Right-turns at GLG (EGPF)

[loganairlad]

Just a query:

When jet deps are departing 05 at GLA (as they've been doing mostly this week), there seems to be differences between controllers on 124.82 as to whether a/c are granted a right-hand direct DCS/heading or whatever from the GLG or turn left on NGY SID and then get turned South again before they intercept the PTH radial.

Obviously the main factor is arrivals from LANAK being vectored for 05, but it seems that some guys & gals send everyone on the detour round to the left while some send them right with no-speed to cut a bit of time whenever possible.

Is there an element of a personal thing? Does it depend who's on 129.22/126.3/119.1 or are there time periods when the noise is a factor over North-West Glasgow and some times when it isn't?

I know some guys check in thinking they have a devine right for a right-turn and get a bit cheesed off when told to follow the SID!

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You start off with an empty bag of experience and a full bag of luck. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

[10W]

The answer is some of the above.

It doesn't really matter who is on the other frequencies since you will be either keeping the traffic out of their airspace, or else delivering it to them in the anticipated manner.

It's entirely a personal choice then, taking into account the traffic around. It's not only LANAK arrivals that need to be considered. There are probably EDI jet departures, EDI arrivals from TRN, TMA overflights, and slower turboprop departures from GLA ahead to consider as well.

If anyone gets cheesed off, then please let us know before departure. That way we can hold you on the ground till a suitable gap exists to permit a non standard right turn. But it may take a little time !! :)

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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[form49]

It generally depends on the traffic situation is the best answer to your question, basically is a previous departure of 05 is going right, i.e DCS, TRN, TLA (very rare), then the jet jockeys are unlikely to get the right turn, not being an area controller, only a humbe aerodrome controller, I wouldn't have thought that it would be a personal thing, at the end of the day,the sooner the a/c are safely off your frequency the better, the area guys and gals are extremely busy, so perhaps in order not to complicate things (knowing that the SIDs are separated from the STARs then perhps that's why.
Who knows?
At GLA we'lltry and tie up the turn, if we don't have time to co-ordinate, then we'll QSY early so that the sector controller can decide.
Hope it helps!!

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Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[North of the Border]

10w"s third para is basically correct but there are some other factors to take into account. LL/SS/GW arrivals have to be to the east of KK/HI arrivals and Paris landers and overflights. So if you are departing from PH landing at KK and have to stay on the SID outbound routing it can be to position you in traffic to the west of PF departures landing at LL/SS/GW

NOTB

[Davey Clark]

10W is right in all that he says, but don't forget the difference in a/c climb profile.

Turning a jet a/c right at the GLUG will mean a lot less track miles to exit point of sector (usually DCS in this case, but can be TLA or TRN) which will inevitably lead to more internal co-ordination.

Also, a good controller on 124.82 should be looking north of GLA to see what traffic at FL290/330/370 there is heading for DCS, and try to help the guys on 129.22 by offering him climbing jet traffic in a sensible manner. For example, if a right turn off the GLUG will position the climbing traffic right underneath a couple of overflights at, say, FL330 and FL370, and the climbing jet is requesting a cruise level of FL370, then it much better to let the climbing jet turn left, follow the SID until it is north of the overflights, then turn the climber direct to DCS, setting-up a stream for 129.22! This means less work for the person on 129.22, and a much better chance for the climber to be allocated his requested level, and not just capped at FL290.

Hope that made sense, coz it confuses me when I try it at work!

[The Fat Controller]

It's never personal !!
It's just a matter of the traffic offering into the sector, along with the need to avoid the inbounds to LANAK from either the TLA or TRN direction, right turns can seriously hamper PF Radar getting traffic across for 05, plus the previously departed turboprops. As I explained to an E145 a couple of days ago, if he went right he would shortly be wearing an SF34 on his nose, he happily went left, turned through the overhead, was positioned to the west of the LL/SS traffic...........etc,etc. Hope that adds to the overall picture, come and have a look sometime, it would be nice to see more of our customers.

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FATCO

[loganairlad]

Thanks very much for all your very useful feedback guys! I didn't know about the EGKK vs. other London airports thing - very interesting but makes sense.
Cheers once again.

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You start off with an empty bag of experience and a full bag of luck. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

[Carnage Matey!]

Idle curiousity - been on 05 deps for the last few days, told to contact 126.3 when on left turns at GLG and 124.82 when turning right. Who controls which airspace?

[AyrTC]

Carnage Matey

You have probably been departing just when the TMA is being "split".During quiet periods
ie middle of the night we can officially bandbox sectors ie 126.3 and 124.82 are put together.When the traffic begins to build up we then open up the approriate positions.

Generally if you depart PF you should be put to 124.82("TMA OUT" if you wish).However depending on traffic coordination,QFU etc if
you plan to depart via TLA you may be put to 126.3.

Generally 126.3 handles some PH deps and arriving traffic for PF,PH,PK and northbound overflights("TMA IN").
rgds
ATC :)