You are all Pratts.........

[BRL]

...........according to Adam Trimingham, a 'reporter' for the Brighton Evening Argus. In his weekly column, he comments on the plans for expansion at Shoreham Airport. Basically, he is behind the idea of more commercial flights to and from Europe and wants the runway extended to accommodate these potential flights.

This is what he says about you.......
It's the little weekend planes, often flown by prattish pilots, that make the most noise followed by the police helicopter.
A reduction in pleasure flying would be welcome by everyone fed up with the constant whirr of small aircraft overhead. (The Argus, Wed Sept 8th, '04.)

What a pratt eh........ :rolleyes:

[FingersR]

charming! :mad:

[Maxflyer]

Perhaps rather than igniting an us against the press conflagration, could this reporter be encouraged to visit a local flying school and made to understand the hoops that have to be gone through in order to obtain a PPL?

Also I'm sure that the local Police chopper has better things to do than chasing spam cans around the Sussex skies.

[FeistyFlyingFox]

That's a shame AT feels that way. I agree with you MaxFlyer, perhaps he should go to a local flying school cos I never realised til I started my flying lessons just how much hard work it is to get a PPL and how much hard work and dedication the instructors undertake to help us get there!

FFF v1.2

PS BRL - FFF does drink other things apart from FuFu's - he has been known to have the odd beer or two ya know!! Still, now that FFF explained what FuFu means I will have a chuckle with you at GatBash if you are there!! ;)

[Monocock]

It seems that The Argus felt the same way about Adam as we do.

He was fired from there a month ago!! I have just phoned them to ask to have a chat with him.
:}

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Why is the police helicopter following all these prattish pilots? :E

[BRL]

I was told he had retired on his 60th birthday recently but still writes for the paper :confused:

I can't find the article on line for you all to read, but if any of you feel the need to reply to what is written above, or to request the full article, then you can e-mail the paper direct............
[email protected]

[wbryce]

reporters are all pratts......

[c-bert]

A Pratts Special.

Sorry. :(

[Aerobatic Flyer]

The wording the writer uses is stupid and emotive, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that the sentiment he expresses is not shared by the majority of his readers.

On a sunny weekend some parts of the South of England are indeed pretty noisy, with large numbers of pilots - prattish or otherwise - enjoying themselves. I generally enjoy watching them, but most people find them a nuisance.

GA needs to quieten down, unfortunately.:(

[formationfoto]

Surely it is the prattling if ignorant elderly reporters which is the greater danger to the good people of the south coast

[RodgerF]

quote:

elderly

At 60????

[Lowinverted]

>>I can't find the article on line for you all to read, but if any of you feel the need to reply to what is written above, or to request the full article, then you can e-mail the paper direct............<<

Search for him using google, there's plenty on him there.

[LondonJ]

Maybe it is also worth mentioning to Mr AT that airline pilots all start off as a 'prattish' pilots in light aircraft, no airline pilots and funnily enough, no more air travel.

I am sure though that one journalist's rantings in a local paper will not alter any plans that Shoreham had.

[ACW 335]

If you have a bigger machine does that make you a bigger pratt?? :}

[cblinton@blueyonder.]

BRL

He wanted to have the airport closed down after my departure a couple of years ago, so I must be a huge PRATT:{

[KCDW]

Surely he was commenting on aircraft with Pratt & Whitney engines?

[MikeJeff]

I am a pratt. lot of my mates used Trevor Thom tho!

[MLS-12D]

Like all generalizations, it's such a stupid, vile thing to say. I wonder if he writes articles featuring derogatory comments about "most Americans/West Indians/Muslims/Jews/policemen/physicians/youths", etc. :(

The idea of taking reporters up for a flight and acquainting them with the realities of light aviation is usually a good one; but this fellow has proven himself so prejudiced that he is probably a lost cause. I'd suggest that the time and effort involved would be better spent entertaining a more neutral reporter, who might be open-minded or at least not such a demonstrable bigot.

[Final 3 Greens]

Stakeholder management is the answer and GA hasn't got a clue what that is.

[Maxflyer]

I am inclined to think that if someone went out in southern England on a bright and sunny Sunday afternoon armed with noise measuring equipment, the decibel level would be far greater from lawnmowers, hedge trimmers, motorbikes etc and with a longer duration than that of light aircraft.

[rotorcraig]

No folks, you're all wrong. It says here (http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/news/2004/07july/040721free.shtml) that he's a top bloke.

They've even named a bus after him. Let's hope it drives round quietly, and doesn't make any noise resulting in even more fed up people :p

RC

[MLS-12D]

I don't know any journalists, but if publishing ill-founded sterotypes such as "little weekend planes (are) often flown by prattish pilots" is evidence of "the highest standards of professional integrity (in journalism)", then those standards are obviously low indeed.

One can only hope that the apparent tradition of naming buses after the dead becomes a fulfilled prophecy (I don't normally wish people ill, but those who combine the ability to influence public opinion with spite and gross irresponsibility are undeserving of any charity from their intended victims).

[Final 3 Greens]

A three part question for those who think that this journo is a prat...

1 - what are stakeholders?

2 - why are they important?

3 - how can you influence their perspectives/feelings?

So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.

I'll give you a clue - start thinking in pluralistic terms and theorising how others may perceive your flying.

Only when this analysis has been made, can a strategy be developed to engage the support of people who may be anti.

Calling skilled opponents childish names gets you "nil points" and ultimately loses the end game.

There are a lot a Shoreham based flyers on this BB and you know a lot more about your subject than the journo. You have considerable leverage.

What concrete steps are you going to take to reduce his influence and build yours, with your stakeholders?

[Monocock]

Maybe we ARE all pratts?!

I'm happy to be a pratt if I can fly.

[c-bert]

A three part question for those who think that this journo is a prat...

1 - what are stakeholders?

2 - why are they important?

3 - how can you influence their perspectives/feelings?

So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game.

I'll give you a clue - start thinking in pluralistic terms and theorising how others may perceive your flying.

Only when this analysis has been made, can a strategy be developed to engage the support of people who may be anti.

Calling skilled opponents childish names gets you "nil points" and ultimately loses the end game.

There are a lot a Shoreham based flyers on this BB and you know a lot more about your subject than the journo. You have considerable leverage.

What concrete steps are you going to take to reduce his influence and build yours, with your stakeholders?





Can anyone spot the management consultant? :ok:

[MikeJeff]

Final 3 Greens,

You make valid points. I think!? However, in reality, it's only private flyers that are even going to take issue with this babble! non flyers will read it and file it away.

Unlike some very small but busy airfields, Shoreham is a big employer in the community. I'm not sure how many people are employed either directly by the airport or by one of the many flying schools, or by the franchised restaurants, or by the engineering firms etc etc needless to say it goes into several hundreds. Conversly AMEX is the biggest employer in Brighton and doesn't have more than 1,000 based in Brighton. So in community terms as well as airport terms, Shoreham Airport is quite a big player.

That said we fly over Brighton which is more densley populated than many urban areas so we have a lot of people to p1ss off and should be considerate to that too.

[jumpseater]

F3G is absolutely spot on, and c-bert, he may be a management consultant, what if he /she is? Mr jurno has contacted countless numbers of readers, and expressed his opinion, some will have thought he's a pratt, some fence sitters may well have been convinced by his argument, others will already agree. So far a couple of people have come up with sensible suggestions, and F3G has given a clear, consise praeces of the action required, and pointed out simply that the jurno here has stolen a 'country mile' on the aviation community with his article. Well you can whinge on a bulletin board all you like, but it won't help your cause, or improve the publics perception of GA one little bit.
Imagine how effective GA would look at a planning hearing, when asked, what have you done for the environment/community to persuade us to approve your proposed development?. To respond with 'Well I copy pasted someones post on a bulletin board, and called him a management consultant!'

And, maxflyer, where will your argument get GA?. How would you propose people cut their grass/hedges? Most of the neighbours I have lived next to in the past 25 years have used ELECTRIC lawnmowers/trimmers. How much noise do they really make?, done any noise measurements?..thought not..... I can't recall any of the EHO's I ever dealt with telling me of problems with hedge/lawn cutting!. , Jurno's like the one in question can easily paint the picture of 'dawn to dusk hell under the flight path', for as long as they go unchallenged!. Most people can relate to a neighbour having to cut a hedge, but they ain't doing it every weekend dawn till dusk. Motorcycles can be noisy, bikers like myself (who have noisy, but legal bikes) are aware of the problems, however the few who don't give a shiney one, are giving the rest of us a bad name, and we will almost certainly face further legislation and restriction. So will you in the GA community do anything to improve your 'standing' in the comunity?, or continue to face the problems caused by councils like South Cambridgeshire was a few years back, over to you....

And just in case you're wondering c-bert, 24 years in aviation, 9 in airfield operations, including airfield and operations environmental management

[surely not]

Odd that he wants more commercial flying out of Shoreham, especially when one of the main Scheduled services is operated by the 'ultra quiet..............................not' Trislander or Islander!

They must be the noisiest aircraft in and out of Shoreham!!

[Final 3 Greens]

Mike

I reckon the danger is that if someone drip feeds enough material over a period of time, it becomes accepted unconsciously as de facto.

This happens insidiously over a period of time and attitudinal/behavioural change is the result. Look at the history of smoking over the past half century or so - I'm not arguing the facts of smoking, but more the way that social psychology techniques have been applied and the change in public perception that has resulted.

The danger to GA is that it is a visible target - people do notice aeroplanes .... and unconcious links to data (presented as facts) do their dirty work.

The problem then becomes political influence. Pressure groups develop disproportional influence with Politicians and before you know it, decisions are being taken based on minority views and majority apathy.

So there you go. Best wishes to all at Shoreham, the terminal being a lovely piece of living/working history IMHO, located in a beautiful part of the country.

c-bert

Did you read my profile or did you figure that one out yourself? :} ;)

[slim_slag]

The journo is correct. Light aircraft are often (the word he used) flown by pratts, and I've seen a few proving that just off the beach at Brighton.

[c-bert]

@Final 3 Greens

All on my tod I'm afraid - I get a shiver down my spine when someone mentions stakeholders. ;)

[Final 3 Greens]

c-bert

So do I - probably because my day job involves handling a lot of them ;)

[Sensible]

Is this our revered Adam we are speaking of here? Adam has always been a much respected and controversial figure in Brighton who has for many years been an avid cyclist having used his trusty bike as company transport. He can often be seen peddling around the city on his bike.

Read this:

http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/news/2004/07july/040721free.shtml
and this;
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/news/2004/07july/040716adam.shtml

[surely not]

GA in this country isn't helped by the attitude towards noise reduction from the CAA. I read an article in a GA magazine about the massive amount of work done to get some German made silencers certificated by the CAA, and the very positive difference it has made to operations out of White Waltham (I think?).

I believe I am still correct in thinking that a/c modified to meet the stricter German noise regs, have to be made 'full' noise again if imported to the UK. Now that is surely a complete nonsense and plays into the noise lobbyists hands.

On another thread, that is now being artificially allowed to drift into obscurity, there is mention that the training fleet at Shoreham is to all intents and purposes all Cessna and Piper designs with old technology engines. The new training designs with quieter engines have not made an appearance with the flight schools. If noise is going to become an issue then this failure to either re-equip with modern aircraft or modify older aircraft with silencers is going to bite the operators on their backsides.

How the journo can complain against the MD900 used by the police unit is a mystery to me as it is an amazingly quiet machine.

For a short while I was involved with the County Council at Chichester and it was clear that whenever aviation issues were discussed the vast majority of councillors, of all parties, were unaware of the advances made in the industry to become more user friendly. It wasn't lack of interest because they were happy to chat with me to find out more info when I challenged old misconceptions, just that their day to day life doesn't include general aviation. Very few realised the variety of businesses at Shoreham, and the colleges etc that are also based at the airport.

F3G is correct when he says that the community has to band together to involve and educate the local populace, and in particular the influencers. A local press that is onside is a very valuable asset.

[MLS-12D]

Next we'll be told that, "going forward", we should "think outside the box" ("pluralistically", of course :hmm: ) about how we can "interface" with the "stakeholders" so as to "accomodate their concerns" and "bring them along". Obviously, a "competitive analysis" would should us how to "create value" and "empower" the "stakeholders" in an manner consistent with our "core mandate". :rolleyes:

Meaningless jargon. Why not just say that small aerodromes should:

(1) host an annual visitors' day at which neighbours and members of the press can be entertained and provided with short joy rides at little or no cost;

(2) endeavour to minimize noise disputes by (i) creating a community liason committee to receive and respond to complaints; and (ii) posting maps showing sensitive areas and detailing recommended procedures to avoid them.

[surely not]

MLS-12D your first point is simply too little effort. If you want your airport/field to be an accepted part of the local community then you need the local community to feel that they can drop by at any time, and then they can see the real work that goes on at an airport like Shoreham.
Shoreham is fortunate in having two good public restaurants, plus it hosts music evenings and other events which are advertised locally. The Conference facilities are open for use by local businesses as well as on airport businesses.
That won't stop individuals expressing views such as the journo, but it will reduce the liklihood of people falling for the untruths.

As for point 2, isn't this fairly standard at airports? However wouldn't reducing the noise also be a good idea, especially when it is technically possible?

[skydriller]

Management consultants......Yeah.....then we could reach meaningfull Synergy......:rolleyes:

[rustle]

Management speak or otherwise I think you guys criticising F3G are aiming at the wrong target.

Remember: This thread was started because some wazzock journo wrote some crap -- not because management consulting affects flying out of Shoreham ;)

[MLS-12D]

Yes, fair enough. We only waste time by sniping at ourselves. But I just couldn't resist responding to his suggestion that the journalist was somehow in the right and aviation in the wrong (and the pretentious buzz words didn't help).

[surely not]

Spot on Rustle :ok:

Having watched Shoreham Airport grow and update its facilities over the last 20 years, it is a shame that the training fleets haven't also moved with the times. I guess that the way in which the CAA PPL training was allowed to be exported by the UK authorities hasn't helped, but for no modern types to be in service is a sad indictement.

[Final 3 Greens]

For those who seem to be the self appointed "pretentious buzz word" police, please note the following definitions from the Oxford Dictionary:

Pluralistic: The adjective relating to forms of society embracing many minority groups and cultural traditions

Theorising: evolve theories

Analysis: detailed examination of elements of a structure

Strategy: long term plan or policy

Leverage: power to accomplish a purpose

Now I've always though that one of the better aspects of the English language was the provision of precise terms that avoid having to use mouthfuls of words to make a clear point.

As to MLS-12D's comments about my apparent suggestion that the journalist was in the right and GA in the wrong, I must confess to be somewhat surprised that a lawyer should make such a simplistic statement, since it is fairly clear that we live in a pluralistic society (refer to definition above) and consquently are affected by the many "rights and wrongs" perceived by different groups.

In fact I said So far, the journo seems to understand this concept about a thousand times better than most of the posters here. He is not a prat, but a skilled player at his game. I see no inference of right or wrong in this statement, but rather a clear acknowledgement that a potentially dangerous opponent is active.

In fact, the only word I used in my post that could possibly be interpreted as a buzz word is "stakeholder" and that is more due to the bias that some people are expressing against consultants, than to the fact, which is that this word is accepted globally, in many walks of life, as describing those individuals or groups affected by any particular issue.

Furthermore, the very person complaining most vocally about pretentious buzz words was the perpetrator of wasting PPrune bandwith by listing a load of meaningless junk.

So, I am moved towards Slim Slag's conclusion, although my evidence is provided by evidence from a different observation.

Maybe the reporter has a point - some GA pilots do behave like pratts and as Mrs Gump says "stupid is as stupid does."

[Rood]

I think this journos actually just doing his part of the propaganda to get acceptance that Shoreham should become Brighton City Airport and kick the people that use it out like at the other commercial airports.

I wouldn`t get hung up that is anything else.

Sadly vanity and egos are at play with Shorehams future not common sense.

It would be nice to think that democratic oversight could control it but I`ve heard that important announcements like new runways aren`t always even mentioned to the airport committee.....

[High Wing Drifter]

I don't really see strategic master plan in that journo's comment, just a red blooded rant. Just my humble reading of the situation.

I liked Surely Not's comment. I think the lack of momentum by the fuddies in the CAA towards silencing our very noisy a/c is pretty serious, but I can see where the problem stems (CoG, performance table adjustments, test flights,...). Sure it would cost us a few grand (a guess!) to install one of these devices but the difference it will make to GA would be worth it. Thinking aloud: Maybe, the CAA is protecting us by knowing full well that introducing such things would effective ground many makes for years or maybe forever.

Anybody know how noisy the new diesels are?

OK, thinking laterally here (a possible euphemism for a very stupid idea): But how impossible would it be to route the exhaust (and the noise) sideways rather than down?

FWIW, the impending Eurocharges maybe a good thing inasmuch that once we are paying our way, so to speak, flying a private a/c won't be seen so much as a privilege but a right by virtue of the dues paid. Hopefully, then it would be much more difficult for other parties to undermine GA to the extent to which it has been or is being.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rood

I think you make an important observation here.

There are many vested interests in life. If one vested interest is converting the airport from GA to commercial pax/cargo traffic, who are the stakeholders who wish to do this? (I realise that there are commercial GA operations, so I'm thinking airline type ops in using these words.)

Why would the journo, apparently, support their argument?

If you read the other post about the closure of 09/27 at Leeds, the symptoms of a pro commercial lobby can be seen there too, according to the poster.

I don't know if those with the vested interests are anti GA by philosophy or whether it's a case of accidental adversaries, but their actions certainly impact the GA community in an often negative way.

However, there are counter tactics. For example, identifying the stakeholders and then asking them to deny a terrible thing in public, e.g. "will you confirm that you do not intend to open Shoreham up as an H24x7 operation, with loads of night flights." There is a saying that one should suspect "he who denieth too strongly." It doesn't matter if the quesiton reflects their intentions, since you are not saying that they are intending to do it, just asking for asking for assurance and then you can turn the argument into why should we believe the assurance? Mischief making such as this can swing opinions too.

The example of Noam Chomsky stating words to the effect that "On balance, I believe that the holocaust did happen", opened up a whole new debate about the evidence, which had been accepted without argument until that point.

The secret is to find the aspect that the majority of the stakeholders will unite to regard as a common enemy.

It's a good thing that no one has yet come up with a "flying toffs" argument, that justifies taxing us heavily, since I believe that this would be relatively easy to sell to the great unwashed, playing strongly on the schadenfreude principle.

[formationfoto]

F3G
Is this guy indeed demonstrating a high degree of skill or just acting in ignorance?.

Can the locals shake the ignorance of a 60 year old journo who MAYBE has become somewhat set in his ways?.

I don't know so I won't judge but I wish I could be as confident as you that this attitude could be changed by the sort of actions you propose.

There is certainly sage advice in 'know your enemy' though and responding without understanding the right buttons to press is usually a bad idea.

[Final 3 Greens]

FF

Perhaps the question should be "is he acting from personal prejudice or being steered?"

I am far from certain that his opinions could be altered, after all I do not know him and certainly don't wish to pass judgement on him - the article he wrote seemed to me to be controversial, buit arguable. He may be set in his ways or not.

In any event, I was suggesting making like uncomfortable for any vested interests looking to convert the airfield status, rather than the journalist.

[tmmorris]

Sadly F3G the 'flying toffs' argument is all too easy for the local journo. I remember a 'debate' in the local press about the 'rich toffs from Oxford University who play around at being pilots at weekends' disturbing the peace... that was a description of Oxford UAS at Benson! How the hell they think we are going to recruit and train intelligent RAF pilots without occasionally allowing them to fly aircraft is beyond me.

Tim
(used to being described as 'one of those hunting toffs', so I should know)

[edited for spelling!]

[MLS-12D]

the article he wrote seemed to me to be controversial, but arguableI don't believe any sweeping generalizations are arguable, in any context; and the suggestion that light aircraft as "often flown by prats" was just stupid, spiteful, and indefensible.

As to MLS-12D's comments about my apparent suggestion that the journalist was in the right and GA in the wrongI agree that your post did not expressly say that GA might be in the wrong; but all this hand-wringing about what might be done to apease his petty carping necessarily implies that he may well have a valid point.

IMHO, the "journalist" was not supporting any particular point of view, or representing any "stakeholders". If that was his intention, he would have made reasoned arguments, based upon objective facts. All he was trying to do was to be controversial, which apparently sells newspapers. The best thing to do is to have a private knashing of teeth about his silliness, and then ignore it. Next week he will have moved on to making some equally banal remark about unwed mothers, banking executives, or some other group.

[Rood]

I think you`ll find the timing of this article is perhaps not entirely coincidental.

This week Worthing and Brighton Councils are considering the future of the airport.

Word Report on Shoreham Airport (http://peace.brighton-hove.gov.uk/intranet/CommitteeMgt.NSF/0/69C84C191922009B80256F07004E5F79/$File/Item+62+-+Shoreham+Airport+report.doc)

Agenda (http://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/site01.cfm?request=c1107341&action=committee&comm_view=detail&name=Policy%20%26%20Resources%20Committee)

Seems to explain things.

Interesting part of the document is that these consultants only asked other airports if they were interested not low cost airlines who you`d expect to be keen. a la Thomson at Coventry

Smells fishy to me and its not just because I live near the sea

[Final 3 Greens]

Nice one Rood :ok:

[six-sixty]

This might seem off-topic but stay with it. Every year for 25 years, the local ATC squadron would host a Fly-in at a small private airstrip near Royston. They had a caravan with a control tower & radio, and the cadets would spend weeks learning such things as aerodrome/circuit procedures, marshalling etc, then set up camp for the weekend. Aircraft would come from all over, have a burger and a chat and the cadets loved it. I know this because used to be one of them, and being around real aeroplanes, with all the sounds and smells was completely enthralling.

This year, which was to be the events 25th aniversary, someone who owns an aircraft there started mouthing off about "insurance" and "liability" and whipped up a storm in a teacup that had the presumably desired result of scaring the bigwigs at cadet HQ off and the event was cancelled.

Result? Apart from a lot of disappointed cadets, are they/their parents now more or less likely to think of private pilots as a bunch of rich elitist selfish t**sers?

Nice one, whoever you are, Very Well Done. Though you can rest easy that no nasty little oik is going to spill ketchup on your shiny aeroplane, you've now created possibly 100 or more budding Anti's, and advanced my maybe a millimeter the mighty juggernaut that will one day mean none of us can fly at all.

Why bother worrying about hostile Journos when we've got idiots like this scoring own goals amongst us?

[formationfoto]

six sixty

I used ot be one of those visiting in Tiger Moth or Chipmunk. Used to be a fun little event and got used to having bats waved at me to make a sharp turn in the Tiger (no breaks and no steering!). All the same enjoyed going each year.

Great shame that suddenly it is unsafe and cadets and aircraft are likely to be engaged in some sort of massive incident.