Skippy in the Sunday Times

[cleared2land 27left]

Rod Eddington was quoted in an aritcle in the Sunday Times business section quoting that allowing take offs and landings on both runways at the same time at LHR would increase capacity. I cant see that myself but maybe others can enlighten me!

The logistics of the whole thing are real difficult, all norths off 27R and souths from 27L? Of course the airlines would need to alter their schedules so there was a exact balance of north and southbounds all day!

[Evil Jethro]

Perhaps using 23 simultaniously? (don't say it too loud)...shoot the gap!!

[shack]

Here we go, I remember (that marks me as an old sod) when I was at Heathrow in the 60’s and we did the so-called parallel landing trials, using both runways for arrival and departure. All approaches had to be monitored by PAR (remember that?) because the distance that the runways are apart is below the minimum for parallel approaches.
Apart from any other reasons it made GMC’s life even more misery than usual because you could bet your sweet life that the departures for the south runway had to cross somewhere with the departures for the north runway and the same applied to the landers. It was not exactly easy for the two No2 directors either, what spacing would you allow for say a DC3 followed by a Trident or Convair 990 knowing that the airman had to get a departure away between the two.
You also stood a good chance at certain periods of the day, of say north side having little traffic and the south side being loaded and poor GMC had to sort it out.
Thankfully it was abandoned. It was easier getting the odd departure off of 23 in between but that screwed you up for holding points!!

[PaulDeGearup]

The LHR system works extremely well why would anyone want to blx it up? Skippy should sit at CDG during the peaks - great if you are a spotter but a nightmare otherwise!

[ATCO Two]

Hi CTL27L,

This is nothing new - it's called mixed mode operations. I did some work on this some years ago with special regard to the GMC situation. It involves unidirectional routes and is very inflexible, but a computer model was created and it could be made to work. If I remember correctly the air situation did not rely exclusively on Northbounds from 27R and Southbounds from 27L. SIDs were mooted that were completely independent and separated from each other vertically. Using mixed mode I believe ACL could schedule 90 movements an hour at Heathrow, so not a huge capacity increase, especially when measured against the stress amd hassle factors for the Controllers. Have a chat to me if you want to know more.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm sure Mr Eddington would like to pop across and do a couple of hours of mixed-mode on GMC.... Tee Hee!

[cleared2land 27left]

Thanks for the replies.

Atco2 I will have a chat after christmas as im on leave (ah the joy of training) (did I just say that!!!!????).

Shoot the gap. Sounds fun!

Shack, I know about Tridents and DC3s but what on earth is a Convair 990????

I think mr Eddington should have a go at bandboxed ground at 7.00am on a Monday morning and see what havoc his airline creates southside!

[Evil Jethro]

Shack,

Perhaps the runways are further apart now, but parralel approaches are now permitted..under certain conditions (day VMC etc etc)or has that always been the case?

[shack]

C2l&27L


The Convair CV990 was a four jet of the same generation and size as the B707 and the DC8. As far as seeing it at Heathrow, as I remember it was only Swissair and Spantax that used them, they used to came hurtling down the ILS at 180 kts trailing black smoke, with spoilers on the wings banging in and out, rather than ailerons, a fearsome sight to behold. It was a hard choice between a CV990 and an Aeroflot TU104 as to which was the worse to have if you were a bit tight on spacing, the 990 because of it’s speed or the 104, because no matter how many times you asked them not to so, they would drop their braking parachute on the runway and Pixie as it was then, now Checker, would have to nip on the runway, bundle up the parachute,(no mean feat in itself), dump it in the van and clear the runway before the next lander/departure.

Evil Jethro

A nice thought that the runways have been moved further apart, perhaps it happened when they changed from 28/10s to 27/09s?
Yes one occasionally did parallel approaches but only in day/full VMC and normally with an Aer Lingus Viscount freighter that wanted to go to the cargo area that in those days was on the North Side of 28R.

[Hairy Growler]

Aer Lingus Viscounts??!! North side cargo area??!! Cv990's. Blimey Shack, you have seen a few things eh ;-)

[Avman]

I think that you would increase capacity with simultaneous use of both runways both for take off and landing. You would need to extend the spacing between arrivals but certanly not have to double it. You should see how the yanks make full use of runways. Or, and I may shoot down my own theory here, does anyone have peak period stats for EGKK (LGW)? Double that and this would give you the maximum possible at LHR using both runways a la LGW. Now compare this to stats on single runway occupancy (either landings or departures) at LHR.

[daft fader]

Ah, cv990s

Plus of course Vanguards Caravelles Britannias and 720s

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Mr Avman. It's all been said a million times before - invaraibly by people who have little comprehension of ATC procedures. The spacing at Heathrow is about as tight as you can SAFELY get it during peak periods. We can use 2.5nm spacing but I've yet to meet a pilot who likes it and it would not be possible to go any closer, given that aircraft also have to cross the runways on the ground! Even now, with the airport supposedly approaching its peak, there are times during the day when traffic drops off - middayish for a distinct drop off in inbounds.

The system works very well and there are a variety of reasons why we cannot adopt US type procedures over here. Get someone to abolish noise-abatement and we'll show you how to shift a few planes...