EVERYBODY OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[squawk 6789]

:mad: :mad; :mad: :mad:

NATS has made its "final" pay offer. We are to be offered more bonuses and the 21 month "pleeeeeeeaase don't cause trouble for us as we try to privatise you" deal!
The figures are cr*p- 3% until this Dec, 2.25 'til next!
Less than a spine point for OJTIs ( on the 3 scale at least) and more bonuses, including one for reduced delays! Like we have control over FMU in Brussels or we could shift an extra departure off 27R if someone slipped you an extra fiver!!
Management are showing what they think of our true worth, we, the "best controllers in the world"! And quite frankly folks, it ain't much!
We want consolidated, PENSIONABLE pay increases- if the money's there for bonuses it can be found for the equivalent rise in basic pay. Think how much easier this would have all been had they just offered 6 or 7% 5 months ago!
I urge you to get onto your IPMS Rep immediately and let him know what you think- and if you're satisfied with it when you see the details then you're easily conned!

:mad: :mad; :mad: :mad:

[cossack]

Its utter crap isn't it?
Unconsolidated this, uncontrollable bonus that and peanuts for OJTIs dependant on results!
You want us to accept this crock of sh*t without a whimper - think again!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the time my friends, this is the time.
Come on IPMS show us what you can do. You know that this won't get through a ballot. ATCOs be strong, be tough don't let the b*stards get you down!!!!!!!!

[Asda]

Well, it's not that good is it?

3% doesn't make me feel particularly rewarded for the increase in traffic over the last year (7%?)

A non pensionable bonus if the cost per flight hits a target, (just who is setting these targets - oh of course, silly me!). Now how am I supposed to help influence the cost per flight anyway, use less pens? I already shift as much traffic as I can.

Another non pensionable bonus if flights per employee targets (see above) are met. Now I'm supposed to reduce staffing levels as well as separate aircraft. Then the average delay per flight has to be less than 1.75 minutes. I am willing to be corrected on this small point but I believe the delay management (quietly and in a dark corner) find acceptable is less than 3 minutes and that their best case scenario is about 1.9 minutes. This is without the effect of conversion training at NERC which without doubt will increase the overall delays in the UK next year. So we won't be seeing that bonus.

And talking of training an extra (non pensionable) bonus if the conversion training starts on time. Well I'm sure that everyone at SCATCC, Manc and airfields will be working their hardest and using all the influence they have in this area to ensure that this training starts on time. Remember, EGPH we're counting on you. And of course that does assume that training is physically able to proceed as there are still some major areas of concern that may prevent the technical handover. Obviously once I've finished my shift, I pop over to systems and give them a hand to get it finished on time, but it may not be enough.

3% for training? perhaps it's just me but training someone takes a lot more than just an extra 3% effort.

Is this what we keep our powder dry for? Please excuse the cynicism.

[Data Dad]

ASDA - you've forgotten the 2% for agreeing that we all think this is a wonderful pay deal! :)

Remember, the OJTI payment is UP TO 3% subject to meeting targets - is this individual targets?
"I am going to train him/her today"
"No, I am"
"No your not"
"Yes I am"

BUT I believe it's unit targets so if you work somewhere there is not much OJT going on - forget 3% you MIGHT get 1% or less.

And don't forget, your union is recommending this :mad: :mad: :mad:

[420kts 250ft]

I Echo every comment made before, although an extra 3% OJTI near the top of the scale is welcoming, a "Partially Achieved" in CATC terms.

THIS IS A MESSAGE TO ALL ATCO'S ATSA's ATE's.......DO NOT ACCEPT THIS OFFER !!!!!
VOTE NO

IPMS, I'm ashamed that youve rolled over so easily AGAIN. This is our last chance for recognition PRE-PPP don't waste it...VOTE NO

[Wee Jock]

I always do. Who keeps voting yes every year, for heavens sake?

[get'em to heaven & back]

For those that don't know, you can e-mail your opinions directly to the BEC @
[email protected]

Please do or else we'll be left with this pile of horse manure as the end result. Don't get me wrong, 3% on basic plus 2% for accepting plus 3(sort-of)% for OJTI plus 0.75% for delay improvements plus another 2.25% bonus (totalling 11% I do declare) is not to be sniffed at but I will most certainly vote against it because of
a) too many bonuses which are all out of my control;
b) these bonuses are not relected in your bread & butter basic pay which affects the impact of EVERY subsequent pay increase;
c) these bonuses do nothing to increase my pension (double-edged, this one- there's less money in the CAAPS to go missing pst-PPP);
d) OJTI is a bit grey at the minute but if it is in any way linked to validations at your unit then for anyone outside the centres it's a pittance. And do you get this every year or is it payable on a yearly, individually negotiated basis?
e) as previouly asked, who is going to set the targets on which these bonuses are based? Not anyone with a hint of impartiality!

Please don't let your Manager or your IPMS rep be allowed to think that we will swallow this- if they can afford 11% in bonuses then they can afford 11% on BASIC! Bottom line, that's what we want! It's on the table, the money is there so give it to us in a form that we want (acknowledging an adjustment is required to allow for NATS part of the pesion contribution).
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[identnospeed]

420/250

IPMS has not rolled over. It either recommends the offer as the best it will get thru NEGOTIATION, or it doesn't.

It is OUR job as members to take it a step further and say we don't think that negotiation has worked and we vote NO. And we make it clear that we will not accept being re-ballotted like 1998.

Then we can strap ourselves in for industrial action.

If some of our colleagues want to vote yes then it is their fault for being easy to please.

Threatening industrial action, then having half the members wobble when it comes to the real action makes us look like morons.

A union is only as strong as its members. If the majority of those members are not strong then we will fail in getting our just rewards !

Personally, I think the offer sucks and will be voting accordingly.

INS

[identnospeed]

Postscript to my last,

If you want things to change in the union, volunteer to be reps, lots of jabber on a noticeboard achieves a big fat diddly !

You only lose the equivalent of a cycles leave each year to try and help your fellow colleagues !

INS

[WonkyVectors]

Thanks Nats, for making me feel really appreciated
:mad: :mad: NOT!!!! :mad: :mad:

Once again our management have seen fit to disrespect all of us with this pitiful and insulting offer.

Someone, somewhere, is taking the piss and I,like many others, have decided ENOUGH is ENOUGH!!

Message to Nats management;

This year you have offered 3% rise + 2% cos this is such a "great??" deal, so i suggest your MINIMUM offer in basic rise should be at least 5%. This is before we get to the bonuses, which we won't see a penny of until around early next summer anyway. If you wish to show your appreciation for the incredible hard work and dedication we all put in every day then by all means do so and pay us a bonus but, however, do NOT, repeat, DO NOT put it in with the pay deal, especially as the conditions for the bonuses are targets already set by you and which practically all of us have no control over.
As for the OJTI 3%, I suggest you come back with an offer that reflects the work involved, not an offer with strings attached meaning a very few people will actually see anywhere near 3%.


I hope all staff will join me and those above in giving this insulting offer the treatment it deserves, if you don't I'd be really interested in hearing your views.
Oh, by the way IPMS, thanks for trying to shoot us in the foot by recommending the offer, my e-mail is on its way!

[250 kts]

The offer goes to the BEC on Wednesday. Rumour has it that Manch & Scatcc are reasonably happy. IPMS reps cannot go around recommending rejection as this can be construed as industrial action.WE are the members and it is down to US to tell our reps how we feel.
Some posters here seem to feel happy with the OJTI payment , but look at it this way: we work approx 1400 hours/year. We train 50% of that time. Someone on top of scale will get about £1700 pa gross, works out at about £2.42 per hour GROSS.Still a good deal???
Something else is that you will have the option to opt not to continue as an active OJTI. Is it worth all the aggro for this pittance - no. Should the deal go through then if enough say we no longer wish to participate as an active mentor, (especially members of the NTT) , then NATS will have little choice except to come with a revised offer. The only problem is if NATS want an excuse for a further delay to NERC-worth the risk I think.
Come on everyone , we all know the mess they're in, let's just for once stick together and show our wonderful bosses just what we think.

[Shazbat]

At the risk of shoving my head above the parapet again and getting it shot off, I'd just like to re-iterate what 250 has said. IF the pay deal goes through ( I F ) then one always has the option of saying .......

.....hmmmmmmm.......training ???????....
NO - but thank you anyway !!

I wonder how long before the cretins would start to squirm !! And as for laying the blame for the NERC delay on us - well, I should HOPE that Gwyneth, at least, will be able to see the truth !!

[Spotter]

It strikes me as odd that the union see fit to recommend acceptance of a deal which seeks to introduce financial considerations (ie prospective bonus payments) into the decision making equation of operational ATCO's.

"Gonna have to get one away in this gap or my bonus might vanish"

I also find it disappointing that the union sees fit to recommend a bonus aimed at increasing the number of flights per employee. Don't we work hard enough already? (No need for any managers/wannabes to answer that one).

And why should any of us who have no influence over the progress of NERC get any reward for its achievement of targets, & conversely why should we who have had nothing to do with it be penalised if it fails to meet those targets.

I could go on, but for now I'll take a breather.

"relax....imagine a mountain stream burbling down the grassy hillside, the blue sky & the
birds singing & the muffled cries of the little sh!t whose head you're holding under the water"

That's better.

[No speed Restriction]

250 kts..........

Don't be so sure that Manch and Scatcc will be head over heels with this pants offer ;) For once we need to stick together and show the NATS management what there most "unappreciated asset" can do ;)

[intentionally blank]

As I understand it the Union reccomends not what it thinks is fair, but what is the best offer it thinks it can get.
Some of the new offer includes subsuming some of the current bonus into basic pay (by the looks of things) which is a start but there are loads....


Oh f*ck it, ok it is still sh*t.

It is still way below the average pay rises but don't even dream about getting anything better. Yes if we were to strike now would be the time (pre PPP) but no-one will come out.

They will all see BIG LUMP SUM (just before Xmas), panic and vote yes. It happens every time why even pretend this will be any different?

PS just in case some of you thought differently I think you will find that the rules for industrial action are very strict. I don't think we would be allowed to strike over PPP. It would not be a valid reason that your employer is being sold (it would probably count as a political act which Maggie banned). I think.

Striking over pay.... well that is different and it would make us awfully hard to sell but why delude yourselves?

It will never happen and this will be voted in.

[passepartout]

ASDA>>>>Please in any of your responses do not use EGPH as an example, I realise your reply was light hearted , but you make a unit which was 90 percent behind rejection on the last ballot seem as though it was one which turned over and got it belly tickled....this is not accurate or fair and coming from a unit that in the end influenced the ultimate acceptance of a crap pay offer is particularly unreasonable.

[Asda]

I apologise if I caused inadvertant offence, I really had not intention of suggesting EGPH was a unit that would just roll over about anything. Actually my point, reiterated by Spotter was that it seems rather strange that agencies that have no direct influence over the commencement of conversion training for NERC should have a financial reward/penalty for it. And if anybody out there doesn't know what conversion training for NERC is - that's my point. I really meant no offence to any other unit, especially EGPH

[Shazbat]

"relax....imagine a mountain stream burbling down the grassy hillside, the blue sky & the
birds singing & the muffled cries of the little sh!t whose head you're holding under the water"

Hey Spotter, c'mon......I've only got TWO hands !!

Vote NO.....you know it makes sense !

[cossack]

No speed Restriction,
Your watch probably doesn't like it, I know mine doesn't. So that's two out of five. Anyone else want to show us the way the wind is blowing at MACC and ScOACC?


[This message has been edited by cossack (edited 23 September 2000).]

[not a scooby]

who said we were happy with this at scacc?
mind you we never have any meetings so who knows.
obviously my understanding of english is somewhat lacking, did our union not use terms like " unacceptable" & " failing to meet members expectations", obviously a half percent negotiated rise over 5 months of talks easily obviates that!

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

We certainly ain't happy at MACC who is voting yes??? LATCC?

[Sector29again]

I heard last night the union want us to accept they say its worth about 15% over 21 months all bundled together!!!!

The problem I think is the high up members of the union are their for their own betterment not that of their members!!!

[Bright-Ling]

Do the rises include T&D?

[Not Long Now]

MACC 29, on behalf of everyone I've spoken to at LATCC, "It's crap", so no, it wont be LATCC accepting it.

[WonkyVectors]

All units seem to be in agreement

When do we down tools?

[OrsonCart]

I will accept a pay rise of 15% consolidated on to my salary for the due period that the claim is for.

Sadly the union is reported to be saying that the deal is worth the above amount. It is not, a single bonus is valuable, but no substitute for a percentage on the annual salary, now if all the bonus (S) was consolidated inc OJTI then........

[MACC 29 all the time!!!!]

I think T&D was a separate issue wasn't it?

More importantly I get another £1 luncheon voucher each month ;)

[Spotter]

Bright-Ling...T & D should be just about sorted apart from the issue of backdating for the people who were on it at its inception. The money may or may not be in this month's pay packet. (I haven't been able to get a definite answer).

The annual pay deal (or 21 months this time) will when finally agreed be applied to salaries as at 1st April 2000. (ie when the T&D money is effective from).

So...you get the T&D rise & then the annual rise on top of that (eventually).

Hope that helps

[monkey boy]

Why do we bothye paying the union when it appears all they are able to do is reduce our wages, year on year. It is my experience that all unions are this effective.

[New Boy]

Just about to climb aboard NATS compliments of the Luton transfer. I have to say the offer is very complicated, especially to someone who is not completely up to speed with all the ins and outs of it all. I've read all the topic but can someone post a precis of what the issues are?

[250 kts]

Oh come on Monkey, how many times do I have to say this : YOU ARE THE UNION. If you're not happy, tell your rep he's there to represent you , and in my experience , that is what they do on the BEC.
If your unit is not happy then pull your finger out and ensure that the members are represnted properly. If they're not, then you need to do something positive at your unit.

[identnospeed]

250,

Couldn't have put it better myself.

The moment it comes to positive action, eg. rep-ing for the watch, the gob$hites clam up tighter than a camel's arse in a sandstorm.

Its easy to spout off on pprune, but it achieves SQUAT !

INS

[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 01 October 2000).]

[RogerOut]

So now anyone who is not happy with the union is a gob*****? Tell me this, what have our illustrious reps achieved with regard to PPP? Zero!

[monkey boy]

All valid points above received and understood.

However problems do present themselves when the Union reps are voicing opinions which are their own, and not those of the other unit members. This at best gives misleading signals to the management, and puts us back at square one, along with giving the union a bad image in the eyes of both the organ grinders, and the monkeys.

As I said before, I have experienced similar problems with the unions in my pre ATC 'career', and no amount of quiet plaintive pleading could get the union reps to see that some change at least, is for the better, and not everyone is against it.


------------------
If it aint broke, break it.

[Identified]

Just a quick question from the Military side of the house: When is your pay Ballot?

[OrsonCart]

To those who think that their union does nothing, please put your name forward to represent if YOU think that you can do a better job!

NATS has a new breed of HR management who are worldly wise, therefore the union reps negotiating need your support. It is no good being a union member if you do not support those negotiating for you.

I know for a fact that ALL the unions representing staff within NATS have put a mountain of work into PPP, just ask your own MP?

Stop bad mouthing and get pro-active!!

[identnospeed]

Roger out,

NO my friend, not everyone who complains about the union is a gob$hite. Those that do it in a relatively constructive way and who understand the limitations of the unpaid reps who give up about 6 days of their free-time per year to carry out union business on your behalf, are not the people who I am referring to.

As an ex-rep I know the ***** that one has to put up with from time to time.

By gob$hites I meant those mutually exclusive of the above group.

Hopefully you are one of the former not the latter and maybe you personally could help to change things within the union if you feel you are not getting the service you want !

INS



[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 02 October 2000).]

[This message has been edited by identnospeed (edited 02 October 2000).]

[OrsonCart]

Rumour has it that the recent offer made by management will be endorsed by the ATCO union!

[cxi]

true rumour

[squawk 6789]

FALSE!!! my understanding is that the bec are NOT recommending acceptance- they are leaving you to make up your own mind based on the facts that will be presented to you shortly.

and a word of temperance to the unhappy- if you vote against this deal you had better be prepared to walk out over it. there's no point in protest voting, we all look stupid if we vote against the "final offer" but then also vote against industrial action subsequently. think long and hard about this one, guys & girls! think what the sun & the mirror will make of people on latcc atco1 salary turning down those sorts of %s. if, however you feel that linking our pay to private-sector style performance-related bonuses is a step in the wrong direction, then........
like i said if you are NOT prepared to walk you MUST vote to accept.

[Asda]

I don't think the first action would or should be a walk out.

We already have a strong vote of favour of some sort of action over the OJTI issue and that is part of the pay deal on offer. Training ban? Disruption of unpaid duties? And I don't really think that management using this as an issue to blame us over NERCs delay is an issue. Management blame us and what? They still have a centre that doesn't work, an outstanding pay deal and an even more hostile staff.

Nor do I really think public support is important - the issues are complex and I doubt The Sun or The Mail will cover the situation in depth, so lack of public support is probably inevitable. But since any major disruption, if it got that far, would undoubtably be short lived as heads will be knocked together rather than the airlines lose millions in lost revenue. I agree, if the union recommends (or not) agreement and members vote against, then they should be prepared to do 'something' rather than 'nothing' to support the union.

[squawk 6789]

thought i would repeat part of an earlier post on this resurrected thread- given my point, i feel a reminder for some people may be relevant.
"when do we walk? there are legalities to be looked at but ipms etc should be doing their damndest to get us out the door at each and EVERY opportunity from now on. we played ball with them over pay (much to my personal disgust but anyway) and most of the dissenting voices on this site cited ppp as (rightly) the bigger fight and to save our thunder for that issue."
well......................?