Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA

[Danny]

It must surely never be the intention of a reasonable employer to censure free debate amongst its employees, of terms, conditions and potential union representation. Therefore, this thread WILL continue along those lines and those lines alone.

This post is to advise readers of the current position of PPRuNe with regard to the temporarily withdrawn thread regarding Ryanair, as well as opening a channel for debate to be carried out under specific conditions.

Firstly, the removed thread is still under review by PPRuNe and it remains our intention to return it to the public domain once it has been ensured that anything which leaves PPRuNe open to legal action has been removed or edited. Unfortunately, due to personal circumstances, I have little access to the Internet at the moment and I am only able to view the thread, and assess it, on an opportunity basis. Please be assured that it will return, and will in all probability be merged with this and other threads to ensure that the full story about Ryanair and BALPA/IALPA, as well as the interface with PPRuNe, becomes known.

You may use this thread to continue the debate and the flow of information about these issues. The following guidelines however, MUST be adhered to when making a post.

1. Please make sure that posts stick only to the issues detailed below.
2. Do not engage in immature rants or point scoring. Certainly, do not lower yourself to imitating the behaviour of anyone that disagrees with you or is from the opposite camp.
3. Post in a constructive, calm, and considered manner. There is no need for partisan, colourful, and abusive language to make your point. Let your reasoned arguments make your point for you, not your emotion.
4. Please keep your posts to factual information. For example, it would be appropriate to discuss letters which staff have received which might be construed as bullying or harassment, the perceived erosion of terms and conditions, the tactics and methods being used by Ryanair or indeed BALPA/IALPA, differing contracts for different pilot groups, and planned fleet changes. This list is not exhaustive, but indicates things that are probably solid knowledge to those involved and are worthy of a reasoned debate and exchange of information and views.
5. Do not make personal accusations, particularly involving the private lives of any of the players. See point 3 for tips on how to make your argument.
6. If engaging in discussion about an airline's safety record, then please ensure that it involves only known and published incidents. Speculation or interpolation is not only possibly painting an untrue picture, it can also be damaging to the airline and its reputation. Most of important of all, it can be distressing to the crews, who will always be striving to do their jobs in the safest manner possible. Remember that the first person to arrive at the scene of an air accident will always be the pilots! Self-preservation makes a safe operation a very high priority for anyone flying.

Whilst PPRuNe is, after all, only a "collection of anonymous scribbles on a toilet wall," and thus in all probability worthless and a waste of time (according to the CEO of a Low Cost Irish airline), it is interesting that people in this industry do occasionally see it as a threat and will take steps to try and stifle debate where possible. By sticking to the guidance given above, PPRuNe hopes that we will not provide anyone with a legal reason to prevent the issues being discussed. Please bear this in mind and note that any post not complying with our advice will be subject to immediate removal without recourse to an explanation. Anything we think or feel may put PPRuNe under legal threat, we reserve the right to remove at our sole behest.

PPRuNe appreciates your co-operation, as well as your literary contributions, to help make this industry a strong and healthy one no matter what the hardships that are placed upon it and those who work in it. Ryanair management will no doubt agree with the right of their workers to free association, which we are facilitating with the caveats previously mentioned.

On a final note, and I haven't seen this published anywhere else yet, it has been rumoured that Ryanair have finalised a deal with a US company to take all their -200 series B737's starting with immediate effect. The last aircraft to leave the fleet are supposed to be the Dublin based aircraft and it is expected that they will be gone by May 2005. How this information will affect those long standing pilots based in Dublin is anyone's guess but with the alleged threat of no conversions to the -800 unless they ditch the idea of unionisation, may well put extra pressure on them.

[atse]

I would like to pay tribute to Danny and his team for their efforts. It cannot be pleasant to have been on the receiving end of this. However simple such matters may appear to some of us, the reality is that this kind of action is enough to give any wise person pause for careful thought. That, of course, is its intention – to censor and frighten, and in so doing to demonstrate to the faint-hearted the nature of power.

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind everybody that what has happened is typical of the kind of organisational behaviour described and anticipated in the – now missing – thread (which had around 118,000 hits when it disappeared).

The seriousness of the issues which face everybody was decisively underlined by these developments.

Regrettably this will not be the last such action. What has happened demonstrates two things conclusively; firstly, the seriousness of the challenge now facing ALL pilots and, secondly, the risks that are involved for a particular group of pilots. For that group, namely the Ryanair pilots, there are risks associated with both action AND inaction. They are all going to have to decide what they want to do.

However, has it crossed anyone’s mind yet that this little event may well be a gift? A gift in that it demonstrates for slow learners the very behaviour that causes so many problems for Ryanair staff, and a gift in that it clarifies for everyone the stakes and importance of the decisions and actions to be taken by Ryanair pilots in the weeks to come. It also tells us that somebody is running scared of the evident rebellion.

Expect more threats, but ...

Never was a challenge so clear.

Courage and steadfastness.

Join and deny.

Hold the Line!




As a contribution to the factual side of this matter, here is the well known quote from a Ryanair memo issued in Stansted this summer:

"We have no objection to any Ryanair pilot joining BALPA, the Taliban, the Monster Raving Loonies or indeed the Moonies. Each individual is perfectly free to join whatever organization he/she so chooses."
This outlines the official Ryanair position, which has been repeated on many occasions by different company representatives. However ... can anyone provide information, etc. that suggests a very different orientation by Ryanair. (For example, the memo to Dublin pilots?).

[Shaman]

If you stand up to a bully now he is unlikely to threaten you in the future.

If you give in now then he knows what to do with you next time.

[trainer too 2]

As one who voted with his feet may I comment BALP/IALPA in helping everybody in RYR. It was a great company to work for and a great start in the Jet market for me pity that it was not a good company to stay with in the long term . :{

It is a pity that Danny has to go through all this hassle.

Thanks Danny the fact that RYR sees Pprune as a threat is a great compliment to the power of Pprune! :ok:

[captaink]

Just want to say good luck to all Ryanair pilots seeking help under the ALPA. I´ve learned the hard way what might happen when you choose to work without any union protection.

The later 3-4 years I am supporting my union guys because no one else will ever, ever be interested in supporting me.

Again, good luck - I will be supporting you guys wherever and whenever I got the opportunity.

Sincerely.

[chikenscanfly]

Danny, and ofcourse the towers at PPRune,

Youre recent action in re-instating a forum in which to discuss issues at RYR will be doubtlessly seen as welcome relief amongst RYR staff.

Surely with the threat of censorship, more people will find it in themselves to post without fear. I refer to ATSE's statement of Ryanair's official position...So we should therefore not be worried about whom we join or whom we speak to.

Everyone, please follow Danny's guidelines...two can play at their game.


Regarding the Dublin pilots with the unconfirmed rumours about the removal of the 200 fleet, it would seem plausable that MOL could be planning to retrench most of the more senior pilots whose vote this coming October seems obvious, and replace them with new pilots who would feel detached from this decision, therefore voting against recognition or not voting at all.

Using the 200 to 800 conversion as an excuse would in this case be an excellent means of doing the above said.


Again, this is my own personal speculation, and is not based on any facts or rumours. But it seems somewhat clear if you put one and one together.

Perhaps the more appropriate form of action for the pilot body to take is to join BALPA or IALPA now.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there an automatic vote which is passed with immediate effect once over 75% of the pilot body become associated?

Clarification on this query would be greatly appreciated, as would any comment on the above stated theory.

[bacardi walla]

Removing the -200's from the fleet with immediate effect could also be a wind up. I wouldn't put anything past the MOL.

[won too goh]

It is time to restart this thread. the old one was far too long

Thank you unnamed ceo of unnamed Irish airline

I am amazed by the lack of new post

KEEP THE FAITH

[chikenscanfly]

Theres another thread, "Ryanair, more free publicity", where Sergeblanco has recently posted an interesting new rumour - again rumour alone and with anything on this forum who knows their origins...

[i_need_cider]

Anyone who knows dub will tell you that the A pier which fr use is only capable of holding 5 800's at one time(stands 8,9,10,13 and either 19 or 20). If its true will this mean a big cutback on dub flights

[Wino]

I missed the beginnings of this fight but a couple of points that bear out for ALL union fights.

Whether or not you like Ryan Air, it is the duty of all pilots to support THEIR pilots, and its the duty of all crews to support their crews.. If you feel that they are a cancer on the industry, operate to fast or whatever other gripes you may have about them, the ONLY way the anything can be changed anything is via a strong union.

If you feel that Ryanair may be hurting your airline, supporting the PILOTS of Ryanair will help to level the playing field. (Upward pressure in one groups compensation always has a similar effect across the industry, just as downward compensation pressures have a like effect across the industry, just witness the current race to the bottom amongs the US majors in pay)

So no matter what Anyone thinks, the pilots and crews and employees of RYANAIR need to be supported and assisted in doing anything that can improve their terms.

If you aren'[t supporting the pilots of Ryanair then you either don't know which side your bread is really buttered on, or you aint an airline employee (you could of course be management, but generally those are a worthless lot anyway).

If there is union busting activity going on at RYanair, it needs to be trumpted far and wide, loud and clear and any pressure available needs to be brought to bear. If you happen to be pumping fuel on a Ryan air jet, Relax, step out for a fag, take your time. Pump that gas a little slower. Cleaning the plane? Make sure its very clean, infact you better go over it twice. Are you a contract ramp rat marshalling the plane in, Make sure the ramp is clear. Infact, hold that jet a sec, you better check for FOD... You can never be too safe.

Cheers
Wino

[Agaricus bisporus]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have no objection to any Ryanair pilot joining BALPA, the Taliban, the Monster Raving Loonies or indeed the Moonies. Each individual is perfectly free to join whatever organization he/she so chooses."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But if they dare even consider it they can forget about any chance of promotion or base transfers!

What does European law on Employment or on Human Rights have to say about this? It cannot possibly be legal.

[Ranger One]

Danny,

1. Good luck.

2. Practically the first rule of bullying is, take your victim somewhere private to do the bullying. Don't do it in front of everyone. The bully who discovers that everyone is in fact watching is likely to desist.

I can only surmise from your post that some legal bullying of pprune is underway, from a quarter which I'm sure we can all guess at.

With point 2. above in mind, I humbly suggest and submit that any and all correspondance relating to this matter should be posted publically to this thread immediately.

Like vampires, bullys tend to shrivel when exposed to glaring light.

Nil Carborundum.

R1

[ecj]

Chickenscanfly:

Under UK employment law, Union recognition is possible when 50% plus one, of that group of workers join the Union .

The 75% figure may relate to the percentage of workers the Union would like to see as members before the recognition process is moved forward.

Southwest worked well with Union involvment. It can work if both parties take a mature approach to the "partnership".

[flaps to 60]

On a final note, and I haven't seen this published anywhere else yet, it has been rumoured that Ryanair have finalised a deal with a US company to take all their -200 series B737's starting with immediate effect. The last aircraft to leave the fleet are supposed to be the Dublin based aircraft and it is expected that they will be gone by May 2005. How this information will affect those long standing pilots based in Dublin is anyone's guess but with the alleged threat of no conversions to the -800 unless they ditch the idea of unionisation, may well put extra pressure on them.

Simple!

Drop the "idea" of I/BALPA untill June 2005 if the above is true, it's not that far away.

The article in the Travel section of the Sunday Times was not a glowing indicment of FR and proves that not all publicity is good and how far the majors have fought back. For about £1 extra you could fly to Milan on BA with 23kg of baggage from an airport which is much easier to get to to an airport much closer and get fed and watered on the way.

As opossed to flying from a remote airport which cost alot more to get to for most of the cathcment are of London to an airport 35kms away meaning an even more expensive journey into town plus around £15 for two sandwiches and a drink for a couple on holiday.

Years ago i remember seeing a programme on the B777 with Mullally talking to some of the workers in the canteen. He was chating about United airlines buying the 777 and the CEO being interested in the Price of the aircraft and not the Cost. He is not interested in how much it cost Boeing but only in what price he will pay.

More and more passengers are weighing up the total expenditure for a low cost flight and certainly in my experience it costs more to go low cost. When the SLF start adding up the extras maybe they might start thinking that "Ummm yes nice cheap flight but i've had to pay more than the cost of the flight for excess baggage or such like". The down side to this is that at some stage people are going to go back to the majors and the LCC boys will suffer and consequently so will jobs.

I have the greatest respect for the FR pilots because you work in a pressure cooker that most could not and though i hate unions i firmly believe you should join one as i have because this industry is up ****e creek without a paddle and we need some protection from predetary management who only believe in share price and therefore their share options.

Is it time for directors to be paid a wage based upon the profit of the company rather than what the city believes the company is worth and share the profits along with the workers.

That bloody nose that a certain CEO has taken may turn into a 10 second count but they cant see that even the best pugilists know to stay down when beat or at least throw the towel in and be big enough to admit defeat.

Stand your ground lads but continue with the dignity that so far you have displayed as opposed to others in some quarters.

Good luck

[JBR]

...and though i hate unions i firmly believe you should join one as i have because this industry is up ****e creek without a paddle and we need some protection from predetary management...

Well, that's why we have unions so why do you hate them...?? :confused:

[Faire d'income]

Looks like they've reached the Rubicon at FR.

Good luck, you and your families have my full support.

To those who feel they are damned if they do, might I suggest you are doomed if you don't. You have no choice with that man.

[Ranger One]

Wonder if MOL will enjoy this:

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/

Supposed to open for business tomorrow.

R1

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Some more details on that web site from the BBC here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3612948.stm). Seems whatever anti Union actions Ryanair is trying it is having the opposite effect to what they hoped.

[nighthopper]

Dear All,

I was employed by Ryanair in the 1980’s when SIPTU tried a similar method to get staff to join the union They placed flyers in staff files encouraging them to join the union as this would be a solution to all their problems. This generated a large amount of discussion amongst the staff however it was widely believed that this tactic was more to protect the working conditions of staff in the national airline than a concern over the working conditions in Ryanair. Now as an outside observer I wonder if similar tactics are behind the current campaign. Are trade organisations more concerned with upholding working practices in other airlines than their concern about an individual airline? Is the industry really going to benefit from this concerted campaign?

On this forum there appears to be a belief that the SLF do not know the full impact of choosing an LCC when they book their flight. This is a dangerous misconception. When I book a flight I look at all the options as do most of the people I know. Price, destination, baggage allowance, in-flight service, safety all comes in to play then my decision is made. All this is done from the comfort of my home through the Internet.

The staff in Ryanair and all airlines will make their decision based on personal circumstances not perceived working conditions and comments made by people who have never worked in their company. Many of my previous colleagues have gone on to have very successful careers both within Ryanair and more in other companies.

If this is a global fight to protect the conditions of all airline personnel then declare this as the objective. Do not treat your customers with contempt and believe that they do not make an informed choice when booking a flight. There may come a time when conditions imposed by an airline are unattractive that SLF will not use them. So far I do not believe that this watershed has been reached although it may be coming close.

Good luck to all, safe flying and my we the SLF of this world continue to have the ability to choose the carrier, type of service and destination that has opened up the world of travel.

[sergeblanco]

nighthopper,a few good points there.but as someone who now works in fr,we have now no choice left to us but to join and strive for union recognition,the reasons.

when we retire,we have no pension plan - what to live on then?

We will have no loss of licence.well you can say go get it somewhere else.it was part of our working agreement.

we pay for our uniforms - not my choice to wear the uniform,i would prefer slacks and a shirt,so why pay for it.

we pay for our transport to and from the sim. and accomodation while there.

we can be dismissed at the drop of a pin.

we cannot negotiate anything or even complain if hard done by.

we are threatened with paying for our sim recurrency,twice a year when the state requires but one check a year.

we pay for our own medical checks and do them on our day off.

all other conditions are gradually being eroded.


why do we do this to fund the low fares that people like your good self enjoy,might be a little unfair.i have no problem with cheap flights but not at the expense of my family.
should you have an alternative to the union,i am all ears.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

There's an interesting article in today's Guardian.

[Cyrano]

That'd be this Guardian article. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1293920,00.html)

[captaink]

Looks like the struggle are really taking off:

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/

[dallas dude]

MOL often compares his airline to the original LCC, Southwest.

It may surpirise some to learn that Southwest is THE MOST UNIONISED airline in the US.

MOL will waste precious millions attempting to subtly deny the opportunity for his pilots to unionise.

Bullies only rule through fear. Once the fear is gone, so will he be.

THIS, IMO, is why he's so terrified of the FR pilots.

If you don't hang together you will surely be hung seperately (as a famous founding father once said).

dd

[sergeblanco]

the comparison between ryanair and southwest is just that they are both lcc's.thats where it ends.

to quote dave o'brien from our recent management briefing sessions,"we are nothing like southwest,i have been over there on a few occasions and they are typical looney americans,having ticker tape parties through the office and hugging each other".

Edited in line with the above guidelines. Admin.

[brabazon]

I wonder if anyone from Southwest has visited Ryanair to see how they have managed to achieve lower break even load factors and higher operating ratios? Maybe through using larger aircraft and with denser seating with less spent on selling tickets and more revenue through ancillary services? Mind you I'm not sure if M O'L's customer service ideas would go down well in the US!

[chikenscanfly]

customers would have sued MOL in the US ages ago...

I like how DOB called the southwest people raving looney americans...

sure, like in Dublin we tend to keep things to a hate-hate relationship, and feel this breeds better employee satisfaction and performance...

atl;east ahtas how things appear to come over at the receiving end of the stick.

With the ITF chasing up MOL's heels, one wonders how much longer he's going to last before he cracks and takes the next step

[birdbrain]

Not sure how the low fares airline can call itself that... !
I've just picked a sample flight from Ireland to Spain for 4 adults.
three carriers - 1 European 2 Irish.
1 Irish fare = €735 all in
1 low cost Irish fare = €1223 all in :{
1 European Major = £ 684 GBP all in

So who's kidding who ??? :rolleyes:

Pull together people you're being ripped off along with 'unassuming' SLF and piggy in th middle is laughing all the way to th bank !:uhoh:

[chikenscanfly]

TCS

Management in an airport will always try to cut back on things...the difference is in RYR if you dont like, leave.

someone got fired because they decided to question the new policy on no crew water onboard airplanes? too bad...take it or leave it.

If anyone mentions even considering blowing thigns at RYR out into the open they are shown the door. The company is know to even retrench cabin crew once they reach a certain service time because they then start costing the company too much.

this is not rumour. It is well known in the company as a fact.

Grant yourself lucky that in SWA you have the choice of going to union if you wish

[Runway 31]

I have followed this and the other anti-Ryanair threads with great interest and what I cannot work out is, if things are so bad why are all these posters still working with Ryanair?.

I would have thought that if things are so bad you would have left and went to one of the competing airlines offering better terms and conditions and working life that seems so elusive.

Would in not be best to leave and get the better terms and condition you desire than stay when you are obviously so unhappy?.

[sergeblanco]

why not stay here and fight for the terms and conditions here.make a difference and not keep running.i think as pilots we have run away from the hard choices for too long now just to feather our own nests.this is the reason that we are in this mess now.do you think that all the other airlines are going to sit back and let fr be the only ones to ride roughshod over their staff.your turn will come in time if we don't fight your battle for you now.DO NOT BE UNDER ANY ILLUSIONS RUNWAY 31.YOUR DAY MAY COME AND IT IS NOT PLEASANTthis is not just about ryanair and balpa knows this,like we do here in the firing(pun) line.

[Michael O'Really?]

Don't forget the important issue of training bonds which force you to pay a large amount of money if you decide to go and work for a better employer. There are far fewer market forces in this industry than most people think. Some of which are positively ANTI-competitive.

[chikenscanfly]

sergeblanco is spot on... Although other airlines may be construed by union forces at the moment, it may come to pass that they will soon realise that should ryanair be able to pull this off, they too can lower the bar...

if all the airlines offer the same low pay and conditions package where else can we possibly run to...

but it is definately not a bad question runway...and there are some guys who are packing up and jumping ship...

market forces are definately not as quick in aviation as people think they are with regards to staff...there are pilots in the market jumping for a job, there are others gladly looking around, but no one will take the risk of leaving a company in the hope of getting hired elsewhere. Seniority plays a big factor, as does the rate of hour building, possible future command opportunities...

and why should we be forced out by a bully from an airline we all effectively built for him. Sure he steered the ship, but we rowed the damned thing didnt we?

[2Infinity&beyond]

Greetings all.

I would like to make some points to all participating actively, and passively. We at Ryanair are at no illusion where we are. We have not just woken up to the success of the airline and desire more money, or more benefits. We all know we work for Ryanair, and not South West or BA, or Virgin, or any other airline in the world. Each has its unique issues and pros and cons.
We all were happy to join Ryanair, and work hard for a living ( 4sectors in and out of London, daily, training cadets is very tiring when you have to give a quality product to the customers, do a 25 minute turnaround, and train to the highest standard the new guys.) What we achieve at work goes above and beyond what MOL and his team gives us tools and policy for. I am not going to argue about underpayment, or not being valued enough, etc.
We pilots at Ryanair are fighting to keep our present terms and conditions from erroding. Everything around the world is becoming more expensive, and our salaries are going the wrong way.
I do not want to leave Ryanair because management are unable to find long term solutions to their cost model, and are destroying our tcs because that is all they can do. When the times were tough many years ago, we all agreed to a paycut when management told us we might have to see some of our colleagues go, but that was when we were fighting for survival.
Ryanair makes millions of Euros in cash every year, 250 millions last year, and about the same this year, and this is after tax. We have over 1 billion in cash which is airline wealth and not cash in hand for day to day operations. No one in Management has given anything back from their high salaries, or their high bonuses to say, look guys we are participating in a difficult period of cutbacks, and here is what we are also giving back. Ryanair does not need to cut back costs further to compete, they are already extremely low. They need to become more service oriented. In the mean time they are squeezing everyone out of the market, with artificial cost reductions, taking away things from its employees which are not priviledges, or benefits but the mere necesities. Having water onboard an aircraft is not an unnecessary cost, it is a legal requirement. Taking away our loss of licence, is not a benefit, it is a necessity. Our job has a six month validation period, and some of us have needed this money to help us fund something to do in between jobs when we have lost our licence thus our income generating capability.
We do not want to leave the airline just because the bosses cannot make their ambitious plans work. They are the ones buying 300 airplanes like as if they were coffee table. If their plans had worked, they would be billioners, but we would still be getting the same salaries. It was their choice to be where they are, so if they cannot make things work, and fill up airplanes with high yield pax, then they should reap the consequences of their missmanagement and close the door on the way out.

[bacardi walla]

When someone resigns from RYR they are forced to sign a declaration stating they will never attempt to sue RYR for anything after leaving. If it's not signed, the chances are, you won't get paid..... bully tactics ???

[Arkroyal]

Runway31,

Chickens and serge are spot on. There is no point in jumping out of the frying pan, and into the fire.

The appalling antics of MOL are being imitaded daily by his competitors, and it's only the union which will prevent the whole industry (LCCs) ending up the same.

It's not just FR that's at stake here. Go for it.

[Hold_the_front_page]

Just finished reading the "Ryanair" book by the Irish Times journalist. In it our CEO is quoted as saying that safety is the only thing that keeps him awake at night. Well , at Buzz Stansted what keeps a lot of us awake at night, is wondering whether we will have a job or not after you close us down !

Since February 2003, the Buzz pilots have faced over 18 months of threats and uncertainty over their future, Many times recently I have gone to work on an early after a sleepless night worrying about my family's financial security etc , coupled on occasions with the discovery in my pigeon hole of yet another letter from a certain manager at Stansted, containing material that is upsetting to say the least !


At present there are a lot of tired, unhappy and stressed pilots like myself at Buzz Stansted (and I suspect Ryanair too) When we joined, we were all put on one year's probation, during which time we could be given one week's notice. We have been told that "if" we are sucessful with our applications to Ryanair (after paying our £50 of course !) we will be on one year's probation again ! Thats two years of living under the threat of bieng shown the door with only a week's notice, additional stress we could all do without I'm sure.


PS

Two Captains at Buzz Stansted have had minor heart attacks in the last 12 months, *this is a fact *. Fortunately they have both made full recoveries and were not at work at the time.


Sweet dreams .......................

[FRying]

2infinity, you're absolutely right. Squeezing and squeezing will only bring defeat to MOL and his band just because there's a point below which you fight for your life and your family's life and you want the other side to pass away before you do yourself.
There used to be a time, in some -European-countries, when the richest who used to make even more and more money on their servants' backs got their heads chopped off for that. In public. This is to show, in general terms, how a tense situation cannot naturally go on for ever.

For a situation to go on for ever, you need equilibrium, win-win and desire from all to keep going.

That is absolutely not the case at FR at the moment !!!

[chikenscanfly]

Its interesting...

As is common belief, MOL thinks he can pull these antics and get away with it, anticipating scores of pilots to leave only to be replaced with cheaper, less experienced crew who are willing to take the brunt, in some cases perhaps because they can't get in anywhere else.

but this cant keep going on forever...the point of scarcity is near, and soon the company will find themselves, as will many others, with expansion plans unable to be met by the lack in supply of crews.

the market will show recessive growth again, and those companies with the most eggs in their baskets will falter.

its not that hard to forsee

if anyone in the airline business is reading this (and most of us can already guess one individual), wake up and use the brains that got you your job...

stability in this market is of utmost importance...lack of it leads to iincidents and, heavan forbid, accidents...

stability includes proper workforce conditions...

[GearDown&Locked]

someone got fired because they decided to question the new policy on no crew water onboard airplanes? too bad...take it or leave it.

My comment to that: :yuk:

One of this days we'll see vending machines fitted on the cabin. That certainly will cut some costs on CC salary. Oooops I'm probably givig some "good" ideas to someone.:uhoh: :eek:

GD&L

[RAT 5]

This is not aimed at any particular company, because it applies to so many.
Whenever there is a 'whinge' about T's & C's & life style there is always someone who responds with;

"If you don't like it leave. You knew what you were getting into when you signed."

This is not always true. I've never been told at interview that the company is anything other than the best for pilots. It has always been some months later, perhaps sooner, that the real truth unfolds. In the 21st century, in western Europe (EU) earning our levels of salary and accepting the levels of responsibility, it is not unreasonable to expect good, even high, standards of personnel treatment. It would apply in most other industries. It should not be necessary to conduct an audit on every employer's attitude before you join up. (Sadly, though, it does seem the case).

Applying the logic of "you should leave" to moving house, it would go something like this.

You move into a good neighbourhood of valuable houses, where everyone seems to be socialable, well behaved and with community spirit. Even your closest neighbour, on first meeting, was convivial. After some months the truth outs, and the next door family prove to be a nightmare for many reasons. A quick poll of the other residents discover that this has been going on ever since the louts moved in and everyone is sick of it.

Who should leave the neighbourhood?

[Yarpy]

Unions look to get off the ground at Ryanair

A long-running dogfight at the low-cost airline took a new turn this week with the launch of a website designed to bypass the management and communicate directly with staff. Colin Cottell reports

Saturday September 4, 2004
The Guardian

Ryanair pilots were left in little doubt about what the company thought of their trade union when, earlier this summer, a manager at Stansted airport told them: "We have no objection to any Ryanair pilot joining Balpa, the Taliban, the Monster Raving Loonies or indeed the Moonies. Each individual is perfectly free to join whatever organisation he/she so chooses."
The manager went on to advise the staff not to spend their money on union subscriptions by adding: "If you want to waste £1,000 we recommend fast women, slow horses or even greyhound racing. At least you'll have a few minutes of fun."

When asked about the email, Ryanair has consistently replied: "We do not comment on any internal communications or discussions between ourselves and our people."

The unions argue that an aggressive pursuit of profits pervades the company's management. This, they say, is reflected in the way staff are forced to pay for their uniforms and airport car parking, a refusal to pay trainees and a hostile anti-union corporate culture.

Until now, the company and its colourful chief executive Michael O'Leary appeared to hold most of the aces. Earlier this year, Mr O'Leary, who had once again successfully resisted the pilots' attempts to win trade union recognition, suggested that anyone who wasn't happy was "free to go elsewhere - godspeed to them."

But this week, the trade union movement struck back with the launch of a website designed to go over the head of Mr O'Leary and directly to his workforce, via their PCs.

In a virtual strike on the airline, the International Transport Workers Federation (ITF) launched www.ryan-be-fair.org which is described by the ITF as a "new kind of campaigning". The site has already received support from British unions such as the TGWU, the GMB, and Amicus, and from unions across Europe.

"Traditional campaigning methods, such as leafleting or union meetings, are not suitable. We intend to give our colleagues at Ryanair options other than visits to union offices at the airports, to get in touch with union representatives," said Ingo Marowsky, secretary of the ITF's civil aviation section.

"Instead, we want to invite employees to communicate with each other, and with the unions in their home countries, and to join them." The ITF stresses that one of the website's key features is its confidentiality.
In an attempt to build public pressure on the company to change its ways, the website is also designed to allow the public to find out more about the employees at Ryanair and the social practices of the company. It contains an appeal for fairness.

The website is sure to raise the hackles of the company. Pprune.org, a pilots' internet forum, recently removed a hugely popular thread titled "Ryanair, a call to action" because of the threat of legal action from the company. It has since re-opened, although to avoid legal problems, users posting messages are urged to follow strict guidelines.

The difficulties facing trade unions in Ryanair are formidable. "People are quite frightened even to mention the subject," says one Ryanair employee, who talked to Jobs & Money this week but wishes to remain anonymous.

"You could probably discuss it outside of work. But you would never discuss it on the plane, or anything like that. I was handed a union form. But I was told by the other workers that if I joined the union, I would be sacked."

He did join the union, but makes sure the company doesn't know. "I pay my subscriptions by direct debit, rather than have the company take it from my wages. The majority of staff would join a trade union. Without a doubt," he says.

Mr O' Leary and the trade unions share a history. As long ago as 1998, in a bitter dispute, he defeated a Dublin strike for union recognition by 39 baggage handlers from SIPTU, a large Irish union. Since then, he has rebuffed all unions' efforts to gain influence within the company.

"We have about half a dozen members in Ryanair. And they are extremely nervous," says Brendan Gold, the TGWU's national secretary for civil aviation.

Amicus and the GMB, with about 100 members each, tell a similar story.

Ryanair says it observes and respects the right of its employees to join a trade union. But at the same time, it says it also respects the rights of employees to continue to negotiate directly through their own elected representatives on issue of conditions and pay.

A spokesman says: "There is no evidence to suggest Ryanair pilots want the trade unions to represent them. The last time this matter was put to a secret ballot, conducted independently in October 2001 only 18% of Ryanair's Balpa members supported trade union recognition. The reason the majority do not want union recognition is because they achieve better pay and bigger pay increases by dealing directly with the company.

It says that its average salary of £50,582 is among the highest of any airline in Europe, and compares favourably with British Airways (£37,602) and EasyJet (£41,384).

However, this summer relationships between the company and its staff plummeted further when, according to trade union sources, a number of pilots organised a boycott of information meetings with Mr O'Leary in London. According to one source, those who didn't attend, and several who did, received a memo questioning their commitment to the company.

Meanwhile, Ryanair is on a collision course with some of its Irish pilots. Captain Evan Cullen, president of IALPA (the Irish pilots union) confirmed reports in the Irish Times that a number of Dublin-based pilots received individually tailored letters which contained "a clearly implied threat that pilots who engaged in union activity would not be trained on the company's new Boeing 737-800 fleet".

Mr Gold says trade unions face a long haul in persuading Ryanair employees of the benefits of an independent trade union, and achieving recognition. "One of the problems is that many of the workers in Ryanair have no knowledge of unions whatsoever. Mr O'Leary may be saying to them 'Don't worry about those unions, they are an irrelevance, and I will look after you'.

"It would be arrogant and wrong to assume that everybody in Ryanair wishes to join a union, and it is only Mr O'Leary that has prevented them," continues Mr Gold. "We recognise that cabin crew enjoy working for Ryanair."

None the less, says Mr Gold, there are "quite a number" of staff who feel they need an independent organisation to assist them, and this website provides a valuable way to engage with them.

"Ryanair is like an old eastern European country with an iron curtain around it. You can't get in from outside. We have got to open it up, and this website is an ideal mechanism to do it."

[bacardi walla]

We recognise that cabin crew enjoy working for Ryanair."

And who told you that :confused:

[FRed up]

for the year 2002/2003 Ryanair cabin crew had a turnover rate approaching 85%
how can a group form effective opposition when those that object to the working practises of ryanair leave after 3 to 6 months .
about the only ones happy to be working for ryanair are the girls and guys from the high unemployment areas of spain and the newly joined countries of the EU,
cabin crew in ryanair get shafted more then any job i have ever seen in any company in any county,
some say that the money they earn ( if they have no other qualifications ) is excellant for the age that they are , however divide the salary by the amount of hours they work and the crap that they have to put up with (particularly in stansted where i personally have seen managers roaring in girls faces until they broke down and cried )
and i think you'll see its not really worth it ,

[bacardi walla]

in stansted where i personally have seen managers roaring in girls faces until they broke down and cried and that's on a good day :rolleyes:

JM read it - your girls and boys ain't happy so it ain't just the front end people who are cheesed off.... http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/WBtazani.gif

[vladimir747]

the workers of ryanair made a web-page

www.ryan-be-fair.org

please enter to visit the web,support us!

[chikenscanfly]

News just in...

The Swedish faction of the ITF has started a campaign passing out printed sick bags to passengers boarding at Skavsta airport. All of a sudden the isolated UK and Ireland based union decision seems to also be making more precedence in the bases elsewhere....

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/09/1094499607.html

With Easyjet posting 24% profit increases, Virgin Express showing signs of recovery with profits up 10%, and the 'troubled' KLM-Air France alliance announcing yields and profits also on the rise, one wonders what of this 'battlefield of startups' this coming winter.

I think MOL will be the victim of his own success...low fares aren't going to last forever, and when you threaten legal action against papers reporting your company's flight safety, whilst also saying safety is your prime concern, it suggests a coverup...

people will be turning away from the 'ridiculous' low fares in fear of safety and staff treatment concerns...

[olholh]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ledere i et flyselskap, som kan skrive på denne måten til sine ansatte, burde ikke kunne oppnå godkjennelse som Accountable Manager under JAR eller inneha noe form for ansvarlig posisjon i en organisasjon som opprettholder en AOC ( Air Operator Certificate ).
-------------
Managers in an airline, that are able to write in this manner to its employees, should not be able to gain approval as Accountable Manager under JAR or hold any responsible position in an organisation maintaining an AOC ( Air Operator Certificate ).
olh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

( transcript )

Ryanair in a letter to its employees:

"We have no objection to any Ryanair pilot joining BALPA, the Taliban, the Monster Raving Loonies or indeed the Moonies. Each individual is perfectly free to join whatever organization he/she so chooses."

( oversatt )

Ryanair i et brev til sine ansatte:

Vi har ingen innvendinger mot at en flyger i Ryanair blir medlem i BALPA ( British Airline Pilot Association ), i webstedet for de gale ( The Monster Raving Loonies ), eller ( The Moonies ), en ekstremreligiøs, påstått hjernevasket, sekt i USA. Etthvert individ ( i Ryanair, red. ), er helt og holdent fri til å bli medlem i hvilket som helst organisasjon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[sergeblanco]

Good for mick to be on the recieving end.

So we earn 157 euros per annum more than sas staff on average.
the subtle flaw in the plan is that we have to pay for all the extras and they don't.

157 euros after tax,thats a free kebab!

Any of our scandinavian contributors willing to post the contents in english of the contentious article regarding safety that has the boys in such a pickle.

Another edit.... this is your last warning on this thread sergeblanco. Bear in mind the advice in the first post above before posting. One more transgression of the rules and you will be banned from this thread permanently. Admin

[olholh]

Hi!
I'll translate it tomorrow and post it.

[chikenscanfly]

I understand that perhaps there was something else in Srgeblanco's post...

but the truth is the difference in salaries between us and SAS is that SAS does have the perks we end up paying for ourselves...

what we end up taking home, using these figures, is therefore less with RYR.

I also find MOL's figure bloated compared to what the real truth about salaries is in RYR

[sergeblanco]

olholh,thanks for the post.look forward to it.

keep up the good work boys.

admin,i will post it as i see it.bar me if you, will but freedom of speech is my right.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Not on here sunshine ... adhere to the guidance given in the first post, or we exercise our rights, which you signed up to.

[Runway 31]

Chickenscanfly and Sergeblanco

As a regular passenger with Ryanair out of Prestwick, is my safety at risk. As employees of Ryanair are you telling me that I should I be so concerned for my safety that I should look for another airline.

Are the record 25million passenger carried by Ryanair in August in danger, if so why are the various avaiation authorities not doing anything about it?.

This thread is to discuss ONLY the issues and arguments around unionisation within Ryanair. Speculation outside that remit is not relevant. Your question may be valid in another context, but not in this context given the rigid criteria for this thread to stay public. Please respect that, and we can keep this debate moving forward. Admin

[Sick Squid]

Ok sergeblanco, if thats the way you want to play it, you are banned from this thread and this forum. "Freedom of speech" is not your right here, a "freedom to speak" has been granted and comes with a responsibility to follow the serious guidelines above. As you blatantly cannot do that,following two warnings, then we do not want your contribution thank you.

Any further off-topic posts will be deleted.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator

[chikenscanfly]

Well I guess banning an individual is getting a bit dire again, but I take it you guys are sitll not arou that legal stitch with the original thread.

In reply to your questions Runway 31, Ryanair is staffed with experienced and professional individuals. As it stands you have nothing to worry about.

As the moderators rightfully said the only point behind this discussion is to validate our moves towards voting for union recognition, and take on and share new information with regards to this issue ONLY as it comes...

the recent issue raised was that of our CEO's comparing our salaries against those of another airline. Whilst salary differences aren't our prime reason for taking up this kind of action, it does give an example to us of a scenario where management is bending the figures, or hiding other facts, to make it appear as if we still have a better deal than others. The startling there here is that until now we did think we brought home slightly more than other airlines, but realised that this amount is then dwindled off by the offset of items the company requires us to fund for ourselves, such as uniforms and food onboard, and now also recently taking our own water onboard, paying for our own medical certificates, loss of license insurance, and so forth.

Hearing about an example where we see the total we take home is only marginally higher than a competitor airline in Sweden, whilst those individuals don't have large portions of their pay then being offset once they receive to perform tasks required to function in their job for their employer, is an eye opener for most of us.

In retrospect with this example so far, it would be foolhearty for anyone to believe that although he put up with more bullying from management, we still get paid more than the others. This recent example is a stark reminder of this.

I Hope I haven't gone too far out of bounds with this post, and trust the moderators would have carefully read it and considered their legal standing before posting it through.

[Runway 31]

How will having union recognition assist the 5,000 individuals being made redundant at Alitalia, the 1,500 at Aer Lingus and all the possible layoffs at United and US Air to name but a few.

All these airlines are unionised and part of the problem is their demands. Is it possible that the unions cause more problems than they solve?.

[trainer too 2]

The problem at RYR is that by constantly cutting corners they will at some point cut a corner too much. All staff should be able to speak up and not fear to be fired. That is one issue, a culture of fear is NOT constructive and in my view not safe in the long run. A guy (or gal) worried avout his or her job might not pay the attention to a 25 turn around that it deserve etc... :eek:

On top of that all the airline employees off the airlines in question have a tough time and yes employees should also pay their share. The problem at RYR is that MOL is the only one who makes a filthy amount of money but the people delivering the service are getting paid less and less after inflation.... :rolleyes:

[Vin Diesel]

The previous post questioned the worth of a union to the 1500 people being made redundant at Aer Lingus. Well the strength of the unions at Aer Lingus would be well known to management. Also, there would have been political pressure given that Aer Lingus is a semi state body and that a majority of the workforce would reside in the same dublin constituency.

In Ireland, the legislation covering redundancy payments was the redundancy payments act, 1967-91. This provided as a legal minimum for half a weeks pay per year of service between 16 and 41years of age, and a further full weeks pay per year of service from age 41 to the date of dismissal. Not a great deal by any stretch of the imagination.

I am almost certain that this legislation was updated in the last 2-3years and now provides for a legal minimum payment of two weeks pay per year of service.

The worth of the union to the workers at Aer Lingus then was their ability to negotiate a redundancy payment in excess of the statutory minimum.

The package on offer provides for nine weeks pay per year of service up to a maximum of 130 weeks pay, and subject to a minimum payment of €40,000 euro.

This is much better than the statutory minimum. By having union recognition, the workers are better off. In the absence of a union, management would be legally entitled to impose the statutory minimum payments. By combining, the workers at Aer Lingus have benefitted.

I can't of course speak for Alitalia or any other carrier, because I'm not familiar with their situations, nor do i believe that unions are perfect. They can be inflexible and they can have their own agenda, but barring any ideological arguments the facts in the Aer Lingus case support the view that unionisation has benefitted those workers.

I would be inclined to believe that union recognition would benefit staff at Ryanair.

[chikenscanfly]

As vin has very rightfully put it...

And in my humble opinion...

If Ryanair suddenly had to rack in the redundancies, they would scrape off as much excess as was necessary for them to remain profitable, and would pick and choose who it would be most cost effective to remove from the staff.

Those 1500 lay offs at Aer Lingus could in RYR terms equate to around 5,000, with minimum conditions paid for if most employees are lucky.

The decision would be done within a whim of thought, agreements would be broken with the excuse of exceptional circumstances, and people who never considered their job at risk suddenly find themselves retrenched with only a week's notice...

It is true, factual, that many people employed by ryanair have to give the company a month's notice. Ryanair, in return, only has to offer a week's notice, and it is rumoured that this is often still too long for the company to wait for.

Union's can go over the line, introduce unnecessary costs, bring in too much beaurocracy. But in a company where fear and intimidation 'seems' to be the means of management, and where employees 'feel' they have no right to say or even suggest opposition to management's decisions, a Union can mean something very different all of a sudden...

A Union can mean what a Union was originally meant for.


Again, all in my humble opinion except where otherwise stated.

[Runway 31]

I agree with what is being said about how worthwhile it is for any workforce being unionised.

I sometimes wonder though about the thoughts of the union hiararchy and if they really have the interests of the workers in their minds.

Have a look at this article from todays New York Times. The union never even put the decision on rejecting the management ideas to stave off bankruptcy to the vote. How many will now loose their jobs.



The chairman of the pilots' union at US Airways said yesterday that a proposal to cut $295 million from pilots' wages and benefits might not have saved the airline from bankruptcy but should have been put to a vote anyway.

In a broadcast on the pilots' Web site, Bill Pollock said the union would now be "at the mercy of the courts" if US Airways follows through on its threat to seek Chapter 11 protection.

His comments came a day after rebel pilots on the union's master executive council blocked other union leaders from sending the company's last offer to its 3,000 pilots. No negotiations are scheduled.

US Airways has been trying to persuade its unions to grant $800 million in concessions so it can avoid a bankruptcy filing, which would be its second in two years.

But unions, which gave the airline two sets of cuts worth $1.9 billion before it emerged from bankruptcy in April 2003, have resisted. Without the cuts, the airline has said it will most likely seek court protection, a move some analysts speculate could happen as early as Sunday

[Cyclic Hotline]

News Story here (http://biz.yahoo.com/ts/040909/10182014_1.html)

RealMoney by TheStreet.com

Ryanair Reaching on Web Crackdown

Thursday September 9, 7:03 am ET
By Peter Eavis, Senior Columnist


Discontent among Ryanair's (NasdaqNM:RYAAY - News) pilots must be a source of great concern to the company's chief executive, Michael O'Leary. Why else would Europe's largest budget airline have threatened a U.K.-based Web site with legal action if it didn't take down comments pertaining to Ryanair's pilots?

O'Leary has been one of the most combative CEOs to ever run a public company. He has launched abuse-ridden tirades against critics, airports, competitors and regulators. In July, he called the company that runs Stansted airport outside London a "bunch of overcharging rapists." Back in January, O'Leary labeled as "Stalinist" a European Union ruling that one of Ryanair's airport deals was anticompetitive.

But despite his penchant for dishing out insults and criticism, he doesn't seem able to tolerate any brickbats thrown his way. When the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, a Web forum popular with Europe-based pilots, posted a discussion thread containing a mixture of informed insights and raucous comments on Ryanair's relations with its pilots, the company's lawyers sent the Web site a letter demanding that it take down the thread. Howrey Europe, a law firm acting on behalf of Ryanair, sent the letter to PPruNe, as the Web site calls itself, on Aug. 24.

The letter argued that the statements on the thread were "untrue, unfounded, malicious and deeply damaging to the good name and trading reputation of Ryanair." The letter added that Ryanair would move to gain an "immediate injunction" against PPruNe and claim damages if the Web site didn't remove the thread, which discussed pilot unionization and pilot pay -- hot button issues for Ryanair right now.

PPruNe removed the thread, but a new thread has appeared on the Web site concerning unionization at Ryanair. Ryanair didn't immediately comment when asked why it acted to remove the thread. PPruNe owner Danny Fyne said: "Tactics like this never work in the long term. If we didn't publish it, someone else would."

After an earnings warning in January, Ryanair stock has been languishing and its ADRs are nearly 50% below their 52-week high. Wednesday they fell 38 cents to $30.43.

O'Leary has massively underestimated the harshness of competition in the European budget airline sector. Fares have slumped at a time when Ryanair was bringing on a huge number of new planes. That problem wasn't helped by the fact that Ryanair flies to many cheap, out-of-the-way airports that there is insufficient demand for. And after one of Ryanair's cheap deals with a remote airport was judged by the EU to break its competition laws, investors now wonder how many other airport deals may also become invalid.

To revive its fortunes, Ryanair has been doing all it can to cut costs and boost revenue. One sensible-seeming cost-cutting move is the fitting of non-reclining seats. But one move that is generating criticism, both among customers and in the market, is a wheelchair levy on every ticket that Ryanair said it was charging to cover the cost of transporting disabled passengers to and from its planes. The levy appears to still be in place. It's not clear if it is around 70 euro cents or 50 euro cents, but if it is the lower number, the levy accounted for around 22% of the increase in operating profits at Ryanair in its June quarter, compared with the year-ago period.

The wheelchair levy is a clear sign of desperation, but so are moves to cut the most basic of pilots' perks. One measure has Ryanair pilots buying their own uniforms. Cost-cutting ceases to have beneficial effects if it causes a company's best employees to leave. And discontent does seem to be growing. Ryanair management is currently waging a bare-fisted propaganda war to keep pilots from opting for their union to represent them in pay negotiations. In a recent memo, a Ryanair manager at Stansted airport said that paying union dues would amount to a waste of money: "If you want to waste 1,000 pounds we recommend fast women, slow horses or even greyhound racing. At least you'll have a few minutes of fun," the memo said.

Ryanair can always find inexperienced pilots eager to clock up miles, and it can employ them on a nonsalaried basis. But all airlines need a solid base of experienced pilots to meet aviation regulations and provide training. Ryanair cannot risk an exodus of these. And alleged hardball tactics may cause this to happen. Experienced pilots who need to receive expensive top-up training to fly Ryanair's new series of Boeings have been told that the company won't pay for their training if they opt for union representation, according to a person familiar with employee relations at Ryanair.

To be sure, the PPruNe thread that was taken down contained the sort moronic chatter common on message boards. But it also had some interesting viewpoints, including a calculation by a poster called "St. Savior" that showed that the removal of basic perks could erode the pay rises awarded to certain Ryanair pilots.

What does this mean for investors? Detox's take: Ryanair's revenue outlook must be so lackluster that the company is now trying to silence Web sites as part of an almighty effort to keep costs down.

[St Saviour]

Hmmm....... all this fuss about nothing! :}

[maxalt]

Is there an echo in here???

[FRying]

Unions is one thing. They have their use.

Another type of action is justice. Bringing Ryanair's management to justice with no tolerance anymore, at the slightest attempt of misconduct, can increase employees strength. Both techniques are complimentary.

It's only sad to have to go to such lengths to get some respect and normal T&Cs while all this could be done peacefully, through negociation and win-win deals.

But I know a number of lawyers who would love to take some FR cases on.

Lawsuits can be triggered by groups and/or individuals.

[Aloue]

I know a number of lawyers who would love to take some FR cases on.
Whatever about lawyers wanting to take cases on, they will only do so if they can hope to win – and to do that they need some evidence that will stand up in court. Not only do they need evidence, but they also need SOMEBODY who is willing to stand up and take the case. We need to “get real about the realities” here. There are very few people who are willing to do this. Many, many people have left Ryanair having been abused. Many currently believe themselves to be abused. There are sufficient numbers of such people, the majority of whom are not pilots, to open up the entire can of worms. Interestingly, they never do so even after leaving. Which makes all claims of bullying and intimidation no more than “rumour”. Ryanair employees may “know” or “claim” that this is not really a “rumour” – but until it is proved it cannot be claimed to be a fact.

Another problem is that Ryanair staff know how to interpret and decode Ryanair memos, etc. The memo from a middle manager in STN “encouraging” pilots to attend a meeting has been discussed – but not posted on PPRUNE. The feeling abroad is that the memo brought obvious pressure onto STN pilots. BUT, perhaps a non-Ryanair person might not see that memo as being as intimidating as a Ryanair employee? Can somebody post it so that we can have a look?

To change tack slightly, is it not interesting that nobody ever seems to have heard of a Ryanair crewmember being unfit for duty due to fatigue? I don’t have anything on fatigue, but I do have one memo, which I have copied and reproduced below. It concerns staff sickness and has been regularly sent to individual staff members, including those who have a legal obligation not to turn up for work if unfit.

I think a Ryanair employee will know how to interpret this document. Is it also not rather interesting that Ryanair only seems to employ cabin crew that are sick for very few days a year? What excellent selection methods they must have. I am sure that the following memo has nothing to do with it. Here is the memo:
Over the past year over 10,000 days have been lost through absenteeism in RYANAIR; which equates to 7 un-crewed aircraft every day, all year around!!!.

Your attendance record shows that you have been absent from work on 5 occasions during the last 12 months. This high frequency of absence cannot be sustained, as other people within your area have to pick up additional work in your absence.

All absences in the future will be closely monitored and, I need to see a dramatic and sustained improvement in your attendance in the months ahead.

Please confirm receipt of this letter and measures you will take to eliminate further absence from work. If you have any queries on the above please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely,

Dxxxx XXxxxx

[bacardi walla]

It's also interesting to hear from crew members who have received the above mentioned memo but have only been sick for one day or even less. Sent to all crew members in order to intimidate them. Hardly fair !

The reason nobody goes sick "due to fatigue" is purely because of the real threat hanging over them if they did. Remember, everyone is on 12 months probation and can be dropped with one weeks notice, but in reality is less. The threat is "go sick - get sacked" but it's called "not coming up to the required standards and therefore as you are on probation, your contract is terminated".......

How many Buzz crew are being threatened into signing a new contract that has already been proved by a lawyer to be "worthless" ?

IMHO - the bubble will burst sooner than we think :E

St Saviour Interesting last comment. A fuss about nothing hey :confused:

[trainer too 2]

May I compliment the writter of the article above for a piece well written specially: But despite his penchant for dishing out insults and criticism, he doesn't seem able to tolerate any brickbats thrown his way. When the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, a Web forum popular with Europe-based pilots, posted a discussion thread containing a mixture of informed insights and raucous comments on Ryanair's relations with its pilots, the company's lawyers sent the Web site a letter demanding that it take down the thread.

That is such a good point, the biggest buly does not like it that the bullied people have a way of complaining and that he can not reach... Pprune power!! :ok:

The best part is if something goes wrong at RYR in the future that MOL now by formally acknowliging that the thread exists cannot hide and say he was not aware that staff never complained about certain safety issues, labor relations and possible strikes etc etc... :ok:

[SpectreLover]

I say we all start a new Ryanair discussion on PPRUNE. Let them never die out, and let it never be hidden - what this airline is all about.

[FRying]

Good point Aloue.

Only, things will never begin until they actually begin. Nothing lasts forever. And yes, MOL will have an end. The USSR has finished. Back in time, I never thought it would. Well it did.

You think people will never dare to act. They actually will at some point : in 1 month, 3 months, 12 or 36. A change WILL happen and it will be very dark times for MOL and his followers.

[BahrainLad]

Did anyone else see O'Leary on CNBC this morning?

Lots of pointed questions about union representation, "fast women and horses" and reference to a certain website.....

The City (and by "City", I mean not just London but Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt as well....cities who's burghers are already uneasy about O'Leary's bombast) is gradually waking up to this one.....arch capitalists we may be to the core, but if we see a company with an unhappy workforce, it usually spells deeper troubles....

[Ringo]

Is it the same Tony Blair at the TUC conference this afternoon speaking about the absolute right of employees to choose union representation in the workplace who also chose to fly Ryanair a couple of weeks ago coming home from his "holiday" in Pisa?

Does'nt he read pprune?

[sky9]

The letter copied by Aloue was interesting. As far as I am aware it is an offence to fly when sick and most, if not all Airline’s Operations Manuals make that clear. I would have thought that by now the IAA should be considering whether the person who wrote the letter is a fit a proper person to be in a Management position. If not it will reflect very poorly on the IAA and its commitment to flight safety.

[Big Tudor]

sky9,

I feel that it may fall on deaf ears. The current opinion of employers seem to be that casual sickness is on the rise and is becoming a problem. A major UK supermarket chain recently introduced a policy of deducting wages for sickness (endorsed by the union as well!). And I heard today that York council are introducing a policy wereby employees have to call a nurse when they report sick, on the basis that they can receive expert medical assistance for their ailments. Some would argue that a nurse is more qualified to judge whether someone is swinging the lead than a manager would be! As long as this opinion pervades, their will be an element of suspicion about anybody reporting sick for duty.

[Jack The Lad]

Spot on Big Tudor

Add to that, the fact that BA can actually chart the 'sickness' ratio coincident with notable events such as the World Cup, Olympics, and all manner of other events!

I'm reliably imformed that there was much correlation!

[FRying]

Jack, if what you're saying is true, I find it very sad as this is having a very negative impact on all employees. This is throwing discredit on a majority of honnest employees.

However, I feel this letter is the expression of a serious midconduct from management as the employee is being considered as a liar prior to any other sort of consideration. I have been sick twice this year. Once for one day, once for two days. I could not even have started an engine or analysed a met report properly.

[atse]

It is undoubtedly true that organisations can track sickness rates as Jack has said. It is equally true that those working irregular hours and weekends are more prone to the kind of correlations to which Jack refers. It is also true that certain “spikes” in sickness rates are sometimes so remarkable as to strain belief.

However, note that Jack does not specify that he is talking about pilots. Some pilots, particularly younger pilots, may indeed show some tendency to the same syndrome. However, the available evidence suggests that of all the employee groups in any given company the pilots have by far the lowest incidence of such statistically interesting behaviour. (The general incidence of the syndrome may vary from company to company, but that is another subject).

The point is that for as long as pilots have a legal obligation to be fit for duty they must in the first instance be given the benefit of any doubt.

What we have started to do here is drift from the subject, which is the impact of the Ryanair culture on the willingness of pilots (and cabin crew for that matter) to turn up for duty in a fit state. The consensus seems to be that the impact of the Ryanair culture is not favourable to making such decisions. (Which, if you wish, can be taken to be a tactful way of say it is blindingly obvious to everyone except Ryanair management, the CAA, the IAA and some PPRuNe posters).

[bacardi walla]

OK, any truth in the rumour that WB is about to depart :confused:

Best thing he could ever do if true :ok:

[atse]

Could the Gods be smiling upon us?

[bacardi walla]

Well, watch this space over the next few months.......you see, what goes around always comes around and shoots you in the ..........:eek:

[Jack The Lad]

Frying & Atse.

What I should have also said, and I realised after the event, that in BA's case these 'spikes' as atse aptly calls them did refer in general to the cabin crew, I believe, and not the flight deck crew. That is relevant in so much as it would appear that maybe FR have noticed that same tendancy and would explain why the cabin crew received such a letter and not the flightdeck.

I'm sure I'll get flamed by the other contingent now but this place is a bit of a 'damned if you do and damned if you don't'!

I think most organisations, and I'm sure Ryanair fall in this category, accept that if you are genuinely sick such that you cannot perform your duties to the standard required, then you should go sick. On the other side of the scale, I've seen people pitch up for work that never should and you have to send them home. Mostly, however, and sadly, there are many that think a 'sicky' here and there is their right. Shame those lot aren't self-employed, because sick = no pay; tends to focus the grey matter a bit.

[atse]

Jack, Just for your information, many Ryanair flight deck crew have received the memo.

[chikenscanfly]

Sorry chaps, but there seems to have been a bit of an oversight here...

Cabin crew are required to PAY, yes PAY RYR about GBP27.00 for every day they are sick up to a maximum of 3 days...

so yes, people dont just go sick because it hurts their pay...

furthermore, this trend has also begun with the pilots, with sick pay DEDUCTIONS appearing on many pilots salary slips...

alongside this, the cabin or flight crew member does not receive his or here sector (flight) pay for that day...

Sorry to say this, but this is fact.

So with this in mind, im afriad to say that for those who think a sicky here should be self-employed, this policy puts things more into perspective...

Understand that RYR have things set up to their advantage, no matter what happens...

and to finish this post off, there is rumour that the new cabin crew from the recently added EU states are not paid a constant basic pay rate, that their income is only based on sector pay (flight pay)

again, this last addition is rumour...those in RYR will be able to read between those lines...

[atse]

Not only that Chickens, but a number of them (the new cabin crew) are not directly employed by Ryanair but by third party companies that they have to pay in advance for their training. If, as appears to be the case, they only receive sector pay - and obviously only when they work - then one gets the "ohh soo very Ryanair" drift....

There is also a memo out there with the requirements to be followed if you go sick. That + the memo already posted tells pretty well the whole story. Anybody got a copy of the other document they can post here?

Jack the Lad: do you have information to challenge or refute what Chickens has said? If so, please provide it. It looks to me that he knows a bit more about Ryanair than you do with your ... and I'm sure Ryanair fall in this category ...
comment. What makes you so "sure", since a number of posters have already made it clear that they believe Ryanair certainly does not fall into that category?

[Backtrack]

atse,

is blindingly obvious to everyone except Ryanair management, the CAA, the IAA and some PPRuNe posters).

Not sure the reference to the CAA is entirely fair as FR is Irish registered & therefore the responsibility in this area falls in Dublin.

Maybe some will think this is a pedantic point, but here's the rub. The bulk of FR's profits come from the UK, but under JAA rules, our CAA doesn't get a look in.

[atse]

Backtrack, your points are taken. However, the CAA got a mention as they are not entirely isolated (Buzz).

[bacardi walla]

atse and Buzz is about to be closed by our friend MOL :rolleyes: So, no CAA support after 01NOV04

[clohessy the claw]

irelands' sunday tribune 12 september 200a

buisness section

"we haven't received any letter,but if we do i think it would get a pretty short reply.i think it would consist of two words:foxtrot oscar" ryanair boss micheal o'leary responds to reports that brussels is looking for return of the charleroi subsidies.

front page

"ryanair admits profits more important than punctuality"

ryanair has admitted publicly for the first time that profits are more important than getting its planes to their destinations on schedule.it has also been revealed that staff at the low fares airline are set a monthly target of money to acquire from passengers in excess baggage charges.
The information emerged in the course of an investigation into the dismissal of a ryanair employee for failing to collect a £50 excess baggage charge from a customer.while being cross-examined at the employment appeals tribunal,a deputy duty manager at the airline stated that "the collection of excess baggage charges was more important than the punctual departure of flights".
in her defence,the dismissed customer service assistant argued that she ushered the customer onto the early morning flight to beauvais without charging for excess baggage because to go through the manual process of charging would have delayed departure.
she told the tribunal that she "never saw the memorandum from the duty station manager about excess baggage being more important than getting passengers on the plane".she explained how other ryanair attendants "would bargain with passengers" over excess baggage charges and said the company "set a target of £1,000 per month" for each attendant to collect.
she said that she herself managed to collect £7,000 over eight days at christmas and didn't feel that there was any issue over her handling of the excess baggage charges.
The attendant was also disciplined by ryanair when she allowed
two asian passengers board a flight to charleroi in belguin even though they had invalid visas.as a result,the two passengers were refused entry and ryanair was forced to fly them back to dublin.the airline was also fined £6,000.
While the attendant had "contributed substantially to her dismissal" and the company had made "laudable attempts to deal with the matter",the employment appeals tribunal awarded her 700 euros.


any publicity is good publicity!

so for all you treasured customers and staff,if you don't like it,well you can "foxtrot oscar" with the brussels lot.then he wonders why he will never get the second terminal at dublin.

[Runway 31]

Still number 1 for punctuality though

[GGV]

Ryanair has just received a letter from the Walloon Regional Government asking for the return of illegal airport subsidies. Here, according to an Irish newspaper, is what Ryanair had to say:

“As soon as Ryanair receives this letter in English, we will respond immediately and will publish full details of this response.”

Attaboy MOL. Take no nonsense from those pesky foreigners, especially those wanting their money back!

[Flightrider]

Just going back to the point about CAA oversight of Ryanair's operations, the CAA has the right to request of the IAA powers to oversee Ryanair's operations under Article 83(bis) of the Chicago Convention.

This provides for an airworthiness authority to delegate oversight of an operation registered in its country to the airworthiness authority of another country. In short, it provides for situations such as that where the majority of Ryanair's operations fall in the UK instead of its state of registry, Ireland.

I wonder if the UK CAA has ever endeavoured to request such power to be delegated to it by the IAA under this article?

[Backtrack]

Flightrider

I can't comment on the rules under the Chicago Convention & bow to your superior knowledge.

BUT, does both the UK & Eire's membership of the JAA change things?

I put this very question of oversight to a CAA FOI earlier this year. His response was "No and it's a sore point."

[GGV]

Backtrack, your CAA FOI may well have said "it's a sore point" etc. but the reality is that both the IAA and CAA have the obligation to act if they think there is something to act upon. Also, as I understand it, both say they will act if they get reports, but also claim that they don't get such reports.

For all the talk of individuals within both of these organisations, BOTH have proved remarkably careful in tackling the said operator. Indeed, do they not both agree that the said operator "meets all their requirements"? For that indeed is exactly what the operator claims.

[chikenscanfly]

...based on "rumour"...

Would the European parliament let civilians of it's newest member states work well below the minimum wage of the European state in which they are working?

[clohessy the claw]

todays directive to now prevent pax from bringing their own drinks or food onto ryanair flights,because it is affecting our onboard sales,just beggars belief.
do we have them arrested for smuggling on a sandwich or cup of coffee?i think we are scraping the barrel a bit now and behind the scenes the war chest may be draining.

[BEagle]

The Ts &Cs currently prohibit passengers from consuming thier own alcohol on board and from carrying hot drinks on board (for safety reasons).

There is nothing stating that passengers may not bring their own food on board, nor prohibiting them from consuming it on board. Where would such a rule stop - a single tic-tac?

Clarification of your post please, clohessy the claw?

[clohessy the claw]

cabin crew instructed in memo book that brought on drinks and food affecting onboard sales and immediately to be stopped.no safety mentioned.

the cockpits crew carry on hot drinks and food is this affecting safety or are they trying to starve them out.

what clarification do you need?

[lod]

We are way off the point of this topic but what happened was there was a company going around the boarding area selling food and drinks to paxs as they were waiting to board so when EW got wind of this he sent out the memo. Cabin crew were told not to stop anybody from today on as the company is not going around the boarding area anymore.

[CARR30]

We always take our own food on Ryanair because we get what we want and it's cheaper. The cabin crew have never mentioned a thing about it. There seems to be some sort of conspiracy to repeat this lie about food being prohibited until it becomes a 'fact'.

The only time we've seen any reaction was when some Corsican rugby supporters started passing litre bottles of pastis around. That was solved quickly and amicably by the confiscation of the bottles until we arrived a Stansted.

[bacardi walla]

La Rochelle flights will temp. operate to Rochefort from 31.10.04 - 17.04.05

Convenient considering Buzz closes on 31st October and they currently cover that route :confused:

Is this runway improvement work being done to allow -800's in there ?

[lod]

It sure is, they will be flying in there until the work is done . It is a very good route for the Ryans so they will be back.

[Brookmans Park]

The ccm from the "nouveau" EEC states are being treated as slave labour, paid approx 1000 eu per month which makes it almost impossible to live and send any money home to the family
unless they either/or live in very crowded accomodation and augment their income

Well informed sources say that some have been fired for lap/table dancing and also in one instance a company pilot complained to ryanair that one lady demanded 100 euros for ........?

[Jack The Lad]

I told Chickens that I would keep out of this, in the hope that you guys would discuss sensibly; I've heard so much nonsense now, that all bets are off.

You moan that you get no coffee, no water, blah blah, blah. Why don't you guys just leave? There are plenty that will take your place. Regardless what you say, you earn more than most in this industry and if the other guys here really understood what you take home in your pay packet then you would have no sympathy whatsoever. Pay for your medicals, sim, blah, blah. You are on the top scale of pilot earnings in the EU.

You wanna give that up? Many waiting eagerly to take your place. Maybe you should have some sympathy for your 'brothers' in MYT. Not heard a peep of support from any of you for your poor old MYT guys. Don't be surprised when they step in your shoes. But then again, you can blame your woes on BALPA, if you like. And, you really want to fight to get them to represent you?

Why not just give me 0.25% of your salary and in return I'll promise not to screw you....LOL

[GGV]

You are on the top scale of pilot earnings in the EU.I presume you are relying on creative Ryanair documentation and figures to make this preposterous statement. Regular readers will know your form and likely future contribution here.

Your excuse for returning is the failure to "discuss sensibly". Can one presume that you are to be the judge of that?

[FlyingIrishman]

Jack The Lad,

Yes, granted, the money is good but a) I've yet to see anyone in the company earning 100K a year and b) in other airlines, people with similar pay to ours only fly 500 hours a year AND have things like crew meals, uniform, medical reimbursements, car park passes, company ID's, etc., etc. included in the package which amounts to way more than the 3% granted to us.

As for people wanting to get out, many have headed for sunnier climates and there will be more to come as the industry picks up. The pool for good, quality pilots is drying up so if you think it's a case of simply replacing good, loyal people with sub standard contractors, you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

People just want to be treated with the respect they deserve, in a company where it is frustrating to see that the current culture developing results in good workmanship and loyalty mean nothing.

[Jack The Lad]

GGV

I know exactly what you guys earn. Shall I publish it here? If I do, then you can reckon on loosing a lot of support here in the EU. Your call, my friend.

Yes, its my call to judge when I return to this nonsense. I've sat idly by watching you 'poor old darlings' winge and moan. Gloves are off if you like, me old mukka

Flying Irishman

I don\'t have an issue with you, per se. I\'m remarking about your outrageous peers that pontificate here. Yes, we\'ll all smell the coffee and others will have no qualms about paying for their coffee if they choose to order one.

I\'m deadly serious; scupper your own careers if you want to; there are 77 MYT pilots about to enter the market and they never earned anywhere near what the FR pilots do and they will eagerly suck up your jobs and gladly pay for their coffee or take their own bottles of water on board.

I\'ve sat here for months and listened to Chickensfly and Sergeblanco (before he was banned and rose out of the ashes; cloth ears or something) and I watch them wind all of the others up! Silly boys, the lot. Only when yu\'ve lost what you had will you begin to realise what it was worth!

Oh, and by the way...I\'ve got an Air2Bob crew meal for sale. Will anyone give me 50p?...40p?...30p....Nothing?, ok I\'ll put it in the bin and buy meself a sandwich from Sainsbury\'s like most folk do for lunch...Just hope that no-one reckognises me as a pilot. What would become my reputation?

[GGV]

Well Jack, you just post what you want to post. You seem quite keen to do so ... maybe a mite too keen to be entirely all that you seem. However, before you produce the Ryanair propaganda have a quick look at this:

URL=http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145618 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145618)

Remember, if you believe that you have the "real figures" you are by definition wrong. Why? Because there are so many different contracts there are no such things as THE "real figures". So, whatever your figures, specify the number/category of pilots, or type of contract, that your figures apply to.

[Jack The Lad]

GGV

If you want me to read a link, then at least point me to one that works.

Yes, I can post accurate figures of what FR pilots do earn, never mind what contract. Would you like me to?

GGV. Well, I\'ve waited 5 minutes and no reply, even though I can see you watching this thread on line. I\'m off to bed now. Think on and if you like, I\'ll tell all what salaries you guys earn, even without water and little sympathy blankets.

Watch the FR HR department get deluged by lots very experienced jet pilots from MYT!

[FreeSpeed]

Jack the Lad

Go ahead and post the contract conditions and salaries, as there are so many and so varied I'd love to see them all

[unwiseowl]

I think you work for Airtours? Why do you want to attack the Ryan Air pilots? What do you have against them? Please publish the Ryan salary scales, all of them and stick to the facts.

[Maxiumus]

Nice one, Jack the Lad, lets have some guys who will lose jobs then be content with the sub-standard BS on offer at RYR. Do you want to encourage RYR to further lower T's and C's??

I find it it very hard to believe that experienced people coming from MYT would be "gladly" bend over and take MOL's offerings.

Maybe if we learnt to stop denigrating each other, things would improve. Yeah, I wish.

[clohessy the claw]

what the hell are you on about,your threads are all over the place.if you can post the ryanair terms and conditions on pprune.i will resign,give you my job at fr or to one of those poor myt boys you are so concerned about.you can earn the big bucks and be happy.i think i am safe enough though,because not even those within ryanair know what the contracts.you obviously don't have much interaction with fr pilots,try to get out more!

sleep well jack.

[Hold_the_front_page]

Jack The Lad,

Perhaps you might like to post the salary scales of newly promoted Captains at Buzz Stansted then ? (Soon to be flying RYR 800's for hundreds of pounds a month less than their peers !)

What was it MOL was saying about Ryanair staff being paid more than companies where they had union representation ? .........

[atse]

Clohessy, you asked about BALPA above. Apparently we are to hear something from IALPA and BALPA "before the week is out". Cards are being played "close to the chest" but something is afoot in the near future, even if I have not got the timescale quite right.

[minuteman]

Well at least you stimulated some debate.

But you are all missing the point.

This is not about the amount of money pilots - or any other group in FR for that matter - make in a year.

It's not quibbling by the "most cossetted group of employees" in the world.

This is about :

- the right to be represented collectively

- the right to a common contract for each group of staff

- the right to work in a company without consistently looking over one's shoulder.

Comparison between MYT and FR are immaterial. I have no idea what work BALPA undertook for those pilots. But I reckon that there were no communications from management to those pilots à la the FR ones we have previously read about on internet forums.

The guys in FR have a simple choice. If they want to do something about their situation, IALPA and BALPA are there to assist. Good luck to you all!

[GGV]

Exceedingly well said Minuteman. That’s it in a nutshell.

[Basil]

MOL just interviewed on R4.

Precis as follows:

"Action by BALPA (British Airways Low Pay Association) members caused recent delays & cancellations.
No objection to union membership."

Both news to me :confused:

[fireflybob]

Here's the link to listen to that Radio 4 interview with MOL:-

MOL (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?pm)

Disappointed to note that a BALPA spokesman was not asked for comment to counter some of MOL's comments - perhaps they declined the offer?

[Hold_the_front_page]

A rather lacklustre reply from MOL I would say, not his usual self at all ....

See my previous post as to whether pilots enjoy better pay than with other companies !

[BEagle]

Hardly came over as an airline executive, more like a silly schoolboy with jokes no-one found amusing.

[Maxiumus]

The Irish Times has today revealed FR pilots are to set up their own union, representing all bases, with links to BALPA and IALPA. According to the report, more than half of FR pilots are already in BALPA/IALPA.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

This is the article:

23 September 2004
Irish Times

A number of pilots at Ryanair are preparing to establish their own association through which they can negotiate with the low-cost airlines on terms and conditions.

The Irish Times has learned that the new association, to be called the Ryanair European Pilots Association, will have links with the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) and the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) and will be supported by the European Cockpit Association.

The association is preparing to launch a website for members who will be offered free membership for the first six months.

It is understood that pilots will also retain their membership of the other pilot unions.

Pilot sources suggest that the move to establish a Europe-wide association is an attempt to create a wide forum that will span various EU states and represent pilots from Ryanair's 11 bases.

Last month, the European Transport Workers' Federation, which has been studying Ryanair's work practices, launched a Europe-wide campaign agains the airline and has established a website where staff can post their grievances.

Ryanair chief executive Mr O'Leary has stated publicly that the airline has no objection to any of its people joining a trade union.

Yesterday, a Ryanair spokeswoman said Ryanair's pilots were the best paid in Europe and were unlikely to seek IALPA's help "to get them lower pay and inferior pay increases and job losses that IALPA members members in Aer Lingus had suffered".

Last month Ryanair's head of operations, Mr David O'Brien, had an information flyer compiled by IALPA and BALPA removed from the pilot's pigeon holes, according to pilot sources at the airline.

He subsequently wrote to all of its Irish pilots to warn them that this campaign "has already put your careers at risk yet again".

More than half of Ryanair's pilots have joined BALPA and IALPA, according to the unions.

[BEagle]

Interesting that, with the FTSE 100 now some 2.7% above where it stood in January 2004, Ryanair's shares have fallen by 44.2% over the same period.....

Ah - but paying €7 to watch Ryanair's IFE will soon turn that round. To be sure, to be sure.....

[Dishdasha]

cancellations yep - FR908 (ORK-STN) on 22 August cancelled because the incoming a/c diverted to shannon, all other inbounds landed and the ceiling looked to be 5000ft. All the PAX could see the aircraft circling overhead

Disgraceful behaviour - all the pax or 'self loading freight' LOL were bused to shannon.

I mean if pilots are so pissed at Ryanair mgmt. they should leave and join someone else --

lots of folks would love to do this job -- it's still one of the best out there - even if you do have to fly to Cork/Ballygarvan from time to time.

Put pulling fake diverts on your employer is just plain wrong

[bacardi walla]

Do you know the real reason behind this divert? I guess not. My deduction is that when this flight made an approach, it was below limits and no doubt the a/c had minimum fuel onboard and diverted as a result. It ain't rocket science. Get the facts and then publish it. If no facts available, keep quiet. Do you honestly think a crew would divert just for the sake of p155ing off RYR management ?

[Aloue]

Dishdasha, rather than use your lightening powers of deduction to come up with a rather peculiar (if not insulting) explanation, perhaps you would do everyone a favour and try the following. Contact Ryanair, tell them your story and ask them for an explanation. When you get it, come back here and ask for any clarifications you may need. (When you post again you might also explain why you have registered on PPRUNE in September to complain about a flight that took place 4 weeks ago in October. Why the delay?).

Finding out the facts might be tedious and a lot more difficult than coming up with the kind of nonsense you have posted about Ryanair pilots (without even producing any evidence
for your bizarre notion!).

[Dishdasha]

well you know, fact is the a/c diverted on pilot discretion, and he made a clearly wrong call, even the tower were very surprised.

you see the problem is that whining in a public forum, you have a built in assumption that the actions of all your 'professional colleagues' is above reproach, and that all of their motives are above board - especially on this board.

well I have news for you - they aren't

I remember personally sitting in Air UK offices at Stansted, with senior Air UK management casting asperions on Ryanair safety and on the professionalism of the IAA.

They laughed out loud at the opinion that FR would be bigger than UK at Stansted ever!

Yeah MOL is a bit of an idiot because he probably doesn't realise that some of the sychophantic management copy his bullying style in inappropriate fashion - I'm sure that will change soon, and that erosion of T&Cs will be spotted to be incompatible with running a non union shop.

on the other hand I'm sure that you've all figured out by now that if the Union get to negotiate for the pilot group, that 'hardliners' will ground the airline AS SOON AS POSSIBLE

Some of the rubbish here by 'Professional Pilots' is massively out of order, so you've got to choose I guess between the devil you know (MOL and his out of control flunkies) and the devil you don't (Syndicalist Union Flag carrier protectionism)

Its up to you

[lamina]

"well you know, fact is the a/c diverted on pilot discretion, and he made a clearly wrong call,-"

I've seen some ridiculous statments on this board but surely this takes the cake. Not too sure as to the runway length at ORK but I suspect an anti-skid failure or numerous other minor technical failures could involve a prudent divertion. Bottom line is we don't know and I really don't care!

Now back to the original topic.

[atse]

Dishdasha from the content of your post I suspect that you really don't need anybody to remind you that - as the warning at the bottom of each PPRUNE page makes clear - some of the posters here are not what they seem.

You are not what you seemed from your first post. You have now added some interesting information and propaganda. What you did not chose to to do was to provide any evidence for your slur.

Unless you can support your claims it should be "back to the topic" as lamina says. I join with lamina in hoping that nobody provides you with any encouragement to start up a new anti-Ryanair pilot rant, regardless of the provocation you offer.

[Jack The Lad]

Dish Dash

I have to concur with the quite rightly 'outraged' responses of the FR pilots. Some of them may appear 'daft' to some of us here in connection with their fetish to be seduced by the likes of BALPA, but I believe them one and all to be fundamentally 'professional pilots'. If they circled and then diverted, than I'm sure they had a damn good and explainable reason to do so. Please don't demean the professionalism of these guys.

They may get a bit hot under the collar about MOL and all, but that is a different issue.

How the F%^& do you know they made the wrng call? How the F%$£"* would ATC know they made the wrong call?

Dish Dash, keep the comments relevant please?

[lod]

Maybe something to do with it only being CAT 1 in ork.

[delwy]

Dishdasha says,

Yeah MOL is a bit of an idiot because he probably doesn't realise that some of the sychophantic management copy his bullying style in inappropriate fashion - maybe dishdasha could clarify for us what part of the style in question is appropriate?

[Dishdasha]

Its quiet OK for MOL to 'bully' his senior management, thats what they sign up for, and they should - although they often don't - have the nouse to shout back - thats the real weakness at FR - poor sub MOL management

Its inappropriate for any of them to bully more junior staff, doesn't make sense - and is clearly sign of a personality disorder
particularly cabin crew, I'm surprised that flight crew get so het up about it.

however a CEO shouting at this senior group is often appropriate! O'Leary really doesn't take himself seriously enough to believe his own BS, although I guess he doesn't suffer fools gladly.

[GGV]

You have an interesting take on bullying Dishdasha. It also raises the suspicion that you do not really know what the experience of bullying is actually like. One way or another the defence of "acceptable bullying" you present would be unlikely to work in a tribunal, should you ever have the opportunity to try it!

[chikenscanfly]

Dishdasha,

I feel you may have a somewhat naieve view on the management style that takes place at RYR.

MOL does not just scream, he fires. If any manager is found to have done something which cost the company any amount in loss of revenue by an honest mistake, that person is very likely to be fired that very moment.

If your job is on the line, youll threaten those beneath you to keep yours. MOL is simply abusing human nature of self preservation to squeeze out every last ounce of what he believes is efficiency.

Unfortunately, efficiency tends to degrade when individuals fear responsibility.

And Jack, before I forget. Thank you for raising several important issues regarding the obviously far better improved state of the FR pilot, especially in comparison to our MYT colleagues - I'm sure they take charm in your pity.

But tell me this; If so many people are queing to join RYR, then why are our new experienced colleagues without 737 experience?

As for MYT - is not BALPA arranging a deal with management?

[Jack The Lad]

Chickens; You're welcome :D

Have a look, as no doubt you have, at the MYT post, and once that awful mess has been sorted and experienced pilots do loose their jobs, you can count on the fact that many of them will be jostling for yours!

Sad fact of life; maybe you don't value your job, but someone without one will snap it up in a minute. Sad fact, but it is a 'dog eat dog' world out there, which you may find out very soon.

As for BALPA, just look at the disarray that MYT's whole debacle has caused/failed to rectify. You now have a situation where pilot is pitched against pilot and a completely divided pilot group. It's very sad, but it proves what I said to you a long while back. You can hang yourself out to dry as a martyr if you like, but don't expect the support you are trying to 'rally' here, when the chips are down.

I still say that it is a bitter irony that you guys are willing to take the chance of 'hanging yourselves' for the want to be recognised by BALPA, when others around you are proving that BALPA can and does seal your fate without consultation and are resigning. Worse than that, they will eagerly take your money to help them achieve that! (a fool and his money, springs to mind). Maybe fast women and slow greyhounds would be an entirely more satisfying (and healthy) pursuit! I know which I would prefer.

How many instances do you really need to witness, before the truth 'smacks you straight between the eyes'? Like mine, I bet your Dad told you many times that to do certain things would only cause you personal grief and anguish, but what did you do?

'I told you so' doesn't really help, after the event.

Now, I'll retire again gracefully to my armchair for a while and watch the sorry mess unfold.

Chickens, feel free to call on my advice any time you need it :D

[Aloue]

Jack de Lad. You certainly don't sound like a pilot. In fact you sound like the opposite on close reading.

Are you even a pilot? Are you perhaps from Mullingar? Any chance of an honest answer to these questions?

[chikenscanfly]

Jack,

I've been in the business long enough now to not need to call on the advice of those whose allegiance is to say the least questionable.
As for my paternal routes, they are far beyond the boundries of your comment. My father was a wise enough man to not impose limits on his belief in me.

The amount of responsibility you place on BALPA for the events taking place at MYT only underlines your attempts to hold back the already overwhelming tides against your favour.
MYT overexpanded. Without the adequate support nor increased loads to fill the extra seats, the events of current became inevitable. It is silly to place blame on BALPA for this. BALPA managed themselves as a fair-minded mediator between the company and the pilot body, organising the best way that suited both parties to retrench the excess employees.

I won't even begin to describe how this would happen otherwise in RYR.

BALPA isn't a way to keep our jobs forever. Only a fool would believe this. But BALPA is a way to hang on to what dignity and benefits we have left, before more is taken away and we are forced to pack up and go.

Understand that intimidation can only go so far.

Yes, there is no doubt others will continue to fill the gap. But as time progresses at what level of experience? With what background?
The cuts of today will mean the loss of Ryanair tommorow.
Perhaps there are enough people left who have hope in this company that they worked hard to build, and would rather see it succeed than fed to the dogs.

The pilots at MYT are not dog eat dog, Jack. Perhaps if you would turn your chair around in that office of yours you would see that the overwhelming majority of individuals do not turn on each other for their own benefit.

The chips are down. And fancy that it appears that already over 50% of the company have risen to become martyrs for the cause.
And this with the support of the international transport federation...

I only hope my posting here would have provided others the appropriate couter insight against your banter. I wouldn't want you to think I wasted so much of my time solely for your personal enjoyment.

Furthermore, best of luck recruiting MYT guys through their own forum.

[chikenscanfly]

Now that this forum has also turned to silence, one wonders what the next step on either side will be

[Jack The Lad]

Chickens

The only reason its silent is because you and your mate segeblanco haven't been stirring the big pudding again. Shame that sergy was banned, because that leaves you alone on the 'flight watch'of this post. Don't worry, I've done you another favour....post is back to the top!

Btw...say hi to sergy for me...I suspect he isn't more than a couple of feet away from you, if you get my drift...:rolleyes:

[Dishdasha]

Great EZY flight this evening - as a pax- to LGW, lots of friendly cabincrew, flightdeck crew also.

Just couldn't figure out why the a/c was only 50% full

[chikenscanfly]

EZY is doing very well compared to last year... funny that they should have union recognition.

Which route was it dishadish?

Jack, retire to the armchair... Unless you can show us your alternative solutions for the problems we face, your contribution is neither necessary, constructive, nor invited.

[clohessy the claw]

118 got your number.

[FRed up]

Is any one else sick fed up of seeing BALPA's advertisement for Ryanair Pilots on PPrune???


" ryanair pilots , we're acting "

no yere bloody not , we've heard nothing from ye in a long time
just what do ye spend yere time doing ???
counting all the new subscriptions ???

BALPA was asked by the ryanair pilots to help stop the rot in the company which is affecting the airline industry as a whole , so why dont ye get up off yere @rse's and do the job we are paying ye for ???

the longer ye leave this drag on the less support ye will have ,
whether its thru apathy or people leaving , this little battle is yere's to loose and ye are doing a fine job of it ...

[irishmafia]

keep hearing rumours about some iminent action, believe it when I see it.

[RVR800]

Industrial Action would really dent the bottom line I suppose that would result in the competition closing in on them. Nobody wins.

Having said that people get to a point when they see red:\

[FRed up]

there may not be any need for industrial action , why dont BALPA/ IALPA , line up a few people from different industries and ask them do they have to pay for transport / accomodation / food for work training courses and recurrent training
get all of this on to one of the lunch time radio talkshows such as marion finucane or dessie boy or pat kenny
now sit back and watch MOL squirm
lets see him justify that one on live radio

this is the very least BALPA /IALPA should be doing
stirring up trouble and keeping MOL off balance

where have they gone????????????????????

[chikenscanfly]

Would it be time perhaps for the media scourers, whome we know utilise PPRune as a possible source to find a story, to use what they have read here to do their own bit of investigative reporting?

Or are the payoffs to keep them from doing so coming out of what was once our water allowance?