Asiana B744 vs. SWA B737 @ LAX

[Continuous Ignition]

This sounds like this would wake you up and take notice!! I doubt it could be blamed on bad wx or could it?

Anyone have more info on the incident?

See NTSB Report here (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040830X01323&key=1)

[ArcticTurn]

Continuous,

According to our union safety committee, the LAX tower had cleared SWA into position AND also had cleared Asiana to land on the same runway.

AT

[The Greaser]

182 pax/crew on a -700, sounds a bit unlikely to me.

[Continuous Ignition]

ArcticTurn,
Yikes! If true, thats reassuring!

Greaser,
Yeah I questioned that as well... Our seating on all except the -200 and -500 is 137 pax + operating crew and j/s'ers.

[ferris]

Preliminary information indicates that the captain of the Asiana Boeing 747 identified the runway conflict and executed a missed approach. You may want to alter your post, wiz.

[Taikonaut]

Careful...assumption has killed many...

Please note that many of the Asiana Captains are round eye type. And as Ferris quoted from the NTSB report. Asiana captain did identify the conflict and executed the miss...looks by the book to me.

If you are not familiar with ops at LAX, it's not uncommon to have an aircraft lifting off at the departure end while one is touching down on the approach end. Or traffic departing on 25L and landing on 6L simultaneously!

They will also clear you to land with an aircraft rolling or about to roll on the runway.

[MAStake]

It's a sad day for aviation when the possibility of an incident is based on whether a pilot has round eyes or slant eyes.

[Wizofoz]

Yep,

Fired from the hip,

Sorry.

[yazman]

Press report (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/peninsula/9552457.htm?1c) (which seems reasonably well informed for a change) suggests ATC confusion during shift change.

Discussion on another BB states both crews recognised the conflict and took avoiding actions, which differs from the account in the above (although the 'abort' could have been given simultaneously).

[SaturnV]

The NTSB has prepared a Windows Media video simulation of this near collision at LAX. The simulation includes cockpit and tower audio.

From the NTSB website:
The animation shows a near collision between Southwest Airlines Flight 440, a Boeing 737, in position for takeoff on runway 24L, and Asiana Airlines Flight 204, a Boeing 747, preparing to land. Asiana 204 aborts landing procedures and overflies Southwest 440.

The animation includes audio, and was developed from flight recorder and Air Traffic Control (ATC) radar and communication recordings. The position time history of the Boeing 737 was derived from flight recorder information, while the position time history of the Boeing 747 was derived from ATC radar data. The recorded data were time synchronized and the position time histories correlated to a high-resolution image of the Los Angeles Airport and surrounding area.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2004/LAX04IA302/LAX_ani.htm

[filejw]

Looks like some people learn from others misfortune.Didn't a 737 land on a Metro III about 12 yrs ago on this same runway?

[ironbutt57]

Yes sure did at night USAir vs Skywest..1991:ugh:

[tightcircuit]

An excerpt from the North America brief in one of my manuals:

"Landing Clearance: Expect to receive landing clearance with one or more a/c still ahead of you. The clearance you are receiving is to land in sequence if it is safe to do so."

It is not mentioned if the same applies in the case of an a/c cleared to line up or take off ahead of you but I have experienced that at Ft Lauderdale. I was cleared to line up ahead of an a/c already cleared to land. The controller then warned the landing traffic what was happenning without altering his clearance.

Perhaps some of our North American colleagues can shed a little light?

[Feather #3]

I believe that the limitation at LAX is that now they can only clear two successive a/c to land. Once upon a time it was virtually automatic when you came on the TWR frequency!

G'day ;)

[cactusbusdrvr]

The rules WERE changed after the USAir accident. Before that incident you were cleared to land without being told of the traffic on the runway in position. Now you are supposed to be told of who's there and what type, i.e. " Asiana cleared to land 24 left Southwest 737 in position". Southwest should have heard: "Southwest position and hold 24L traffic 747 on 4 mile final." Also, LAX local controllers were not clearing you into position on the runway with a long delay on the runway before takeoff but that has changed back in the last year. I HATE sitting in position on the runway for a long time. My seat cushion starts to get sucked up my @@@ the longer I sit exposed.

KLAX and all the other high volume airports will continue to have these incidents as long as they try to put 10 lbs into a 5 lbs sack.
For the most part ATC does a great job but it only takes a small loss of situational awareness to create an incident or an accident.

[eal401]

According to the Boeing website, the max capacity of the 737-700 is 149. Surprised the NTSB would get such a basic fact wrong.

[Avman]

Folks, if you read all these preliminary NTSB accident/incident reports you'll find quite a few typos. This was probably one. Likely to be 128 instead of 182. But, does this matter? The real source of concern is, for me, poor - accident prone - US ATC procedures designed to expedite traffic at the expense of reducing safety standards!!!

[ironbutt57]

Not too sure it's "designed to expedite traffic" more like COPE with it....flew lots of years in places like that, and see just as many snafu's in places with half the traffic...:cool:

[Huck]

Why wasn't the whale gonna land on the outboard (24R)?

During the one blessed year that I was a widebody captain, I had one firm rule - I made all the landings on the north side of LAX. That place can go haywire quicker than anywhere.

[safetypee]

The incident report, highlighted by the video, is very frightening; it begs the question what if …

What if the 737 commenced take off shortly after the 747 started a GA.
E.g 747 at 1 nm, say 150 kts GS (2.5 nm/min), it would loose contact with 737 almost immediately (downward view < 15 deg during GA). 747 at the threshold at +24 sec, and at 1 nm along runway at 48 sec elapsed time, altitude xxx ft.

737 starts takeoff at (say) +12 sec, lift off at +36 sec, climb to xxx ft by 48 sec elapsed time, approx 1 nm from threshold.

Same way, same place, same altitude, both a/c blind to each other!!!!

Did any of the management ask “what if” the standard ATC procedures failed?

[Astra driver]

It is common practice for LAX controllers to simutaneously clear an aircraft to land on 24R while another takes off on 24L. I suspect that the controller thought that was what they had done.

It is interesting to note that the USair/Skywest collision occured on this exact runway only it was at night. I thought that after that accident controllers were no longer allowed to put aircraft into "Position and hold" (Line up and wait?) during night hours, yet I have been cleared to do just that many times in recent years. Perhaps this is a case of lessons not learned.