrel]

Have heard from a reliable source that it's likely that sometime this year (june/july/aug) the requirements for instructor course entry is to be reduced to 250hours. Not an April fool.!:ok:

[Camp Freddie]

anyone have a list of the people and location/contact details who can renew my instructor rating by flight test in the southeast of the UK, in the past I have gone to Mike Green but I am told he has left Fast now.

regards

CF

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Fred Cross is the only one I can think of 07760347055
if not he will know how can

Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

PS no joy with CHC Yet still advising August before things kick off.
I think they have sorted out there pilot requirements but they are waiting to see the full extent of the migration to Bonds before they move on things hope to see you up there later in the year.

AJB

[kissmysquirrel]

there are 5 people who can do the renewal.
1. Mike Green ex Fast Heli's. Believe he is freelance now but still working.
2. Philip Sheldon at Aeromega but he's usually very busy.
3. Mike Smith from HeliAir
4. Fred Cross
5. Andy Gutteridge. I can recommend Andy as I did a renewal with him last week. Very educational. He's at Oxford Aviation at Kidlington.

[Datcon]

Mike Smith at HeliAir is an outstanding instructor with decades of experience and 20,000+ instructing hours. If you want to learn more about instructing as well as just getting your renewal there aren't many people as good, and nobody better.

[Camp Freddie]

thanks for the replys guys,

anyone have a mobile number for Mike Green, please PM it if you dont want to post.

Bravo99 - Good luck, let me know what happens

regards

CF

[The Nr Fairy]

CF:

Try asking the guys at FAST - I think they'd still have his number !

[Heliport]

Endorse the Mike Smith recommendation - an outstanding instructor.

No reflection on the others named - I've heard good reports about Mike Green but don't know him or know anything about the others.

[Up & Away]

Can confirm ALL mentioned are Good.. but only Fred is CAA.

:ok:

[SEL]

My vote would be for Andy Gutteridge at Oxford

Andy did Fred Cross' Instructor renewal a week or so ago!

You'd have to go a long way to find a nicer and more professional bloke.

[Helinut]

Check what they fly, if you want to do your test on a particular type. They do not all fly all the standard training types.

[helicam]

I have heard that in order to get insured to instruct in R22s in the United States you need 300 hours total time, any one heard of this rule.

I know that the Hughes 300 is a popular aircraft in the U.S but so is the Robinson..

[Miles_JAN]

To the pilot of the Robinson R22, registration G-SBUT, who was flying around Colsterworth roundabout (A1/A151). Thank you for dropping into the field that I landed the glider in (JAN, White glider with red nose, rudder and red/white ailerons). I was fine, there was no damage caused to the glider, the only injury was my sense of humour (Which was rapidly restored when 2 police cars, 3 fire tenders and 7 ambulances turned up 10 minutes later following a report that an aircraft had crash landed in a field on the A1 with 7 PAX...I know the landing was bit ropey, but it's only a singe seater for chrissakes!). The concern was most appreciated. Good example of people looking out for each other (And proof that helicopters aren't that bad after all ;->).

Oh yea, and the Military Asreolhe in a bright yellow firefly about 10mi north of Colsterworth. Open your eyes...and don't carve gliders up when they're thermalling.

Miles.

[matt247]

Hi,

I'm trying to find a current NZ helicopter instructor who might be in the UK and able to sign me off on a B206 so that I can have my licence endorsed?

If anyone can help I'd be very grateful. I have a NZ CPL(H) and am in the UK, and just need to be signed off.

Cheers,

Matt

[Jcooper]

Likes:

You learn a lot about everything including regs, book work, flying, people, learning, etc. Ill be the last one to admit it (actually the first one in this case) but it is actually quite rewarding to see someone solo for the first time and you taught him to do it. In fact instructing is prolly when you have the most impact on society at large because those people you taught will one day be in a position to save lives, keep power going, etc.

Dislikes:

Mundane, monotonous, tedious work. Same thing day after day, hour after hour, with a couple seconds of shear horror thrown in just too screw with your head. High stress levels, sometimes unachievable expectations, students stresses and complaining, etc. Sitting there while the other guy gets to fly, fighting complacency and fatigue, losing the "touch."

Overall:

Don't enjoy doing instructing full time but part time with more commercial work might not be a bad gig. Its invaluable experience I wouldnt do again if I would have had another choice :)

[SEL]

Here's a simple question for you all.

Who would you recommend to teach an FI(H) course in the UK?

Oxford, Cabair, Fast, Tiger.........?

Cheers

[Whirlybird]

Fast was brilliant, but Mike Green has left....... :{ :{

[MaxNg]

Jcooper

great fun and if you are the type of person that enjoys helping people then this is a great job in aviation with the added bonus of increased flying skill and personal confidance, it can be tedius if this is the only flying you get and therefor a mix of commercial work and instructing can be a very rewarding career, the company I trained with in Canada had a policy of sending thier insrtuctor pilots out into the bush every now and again so as not to burn them out.

This was good for them and good for the students as the instructors were able to teach more than just the flying sylabus and tended not to be low time recently qualified guys, but very experienced working pilots.

Like most jobs in aviation, it should not be the only one that you aspire to do, but I can recommend it to anyone who enjoys helping others develope thier own skills.

Cheers

[Johe02]

I can recommend Glen Wells at Heliair - Wellesbourne

[Flingingwings]

FAST still are brilliant, just go to Shoreham and ask for Ian MacGregor:ok:

[2Sticks]

I'd give Helicopter Services at Wycombe Air Park a try. They have wide experience, can train and examine at all levels and are great group of people to work with. Leon Smith (Chief Pilot) operates on the 'straightforward' (i.e. no bullsh!t) principle. They can be reached on 01494 513166 or [email protected].

2Sticks

[Staticdroop]

Instructing is a good way to get into the business and you can learn a lot initially, however you will get bored beyond belief with only the break of having the odd student who is enjoyable to fly with. It needs to be mixed with some other flying or only done for a couple of years otherwise you will go mad and never go anywhere:8

[Winnie]

I like instructing, I find it very satisfying to watch my students graduate, learn tyo hover and so on.

I have also learned a great deal, about mistakes I won't make again, and mistakes i won't let others make when I'm in the aircraft, flying with various people, with different personality trends and so on. Great fun, but also like to work occasionally.

MaxNg, would the name Modak tell you anything?

[GroundGirl]

KMS - you wouldnt happen to be ex fast staff would you?

[Flingingwings]

KMS,

Not staff with FAST, and never have been:{

But know you aren't able to say likewise :E

[Johe02]

SEL

You might want to consider training with a company that promises work after you pass. . ?

Good luck

[GroundGirl]

KMS - I may have been closer than you think!! PM me if you like

[Flingingwings]

KMS,

Guessed as much:E

Can assure you I'm not DE or ML.
Might share one day :uhoh:

[The Flashing Blade]

Heard from several sources that the JAR instructor pre-course hours requirements were coming down from 300 to 250 this summer.

Someone even mentioned to me 200 ??

Does anyone know if and when this may be happening?

FB

[Flingingwings]

Hours came down to 250 about a week ago.

Although yet to see any AIC confirming this.

[Woolf]

Morning all,

As with all changes to JAR FCL documents the amendments have to go through the proper consultation process which can take quite a while. The change to entry requirements for instructors (250h) has been agreed on by the JAA Licensing Sub-Sectorial Team for helicopters earlier this year. This and other proposed changes to JAR-FCL 2 are now published as NPA FCL-2-20 (Notice of proposed amendment) until the 1st of September 2004. This will give everyone the opportunity to register any concerns they may have on the document. Once the consultation is over the Licensing Sectorial Team will discuss the matter again and suggest further changes if necessary which are then referred to the Sub-Sectorial team. With a bit of luck it could all be agreed by this summer. Also as soon as the text has been formally approved by the JAA the CAA will be able to issue a temporary exemption until JAR-FCL 2 has been reissued.

The NPA FCL-2-20 can be found here (http://www.jaa.nl/catalogue/npas/480917.pdf).

Hope this helps, just hang in there it’s going to happen!

Woolf

[spinwing]

I don't really think I'm really happy about a new chum with 250 hrs doing helicopter instructing !!!!

I know this will probably stir up all sorts of invective but I'm afraid I've probably been around a bit too long and no doubt seen too much !

:uhoh: :oh:

[Jarvy]

Well how about me doing commercial with my 240 hrs then?? (actually I haven,t yet but could). Didn,t it use to be 200 and still is for planks I belive.
I wish they would hurry up and change it as more work for instructor than commercial.

[Woolf]

It's always very difficult to come up with numbers like these. I am sure there are very good pilots with 250h and there are others .... It's worth remembering though that this is a pre requisite requirement and only allows you to start an FI(H) course. Additionally the applicant must also take a pre entry flight test with an FIE(H) who will assess suitability.

[CS-Hover]

hi

see this way....

under FAA, for you to start you CFI (certified flight insctructor) trainning , must at least, more than 18year old and a commercial certificate (see § 61.183 Eligibility requirements (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=c8290e4a46298a9ceaed461d99f7883f&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.8.1.2&idno=14) )
so, technally, and in reallity, a person, can after finished is commercial (intrument ratting normally goes with a CFII , certified flight intreument instructor) start a instrcutor course, and after that, start working as a flight instructor

in fact, this is the way, to build hours to a better job (plane guy's go the same route...) ou someone know's a better (with better means commercial operation, payment... etc..) ??

ok, maybe this put's the question, "his this fresh instructors (when associatesd to low timer's in helis) good instructors... ?? "
that i think will have many opinions.... and different ones... :O

but if you look, that all high time pilots (experienced ones) plus with an instructor rating prefer (mayority) to work commercial, instead of instructiong... (who blame thems .... ) you will see, that right now, the "system" for Civilian Starting 0 hours Heli-Pilots, to gain experience (hours) is to start instructing (whennever they are good pilots and / or good instrucors)

(the unique requiremnt that i'm remebering now, for instructing, is the SFAR 73 or something like that, expecifically for robinson instruction, that requieres at least 200hrs of helicopets with some (can find the sfar, if you want..) in a R22 or R44....


in europe, with JAA, this is a little more difficult, because the requirements of hours/experience is a little different...

what i see, with this possible chance, is that "maybe" there was some "pressure", because, for one side the difficult so low timers/fresh finishers to build up hours in com.ops other than flying instruction, since the other side, is that most experienced pilots (or when arrive to a more or less experienced level) "jump" to com.ops...

but, as many other things with JAA (now EASA, i think, or something like that..) it will take time, to be done...

meanwhile, to be a instructor under JAA, you will be required to a level of experience , that if you have, "maybe you don't want to be a instructor in fisrt place.."

this is a resume, of my point of view, how the things in flight instructiont/build experience go.... i'm NOT entering in the discussion if it is good or not....

and if you know, other ways to go around (build experience thing)
i think that will be many interestd in...

sorry my english...
cheers

[G_STRING]

Know this one's been done a lot on the instructors & private pilots forum, but I'm curious as to whether it goes on in the rotary world:

Are, because of inability to get a class one medical, (or any other reasons), there any rotary instructors out there who instruct unremunerated, just because it's their ambition?

This goes on in the fixed wing world, but with the expense of rotary training, does it ever go on in this one?

Any input would be interesting

[Whirlybird]

Well, I'm just about making enough to cover expenses of getting to the airfield(s), Class 1 medicals etc. So not quite unrenumerated...and might pick up the future.

[Ascend Charlie]

So, are you saying that in the UK, somebody without a valid licence or qualification can teach??

In Oz, if you aren't qualified, you don't do it. Somebody might do a little unofficial instruction, but the recipient can't log the time and it wouldn't count towards the hours, and if found out it would be big trouble.

How do your fixed-wing people get away with it??

[CS-Hover]

you don't need a class 1 medical, to give instruction... plus, this doens't mean that you aren't qualified....

tottaly unrenumerated, don't know, but like Whirlybird said, know a few....

[Grainger]

Well, it's an option that I have been considering. The situation in the UK is weird. You do still need to have the proper instructor training and qualifications but as I understand it, you can instruct without a Class 1 medical if you do so unremunerated.

Ascend: Oz may be different but then I'd have no difficulty getting an Australian Class 1 anyway so for me the problem wouldn't arise.

I love flying and I also love teaching, so it would make sense from that point of view, if not from an economic one. Having been lucky and fortunate enough to have been flying helicopters for ten years, it would be really nice to give something back. Plus, of course, one of the best ways to continue to learn and improve your own skills at doing something is to teach it.

Two reasons that would make me reluctant to do so - firstly, would there be insurance implications, and secondly I wouldn't want to take work away from other instructors like Whirly who are working hard to make a living out of it.

Still looking for options though - I've got a couple of ideas that I'm working on at the moment, so I too would be interested in experiences from anyone in a similar situation.

What's your own position, G_STRING ?

[Whirlybird]

The situtation in the UK is that you need a CPL in order to accept remuneration (ie be paid). To get a CPL, you need a Class 1 medical. However, you can be an instructor if you demonstrate CPL knowledge (ie do the ground exams) and do the FI course. But you can't be paid. Make sense? Don't ask! :confused:

Grainger,
Do what you want to do. I only ever planned to instruct part time; the day job is OK, pays better, and isn't weather and medical dependent. I'd like to do a little more than break even, but breaking even is OK; I can survive. I just can't afford to keep paying to fly helicopters. But I've had at least one instructor get annoyed at me for taking the work from people who need to do it fulltime...the words "taking the bread out of my mouth" were used, honestly. Is it my fault he gave up his other job, before he knew that he could make a living from instructing? I work 7 day weeks sometimes, but it's my choice. Anyway, I keep quiet now. So, Grainger and anyone else, if you want to do unpaid instructing, good luck to you. :ok: But I'd suggest you keep very very quiet about it to your colleagues.

Now, I've gone and opened up that whole can of worms again, haven't I? :(

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Instructing can be great when you get a motivated student with some talent but lets face it for new pilots you spend loads of cash to fly for a living, and then what happens you sit there and watch someone else fly torture or what.
I have been doing it for about 2 years some days it's great some days it's not, doing some other flying I think is a must else you are going to get bored.
Just a quicky how meny peeps teach engine offs to the ground?

[VeeAny]

Or some companies will pay you as an admin assistant / toilet cleaner, pay always seems to reflect hours flown (can't think why)....

[spinwing]

I am sure that there are many good 250 hr pilots who have been trained by GOOD instructors BUT I still have a problem with the concept that a 250 (+50??) hr pilot will have the background and the REAL COMMERCIAL OPERATING experience to be able to pass on to a new chum the tricks of the trade. Heli ops arn't like fixed wing ops.

As probably all of the "high time" Instructors reading this might attest teaching a new chum how to keep it the "right way up" is the the easier (?) bit .... then you really have to set the "this will keep you alive and in one piece" processes in place .... and that is where the years of experience come into it.

:ooh: :oh: :ok:

Good luck all the same ....