effect of foreign pilots on the jobmarket?

[fly-half]

I'm one of many pilots with a frozen ATPL seeking their first flying job in the UK. To get some great experience and gain a 'foot in the door', I've been working in Ops for for the past six months for an airline based at LGW. This is my very first job in aviation and one of the things that has surprised me is the amount of pilots from other countries there are flying for UK airlines.

I regularly hear transmissions from UK airlines on the LGW Servisair frequency from pilots with foreign accents. More commonly, these come from easyJet, Flybe and less, but still regularly, from airlines such as Thomas Cook, MyTravel, Britannia and Excel. I do not listen to BA as they are not on the same freqency. The airline itself that I work for has a large proportion of Danish and Scandinavian pilots.

As this was something I hadn't appreciated before I was wanting to know if this has always been the case or is it a relatively new situation? Have the airlines that have been expanding with new aircraft on order (easyJet/Flybe) got a higher proportion of foreign pilots than the rest because they found difficult to recruit suitably qualified pilots from the UK? Is this a positive or negative effect on these airlines?

As someone seeking flying work, it is worrying to me to think that I need to compete with not only my fellow countrymen but also with foreign pilots, alhough I am not blowing this out of proportion. I am aware that this industry is certainly not the only one to be affected in this way.

Perhaps others would like to add their comments on this. Do other people in my situation think about this as well?

I hope I won't be jumped on by the PC Brigade.

[salapilot]

I think your post fly-half was fair and I hope it won't be hijacked by the PC Brigade !

I was born here my parents however, do come from abroad. Whilst I have every sympathy with foreign Pilots looking for work and getting it, I am aware that a number do eventually return to their original countries. I recently spoke to an Aussie Capt who said his plans would be to return home, in Oz, to be with his family. As far as airlines go, I do believe at times their long term view on recruitment is somewhat blinkered. Surely it would be more sensible to recruit knowing that your prospective employee would more than likely stay, as opposed to foreign Pilots building up experience and moving back to their native countries?

I strongly believe immigrants are good for this country, lets face it, my parents came over in the 60's and have made a positive contribution to this country . The point being they stayed and not just made a quick buck and return. Airlines do need to wake up and realise that recruitment is a long term issue. It’s not like where facing a shortage like the nursing sector. Just look at all the qualified wannabes desperate for jobs and a large number having a variety of experience......surely that counts for something ??

sp

[redsnail]

What's the difference between a local pilot moving on to a different job in 3-5 years time than a foreign born pilot moving back home in 3-5 years time?
It's still the same training cost to the company concerned.
Do you intend to stay in the same job for 20-30 years?

[Ex Oggie]

Reddo, you've been taking those sensible pills again, haven't you :p

[salapilot]

Of course there is always going to be turnover, but the chances are the local Pilot is going to stay longer than the foreign one. Especially when you find the company of your choice, base, aircraft, etc etc

sp

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well I'm one of these evil foreign job thieves myself, and I would just like to point out that I have in the last few weeks had an early and unexpected promotion to command on my turboprop type, due to the fact that the British guy in the queue above me has just left the company after a <2 year period, to go fly for a low cost jet operator.

Personally I really like my job, as a turboprop captain I'm doing as well financially as a lot of my compatriots in the RHS of jets (thanks mostly to all you thousands of clueless muppets buying type ratings on 737s and undermining working conditions at big airlines), and I have no intention of moving on for a good long time.

I actually quite like it here, but unfortunately my (English) wife has spent a year or two back in New Zealand, and she's already determined that we'll be away back down under when the time comes to have kids, because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society, but it won't be for a few years yet :ok:

The funny thing is, that now they have a kiwi in the extended family, the mother- and father-in-law, the brother-in-law and his wife and kids, have all gained a few extra points in the NZ immigration computer system and they have all in the last few months put applications in to emigrate down under :p

Presumably at the time they emigrate, they'll end up stealing a kiwi computer-programmer, school-teacher and company-director's job from some more deserving person who's lived down under all their lives ... but that's the nature of modern life isn't it. It's a global market.

[salapilot]

You've kind of answered my point Luke, as I have no doubt you enjoy what you do, in the long term the Airline industry wont have gained from you, as your heart(or your wifes) is clealry in NZ.

I totally agree that it is a Global Market and nothing will change as this particular industry cannot (or will not) in terms of recruitment think past the next few years. Like I said I am totally for foreign workers to come over , as I strongly believe in a diverse and culturally mixed society, as it makes for a better world. However the influx is short lived and airlines then have to fork out for more training. Or as you put "muppets" are prepared to fork the money out themselves, which is another argument altogther.

sp

[flaps to 60]

there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society, but it won't be for a few years yet

Typical of the antipodean attitude. If life here is so bad then go home and give those

thousands of clueless muppets buying type ratings on 737s and undermining working conditions at big airlines

a chance of getting the position that you leave.

Since getting my job i to have heard the variety of foreign voices on British airlines including BA, VS and BMI and then wonder why my British mates can't get jobs and then have to go and become a "Clueless Muppet".

In my airline over 10% of the pilots are foreign mostly from down under and for some of them, their attitude stinks.

Luke

I would have no problem with any amount of foreign pilots working in this country if the playing fields were level. How many British pilots are working in Aus/NZ and i dont mean contract pilots as they are only there in the short term and usually move on. Go on how many British citizens are working for QF or even Virgin Blue?

It seems that every country except this one and perhaps Ireland protects its own with rules and regulations barring the dirty johnny foreigner.

You will see British airlines advertise in FI for flight crew, but to date i have yet to see LH, AZ, AF, KL, QF, NZ etc etc or any of the other national carriers advertise for pilots or cadets and allow the world to have a go. Sounds like protectionism to me.

Consider this....maybe wages would be higher for UK pilots if there weren't so many foreigners comming in with guess what ....Type Ratings and willing to work for...well anything.

And what is is that decrepit edifice to past and present BA pilots doing about it NOTHING! As long as the subs keep comming in why should they care where its comming from, at least the IPA did try to do something about it.

Im not racist just British and proud and it sickens me to the back teeth to see British airlines looking out for others before they look out for their own in the name of saving a bob or two.

Fly half

Sorry i didnt put this across as well as you but maybe i just said what you were thinking.

[scroggs]

Whatever your position on this argument, the legislation that not only allows but forces British companies to offer employment to foreign nationals from Europe and those from Commonwealth countries with direct British ancestry is a matter for Government, not the companies that have to abide by those rules. It is an issue that affects all employers in UK, with the sole (I believe) exception of the Armed Services - who have some pretty odd rules about accptable nationalities themselves.

You can of course lobby BALPA on the issue, but they are powerless to overturn legislation which is fundamental to the UK's membership of the EU - whether you like it or not!

Scroggs

[redsnail]

When I was working for various companies in Australia at least 10% of the workforce were foreign. Most of them were British.
I'm talking about the companies in the bush as well as the cities. Ranging from C207's to Dash 8's.
I also know of quite a few Brits in Qantas as well.
There were quite a few Brits in Ansett as well. (At least 10%!!)

Did they have the right to live and work in Australia? Yes.
Did they hold an Australian CPL/ATPL? Yes.
Did they have the minimum experience required for the job? Yes, all had more than the minimums.
Did they deserve the job? Yes.
End of argument really.

One Brit skipped the country back to UK after just getting a type rating (Bandeirante). He owed a bond and 2 weeks holiday. He resigned by fax. So, "ripping" off companies isn't solely an Antipodean trait. Perhaps he learnt it from us? Oh well.

Why do you think the "foreigners" are getting the work? Most of the time it's because they have the experience that is required by that company. If a Brit has the same experience, you'd better believe that the Brit will have probably an advantage but if you can't match the experience of the foreigners. Don't whinge about it, get the experience.

Ok, getting the experience? How? Do what we all have done. Find where the jobs are and get the jobs. If it means getting an instructor rating and doing that for a few years, do it. If it means lowering your sights and getting a turboprop job flying something basic, do it. If it means going to Africa or the Caribbean and flying there, do it.

This argument has been bandied around since pontious was a pilot. Just remember, if every British pilot came home from Australia, Hong Kong, the ME, do you honestly think you'd get a job then? No.

I left my home in Sydney to pursue this career. Drove to the other end of the country on a hope of a job. 5,000km away... Then shifted another 1,000km to get another job... then another 3,500km to get another... Then finally, 12,000miles to go through the hoops to get a JAR ATPL. That's an idea of the determination that the so called foreign pilots have when they decide to go to the UK.

Yes, it's frustrating. It's easy to blame others for not suceeding. You have to keep looking for the openings and being ready to take advantage of any opportunity. Good luck.

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs

You can of course lobby BALPA on the issue, but they are powerless to overturn legislation which is fundamental to the UK's membership of the EU - whether you like it or not!

I agree and because of the PC crowd and spineless government we have rules that are beyond liberal and very generous when it comes to looking after foreigners, but surely i pay my dues to Balpa to look after British Airline Pilots. Sruely there must be some sort of deal they can come up with to employ nationals first, even those willing to fund their ratings.

How is it that the number of foreign pilots in AF LH AZ etc etc are as good as zero and these airlines get away with it, flouting all EU rules.

Redsnail

I would like to see the number of British pilots in QF as i dont believe that it would number anything above 0.5% please prove me wrong.

I also seem to remember Ansett pilots going on strike in the late 80's and the mangement asking the world for crews and a/c. It would be interesting to see how many Brits they have employed on a permanent contract since.

And please, though you have been gracious in your lack of comment on living in this country, remind some of your fellow countrymen to show some respect to the indigenous population that have been good enough to offer them the job that their own country couldn't.

When it comes to the likes of EK and CX et al yes there are plenty of Brits, Kiwis and Aussies working for these organisations as the local population cannot supply enough pilots with this i have no problem.

As for FR again i cant complain as ther are plenty of British pilots working for them both here and in Ireland and its an Irish airline.

I hope Qantas doubles in size and needs all the Aussie pilots it can get. That should solve the unemployed pilot situation in this country.

[redsnail]

Flaps,
Why would I rubbish the UK? I like it. However, when we go to the local pub there's plenty of Englishmen who are quite happy to rubbish the UK.

When I was in Eastern (Qantaslink, BA Citiexpress is the equivalent), there were 10 British pilots, a Canuck, an American, a couple of Kiwis. Pilot population at the time was 120.

I know of several British pilots in QF, since I don't know them all, I can't give you an actual number.

In Ansett again I don't know the actual number. There were 800 pilots in Ansett. At the Perth base on the Bae 146 fleet, there were 40 pilots. 8 of them were British.

I am in the UK because my father was born in Scotland. Thus I am eligible for a British passport. My fiance is here because his grandparents were born in Scotland. He's here on a visa.
If you had an Australian parent/grandparents then you could get the passport too.

Ok, you don't want to. You don't want to shift countries to get experience. That's not my fault.
We both hold JAR ATPLS with a reasonable log book too. Note, we too get knocked back for jobs here. It's not all plain sailing for the foreigners.

The govt isn't going to change the immigration rules. Gee, they're letting more in from Europe.

How did that 90% get the jobs? In my last job, 90% of the employees were British.
One was from the ROI, one was Italian, one was from Kenya and I am from Australia. The rest are from Britain.

As I've said many times, it's a mongrel of an industry to get a start in. That's the same the world over.

[flaps to 60]

Redsnail

Please dont get me wrong im not having a go at you but a situation that has arisen through many different factors mainly due to airline greed and short sightedness.

The thing about Aussies and Kiwis is that many do come over here and rubbish our way of life yet benefit from all that it offers eg a job! Thats not to say that the Swiss, French, Belgian Scandinavians etc etc are any better.

The Global Market is a myth including the Job Market as each country is quite clever in producing rules and regulations to exclude the "outsiders". For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly. America is quite adept at protectionism yet preaches the free market......my arse. I would not stand a chance of getting a job with any US airline and that includes pre 9/11. Yet on more than one ocassion i have heard American accents on UK aircraft including Speedbirds.

Also please dont take my comments as being anti Aus/NZ its every nationality that comes over where i wouldn't have a fighting chance of getting a job in their country of origin.

It's simple the whole world is welcome here providing I get the same welcome and opportunities over there, but this is not always the case.

PS. Those English who rubbish this great country in your local can't truly call themselves English despite that great British ability to laugh at ourselves.

[fly-half]

Hmmm, I wasn't expecting to hear about OZ and NZ pilots working in the UK. I have only now been thinking about this and feel that there is a difference between those people and the pilots I was considering from other countries in Eurpoe. I think that pilots who have come from OZ, NZ and even North America will be more committed to settling down here in the UK. They have no other choice really. They've moved half way around the World for work and are unlikely to move back for a while because it takes a lot more effort. As such, I don't really have a problem with our airlines taking a number of them on.

On the other hand, pilots from other countries in Europe can easily move back to their homelands. SALAPILOT mentioned some good points about airline recruitment and I agree that airlines should look at the longer term when they recruit. Of course they are businesses at the end of the day but I would have thought loyalty from the crews would be a benefit. The airlines that are expanding so quickly just want their qualified pilots with type-ratings. Doesn't it affect CRM when pilots from different nationalities fly together? Different cultures, different senses of humour/lack of humour? Now that's opening up a completely different can of worms!

In the airline I work for, many of our Scandinavian pilots spend their days off at home in their own countries. This has created a problem for crewing when they would like to offer day-off payements when we are desperately trying to find crew. The pilots who are regularly abroad are totally unavailable. Not the fault fo the pilots, more the fault of the airline for not having enough crew, but it's still an example I can think of. Also, these pilots get frustrated when they have to remain contactable on their standby's but are then stood down. They could have been in their own countries where their friends and families are. "Can't wait to move back home".

[haughtney1]

Just to qualify what im about to say.....I am about as PC as Tony Blair is Honest.........

As a kiwi living in the UK....(and as of last wednesday a naturalised Brit) I have to take up a little of what flap60 has said and disagree with it. (oh and flaps 60 I read lots of your posts and 99 times out of a hundred I agree with you)

I myself having had several false starts to my career moved to the UK did the JAR conversion..then promptly landed a job, very lucky....and dont I know it. At no time however did I think that the UK was nirvana in respect of lifestyle, quality of life, and least of all weather! However I think I am worldly enough, and god forbid intelligent (ok so I can fly..but I can also spell..almost!) enough to understand the dynamics of this great business called aviation.
Sky toddler.. you are right...muppets with too much money, or access to money, or worse attitude and money are the REAL ruination of this industry..that goes for Brits..Ozzies..Kiwis..Europeans..the Irish..and anyone else ive not mentioned. The facts are Flaps60 that most of the people who actually go to the trouble of emmigrating....intergrating into a different society...imposing huge(1NZ dollar=.37pence)financial burdens on themselves just to get a basic qualification are the very people HR departments, Chief pilots, and Ops people want to employ. I know tommorrow that if I was compared against another individual of equal experience..the chances are that the decision would be based on that persons personality and percieved ability to fit in.....nothing more.
Yes there are times when money talks...and bull@"*t walks but in general, ability counts for a lot more than you seem to imply.

I can also honestly say Flaps60, that in my experience here in the UK the biggest threat to Brit pilots getting that first job...and I hate to say this......is themselves. Im not sure if its a symptom of modern British society, or just perhaps the many individuals I have crossed paths with; In my experience a vast majority seem unwilling to graft, unable to listen, show little or no respect for their peers, and some even expect success at the first hurdle. Now if all this sounds a bit like Brit bashing I apologise...im merely passing on my observations and opinions.....and for what its worth my Brit wife wants to emmigrate to Oz..(whatch out redsnail im gonna steal an Ozzies job!) but I would rather stay..cos I love the beer...!


Cheers


H

[Luke SkyToddler]

*sigh*

You British wannabes are your own worst enemies sometimes.

I know that the normal half dozen usual xenophobic suspects are going to carry right on playing the man and not the ball for another couple of pages before this thread dies the usual anti-Johnny-Foreigner-thread death, but for the very small handful of you who are actually following this with an open mind :

Here's a question for you all

"As a British wannabe airline pilot, who do you think represents the greater threat to your long term future as a professional pilot in the United Kingdom?"

1) A small 5% handful of naturalized UK citizens, legal holders of UK passports and JAA ATPLs, whose heinous crime is that they wish to pilot a G-reg airliner despite having being born in another country / having a funny accent. Virtually to a man (woman) they are highly experienced professional members of the international airline pilot community. They have, invariably, made huge sacrifices and have worked extremely hard to get to the position they are in. They are not prepared to work for nothing or undercut others, are generally highly pro pilot-workforce, union fee paying, responsible citizens who will fight tooth and nail to protect or improve the working conditions for pilots in whichever country they find themselves?

2) The never ending stream of low houred individuals coming out of flying schools all over this country right now, who are prepared to, on top of the somewhere-between-£40- and £70 thousand they've just spent on professional pilot licence training, will then spend £50 for the privilege of submitting their CV to Ryanair, just so they can THEN drop £150 on a sim ride, £20,000 on a type rating, and THEN sign up for a contract that still includes a 3 year bond, with a basic pay rate of £9900 per annum plus sector pay, half pay for the first 6 months, and they STILL agree to pay for their own medicals, hotac, uniforms, meals, coffee on board the aircraft etc etc etc?

Who will your sons and daughters blame in a generation's time, for screwing the piloting profession so comprehensively, that it is about as well respected and rewarded as that of a checkout assistant or a Mcdonald's employee?

And the correct answer is : not ME matey potatey!

Think about it :( :( :(

And another thing ... with regard to bagging antipodeans who bag the UK ...

http://www.emigratenz.org/bye-bye-blighty.html

Sure looks to me like you\'d ALL pack your bags and leave if you could.

The difference is, that rather than talk about moving abroad, some of us actually prefer to get off our asses and DO it, as opposed to sitting about on internet forums and complaining about it :ok:

[AIRWAY]

and for what its worth my Brit wife wants to emmigrate to Oz..(whatch out redsnail im gonna steal an Ozzies job!)

Same here,

Born in Portugal... Raised in the Uk... Learning to fly in the Uk and hope one day to fly downunder... :} :ok: There you go, thats my plan :cool: Need some amber nectar now... :}

By the way, interesting link Luke

[Artificial Horizon]

As a fully fledged antipodean working as a pilot in the UK all that I can say is any brit wannabe has just as much chance at the job as we do, the only reason one of 'us' gets the job over one of 'you' is that we will be better qualified. If we aren't then we won't get the job. I agree with Luke Skytoddler, you have a lot more to worry about than the small, yes small percentage of non british pilots.

Oh, and just one other thing:

Get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it, get over it :)

[Joe_Bar]

Flaps to 60

The Global Market is a myth including the Job Market as each country is quite clever in producing rules and regulations to exclude the "outsiders". For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly.

If you don't take the effort to speak/understand the language then your jobmarket will remain limited.
If you do take the effort you will make a chance in Germany, Austria or the Netherlands.

Cheers Joe

[redsnail]

haughty,
Fill your boots mate, go for it :D :ok:

[trainer too 2]

For instance in order to get a job with a Dutch Airline you must speak Dutch yet in this game we all speak English supposedly Hahahaha, just recalling the guy at KLM mainline doing his best talking dutch. The Canadian guys flying for Base airlines, the Canadian guys at Schreiner Airways, the addition of the KL UK guys at KLM Cityhopper and then the guy wiuth the French accent on the Air Exel ATR between MST and AMS.. say again your point was...


Fly half. If al the EK, CX etc poms came back tommorrow and all the "foreign" pilots were thrown out you still had a few thousand very experienced pilots out of a job. That is the fun of it, you will have the change to work around the world, use that ability. Don't blame others as it does not work...

What about the EZY pilots based in Germany, should it all be Germans etc.... Would not work I guess, it is good to get a foreign mentality into Germany as it makes us all a bit richer!

[flaps to 60]

Haughtney

the UK the biggest threat to Brit pilots getting that first job...and I hate to say this......is themselves. Im not sure if its a symptom of modern British society, or just perhaps the many individuals I have crossed paths with; In my experience a vast majority seem unwilling to graft, unable to listen, show little or no respect for their peers, and some even expect success at the first hurdle

I don't disagree with this point, not Brit bashing at all, but an insightful observation that is unfortunately a result of the PC lobby's stranglehold on modern British culture. Congratulations on becoming a Brit. I think from tone of your comments which has been infinitely more intelligent than some of your compatriots more base efforts, you will get on well here.

Also what about the huge risks i've taken selling my house putting my marriage on hold moving all over the place to get a shot only to see people who have only travelled a bit longer than me to then get the job. Im not the only one there are hundreds who are also deserving and most unlikely to "return home" when they've had enough.

Im sorry i dont buy the bit about moving half way across the world as a reason for employment for two reasons.

1) You could easy retrace your steps as many do leaving your employer in the lurch and having more expensive training to do.

2) Many non nationals come in with alot more experience than the locals. Many AuNZ pilots come over with alot of dare i say it "bush flying" and a couple of thousand hours which will get you command alot quicker than a 200hr chappie and it's really this CP's want as most UK airlines are getting short of skippers.

LST

If you were a doctor or nurse or teacher i would welcome you with open arms as we have a shortage of these skills in this country. Unfortunately the marketing skills of CABAIR and OATS et al have produced a glut of qualified people only to be compounded by foreigners comming in.

What about the hundreds of Brits who are working their nuts off in flying clubs with hundreds of hours maybe even thousands only to see you come with a bit more experience to get the job. Were not all parent funded 200hr 18yr olds expecting a job just because i attended Oxford.

My opionions on the FR debate has been voiced before. Plus i have no probelms with Irish pilots as there are plenty in EI, RE, FR etc

Those Brits wanting to leave good luck to them and i will help them pack if they're not proud to be British.

Studi

You said it yourself "be fluent in German or have Swiss citizenship", I have neither and therefore I'm excluded.

Artificial

When you say "better qualified" I take it you mean more experienced or are you opening another whole can of worms?

As for the rest of your post.......its rather childish.....and get over that.

Joe_Bar

In my view a global market is where i have freedom to buy what i want from where i want or to travel and work where and when i want anywhere on Gods green earth.

National Borders, Immigaration, GATT, Terrorism, good old fashioned xenophobia etc etc has put a rather sharp end to all that. We have the US battling with the EU who not so long ago had quotas on Japanese cars who place huge taxes on foreign cars....come on i can go all day on this one. Joe be very aware the Global market is a Myth perpetuated by CEO's Politicians and lawyers for thier own gain. How many times has the WTO conferences ended in disaray because each country is looking after its own.

Once again chaps i state my previous position I welcome all from where i would be welcomed.

Can't think of anything else to say at the moment...goodnight :hmm:

[flaps to 60]

Studi

I dont actually want to work outside of this country so i have no need to learn another language even though at school i learnt French and German.

But if i did why should I learn another language when everybody speaks English in this job

You had to learn English because it is the language of avaition and international business.....sorry thats not my fault. And since when has EU citizenship been enough to get a Swiss passport?

Trainer

I take it from your pom reference that you are Australian? Plus you've argued 80% of my point for me, thank you.

Seeing as some of you are as sad as me and on the net at this time instead of being in the happy valley or falling out of a pub i thought id stay on for a while:ok:

[AIRWAY]

You had to learn English because it is the language of avaition

:}

This can be argued, if im not mistaken ( I need to revise my air law :O ) english is "one" of the official languages in aviation with a few others :}

Has for the rest of your post regarding English this and English that i wont even go there... :rolleyes:

AIRWAY


PS - By the way i speak 3 European languages :O not bad :D Bit more flexible when the job hunting time arrives :}

[flaps to 60]

Airway

Sorry for showing a bit of patriotism....in fact no im not sorry and you also need to read my posts again as i have been fair and willing to listen while stating my opinion something you might learn when you make it to the RHS.

3 languages may well help you when it comes to job hunting but dont bank on it. Lots of hours and contacts is what will help get the job.

When i fly outside of th UK its English that ATC, Ops, Despatchers, Met (including Volmets and ATIS) etc all speak to me as we all understand it ( to varying degrees).

Studi

Calm down its only a debate.

Your right i dont know much about EU rules and work regs because i have no need to at the moment as i have no intentions of moving out of the UK i like it here.

As for a reality check well thats another matter altogether.

My arguement is not to stop foreign pilots (who knows i might be one one day) but its the disproportionate amount in the UK and the apparent exclusion of foreigners from some foreign markets.

[AIRWAY]

Fellow Aviator,

Im not arguing about about your patriotism ( i even said i wont go there ), i just stated a comment about the English language in Aviation, maybe you have interpreted it in the wrong way???

I dont need to get to the RHS to teach me how to listen or how to state an opinion...

Heaps of hours :confused: Not yet... Contacts in Aviation :confused: I have a few...

[flaps to 60]

Airway

Very possibly as i did an early this morning and was up before the sparrows started farting........now getting tired and off to bed.

Get the hours some how and make more contacts at the moment its the only way to get a job.

Flaps

[scroggs]

English is not 'the' language of this job, it is one of the official languages of aviation recognised by ICAO. It is supposed to be the only language used for control of international flights, but there are enough legal exceptions to this rule to make it unworkable. I listen to ATC in many, many different countries in the world. Most use their own language when they can (no, it's not just France!).

All airlines conduct their business on the ground in their own language. If you can't speak it, you won't get a job. That applies just as much in UK as it does anywhere else. This whole rant by Flaps sounds like the raging of a small child; the essence of your argument is 'I want a job in Britain, therefore throw out enough nasty foreign people so I can have one'. Sorry, but you're wasting your - and our - time. Perhaps you should join the BNP. ;)

Scroggs

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs

I've always had respect for your comments and that of the other moderators but who's ranting now. I always thought PPRUNE was not just about rumours in the industry but an OPEN forum on which to discuss and debate issues that both affect and effect you. Showing a bit of patroitism and caring about what's happening in our industry doesn't make one a bad person. Also read my profile i have a job in Britain.

throw out enough nasty foreign people

Scroggs.......come on.....show me where i said that or even infered it. All i've asked is that those who do come over to show some respect for our ways as they would if i worked in their country whats wrong with that.

All i want is a level playing field and from where i stand it certainly doesn't seem that way. Prove me wrong and i will apologise to those who are offended. But at the moment the flow of pilots seems to be one way. I have mates trying to get jobs overseas with some of the big carriers and cant get a look in.

Ok so English is not the official langauge but at the moment everyone speaks it and i'll live with that.

To my detractors i ask you this. As you have all stated there are foriegners including British pilots in your home country but you ended up in the UK for a job and be honest here....were you not just a little peeved that a non national got a job you could of had?

Ps. I couldn't join the BNP even if i wanted to if you know what i mean.

Also some time ago French carriers would not recognise a JAA licence unless it was done in France as two French mates told me. Protectionism for the purity of the French market perhaps?

[AIRWAY]

.were you not just a little peeved that a non national got a job you could of had?


Well it doesnt bother "me"... Because i can always go elsewhere for a job... But its only my opinion probably because im young i have no family commitments and willing to travel around the world for a job, and to adapt wherever aviation takes me... I have to admit i have my eyes set for Australia :O :D :} ;)

[scroggs]

Flaps, I didn't say you're a bad person. However, the thrust of the majority of your posts is that there are too many foreign pilots in Britain taking 'British' jobs. It therefore follows that you would rather they weren't here, does it not? As for the issue of fairness vis-a-vis other countries taking British pilots, I would venture to suggest that there are at least as many British pilots working overseas as there are foreign pilots working here. And yes, it even happens in France and Germany - if you are prepared to learn the language, which is only right and proper.

The fact is that, whether you were around to vote for it or not, Britain is tied by a host of treaties, agreements and alliances which promote the (relatively) free movement of labour amongst EU, EFTA and Commonwealth countries. Where you can show that a signatory to these agreements isn't holding up their side of the bargain, you can take them to court. It isn't an option to say 'We'll stop your lot coming here unless you sort it out - and by the way, start speaking English'!

The fact is that there are more potential pilots than jobs, and there are more airlines and pilot jobs in UK than anywhere else outside the US. We are lucky that the movement of labour is as free as it is; we would be cutting our noses off to spite our faces if we were to unilaterally retreat from our participation in this process. In any case, none of this is a matter for UK aviation employers; it is all a result of national and international legislation. Stamping your feet and saying 'it isn't fair' will get you nowhere, I'm afraid.

Scroggs

[ChocksAwayUK]

were you not just a little peeved that a non national got a job you could of had?


Obviously not your official language either! ;)

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs

Deep down i know im not going to get anywhere as im only one voice, but im one of m.

I accept that in this market we have people just trying to get a flying job and admire the drive behind it even though i see my fellow country men unemployed...heck if i was in thier position i might well even do the same.

Come to my country but respect the land that feeds you instead of criticising it at every opportunity.

because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that our kids are going to grow up in this miserable, overtaxed, overgoverned, overpopulated s h i t hole of a society,

Its comments like these from Luke Sky Todler that grate. Come over have a job i'll even buy you a pint in the pub but dont run my country down. Yes we might be over taxed over governed and possibly over populated but this country as far as im concerned is not a **** hole or miserable and im part of that society. If its that bad go home.

Look chaps and chapeses (No such word in sure but you get what i mean) As stated earlier im not racist as that would be impossible for me. I know this is going nowhere and has raised a few hackles but like the influx of foreign pilots its a fact of life and im off today and the living is easy.

So now i've said my peace i'll sit back and watch this space. Thank you for your frank and honest thoughts and opinions.

Chocksaway

Are you one of these people that instead of surfing porn sites or adding something worth while to the conversation go around looking at peoples grammer and spelling.

[ChocksAwayUK]

It's "grammar", dammit!

[flaps to 60]

Chocks

Good call!

Well done!

[ChocksAwayUK]

I apologise.. I just can't help myself.

Must. get. therapy.

:ok:

[M.85]

Dear flyhalf,

Europe boundaries dont stop at the english channel..if you want a job look elsewhere..then come back when you have the requirements your local airlines are looking for...
I have moved to slovakia 6 months ago for my first jet job..90% of the first officers are coming from the europe you know..denmark sweden england austria germany france...we all speak english at work and never heard any slovaks asking why so many "western" europeans are heard over the radio..
In 6 months ill be on the left seat,something impossible in england for example..
The airline i work for is not all gold but at least it gives the chance to any nationality to join its ranks and the atmosphere hasnt changed since i joined in..its a great melting pot and the work with each crew is more than enjoyable.

Pay your dues one way or the other and consider taking 3 years abroad to get the experience and after its up to you to choose the airline you really want to work for.

I wish all of you looking for work good luck and a broadminded airline job seeking.

Regards,

M.85

[Maxiumus]

F to 60:

Just a thought or two. Ask yourself why all these people with their superior experience are are in the UK. Is it really because they would all rather live in the UK rather than home? Of course not. So why are they here? Because they can't get jobs at home, because the aviation indutries in other nations are not nearly so vibrant as the UK. Are you not glad that you at least have a chance of a job in your home country, whereas all these guys/girls don't? Have you any idea whatsoever how lucky you are that this is the case?
Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.
I for one am glad you are not flying shiny jets in my outfit, the company of these "foreign" pilots sounds far more appealing that 10 hours of listening to your angry and bitter vitriol.

[flaps to 60]

Maximus

Read my post again. I have a job in this country and fully aware of how lucky I am when i read the wannabes desperately looking for a job, even instructing. Once again for you i say " I welcome all from where I am welcome".

I also fly with "dirty foreigners" (as everybody except me puts it) for up to 10 hrs a day and i get on well with them just as i with the locals.

In fact i have nothing against them and then banter in the cockpit is the same as with everyone else. You know....state of the economy, what im doing on my days off, the good looking stewardess,OPS...(thats always a good one) how lucky we are to be here....the list is long. You have jumped to conclusions about me which is a trait i would not want to fly for 10hrs with.

Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.

This is a particularly dumb statement and cant quite fathom out the reasons for it. Of course im proud that that nation's aviation industry is probably second only to the US and in order for it to be a healthy one some measures taken may be distasteful to me but as said earlier what can i do as one voice. So i live with it.

It is also easy to take the high ground when you have a job. Ask those who have taken the biggets risk of thier lives if they would agree when they cant get a job and the dept collectors are knocking the door. I know i've been there.

M.85

I have moved to slovakia 6 months ago for my first jet job..90% of the first officers are coming from the europe you know..denmark sweden england austria germany france...we all speak english at work and never heard any slovaks asking why so many "western" europeans are heard over the radio..

How many locals are there hanging around with a CPL/IR looking for a job. Id wager not many if any as the former Eastern block countries dont have many pilot training schools as most of thier pilots came from the military. Russia is facing the same problem as the former national programme of pilot training is not attracting the same number of locals as before and they may well have to look outside for their pilots.


Hey CHOCKS how was that one or do i need to spell check it again

[scroggs]

Flaps I too get irritated by immigrants who feel that, having obtained a job, accommodation and security here (and possibly qualifying for benefits beforehand), they can turn round and criticise the country that gave them the opportunities they couldn't get at home. However, that's human nature, and we're unlikely to change it.

Best of luck with your campaign, but, as you suspect, it'll be a lonely one! :ok:

Scroggs

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs old chap i suspect your right but it was worth a try.

The other arguement is that why should a UK airline pay for a locals type rating when they can get an outsider with a type rating already.

Is this not similar to the argement about paying for your own rating?

TTFN

[scroggs]

Yes, but that's for a different thread....;)

[south coast]

flaps to...

why is it impossible for you to be racist?

please don't say because you are black....i have been flying in south africa, democratic republic of congo, angola, central african republic, zimbabwe, rwanda, uganda, gabon, cameroon and algeria and i can confirm to you that it is not just white people who are racist!

but, i do think you have a point worth saying...and lets face it, not everyone is going to like or agree with everyone else...

[flaps to 60]

Southcoast

I could be Jewish, Asian, mixed, black with lots of white mates or white with lots of black mates take your pick but iam not racist.

All I really see are good people and bad people and they come in a rainbow of colours.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Hey flaps

Which part of

I actually quite like it here

immediately followed by

but unfortunately my (English) wife has spent a year or two back in New Zealand, and she's already determined that we'll be away back down under when the time comes to have kids, because having seen the relative standard of living in both countries there's no way in hell that (etc etc) ...

did you fail to understand?

Her words not mine, I can categorically assure you. As you well knew. So don't quote me out of context. And if I had a penny for every British person who's said to me "you left New Zealand to move to this place, you must be mad" ... don't even get me started :rolleyes: Britain-bashing is definitely your own national sport first and foremost.

Me I've got no axe to grind with the UK at all today :) had a great day, on standby so I went kite surfing at St Andrews all day, in the scorching sunshine ... and got paid to do it ... heading out for a nice curry and a quiet ale in an hour or two ... as good as life gets :ok:

Yes we 'may' end up moving on from here if I get a better offer, but the next port of call is just as likely to be Dubai or Hong Kong or something as it is to be Luton or Glasgow (or Auckland). Life's too short to spend it all in one location without seeing the world after all. Of course, if I was to go to an outfit like Cathay or Emirates I would have to raise myself to the same high standards as all those hundreds and hundreds of expat British pilots who comprise the majority of airline pilots in those two companies (and many others around the world).

And another thing - not all jobs are yours by god given right of just having an FATPL. Take the one I've got now, it was advertised in Flight for some considerable length of time, as specifically requiring a pilot with 2000+ hours and a decent amount of M/E. The reason it was advertised in Flight is obviously because the boss had no CVs in hand that were suitable ... and yes he was looking very hard! Yes I'm sure he had more cvs from wet-behind-the-ears 200 hour FATPLs than he knew what to do with, but that was fundamentally not what the job required. He ended up in desperation, asking a few other pilots in the company to recommend any of their mates, I got a phone call in my little air ambulance job on the other side of the world, and the rest is history. IF he had had any suitable UK-based CVs in the pile, I'm sure it would have saved him a lot of hassle, but at the end of the day, he didn't. What was the guy supposed to do?

[AIRWAY]

Luke,

Life's too short to spend it all in one location without seeing the world after all.

Exacly the theory that i want to use, when i start job hunting... Some say the world is too small some say its too big, but either way there is too much to see and enjoy... And great places to fly. :E :ok: :O :D

[Maxiumus]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or maybe you would prefer that the jobs were not in the UK in the first place. That would soon sort out all these foreigners coming to "take" your job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"This is a particularly dumb statement and cant quite fathom out the reasons for it."

- No, not really, its what you're suggesting in the last analysis. Foreigners are employed in the UK as there are not enough qualified British pilots. You're continually banging on about your mates that can't get jobs. But what experience do they have? Do you know of any, for example antipodeans, with 200 hours who walked into a jet job?? No, nor me. Not everyone wants to employ people with low experience.
Also the "welcome if I'm welcome where they're from" thing isn't a runner. No doubt you would be if you could speak the local lingo. But they ain't gonna change so the likes of you have a chance. Why would they? You'd have more luck getting British airlines to conduct operations in Scots Gaelic, Welsh or Olde English as appropriate.

[fly-half]

Ok people seem to have strong feelings on this but can anyone please provide actual examples of day-to-day operations with foreign pilots? I'm on another night shift and I've just heard a foreign pilot working on a Uk airline ask several times, "say again" to Servisair, purely because of a difficulty in understanding english. It was comical.

[AIRWAY]

say again" to Servisair, purely because of a difficulty in understanding english

I agree, but wouldnt this be an airline recruitment problem? It's their fault that they recruited someone where their English is inapropriate for the current job.

Regards,
AIRWAY

[flaps to 60]

Maximus old chap

Also the "welcome if I'm welcome where they're from" thing isn't a runner. No doubt you would be if you could speak the local lingo[/QUOTE

They speak perfect English in Aus/NZ/USA/RSA/Most of the Caribbean and Canada and im sure that the proportion of non locals is low compared to like for like comparison with UK airlines. These are some of the hardest countries for Brits of all experiences to get into.

You're continually banging on about your mates that can't get jobs. But what experience do they have?
Between 1400 and 2500 hrs MCC plenty and of Multi.

Do you know of any, for example antipodeans, with 200 hours who walked into a jet job?

Not in this country but some have in Aus acxcording to my Aussie colleagues]

[QUOTE]But they ain't gonna change so the likes of you have a chance. Why would they?
Does that mean i have to learn every language for countries that i might want to work in or have CX,GF,EK all of which the local language is not English have got it wrong.

Fly half

The worst one's are the Eastern Europeans flying for FR. It's actually quite scary rather than comical as for some the clearances has to be repeated several times. And before you get on your high horses i know it's not all of you but definitely some of you

[Angel´s One Fife]

Flaps to 60

The racist ranting got you no where so now you are FR bashing. What an original way to try to now get support. If you are so against people stealing your jobs, will you be asking all the English with their 200 hours who no work out of GOW for Logan to return home too. Somehow I do no think you will.

Sometimes you just have to be realistic and realise that hey since you were not sponsored you took a gamble and well it has not paid off yet for you.

While you sit there at your ops job and ;listen to those nasty guys from East Europe in FR who you think are so thick that they can't speak English correctly. Well hey they are doing the job and you are not and I bet they can read PAN OPS in the ICAO language of Russian. And I may be wrong so feel free to correct me but FR is Irish not British so I guess you have not applied then since you feel so striong on the issue.

Get over it!

[Maxiumus]

"Does that mean i have to learn every language for countries that i might want to work in or have CX,GF,EK all of which the local language is not English have got it wrong.
"

CX, GF and EK are not valid arguments here. They speak English becuase, in the case of CX, it was of British nationality when founded and, GF and EK, employed mostly expats as the locals did not have the experience required. Incidentally, to follow your logic, the Bahrainis and people of the Emirates (not sure of collect word here!), must surely be rather miffed at the non-Arabic speaking of these airlines.

However, the likes of AF, KLM, LH etc etc etc, were set up in countries with enough native pilots available and did of course, in days before European integration, only (or mainly anyway?) employ locals. So quite obviously the language of choice was the local one. You don't really expect them to change all their operations to English just to accommodate non-native speakers now do you?

[flaps to 60]

Angels

Oh dear you really should read the whole message and not take from it what you want just like the press.

Now time for some quotes.

The racist ranting got you no where so now you are FR bashing

Im not racist but just proud of being British and support my country. FR bashing is sometimes justified but if you read my post you would have seen that i was pointing out that some of the pilots they have employed English is not thier first language and like yesterday, ATC has to repeat messages more than once. Which in the busy London TMA is not what you want.

will you be asking all the English with their 200 hours who no work out of GOW for Logan to return home too. Somehow I do no think you will

Not a well thought out statement and one you could have avoided if you read all of my posts.

Sometimes you just have to be realistic and realise that hey since you were not sponsored you took a gamble and well it has not paid off yet for you

.While you sit there at your ops job

Read someones profile as well as their post but for you i'll say it again. I HAVE A JOB FLYING.......IN THE UK......FOR A BRITISH AIRLINE. Is that clear now! Good!!

And I may be wrong so feel free to correct me but FR is Irish not British so I guess you have not applied then since you feel so striong on the issue

Somewhere on page one or two I mentioned that Irish airlines including EI was one of the only EU states that i have seen employing non nationals and have no problems with Irish pilots in this country.

I applied to both FR and EI sorry i didn't get EI but happy that i didn't FR.

Read some of the other posts like MAXIMUS. He doesn't agree with me but at least he has the intelligence to formulate a well thought out argument.

Maximus

Of course i dont it just seems to me that too many obstacles are placed in order to stop non nationals applying and getting the job in those airlines. Now i have learn't a few thing over these posts (except from Angels one Fife) mainly from Studi and im willing to conceed that there are foreigners in other airlines.

But it would be interesting to see what the percentages are in relation to those in UK airlines. Also why do they never advertise these jobs on either an EU or worldwide basis like BA BMI VS etc.

I remember reading an article sometime ago about CX and recruitment. They couldn't get enough locals to apply because flying is not considered to be an hounorable career as say a lawyer doctor or businessman hence the large influx of mainly Brits, Aussies and Kiwi's. Could this be the same in the UAE?

[FlyingIrishman]

As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong in principle with LH, IB, AZ, etc. looking after their own - something that's steadily going out of the window in my company. Irish pilots are actually in the minority there and the vast majority of new pilots are Dutch, Belgian, German, Scandinavian, etc.

It is unfair seeing Irish guys/gals wanting jobs which are being snapped up by foreigners - surely your own should be the first port of call - if that makes me a racist then so be it.

While we have a vast mix of nationalities, it is frustrating to see how easily foreigners get in but for the likes of myself it is virtually impossible to work for LH, IB, AZ, etc, as they are primarily looking after their own. The argument about having to speak the lingo, as I see it, is irrelevant. The operation is conducted in English and as a result everybody speaks more or less fluent English.

As far as LH are concerned, it is a requirement to have a German licence so even JAR goes out of the window... - what hope do any foreigners have there? Anyone able to clarify?

[FlyingIrishman]

I'm not trying to slate you or LH for the way things are done there - I was merely pointing out that all that JAR has done is open up the English speaking job market to foreigners whilst this has not reciprocated the equal chance of employment in the EU for Irish/British citizens.

Your example of LH being a German company and being run the German way went out of the window a few years ago when LH Cargo were desperate for crew and took on several Spanish direct entry captains whose German was non-existant.

Germany may have JAR implemented but that doesn't stop German employers still requiring a German issued license along with the long range theory cert.

Glass houses and stones spring to mind.....

[flaps to 60]

You obviously don't have a clue. So please stay where you are and shut up.

Studi

I did have some respect for you earlier but comments like this are unbecoming of that expected for a future captain. FlyingIrishman is entitled to his opinion so relax its only a debate.

DLH is a German company, it has a German history, the biggest single group of passengers are Germans, most of the employees are German. So the corporate culture is German, you either adapt or stay away, easy.
Aren't we supposed to be Europeans and becoming a federal state with no borders one currency one love united under the belief that i can work anywhere i want etc etc. Yeah right! each country looks after its own except the UK and Ireland who actually follow the letter of the law for both Europeans and members of the Commonwealth.

Germany may have JAR implemented but that doesn't stop German employers still requiring a German issued license along with the long range theory cert.
Same as France and im sure other EU countries, sounds like protectionism to me.

[flaps to 60]

Studi

Read my last but one post I have conceeded that some foreign pilots are employed by some airlines but i still see that the flow is fairly onesided.

When and where did LH advertise for these cadets because i sure didn't see it on an international or even EU wide basis as BA and BMI etc did in Flight.

Your right until i see what i consider a more balanced cross border exchange of recruitment my views probably wont change but the debate has been a good one. Im off flying now see ya!

Ps. Respect on the apology it takes a big man to do that and something you dont see to often on this site.

[Maxiumus]

Fto60:
I agree with you that as all the pilots in the likes of LH etc speak English, it should be possible to speak only English and work in these companies. In an ideal world, this would happen.
I also agree that the Germans and the French abolutely do not recognise non-national JAA licences (this is undisputed fact, Studi et al). Which should be, and possibly is, illegal.

However, the thrust of my argument is that it is unrealistic to expect these companies to change to English operation. For example, in AF, everything other than comms (outside France) is in French. They are not, no chance, ever, going to change EVERYTHING into English. I presume others are the same, so regrettably we must live with it. Now this issue of the French talking French to French ATC, and the appalling radio discipline of AF, is for another thread...

FlyingIrishman:
I am not sure it is a case of LH, IB etc looking after their own per se, instead of the fact that their own are somewhat better at the local language than foreigners.
In a little thread creep, if you will forgive me, I once seem to recall thinking, due to your impassioned defence of the methods of a certain Irish loco, that you were a highly placed HR official is said company. If you are indeed a pilot at said company, which seems likely from reading your post, what now is your opinion of said company in light of recent events?

[747 Downwind]

I have been watching this post evolve over the last fortnight or so with great anticipation, watching the " two sides" bat it out!

I think it is fair to say that there clearly are proportionately more foreign pilots working for UK based carriers than there are reciprocated.. c'est la vie, irrespective of whether they are antipodians, continentals or others. Clearly Commonwelath pilots should have more rights to work in the UK first, but that is surely another thread.

It appears to me that your average Johnny Foreigner will have a better understanding of the English language than Dagenham Dave would have of any langauge other than English. However, it is imperative that these 'foreigners' so to speak have an understanding of English anyway, whereas lets be honest if you can find a flying job in the UK bo11ox to bothering to learn another language... perhaps that is our (BRITISH) fatal flaw, or maybe just mine!

I too complain of the lack of standardisation of foreign aircrew recruitment, but with respect to Europe, it is the fault of JAR. It is weak, just like its bigger brother if you like, the EU. It stands for nothing.. we abide by the ANO, not JAROPS, the ANO is legally binding and that's that, this is why the French et al get away with there contradictory practices.:mad:

But am I angry with the foreign pilots working in the UK? Air France? BA? NO!
It is intrinsically a fault within our government for being weak.. you see it in aviation, European politics, control of national borders etc etc etc (I could bore u lot if I went on any further and I probably already am!)

BLAIM the Government: I hear so many Britsh pilots of all ages moaning about these issues but there only a few answers to the dilemma.

1) Put up with it:{
2) Go abroad, if u can, and then... stay there:ugh:
3) Leave aviation permanently:oh:
4) Or vote the government out, stay cool and be patient for that elusive flying job in the finest imperialistic country ever to live.. yes it may be full or criminals, high taxes, sh1t transport, crappy laws, but it's BRITISH and you're still here and u know it!:ok:

[Mister Geezer]

Look at airlines in the Gulf - Emirates, Gulf Air, Qatar Airways and Etihad. If you are a national in UAE or Qatar for example then imagine what it feels like to possibly have the whole crew on a flight to be foreign! I flew back from the Middle East yesterday with a Gulf based airline and a hostie who was from the Far East was speaking to a Arabic lady in English because the hostie could obviously not speak the native Arabic lingo. Maybe the pax felt insulted when having this on the national airline of her country but on the other hand probably not!!!

[flaps to 60]

Geezer

I think you'll find that women of most of the Middle Eastern countries are not allowed to be cabin crew only the men are according to a hostie friend of mine in GF.
However, the thrust of my argument is that it is unrealistic to expect these companies to change to English operation. For example, in AF, everything other than comms (outside France) is in French. They are not, no chance, ever, going to change EVERYTHING into English. I presume others are the same, so regrettably we must live with it. Now this issue of the French talking French to French ATC, and the appalling radio discipline of AF, is for another thread
Once again Maximus i cannot disagree with you.

Maybe its time that ICAO did make one language an official one and i'd bet a pound to a penny it would be English and as for French ATC.....OH LORDY......Thats when they're working of course.

747Downwind.

To your point 4 im with you dear boy!

[Maxiumus]

Fto60

Indeed if a common language were to be designated it would no doubt be English. We can only hope...
I would like to add apologies for accusing you of bitterness and vitriol etc earlier in this. In hindsight, the argument you make is a valid one. A free flow in all directions would be a great thing. My point is mainly the unliklihood of this happening however and how, to be flippant, we need to get over it.
And maybe I should get worked up over it. My (Irish and much talked about) company has multitudes of foreign pilots while they are no doubt many unemployed Irish pilots around. (although whether they would want to be here is a different matter!). On the other hand, the mix of nationalities makes the job more interesting and enjoyable. Tough one innit?

[flaps to 60]

Maximus

Once again it takes a big man and with that in mind i apologise to those who may have been offended.

I only want a level playing field and look forward to that day.

[haughtney1]

F60

Although I cant abide by some of your comments......I commend you for raising such an interesting...and devisive thread..at least it has stimulated some debate on the subject..and it beats the hell out of eastenders and emmerdale!!..(wifey forces me to watch!)


cheers


H

[flaps to 60]

Haughtney

Sorry old chap cant claim starting this this one i only added some fuel to the fire.

I believe it was fly half so blame him!

Its been a good one with some intersting comments made on both side.

I hear QF is recruiting maybe i'll apply.......well if you cant beat 'em join them.

[747 Downwind]

Flaps to 60: Thankyou sir, one likes to be of assistance when one can. I too appreciated your views which were a tribute to The Commonwealth, tis irratating when these PC draconians misplace genuine patriotism (even jingoism dare I say it) for totaliterianist fascism... can they not appreciate are somewhat 'over zealous' nationalism.. is it such a crime?!

We are proud of our nation, and I for one respect those who are proud of their own national identity, so I raise my glass to u flaps to 60... 'To the Queen!'


Somebody play me the national anthem;)

[haughtney1]

I heard the national anthem..at my officially becoming a brit ceremony..........I wonder if batman and robin were humming the tune as the scaled the palace walls..(you'll only get this if you live in the UK)..:p

[flaps to 60]

747 Downwind

To you Sir I say "thank you" and God Save the Queen and the British aviation industry.

[fly-half]

Yeah thanks guys for an interesting insight into this. I've got a sim assessment next month for the chance to fly for the airline which I am very excited about. Funny, turns out I don't have any competition from foreigners in this instance but from four other people within the airline! Two of them are girls so should I get worried? Are recruiters more lenient with them because they're keen to increase the proportion of female pilots within the airline? (Ouch, that hurt, can't say that can I?).

Anybody got a can opener?........................................ hehehe

[flaps to 60]

Oi Fly half

I bet you carry around a bodyguard for the amount and type of "Ahem", "Discussions" you start.

Just hope they're not a female ethnic minority lesbian veggan with four kids who wants to ban the bomb and lives in Islington with a country pad in Greenham Common and you should be ok.

Joking aside, I wish you the very best of luck. It'll all be worth it when you get there. The very best of British old chap!

Haughtney

In days gone by, before PC they would have been hung drawn and quartered.........ah the good old days what! Iknow you'll always be a Kiwi at heart but i hope you enjoy living as a Brit, we're not all that bad. Toodle pip old fruit.

[Baron rouge]

I have just been reading this whole thread with much interest, but to my point of view, there are a few points that should be stressed:

- the fact that Easy, Ryanair and so on are now flying a lot of extra UK routes in Europe, and unfortunately no EU carrier is authorised/able to do such thing in UK.
All those jobs are lost for EU pilots, it is just natural that a handful of those pilots deprived of jobs at home try to find something in EI or UK.

-Language : Everybody seems to acknowledge that it is much easier for a foreigner to learn English than for a Brit to learn a foreign language… I would put it this way, you are just a bunch of lazy *** moaning for nothing.

-Border protection from EU countries : another lie, I have been working in Italy, not knowing a single word of Italian, and with me there were a SWISS, a GERMAN, a GREEK, a RUSSIAN, but sure no BRITS, too difficult for them.

[airshowpilot]

Agree with the Baron to a large extent. That is except for the fact that I'm a Brit employed by an operator from another European country (fancy that eh?) living and flying in Italy and also willing to learn the language. The British airlines barely gave my CV the time of day...perhaps, I'll make the most of this JAA licence and the right to live and work in the EU. Have passport, will travel...arrivederci Blighty!

[747 Downwind]

To 'The Red Baron':


Who ever acknowledged it is easier for a foreigner to learn English; my mother is European and has learnt a multitude of European languages, including French, and argues that English was one of the most difficult to master.. due to its somewhat grammatical idiosynchratic irregularities.

I salute your point about the fact that many Brits are unwilling, and dare I say it incapable, of learning a second language. Good Lord, some of our academic establishments have even failed to teach pupils to a basic elementary standard... in ENGLISH!

Irrespective of the conduct of Air France et al, as a Brit my issues are BA etc who HAVE not always employed 'Home Grown' talent.. there is a contradiction in JAR as it is regulatory and NOT mandatory.

To conclude, many of my countrymen are ill-mannered abroad and sometimes behave in a manner which is uncouth.. it irritates me immensely to see their basic lack of foreign linguistic skills both in France and in particular Spain.. BUT you have referred to British Aircrew.

You see dear boy, I don't have to learn French, German or any other language whereas for you it is mandatory to learn English, and this where I think it lies for the Frenchmen.

Your post exudes the fact that you, as a nation, are bitter about having to learn and operationally use English in your workplace. So much so that you are willing to compromise safety, ref: Paris Orly 2000, British First Officer decapitated by an aircraft cleared to take off on the reciprocal runway: French being used by ATC and the French aircraft.

The Japanese, Chinese, Germans and Russians (all G8 or equivalent superpowers) accept the ICAO language as English, why do the French have to resist... English is the global dominant language of the world and that is that, c'est la vie as you say:E

[Baron rouge]

747,
I completely agree with you about the use of English as the unique language in aviation. The main problem being that a lot of French aviation people can get away with just a bit of technical English and they don’t feel the need to learn more. This lack of proper command of English language could prove disastrous in some occasions.

Speaking about the accident where one copilot lost his life, the real facts are a bit different from what you say:
1) it was at De Gaulle, and the Short was taking off on the same runway but about 1500 meters from the runway end.
2) the French MD 80 was cleared for take off
3)The Short was cleared to line up from this strip after this take off.
4)The short mistook an A/C having just landed with the one about to take off
5)From where the Short lined up neither A/C could see the other due to the configuration of the runway.

So I am not sure language was involved in this accident, but again, even as a French, I agree, everybody should use English and English only.

[747 Downwind]

I can not believe it.. I just spent 20 mins typing up a nice reply to u Baron Rouge, and the system crashed..:mad:

I will just stick with an abbreviated reply, u will have to excuse me.

1) Sorry, De Gaulle it was.
2) AAIB or equivalent body put it down to ATC using French, hence S360 Streamline Aviation may have understood a/c cleared to T.O and held position.
3) My issue is with some national flag carriers such as Lufthansa and in particular Air France who do not follow JAR guidlines.. allegedly:p , and NOT Europeans or Europeans that come to work in the UK.
4) I can't be bothered to type the rest cos I'm so ***** ***this crappy site crashed on me,
:{

[Piltdown Man]

I've no problem having members of the EU working in Europe. What I have a problem with are those from outside the EU with no formal rights to work or residency like those employed by both GypoAir (aka Ryanair) and those who fly aircraft wetleased by MyTravel etc... with Codlike registrations starting TF- and other starting with a C-. I hope the first lot get caught out by Canadian Lottery scams and the rest go expensively tech. I hope they go home soon and GOOD BUCKING RIDDANCE!

[redsnail]

Piltdown man,
How do you feel about British citizens and British companies offering their services to eg Canada for the (UK) winter?
Are they not wetleases? Are they not taking the jobs of locals?

[Re-Heat]

Learn a language and grab the opportunities instead of complaining.

Lufthansa has employed BA 737 pilots on secondment in the past and is nowhere like Air France in terms of national protection of jobs.

[SpokoKolo]

Don't worry to much about foreign pilots on your (UK) jobmarket.

Let's say, Poland, EU and JAA country, thanks to our CAA "smart" people, no right to issue JAA licence.

Polish pilots can't applay to UK companies.

Regarding to foreign pilots on our jobmarket, for example Wizzair, they called themself the bigest polish LCC, few polish pilot work for them.

First day when Easyjet and FR will fly from Poland will be last day to all polish LCC or even LOT.

T & C - Eurlot, ATR42, less then 1000 EUR p.m..

Good luck for everybody.

SpokoKolo

[fly-half]

Just thought some people would like to know, I got the job and have just passed my final line check - it's all absolutely brilliant!

[needajob01]

I am a british foreigner looking for a job in my british foreign country ...

[Rizla2002]

I would like to say a few word about this interesting subject.
I am italian, I have studied in the UK, I have a Jaa frozen Atpl from the Uk CAA.
I have spent a couple of years between the States and the Uk to get this licence.
I wanted to work in the Uk since I think it's the most professional aviation enviroment in the world. So just after my MCC, together with my English classmate, we started to send out the application forms, the CV's and the cover letters to every single operator in the country, without any preference between jet, turboprop or pistons.
Well, after a few months, we are stil looking for a job, either italian or british...
When I came back to Italy to see if there was any chance back home, I realized that half of the pilots flying in private airlines, like Airone, Blue panorama, meridiana etc., are from other countries; we probably have the highest percentage of former Sabena pilots in our fleet!
My point is that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter where you are from, it matters the experience that you have...
Airlines don't give a ##@ about your nationality, they just want people they are gonna spend the least amount of money on...
Every other consideration for them is negligible.

[needajob01]

cia Rizla, come stai????

yes you are right, it is all about money.
Now they even charge you to fly. they do not care where you come from as long you have enough cash to pay these low cost airlines.

a company in milan(eurofly?) ask for 40000 euro for a type rating and 100h on the A320. then out, and they take someone else.

this job sounds like when you go in a 6 flags in the USA, you pay your ride, you have fun for 1 month, then bye bye...they let you on the tarmac with no money and if you want fly again, you have to pay again.

So now if you want the 500h on type, you have to go 5 times to 6 flags... so do they ask you what is you nationality? no, ...do they care if you have a family, ...no? do they ask if you can pay?.... YESSSSSS!!!!!...

[mach79]

Flaps to 60,

Having read through the thread, I fully sympathise with your position-and you have defended yourself graciously against the "Brigade".
I fear there all too many of you out there in a similar predicament.

However it would be naive of you to expect help from those who are part of the problem, and still others who seek to give you advice having themselves obtained employment in shall we say" less rigorous market conditions".

Good luck, I don't envy you.

[needajob01]

what is the best nationaliyy to work in England.

or to work in Europe?

Swiss? German?, Italian?, British? American? Serbe?Croate?...
have "foreign" british citizen more chance to find a job?