NATS Forum ???

[PPRuNe Radar]

It's been suggested in the past with only a little interest, now it's being suggested again.

Please e-mail me or leave a message here if you have interest in a NATS Forum being set up. If there is enough interest I will speak with the Big Boss to see what can be done.

I have no intention of the NATS Forum diluting the open ATC Forum nor the issues it raises, many outside the ATC industry find it very useful and enlightening. Rather it could be used to discuss NATS issues which are perhaps a little too sensitive or controversial for the open Forum. Any closed Forum should not be seen by some as an opportunity for them to name names or launch attacks on individuals in the organisation. The standard PPRuNe rules will still apply.

Thoughts and expressions of interest are welcome.

[Steep Approach]

I'll second that suggestion.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Seems like a good idea to me.

[YoungAndyMac]

Count me in!

[Flight Plan Fixer]

What a great idea!
Just the sort of thing we need at work and haven't got. There are so many issues we all need to share - but not necessarily with the outside world...

[chiglet]

Like it :D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Asda]

I would like the ability to talk about things in a bit more depth without the thought of journalists etc. being able to take me out of context. I'd still need to watch the non NATS atc forum to discuss with pilots, wannabes and other non NATS atcos, but I'm sure I can manage that.

[AyrTC]

Yeah go for it there are a lot of "in house" issues going to be cropping up which may need
sensitive handling. :rolleyes:

AyrTC

[bagpuss lives]

I'm all for it BUT......

Firstly, from personal experience NATS management are very very very keen to discover just who posts what on here (hence the Most Wanted bit in my signature!!!!!).

Who is going to have control over access, how will it be done and will that person be prepared to take the sh** if it comes their way from management? If someone posts something contraversial will this person be prepared to risk all and be trustworthy enough not to pass on details - even if it meant their job was even more at risk than it is now?

Obviously this would require someone with access to staff number lists etc etc and we'd need to trust this person implicitly.

On the other hand certain managers (a couple at my unit thankfully) fully embrace PPRuNE, respect the wishes of it's users and actually take on board or respnd to what is said here.

Just a few thoughts :D

If - and only if these security related issues can be resolved I think the NATS forum is a wonderful idea :)

Also - Radar - please could you consider me as a moderator - I have a lot of time, patience and heaps of Net experience and have always been well behaved - on PPRuNE at least ;)

Add whats' more I've met the big man himself so he can vouch for my not-so-charming ATC type banter :p

So if it all comes off - any chances? My name is firmly in the hat :)

<Edited for dreadful spelling! - AGAIN!!!>

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: niteflite01 ]

[TC_LTN]

I think I would be far more active in a 'private' forum.

[j17]

If airline companies can have their own private forums why cant we? All in favour

[gul dukat]

Yep !! count me in !! We were discussing this very idea this afternoon .

[terrain safe]

Worth a try.........

[PPRuNe Radar]

Niteflight01

NATS Management may be keen to find out who posts what, but to my knowledge PPRuNe has never been asked (at least for quite a few years) for this information. In any case, Danny is adamant that such information would only be disclosed if legally forced to do so and then probably only to the extent of providing a contributors ISP or the IP used to make a particular post. Unless you use an obvious e-mail address with your name in it, or you make it known to people what your address is, then there is little chance of anyone here at PPRuNe actually knowing who you are when you register.

Access will be controlled as it is for the airline Forums. Individuals submit their details to the private Forum admin staff who can then check whether they are bona fide NATS employees. These details will NOT include their PPRuNe ID. We do not need to know this and it is in fact better that we do not since we cannot then disclose what we do not know. Once their credentials are confirmed, access will be granted by providing them with the Forum password. They will then be able to enter the Forum. It will be important that the password is not made known to other individuals, be they NATS staff or not, otherwise before we know it it will be common knowledge and anyone will then be able to enter and read or post on the private area. Please note that all NATS staff will be entitled to enter this area, provided they go through the process and meet the criteria.

Your offer as moderator is appreciated and I will bear it in mind if the Forum gets take off clearance.

[Scott Voigt]

Never think that your posts are safe even in a private area from management. We have found our private stuff in managements hands many times...

regards

[Bev Bevan]

I don't think we are that worried about management seeing the posts... it's management *knowing* who posted what that is of concern.
After PPrune Radar's last post, I'm happy to be counted in.

[U R NumberOne]

Something that we talked about a while ago - I'm all for it. Alpha16 and other wannabes don't have to worry, I'm certain any issues NATS staff feel could be useful to you will find their way into ATC Issues anyway - but I'm sure you agree there will be some subjects that are best discussed on a company level only.

One question though - will Aberdeen PPRuNers be allowed to take over threads in the private forum. After all, we've been very well behaved lately... :D

[bagpuss lives]

Thanks for the reply Radar :)

My own near "outing" of my PPRuNe ID was certainly not attributable to Danny or Admin in any way shape or form - and I hope I didn't imply that when I made my original post.

I know the stirling work you, Danny and the rest of the Admin team do.

Thanks for considering me as a moderator and I would also like to offfer my services as group Admin (confirming credentials etc) since I'm in such a cheeky mood :p

Here's hoping the man from PPRuNe he say yes!!

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: niteflite01 ]

[bluue]

Great idea

[ayrprox]

Great idea.
pilots are able to discuss things without having to worry too much about who's reading in their forums, and like you said the ATC bulletin board will still be available

[Spoonbill]

NATS atco's operational problems, gripes and and other such mumbles are often, believe or not, duplicated at non - NATS units.
If there were to be two ATC forums, I very much doubt that the (often perfectly valid) issues raise by NATS staff would be duplicated outside their own forum, and consequently the outside perspective, which often livens things up, will not be there.

[Mr Chips]

I'm all for it - I suggested it last time!

[Legs11]

Spoonbill, you just beat me to it.

I think a NATS forum would seriously devalue the ATC forum.

Many NATS issues are the same for the rest of us, and lets face it, once you have your own forum, there will be less said on this one.

Next thing we'll get is GISAJOB asking for one!

[Smoke me a kipper]

I think it's a good idea!

Hope I'll be able to join you all in it in a few months time!!

[Cuddles]

Sounds good to me

URno1, I second that sentiment, come on Odi, Conc, buzz, datadad et al, let's get in on this one

[Push Approved]

Great Idea!!

:rolleyes:

[ZIP250]

I'm in

Z :) :) :) :)

[callyoushortly]

Why not??

[Scott Voigt]

Well, if NATS goes private, (forum that is) I for one will miss out since I won't be able to see what is happening to them... I enjoy reading on how the controllers are feeling about the "new" management company.

regards

[BEXIL160]

Not exactly gung ho about a private NATS forum.

Two reasons.

One, it might dilute the ATC Issues forum and NATS issues are often applicable to non-NATS units anyway.

Two, NATS would have the opportunity to hide it's dirty washing. As least at the moment it's problems and that of its staff are open to public scrutiny. A good thing surely for a company that claims to be "Open and Honest".

That's my 2p's worth

Rgds BEX

[Great Unmanaged]

It would be an excellent way for NATS management to find out who we all are. The

AG read this forum, how would they know whats really going on if we have our own secret forum?

Just a thought. The basic idea is good tho. Maybe the NATS only forum could just be used for sensitive issues parts of which could be echoed here?

[250 kts]

I think I prefer to keep things as they are at present. TT can be a bit of a t****r at times but at least we're all aware of him. But could we please consider a separate column for the ATC Wannabees?

[bill]

no thanks!

firstly by going private we lose the input of people like Scott Voight, amongst others, who often can provide a non-NATS angle to a discussion,

secondly, as others have stated already in this thread many of the NATS threads are often of genuine interest to those employed elsewhere and, if NATS moved to a private forum "ATC Issues" would simply become an empty shell.

Thirdly, when this issue last raised its head (about a year ago?), I also posted against it and despite Pprune Radars assurance that there is no link between gaining membership to the forum and your username, there will be a list of members which potentially could be used against us if management obtained it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally, as I stated last time, the only time I've ever contacted another "ppruner" and used my real name I was subsequently approached by that person who had tracked me down by accessing records that NATS holds on me as one of its employees.

Can I trust a moderator or NATS forum administrator not to do the same?

Once bitten, twice shy...

[Llamapoo]

I think in principle the idea of a 'NATS-only' forum is good and I would like to be part of it if it happens. However, I would miss the different perspectives brought to the threads by non-NATS people, so probably wouldn't vote for it for that reason (if any vote was held).

[Numpo-Nigit]

Put me down as "against".

If it happens I'll join just to read what's going on there, but, if I have something to say, I'll only post on the open ATC Forum.

My reasons? Already been covered by the likes of 250kts and Bexil (and others).

NN

[Dan Dare]

DEFINATELY AGAINST!!!

Agree with most of the negatives so far, but ATC forum is small enough to need no diluting! There are already too many forums (fora?) on PPRuNe and each split limits the number of readers and therefore the number of sensible replies. ATC issues are global and affect each aviation user.

[Gimpus Major]

**********************
100% in favour.
**********************

I've noticed too many times on this forum when someone starts talking about any other ATC provider, they often get the reply "Not on here; I'll email you."
That can be viewed 2 ways; either the person is maintaining confidentiality OR they simply prefer not to post in public.
It's cheeky then to say on this thread that NATS issues are often common to all ATC providers, and that therefore any comments made should remain in the public domain.
After lurking on here for a few months, there are alot of issues which I would have liked contributing to, but which I have considered non-NATS staff have had no right of access to; therefore, I have missed out in contributing to many discussions.
Similarly, I have often felt that threads created for a NATS issue have often been hijacked by a minority who have little input other than to antagonise people who are trying to have a genuine constructive debate.
It has already been mentioned that a NATS forum would in no way dilute the general ATC area. Look at Rumours and News; I am sure that there has been negligible dilution of the quality or quantity of threads as private airline-specific forums have been created.
The same would happen with a private NATS board.
There are issues which should remain out of the public eye.
A private forum would give us an excellent facility for us to discuss the many very important issues affecting us at the moment.
Personally, I couldn't care a flying fig if NATS management did subscribe to such a private forum; afterall, most of them seem to gauage the mood of the staff from the comments made on here anyway !!
So, Mr Moderator, yes please to a NATS forum, and to those non-NATS people who oppose it, remember those names who have for so long spoiled the serious discussions on here with their infantile, churlish contributions.
Regards
Gimpus

[surface wind]

asap :D

[Gonzo]

I'm with Numpo on this one.

If it goes ahead, then I'll certainly read it, but here's where I'll do my posting.

Gonzo.

[Ringa-Bel?]

I'm in favour...............and if it dilutes the ATC forum too much then you can always revert to how it is now :)

[PPRuNe Radar]

Thanks for the posts and the e-mails. I'll give everyone a few more days to pitch in and then try to make sense of all that has been said. As well as trying to think of the right answers to the issues raised.

Call you back !!

[Morelands]

Before any final decision is taken on a private NATS forum, could I just point out that drawing comparisons, as many have done, with the individual airlines' private forums is not altogether appropriate. Individual airlines forums are, at a guess, confined to substantially less than 10% of the total aviation community who subscribe to PPrune.

Setting up a NATS-only forum would restrict it to something like 70%+ of the UK ATC community - which I suggest could be unhealthy for open debate and exchange of views on issues which could affect all our livelihoods - notwithstanding the assurances given by many regular PPrune posters that they would continue to post here as well as on a NATS-only forum.

For what it is worth, my view is that ATC is better off with just the one forum, and this is it. So, please, no NATS-only forum.

[Steep Approach]

Obviously the best place for a NATS only private forum with the ability to post anonymously would be on the NATS intranet itself, that way, ALL staff could contribute. (there are many people in NATS (including controllers) who haven't even heard of PPRUNE!

Somehow though I don't see that happening :rolleyes:

[Father Dougal]

Against!

In principle, the idea is tempting but I believe we all need the perspective gained by having contributors from all walks!!!!

Nice idea but no thanks. :)

[160to4DME]

Some very valid arguments for each side here.

Personally, I would like a private forum for sensitive issues; whilst the NATS intranet is there, it's not available to all nor does it provide anonymity.

And I promise to keep posting on the public boards !! :D

[AyrTC]

Actually I have had a rethink and although I would generally trust the PPRunE moderatorsI think a NATS only forum would make it easier for NATS management to "identify" possible postee's(!).
How many times have you been told a rumour in the Ops Room with the words Don't tell anyone but..... and by the time you get to the rest room/canteen it's been spread all over the unit :eek: .
With the current climate of touchy/feely management or should that be touchy/kicky at LATCC ,I think NATS staff should endevour to remain as anonymous as possible.So after some consideration I am against a NATS forum.

If people are getting annoyed with some of the stupid postings that apprent ar$"hole's publish let's just agree here and now to ignore them.NATS/NonNATS you know who they are. :D

AyrTC.

[shack]

What would happen to retired ex-NATS ATCO's like me if we could not get our daily fix of the current troubles? You have no idea of the sense of disbelief that one has when one reads of such and such Director of !!! or Senior Executive !!! said ******** and your mind switches to that person when he was a young ex-Cadet who had just had an airmiss and could not get away from the headset world quickly enough. If he reads this he will know who I mean.

[Douglas Spragg]

I agree with Shack, us ex NATS ATCOs still follow with interest these Fora and particularly the ATC Issues. I think that sometimes a bit of historical info can be useful, not forgetting outside opinion.

[Arkady]

I'm all for a NATS forum and I see no real reason why it should dilute the value of the ATC forum. Any in-house forum is likely to be rumours and news relevent only to those with access. ATC issues would still be posted on the wider ATC forum unless they were of a very unit specific nature. If a thread on the NATS forum was taking on a wider implication I'm sure somebody would suggest that a posting onto the ATC forum would be more appropriate.
I don't know how the Airline forums work for ex-employees, but I see no reason why retired NATS employees shouldn't continue to have access.

[BuzzLightyear]

Count me in.

I have read the concerns of those who are afraid that they will be hung out to dry over posts, and I understand those concerns, but surely the private airline forums would have suffered from this, and it would have been publicised if action had been taken over items posted in those forums.

I also understand the fear that this forum will be diluted by the absence of NATS ATCOs. After the number of moans about the topics that we have brought up recently from non- NATS ATCOs, I'm surprised that you are not jumping with joy at the prospect of losing our moans and winges to our own forum. :D :D :D

[Co ordination unaffected]

I think it's a good idea, as long as it is inaccessible to those non operational members of staff who may have ulterior motives. (i.e. as long as it's a 1 kemble street free atcos and atsas whinge forum)

:D

[PPRuNe Radar]

Well, some interesting comments, all of which are very useful to us here at the Towers.

It is of course not a straight case of a vote (2 to 1 in favour), at the end of the day we need to ensure that the needs of the members of PPRuNe are satisfied. My own gut feeling is that a private Forum IS desirable as long as we use it for the discussion of internal issues or those which are sensitive. I, like a few others, do find it wearing when people outside NATS hijack threads with their own views on something that is actually of no relevance to them. It is also sometimes a little uncomfortable when people post information that is actually something which under the Staff Manual could actually get them sacked. On the other hand, people like Scott certainly do have something to contribute to the wider ATC profession debates which is very worthwhile and interesting. As a host socially, and promoter of ATC to the world, I can personally vouch that Scott is second to none ;) My hope would be that the participants in any private NATS Forum could help identify topics which are of wider interest to the outside world and so save any dilution.

So, onto a summary of the pros and cons……………….

PROS

Issues can be aired which should not be shared or are sensitive.
Chance to talk about things in depth without being taken out of context.
Some management may embrace the issues raised and respond.
Some members would be more active in a private Forum.
Removal of the hijacking of threads by those who actually have no interest in constructive debate.
Provides an anonymous outlet for NATS staff to express their opinions.
Airline private Forums work well and do not dilute the main public Forums.


CONS

Wannabes, retired NATS staff and other ATC staff may be excluded from NATS issues.
Management would attempt to discover posters identity.
Information from private areas may still appear in the public domain if there are unscrupulous members.
Existing ATC Forum would be diluted and devalued.
NATS can hide it's dirty washing.
Outside views would be excluded.
NATS internal communication already exists. (Yes, I too choked when I read this one !!!)


On balance, my own view is that with the current climate and issues facing NATS, we do have a lot of things to discuss which are not for general consumption. I am sorry if non NATS people feel excluded by that and of course there will never be a right or wrong answer to this, but some of the posts on here could be interpreted as in breach of the NATS Staff Manual in terms of confidentiality. Security and anonymity is of course a big issue, but we should look here to the experience of the airline Forums, some of whose managers would dearly love to find out who the posters are. To Danny's credit, they never ever ever find out, unless people tell others about their access rights, posting names, etc. That guarantee would of course continue in the ATC Forum. Whilst the final details still need to be sorted out if a private Forum goes ahead, the basic premise is that applicants for the Forum would not provide any linkage between their real names and their PPRuNe nicknames. All we would know is who has applied for access, we would have no way of knowing whether they ever visit, whether they lurk, or whether they even post. The important factor here would be for people NOT to give out Forum access details to their friends, colleagues, or managers. If they have right of access then they can apply themselves ;)

Anyhow, a final decision is awaited from the Towers. If they do give the go ahead, then we can perhaps trial things for a month and then take stock of how it has operated both for the private and public ATC Forums. I'll be in touch.

[Scott Voigt]

Well if they do go ahead with a private forum, I for one will miss some of the intersting post. Some of which have a definate cause and effect on what we are trying to accomplish here in the states.

regards

[Undercover]

I wouldn't want to be left out - so if it goes ahead then fine... but I think NATS suffers from being too insular already - I'd far rather hear the views of the 'real world' included. More people to wind up too!! ;)

[TrafficTraffic]

Interesting point of view Undercover. If I suggest that the number of posts that I observe appear to be insular already, please dont take that as an insult. It is probably good that NATS staff can logon to PPRUNE and see what their colleagues are doing/thinking, (dont you guys ever talk at work - or are the consoles bugged?). Should you be granted the promised land - congrats, but as Scott said above not only will you lose input from outside, (OK you may not want my input but at least I give you lot a common enemy and you guys stop hating management for a few minutes) and you can never assume that somebody outside of NATS doesnt have a good idea or hasnt been there before.

It's neither here nor there for me, I can still come to ATC issues and lay the boot in here, I mean there is so much to play with and we are learning all the time...for instance do you guys know some aircraft after faster than others, and parallel means NOT converging?

[ 05 November 2001: Message edited by: TrafficTraffic ]