Formation Flying, What is the secret.......?

[BRL]

Hi all. Over the last few weeks or so I have watched, like many of us here, the odd air display. The formation flying always gets me, flying that close(or so it seems) looks amazing.

I have often wondered how you guys work it out. What is the briefing like before you go up, do you have a mark on the other plane to keep track on it(I remeber seeing a Concorde with flo-yellow marks on it and found out later it was for the Red Arrows to make it easier to stay in formation with it).

How much training do you need? Also, watched a 4 ship Yak formation go overhead on Saturday afternoon and they looked soooooo close. Are you when in the air, 'stepped' apart, I.E. at the same level or a few feet higher than the next guy to make it look from the ground that you are really that close to each other?.

Are there golden rules to this kind of flying? I am just curious really, as I said earlier, it always impresses me when I see close flying like that.

(p.s. if anyone is going in formation over the next few weeks and want some human ballast, then let us know......) :)

Cheers all. :)

[Rallye Driver]

I've just been doing some training to be able to take part in the flypast at North Weald on Sunday.

I did three training session - two of two hours and a third of an hour to get the basics - over three days, with extensive ground school and briefings as well. That is definitely the minimum I would say, and I'm still not really comfortable with getting as close as I should be, but that will come with more practice. On the day we all had experienced safety pilots along for the ride.

For the Bulldog/Pup, the visual cues are - in line with spinner and wingtip of aircraft you are formating on, and your wingtip in line with his rudder. In the little diagram in the training manual this looks fine, until you try to do it.

Of course the instructors make it look so easy, when you are being shown the ropes.

The secret seems to be keeping the ball in the centre and making lots of little adjustments to power and attitude. It's more a question of anticipation - as soon as you take power off, it should be going on again, otherwise you start dropping behind and having to make larger inputs, which make it even harder to stabilise you position.

When you turn, of course it gets even harder, as if you are on the outside you have to go up, while remainig on station, on the inside you go down. Still haven't really cracked that, and all my turns were on the outside on Sunday! You can't use much aileron, otherwise you star turning in towards the other aircraft, which is not good news - so it is mostly achieve by power adjustments and elevators and rudder - this is where the secondary effects of the controls becomes very noticable.

The stepping is partly to give an escape route if something goes wrong and also to avoid wingtip vortices and wake turbulence. I was shown what happens if you get in the way of these. The aircraft was literally thrown out to one side.

Having done the basics, I now appreciate just how skilled the experts are. I know the Reds use perspective to create some of their effects, so that they are actually not as close as it appears on th epposition passes.

It is certainly NOT something to try without training, as things can go pearshaped very quickly indeed.

I'm just a tyro. Trust we'll get some input on this thread from the experts, who will hopefully point out where I'm getting it wrong, or more tips about getting it right.

RD 'Blue 3' :ok:

[AerBabe]

I trust you will be calling yourself 'Blue 3' next time you call me up in the tower? :p
I imagine that the type of aircraft and the airspeed make a huge difference to how easy formation flying is. Presumably heavier aircraft and jets are more stable? I'm not sure I would want to get two microlights too close!

[stiknruda]

Are there golden rules to this kind of flying? asked BRL

1 get some quality tuition
2 brief on every eventuality before you go and do it
3 only do it with folk who've had quality training AND are current
4 keep practicing

Pitts2112 and myself are working up for our formation aero display DA - the secret is practice!


Stik

[Flyin'Dutch']

Talk to some professionals.

Ultimate High is one outfit that specialises in providing quality tuition.

FD

[BRL]

Thanks all. I will try and get hold of one of the UH blokes when next at Goodwood for a chat. They make it look so easy but reading this so far the pilots must be constantly changing height/power etc all the time. I take it there is no time for looking at the view outside of the window.

I am not thinking of doing any at all, just curious to what is going on in the air in formation, briefings etc... :)

[stiknruda]

BRL

Lead - well his job is to lead

No2 (and subsequent wingmen) - all they have to do:D is to follow lead.

When I'm #2 - I station keep using references that wil keep my aeroplane in exactly the same position relative to Lead's. (There is a bit of cheating, err...masking, encouraged to accentuate the poetry in some trail-ing or opposing figures.)

When I'm #2 I don't generally have time to check the balance ball (that is done by feel) and I spend all my time jockeying the throttle to remain in station. I can't do T's and P's as I'm 100% committed not to break formation or shake hands with Lead. My eyes remain glued to Lead's trailing edge and a couple of aircraft specific references that enable me to play 3D shadow!

When I'm #2 I have total trust in Lead and follow him blindly

When I'm Lead - I am responsible for the safety, navigation and radio work for the pair of us. I look out for the two aircraft

When I'm Lead - I fly the maneouver in a way that will allow #2 to remain on station.

When I'm Lead - the success of the airshow is solely down to where I position the aircaft.

Tough job, not for the faint of heart and very few actually realise how draining it is. Civvy UK teams (Aerostars, Yakolevs) are amongst the best in the world, the Red Arrows - well 'nuff said:ok:


Stik

[BRL]

Excellent post mate, good stuff, cheers.. :)

[DubTrub]

I'm sure Messrs Cubin et al at UH can indeed provide excellent tuition.

Are there also any acknowledged texts that one can refer to for initial guidance?

I am sure that these might be slightly cheaper for the ab initio expectant formation pilot before one involves the bank manager.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Having been the happy subject of an introduction to formation flying by UH I can report that they do a thorough ground briefing pre and post flight.

They discuss the basic theoretical principles and emphasize safety throughout the day.

No doubt there are tomes to be found which will enhance your theoretical knowledge but for a practical matter like this formation flying lark there is no substitute for practise.

The principles are not particularly taxing, unfortunately the same can not be said for the real stuff.

As Stik said the lookout has to be done by the lead as you keep your eyes glued to your reference points on his aircraft.

No need to go and talk to them other than to book the flights

Found it a very satisfying way to convert the readies into a broad aviation smile, and what an experience!

Go for it.

FD

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ahh, great fun.

I did a formation endorsement many moons ago with two mates in C152s...not the best choice of aircraft due blind spots/high wing/low powered.

I'd have to go and dig out logbook #1 to see how long it took but we did the whole lot. Started off with formation S&L, then climbing descending/climbing descending turns and ended up doing formation circuits and bumps.

It's amazingly hard work in underpowered airraft with light wing loading...not so hard in powerfull/heavier/faster aircraft.

Lead does all ATC communication/nav etc...2 & 3 &...just follow lead. When following you NEVER remove your eyes from the aircraft on which you are formated (not necesarily lead)

Position is held with power, elevator and rudder...don't use aileron in close or your perspective changes and it looks like you are going up and down rather than closer/wider. You can see this by holding your hands in the time honoured fighter pilot fashion and rotate the following one and imagine what it does to the perspective as opposed to moving in and out of formation 'flat'.

Turning is fun...outside aircraft travels along a wider arc so needs more power to accelerate aircraft while maintaining position...inner aircraft is the opposite...this was what made circuits and bumps so hard in the C152s...particularly turning from upwind to crosswind without stalling if you were the inside aircraft or falling back if you were the outside aircraft...took some thoughtfull planning/flying from whichever of us was 'Scumbag 1':}

Takeoffs and landings while looking only at lead were interesting, as is changing configuration by feel rather than looking for the flap lever etc.

You end up each session with a stiff neck and right hand/fingers:ok:

As for how close? We were generally overlapped wing tips (just) but spaced about a foot down/abeam horizontal stab to due wingtip votices...occasionally you'd find yourself holding station with some aileron due to the votices if you got a smidgeon out. Generally speaking closer is easier...that way you fly as one aeroplane. Obviously the further apart you are the greater the differences in power required in turns.

Helluva lot of fun.

[Tinstaafl]

Oz requires a 'Formation Endorsement' in order to be a pilot flying as part of a formation. Like Chuckles, I did my endorsement in C152s.

It's like he says: The light wing loading/low power doesn't make it easy. My hat's off to those who do it in Tiger Moths & the like!

The lack of power means it's difficult to maintain position during manoeuvres eg in a turn the outer a/c has to not only accelerate but also climb (to remain in the same plane relative to the lead a/c as during S&L.

The inner a/c has to lose altitude & decelerate to remain in the same relative position while on the inside of the turn then accelerate & climb when the turn is finished.

The lead has to remain cognizant of the performance limitations of the trailing a/c and also allow more room & time for the formation to manoeuvre.

Touch & go's (goes?) are interesting too. The lead can't use full power or those in trail won't have a performance reserve to use to maintain position. Also during landing the lead has to aim a bit further in to leave some room for the trailing a/c.

I always enjoyed changing positions within the formation. That's fun & takes a degree of coordination to do smoothly. A bit like basic aerobatics in the coordination demands I thought.

It's easier to fly formation, I think, in similar performance types. I once had to do it in a Bonanza + C150 while a camera crew filmed the C150 through the removed rear doors. That was awkward because the C150 guy wasn't experienced with formation flying so it worked out best for him to concentrate on S&L while I did the positioning around him.

Oh, and to answer BRL's question, the 'secret' is to know the lateral, longitudinal & vertical reference points for the a/c type, recognise deviations WRT those points & know what's an appropriate correction. Just like any other aspect of flying!

[BEagle]

We teach formation flying in PA28s using mostly a military-style course. About 5 hours including a solo flight if the student reaches the required standard. We start with a pair, then increase to a 3-ship or 4-ship depending upon how many students wish to be on the course. Pairs and stream take-offs, pairs and stream landings, basic station keeping, formation changes from echelon to line astern and back to echelon plus vic - and box, swan and finger 4 if we're flying a 4-ship, culminating in 4-ship visual run-in and break.

Great fun - but NOT for poseurs or show-offs. A disciplined approach is essential!

[tmmorris]

BEagle - where are your courses based?

What's the minimum experience level at which I'd be likely to benefit from the course? I'm not planning on regular formation flying at all, but would like to be able to say I'd done it and knew how to...

Tim

[Dan Winterland]

The UH guys make it look easy 'cos they've been doing it for years. If you are planning learning how to formation fly, get proper instruction, practice until you are profficient and stay current. Nothing else is safe. I've heard people say they've had a go without instruction on this forum. Don't! It's akin to DIY surgery - except the results can be messier. I've had numerous unexpected and unwelcome close events formation flying, and one actual collision. And this is with people who were professionals.

tmmorris - A PM to BEagle should give you all the answers.

BEagle - I'm around for a bit in Sept / Oct if you need an instructor for a course.

[skydriller]

When you guys talk about Formation flying I take it you mean a few feet/meters (say 15 feet/5m or closer) separation? Im wondering if those that say they have tried formation flying without instruction are talking about closing to maybe fifty/a hundred or so feet away from another aeroplane S&L for a few photos/wave hello etc. Its just that I have indeed flown close-ish with another aeroplane like this, and dont consider what we did dangerous, but like I say Im not talking about overlapping wingtips/blue angels stuff here!!!

Regards, SD..

[sycamore]

BRL, et al,
There`s a lot of good info.been put on this thread about formation flying, with the main points about getting good training in the very first instance.
There are also a few " DANGEROUS" practices that are to be avoided, until one has a wide experience of formation;

a) Don`t ever go overlapping/behind/above/below wing-tips, or using x-controls as a moments inattention will end in tears.That is too close, and even the vortices off light aircraft, coupled with poor roll-control power can pitch/roll you inwards to collide with wings/tail.....!!!

b) Don`t go up alongside another a/c to wave "hello"; it`s illegal ,unless you have had a briefing etc,and are doing it as a planned photo sortie,as people tend to over-react, and can collide, if you and the other crew are not trained/experienced, as air-to-air photography is another skill best left to professionals.

Having said all that, there are several places to go and have the training,such as Compton Abbas, Kemble, and NWeald..:cool:

[BRL]

BTTT for referance regarding the post 'Formation/Close flying...........

[Classic]

Position is held with power, elevator and rudder...don't use aileron in close or your perspective changes

Sure you use aileron to control your lateral position. The idea is to maintain the references and to use tiny roll inputs where necessary to keep the spacing correct. Rudder just makes life difficult in a light aircraft due to the significant secondary effect, and in a fast jet it just does very little indeed.