6 On 4 Off

[surface wind]

We are having a Union meeting to discuss going to the 6 On 4 Off roster. Can anyone out there who currently works this roster tell me what it's really like compared to the 'old roster'.

P.S

Replies from Bono Vox, Controller friendly (with the big hose pipe), or gul dukat will not be accepted !!!!!!!

:mad: :D

[160to4DME]

SW

If the proposal is MM-AA-NN, then the reality is actually 7 on, 3 off.

I'm wrecked after my 2nd night duty, and sleep for most of that first "off" day.

Hate them :(

[gul dukat]

this is being written in an anonymous accent !! SW I worked it a Scatcc for ages ...LOVE THOSE DAYS OFF I will debate it with you tommorrow !! as will my soul mate voxxy and cf

[The Fat Controller]

I work this roster in Airways at ScACC, and it usually works out at 2 sets of nights a month and one cycle ending in 2 day shifts of 8-4 or 10-6, which does give you the 4 clear days off.
Those who compile the watch lists usually manage to give you "days" before leave as well, and on the whole it works well.

[Big Nose1]

160 DME, so under the current system, after sleeping the first day off, you have 2 days off before returning to work. How is 3 days worse !?! under a 6 on 4 off system.
SW I have worked both, and 6 on 4 off is FARFAR better. All the medical evidence of many trials suggest a progressive early to late shift system is much better than the current AC jetlag inducing hell.

[160to4DME]

Big Nose

No, we have 3 days off after a sleep day, but most of management say we get 4 days off.

To my mind, finishing a night shift at 0700 means my duty includes that day, as most of that day is spent catching up on sleep.

As the FATCO ;-) stated, day duties do give you a genuine 4 days off, but when it comes to nights, it just doesn't feel like it to me!

160

[Big Nose1]

160 DME, agreed, but surely 3 days off after a sleep day is better than 2. I never listen to Managements impression of what we work.....they fondly remember the days when life was much easier than it is now, ie nights off, early go`s, gash days, 2 hour breaks to play squash etc etc. The sad thing is that almost all of them believe thats how it still is!!!

[250 kts]

Surely you only get 4 days off providing you do day lates on days 5&6. Otherwise you're SRATCOH'd and if doing early days would have to do these on days 6&7 giving only 3 days off?

[controller friendly]

I know i'm not supposed to be replying to this but i'm not one for doing what i am told! ;)
250kts-not necessarily.You see we work all sorts of day shifts instead of A's and M's so it is possible to work the full 6 even if you are not on nights & still enjoy the benefit of 4 whole days off.
Mind you will we get time to talk about that today, apparently bigger fish to fry :(

[The Fat Controller]

250k,
Sorry didn't make it clear, at ScACC if you do the 0800-1600 days shifts, the afternoon shifts are as follows, first one is 1400-2200 and the second is 1300-2000, therefore ensuring it is compliant in respect of the 12 hours off between shifts, and you do get the 4 days off, thankfully !
Regards,

[Applycarbheat]

6 on 4 off are great especially as you never have to work a full 2 nights....160to4DME seems to have overlooked that. At most units including LATCC if you are doing nights you usually work 1 and sleep the other. Mind you this will be changing, I am sure TAG will not want to pay people to come in and go to sleep for the night.

[160to4DME]

ApplyCarbHeat

<<6 on 4 off are great especially as you never have to work a full 2 nights....160to4DME seems to have overlooked that. At most units including LATCC if you are doing nights you usually work 1 and sleep the other.>>

With the greatest of respect, if I turn up at 2200 on each night duty and leave at 0700 in the morning on both nights, then I consider myself to have done 2 night duties. The most I have ever had as sleep time is 4 hours, and I do not consider that as a perk.

I think you need to check your facts before posting on a forum read by management that at most units we're actually asleep on atleast one of the nights. If that's what you do at LATCC, then all power to you, but please don't tar the whole organisation with such a broad brush.

[Father Dougal]

160to4DME - you're quite right, in reality the roster is 7 on 3 off as you are working 7 hours of the first day off. However that is true of both patterns

MMAANNSOOO
AAOMMNNSOO

(S - Sleep day O - off)

whichever pattern you working it is 7 working days and 3 days off. The difference with the so-called 6 on 4 off roster is that you actually get three whole days - much nicer and social-life friendly - especially if you want to go away anywhere. I have experience of both rosters and the 6/4 is MUCH better. As for applycarbheat's rather blinkered statement - the vast majority of units don't have the staff to allow that kind of perk. I'm rostered for two whole night shifts and I WORK two whole nightshifts.

If working days instead of nights - how that is arranged depends very much on the individual unit. Obviously the day shift hours are arranged to fit around position opening hours etc. If working days instead of nights you can either make sure the day workers are rostered to leave 12 hours before the start of their first day shift or displace the day shifts by one day eg:

MMAAODDOOO

This solution obviously makes rostering easier at units where there's less staff but like I said both ways are workable.

If you're invoved in trying to write a new roster I'd suggest you take a look at the rosters of other airports. Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburh might be worth a look-see for some ideas. :D

[callyoushortly]

I'm at EDI....
We work the 6 on 4 off cycle with the MMAANNSOOO theory behind it.

As we have 6 to a watch, 3 people do nights, one on leave and the other 2 on day shifts.

D2 = 1230-1930
D1 = 0730-1430

One person doing D2 D1 after the afternoons, one doing one day off then D2 D1. Therefore, the person doing the days with no break after the afternoon, ends up having a full four days off. Usually it's the person going on leave the cycle after just to allow them an extra half day before leave.

[spekesoftly]

So the guys at LATCC manage to sleep peacefully throughout every other night shift - no problem with aircraft noise pollution there then! :D

[Autolycus]

6 and 4. The Spanish work that, 6 off, four on!

[cossack]

On a pessimistic note...
How long will it be do you think before either 3rd day working or individual (shift logic) rosters are introduced?

On the face of it, what we work now is not the most efficient use of resources. We are already seeing more use of "sub-rosters" so putting more people on a sub-roster will gradually erode the watch system, for better or for worse.

[surface wind]

Bono Vox,

I'm still not convinced obout 6 on 4 off. I suppose my main problem is the 'kids', but thats my own fault for not keeping my wedding tackle where it should stay. Maybe you'll discover that shortly!!!!
As for other big fish to fry, maybe you could start that under another tread? Might make interesting reading

I am not sure that people should be posting 'I only work one night' or 'I come in at 4' etc etc. I'm sure TAG read this web site. I would if I were them.

El Surface Windo
:D :D :eek: :eek:

[no_name_oz]

I don't know if an Aussie response counts but the 6 on 4 off cycle here worked reasonably well given the number of nights shifts you have to cop.

The cycle is:

D1 D2 D3 D4 D5 D6 D7 D8 D9 D10
M M N N A A O O O O

M=0600-1300
N=2300-0600
A=1300-2300

We have a quick change from the second morning to the first night (ie finish at 1:00pm and back at 11:00pm that night) and a long change from the second night to the first afternoon (ie finsh at 6:00am on day 4 (D40 and start at 1:00pm on day 5 (D5)).

Doesn't sound terribly palatable but it works reasonably well and the few guys that are on it agree it's vastly superior to any of the alternatives we've tried.

We're running this on a 5 man H24 operational supervisor roster. (We actually run 6 men to allow for staff development - both of supervisors and other staff)

Personally the 4 day breaks are great although some retraining is required on return (Hey - I'm a supervisor - if I could still do the job I'd be bending aircraft around the sky for fun!)

[Dan Dare]

Having worked both, the AC system is HUGELY better!!! If finishing on morning spins, this allows afternoon travelling (anywhere), three whole days off, then the morning travelling back to work. Then there is still another day off available mid cycle to catch up at home.

AAOMMMMOOO is best!!
AAOMMNNSOO not too bad either

AC has a much more social drinking pattern as well, with pile out to pub after 2nd morning and a full day to sober up before the nights (don't tell anybody that ATCOs sometimes drink though).

[Ahh-40612]

Applycrapheap - or what ever you call yourself.

You must be one of the passengers at Latcc with minimal or crap sector validations that mean the rest of us useful types get SHAFTED EVERY PM duty and EVERY set of NIGHT DUTIES.

I think the TC system is marginally better than the AC system, subject to what set of spins or nights you are rostered for.
Personally couldn't give a monkeys either way.

Come next year then just remember that Captain Qwerty and his aliens from Planet ORO will have to find all the resources to run the Nerc system.
The Chisholm 60 might eventually arrive by bus from whereever they have been hiding.
Or is it true that they may have counted the NTT twice????!!

At Nerc there will be T only people, P only, single sector only etc etc etc.
This all means that any versatile people would be in the frame for permanent nights - I can't see any other way for it to be done unless we do away with all spinners.

Who will police the correct nights/spins ratio??

Could the ORO cope with a change of roster - history says NO.

Mind you they will have the chance to increase their own staffing and move into the spacious ACR room when we all troop off to the seaside.

I am planning to use the Latcc Charter to apply for Voluntary Redundancy as it appears to me that the operational staff are about to be victimised/discriminated against if all the deadwood is allowed to depart with their wheelbarrows full of dosh.

It used to be a rewarding and fulfilling job - now self-preservation is the rule.
:confused: :confused: :mad: :mad:

[eyeinthesky]

I have also worked both rosters, and would opt for 6 on 4 off any time. The middle day off on the other system is no good to anybody: you get home at 2330 and then have to be in bed early the next night to be ready to get up at 0515. It's a complete waste of time, except of course for those who have already mentioned the appeal for the drinking time. OK so starting at 1400 instead of 0700 on the first day of a cycle may seem nice, but that morning is dead time when you can't get anything real done. I would far rather have 4 days off at the end. The nights/sleep day issue is a red herring. If, as I have just done, you work a double night then of course you need a full day at least to recover. Then I would rather have 3 more days than just 2.

I suppose it is one of those issues upon which you will never get 100% agreement. Best thing is to have a vote. None of this daft 60/40 requirement this time either. If 51/49 is good enough for the pay deal it's good enough for this.

[U R NumberOne]

Going to a five watch system has been a big issue with us over recent months and is going ahead in a couple of weeks. We held a unit wide vote among the ATCOs and the response was overwhelmingly in favour of 6 and 4 instead of 2-1-4-3. Next months roster looks good, so we'll see how things work out over the coming months as at a unit of 60+ ATCOs it is a major change for a lot of people.

[rubicon]

what about when we work double nights and have to struggle all the way home in heavy traffic..this happens to all watches every cycle at LATCC.

[Father Dougal]

Hi Rubicon,

I agree that a long drive home after your second night shift (or first for that matter) is not pleasant - for LATCC or any other unit. But what's your point? Two night shifts occur on more or less every roster pattern worked in NATS.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: Father Dougal ]