Two Russian pax a/c crashed within minutes of each other

[Manutara]

Reports just coming in of a crash in Russia's Tula region, south of Moscow, involving yet another Tu-154, all according to the BBC. 54 pax and 8 crew on board apparently...anyone have any more info?

[IBMN]

MOSCOW, Aug 25 (Reuters) - Air controllers on Tuesday lost
contact with an airplane with 44 passengers on board, Interfax
news agency reported.
It quoted Emergencies ministry as saying contacts with
Tu-154 flying from Moscow to the Black Sea resort of Sochi were
lost at 1900 GMT when it was expected to be 140 km (90 miles)
from the southern city of Rostov-on-Don.
Earlier Russian news agencies said that around the same time
another Russian passenger plane with more than 50 passengers on
board went missing near the town of Tula, south of Moscow.

[Terror_is_firmer]

ITN have just reported that 2 airliners have gone missing in Russia. One is believed to have crashed and was believed to have had 60 people on board.

Sorry. Just seen the other post

[johnwalton]

ITN reporting 62 people, 54 + 8 crew. They are also reporting that a second airliner has "gone missing in the country"

[LatviaCalling]

So, what are we talking about here? Two 154s down, or a screw up in the Reuters story?

[Terror_is_firmer]

Sounds like 1 x 154 has gone down. And TASS are reporting that another aircraft crashed at the sametime.

[IBMN]

UPDATE 2-Plane crashes in Russia
(Adds missing plane report, changes dateline from LONDON)
MOSCOW, Aug 24 (Reuters) - A plane carrying 62 people
crashed in Russia's Tula region south of Moscow on Tuesday,
Itar-Tass reported.
The Tu-154 aircraft, with 54 passengers and eight crew on
board, crashed near the village of Buchalki, some 180 km (110
miles) south of Moscow, the agency said, quoting a local civil
defence and emergencies official.
In a separate report, Interfax news agency said air
controllers lost contact with a Tu-154 taking 44 passengers from
Moscow to the Black Sea resort of Sochi.
It quoted the Emergencies Ministry as saying contact stopped
at 1900 GMT when it should have been 140 km (90 miles) from the
southern city of Rostov-on-Don.
It was not immediately clear if this was the plane that
crashed near Tula, more than 800 km (500 miles) northeast of
Rostov.
Tupolev's Tu-154 jet remains the standard medium-range
airliner on domestic flights in Russia, according to aviation
websites. Some 48 metres (157 ft) in length, it can carry up to
180 passengers for up to 4,000 km (2,500 miles).

[Airbubba]

The close reported times of the two crashes is most suspicious...

____________________________________________


Two Russian passenger jets crash

Tuesday, August 24, 2004 Posted: 6:04 PM EDT (2204 GMT)

(CNN) -- Two passenger planes have crashed in Russia Tuesday night, Russian officials and a news organization said.

A passenger jet carrying 34 passengers and eight crew members in the Tula region crashed about 160 kilometers (100 miles) south of Moscow, the ministry reported.

A second plane went down about 160 kilometers (100 miles) from Rostov-on-Don, in southern Russia, government-run news agency Ria Novosti reported.

A ministry spokeswoman said she could only confirm that the second plane had been lost to radar.

The first plane disappeared from radar at 10:56 p.m. (2:56 p.m. ET), a ministry spokeswoman said.

The Tupolev-134 had taken off from Moscow's Domodedovo Airport and was en route to Volgograd, in southern Russia.

The second plane, a Tupolev-154, disappeared at 11 p.m. (3 p.m. ET) after having taken off from the same airport en route to Sochi in southern Russia, Ria Novosti reported.

There was no immediate word how many people were aboard the second plane.

The Tupolev-154 is a standard medium-range airliner on domestic flights in Russia, according to aviation websites.

[IBMN]

MOSCOW, Aug 24 (Reuters) - Two Russian passenger planes with
a total of more than 80 people on board went missing within
minutes of each other late on Tuesday and one was confirmed to
have crashed, the Emergencies Ministry said.
A ministry spokeswoman said a three-engine TU-134 with 34
passengers and eight crew flying from Moscow to Volgograd
crashed after contact with it was lost at 2256 Moscow time (1856
GMT).
The wreckage was found near the town of Tula some 150 km (90
miles) south of Moscow.
Just three minutes later, air traffic controllers lost
contact with another passenger plane -- a four-engine TU-154
with 44 passengers and eight crew on board -- flying from Moscow
to the Black Sea resort of Sochi, she said.
Contact was lost as the plane was flying near the southern
city of Rostov-on-Don.
Initially, Itar-Tass news agency said that a TU-154 with 54
passengers and eight crew on board had crashed near Tula.
Tupolev's Tu-154 jet remains the standard medium-range
airliner on domestic flights in Russia, according to aviation
websites. Some 48 metres (157 ft) in length, it can carry up to
180 passengers for up to 4,000 km (2,500 miles).

[Leezyjet]

BBC News 24 just reported that witnesses reported seeing an explosion before the crash, but they didn't specify which crash the report reffered to.

:(

[IBMN]

MOSCOW, Aug 25 (Reuters) - Witnesses saw an explosion on
board a Russian passenger plane just before it crashed late on
Tuesday near the town of Tula, Interfax news agency quoted local
authorities as saying on Wednesday.

[Kalium Chloride]

...three-engine TU-134...

...four-engine TU-154...




Well done Reuters...idiots :rolleyes:

[LatviaCalling]

With continuing battles in Chechnya and the Moscow bus stop bomb explosion, let us not hope...

I would not blame Reuters too much on the number of engines of each aircraft. Remember, it is 2:30 AM in Moscow and they had to get someone out of bed who probably knows s*it all about aircraft types, because as I recall, it is not a 24-hour bureau. I'm sure corrections will be made later when the London editors sift through the stuff.

[cringe]

Airlines and flights - from RIA Novosti (http://www.rian.ru):

Volga-Avia Tu-134, flight 1303 Moscow-Volgograd

Sibir Tu-154, flight 1047 Moscow-Sochi

[Spuds McKenzie]

From DER SPIEGEL:

Zwei russische Passagierflugzeuge abgestürzt

Zwei Flugzeuge vom Typ Tu-154 sind auf dem Weg von Moskau nach Süden abgestürzt. Beide Maschinen verschwanden etwa gleichzeitig vom Radar der Flugüberwachung. Augenzeugen berichteten von einer Explosion vor dem Aufschlag der ersten Maschine.

Moskau - Die erste Maschine schlug in der Region Tula nahe des Dorfes Butschalki rund 180 Kilometer südlich von Moskau auf, sagte ein Sprecher des russischen Ministeriums für Katastrophenschutz der Nachrichtenagentur ITAR-TASS. Rettungskräfte seien auf dem Weg zur Unglücksstelle, hätten den Absturzort aber noch nicht erreicht. An Bord seien 54 Passagiere und 8 Besatzungsmitglieder gewesen.

Das Flugzeug der Gesellschaft "Wolga-Aviaexpress" sei gegen 18 Uhr vom Moskauer Flughafen Domodjedowo abgeflogen, erklärte der Sprecher weiter. Gegen 19 Uhr sei die Maschine vom Radar der Fluglotsen verschwunden. Augenzeugen berichteten, sie hätten eine Explosion gesehen, bevor das Flugzeug auf den Boden aufschlug.

Fast zeitgleich verlor die Flugüberwachung ein zweites Flugzeug vom Bildschirm. Die Maschine vom gleichen Typ sei mit 44 Passagieren auf dem Weg von Moskau an den Kurort Sotschi am Schwarzen Meer gewesen, berichtete das Ministerium für Katastrophenschutz. Der Kontakt sei abgebrochen, als sich die Maschine rund 140 Kilometer südlich der Stadt Rostow am Don befand. Rostow liegt knapp 1.000 Kilometer südlich von Moskau.

In Washington erklärte ein Sprecher des Außenministeriums: "Wir sind offenkundig besorgt über die Nachrichten. Wir verfolgen die Entwicklung genau und versuchen, die Fakten zu ermitteln."

Die Tupolew 154 ist das gebräuchlichste Mittelstreckenflugzeug für Inlandsflüge in Russlands. Die 48 Meter lange Maschine kann bis zu 180 Passagier über rund 4.000 Kilometer transportieren


Translation (with the help of Google :O ) :

Two Russian airplanes of the type Tu-154 fell on the way from Moscow to the south. Both machines disappeared about at the same time from the radar of the air traffic control. Eye-witnesses reported of an explosion before the impact of the first machine. The first machine crashed in the region of Tula close to the villageof Butschalki approximately 180 kilometers south of Moscow, a speaker of the Russian Ministry for disaster control told the press agency Itar tass. Rescue forces are on the way to the crash site. There were 54 passengers and 8 crew members on board. The airplane of the company "Volga Aviaexpress" departed at 6pm from the Muscovite airport Domodjedowo. Around 7pm the machine disappeared off the radar of air traffic control. Eye-witnesses reported to have seen an explosion, before the airplane impacted on the ground. Nearly at the same time air traffic control lost a second airplane off radar. The machine of the same type was with 44 passengers on the way from Moscow to the health resort Sotschi at the black sea, reported the Ministry for disaster control. The contact broke off, when the machine was approximately 140 kilometers south the city Rostow at the Don. Rostow lies about 1,000 kilometers south of Moscow. In Washington a speaker of the State Department explained: "We are obviously anxious over the messages. We pursue the development exactly and try to determine the facts." The Tupolev 154 is the most common medium-haul aircraft for inland flights in Russia. The 48 meters long machine can transport up to 180 Passenger over approximately 4,000 kilometers .

[747FOCAL]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/08/24/russia.planecrash/index.html

that can be nothing else since they left the same airport. bombs

[lomapaseo]

that can be nothing else since they left the same airport. bombs


That's what we said abot TWA800, SR111 and Egypt Air

[futurepilot2004]

Two planes from the same airport go down within 3 minutes of each other, neither made mayday calls, eyewitnesses saw explosion while the plane was in the air. Its pretty clear its terrorism.

[nightman]

Russian president has now asked the FSB security services to investigate. FSB usually only get involved in suspicious circumstances. Russian news agencies are also reporting russian airports stepping up security after crash.

[filejw]

Any chance it was a mid air ?

[nightman]

Looks like planes were hundreds of miles apart. So unless an incredibly freaky coincidence of two midairs it doesn't look likely. Russian reaction would suggest they're looking at terrorism, and given upcoming elections in Chechnya that adds weight to that theory.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

The crash sites (if they are Tula and Rostov) are about 475 miles apart.

[filejw]

Thanks I couldn't find both places on a map.

[Vee One...Rotate]

From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3596354.stm

[AN2 Driver]

Both out of DME (UUDD) Domodedovo.

TU134 radar contact lost at 10.54 pm local.
TU154 radar contact lost at 10.59 pm local.

Inflight explosion apparantly reported on the 134, wreckage located. The 154 is still missing apparently.

Pres. Putin is on vaccation in Sochi, where the 2nd plane is headed. The fact that he has ordered the security agency to the scene probably points towards the fact that he does not believe in coincidences of this magnitude.

Neither do I. Let's pray that there won't be more planes lost tonight.

[RT_060590]

very disturbing indeed, my condolances for the famlies of those killed

[Airbubba]

Another update:

Two Planes Crash in Russia

By Peter Baker and Susan B. Glasser
Washington Post Foreign Service

Tuesday, August 24, 2004; 8:08 PM

MOSCOW, Aug. 25 (Wednesday) -- Two passenger jets that took off from a Moscow airport crashed within minutes of each other in different parts of southern Russia late Tuesday night with a total of about 90 people on board, authorities said. No survivors were reported.

Both planes left Moscow's Domodedovo Airport about 10:30 p.m. heading to separate southern cities and then disappeared from radar almost simultaneously about 11 p.m., authorities said. Rescue squads reached the scene of one crash in the Tula region south of Moscow early Wednesday morning and hours later found a fire that may be from wreckage of the second plane north of Rostov-on-Don.

Officials made no immediate statements about the possible cause of the twin crashes, but the extraordinary timing raised suspicions of a possible terrorist attack. Witnesses in Tula reported seeing an explosion on one of the planes before it plunged out of the sky, the Interfax news agency reported, citing local authorities.

President Vladimir Putin, who is vacationing in the Black Sea resort of Sochi where the other plane was heading, was quickly informed of the developments and ordered the Federal Security Service, the domestic successor to the KGB, to investigate the incident, the Kremlin said. Security was tightened at Russian airports.

The crashes took place just days before an election this Sunday in the separatist region of Chechnya intended to choose a successor to Akhmad Kadyrov, the Kremlin-allied provincial president who was assassinated in May. The approaching vote has already been marked by renewed fighting in the Chechen capital of Grozny, as well as elsewhere in the region.

Russia has been targeted by repeated terrorist strikes in the past two years, killing hundreds of civilians in Moscow and in southern Russia. Chechen guerrillas have claimed credit for many of the suicide bombings and other attacks.

"There's still a chance this is an appalling airplane maintenance problem, but it seems more likely this is a terrorist act, given the prevailing conditions in the region," said Fiona Hill, a Russia scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "The whole of the North Caucasus is in considerable disarray."

Although Russian government officials have sought repeatedly in recent years to link Chechen separatist guerrillas with international terrorist groups such as al Qaeda, Hill said the possible airplane-based attack was not necessarily an indication of cooperation. "There's a situation where you have a demonstration effect -- what works in one place people adapt in another," she said. The fact that Putin is currently on vacation in Sochi, destination for one of the crashed planes, was "very symbolic, obviously," she added.

Aslan Maskhadov, the Chechen separatist leader, said in June that the Chechens planned an escalation in attacks against the Russians. "We're planning a change in our tactics," he said at the time. "From now on we'll be launching big attacks."

Maskhadov seemed to foreshadow the use of airplanes in a separate e-mail to the Reuters news agency last month. "If Chechens possessed warplanes or rockets, then airstrikes on Russian cities would also be legitimate," he said.

Authorities and activists had anticipated a major terrorist attack leading up to the Sunday election, in which the regional interior minister Alu Alkhanov is expected to win with the support of the Kremlin.

In an interview Tuesday before the plane crashes, Tatyana Lokshina of the Moscow Helsinki Group, a human rights organization, said the fighting in Grozny last weekend might be "some kind of prelude to some bigger event that would take place" on or before the election. "In the last few months, the level of violence has been steadily rising."

Terrorist attacks in the past year have focused on soft targets such as the Moscow subway and a rock concert. Security for domestic flights at Russian airport has often been criticized as lax.

Flight 1303, a Tu-134 operated by Volga-Avia-Express airline, arrived at Moscow at 9:20 p.m. from the southern city of Volgograd, known as Stalingrad during World War II, then loaded new passengers and took off again at 10:32 p.m., according to Russian news reports.

It disappeared at 10:56 p.m. with 34 passengers and eight crew members aboard. Authorities found wreckage from the plane in Tula.

Flight 1047, a Tu-154 operated by Sibir airline, left Moscow at 10:35 p.m. heading for Sochi, then vanished from Russian radar at 10:59 p.m., according to news reports. Interfax reported that 38 passengers and eight crew members were aboard, while the RIA-Novosti news agency put the number of passengers at 44.

Four hours after the crash, rescue personnel were still searching for the remains of the aircraft about 82 miles from Rostov-on-Don. About 3 a.m. they found a fire they believed could indicate the scene of the crash.

[Airbubba]

...The Russian news agency Interfax reported that a hijacking signal was activated on the second plane before it went missing. The signal came at 11:04 p.m. from the Tu-154 airliner, Interfax quoted the source in Russia's ``power structures'' as saying...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Russia-Plane-Crash.html?hp

[av8boy]

From the NYT article:

ITAR-Tass reported that the plane belonged to Volgograd-based airline Volga-Aviaexpress and was being piloted by the company's director.

Innocent question... does this use of the company director as pilot stem from the size of the company (AeroTransport says 5 current airframes) or the culture? In other words, would it be common in this part of the world for an airline's director to fly the line, or is it because the company is small (assuming it wasn't unique circumstances which placed the director in the airframe).

Dave

[B767PL]

News from CNN. Reports of ATC calling authorities, and reporting that there was a distress call from one of the airliners, of the crew being under attack.

[alexmcfire]

Unfortunatly I'm not surprised, I travelled throu Moscow international on the 5th of this month and found security to be
"relaxed", I wonder how it would be on a domestic flight?
May the victims rest in peace...:(

[Airbubba]

Time to round up the usual suspects...

[LTNman]

BBC reporting that one aircraft had set off a highjack alert

[Airbubba]

Flight Recorder from Crashed Russian Plane Found

By REUTERS

Published: August 25, 2004


Filed at 1:08 a.m. ET

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Rescuers have found the flight recorder from one of two Russian planes that crashed almost simultaneously late on Tuesday, raising fears of a terrorist strike, Interfax news agency reported.

``Our main task is to find and evacuate the remains of the passengers and to find the flight recorders of both planes,'' Interfax quoted Emergencies Minister Sergei Shoigu as saying on Wednesday.

``One of the flight recorders from the Tu-154 has already been found.'' The Tu-154 crashed near the southern Russian town of Rostov-on-Don with more than 40 people on board. The second plane, a Tu-134, also had more than 40 passengers and crew.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-crash-russia.html

[spiney]

In response to alexmcfire's comment about airport security in Russia, a colleague and myself were recently departing on a domestic flight to Moscow from an airport in the Russian Far East. My colleague had inadvertently packed six Korean decorative knives, with 5" long razor-sharp blades, in his carry-on... OK, OK, mental block - he just forgot... He didn't have a check-in bag and just remembered them as he was putting the bag through the x-ray machine... 2 operators, no query, no search... He picked the bag up and we boarded the aircraft. He checked them in DME-LHR though.

[CPilotUK]

Two Photos of the TU-134, taken in June of this year.


Photo 1 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=604674&WxsIERv=VHVwb2xldiBUdS0xMzRB&WdsYXMg=S09MQVZJQQ%3D%3D&QtODMg=TW9zY293IC0gRG9tb2RlZG92byAoRE1FIC8gVVVERCk%3D&ERDLTkt=UnVzc2lh&ktODMp=SnVuZSAxNCwgMjAwNA%3D%3D&BP=1&WNEb25u=UGVyZXNsYXZ0c2V2IEFsZXg%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=UkEtNjUwODA%3D&MgTUQtODMgKE=TmV3IHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbnMgZm9yIGEubmV0&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=NTUz&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwNC0wNi0yMg%3D%3D&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&size=L)

Photo 2 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=604673&WxsIERv=VHVwb2xldiBUdS0xMzRB&WdsYXMg=S09MQVZJQQ%3D%3D&QtODMg=TW9zY293IC0gRG9tb2RlZG92byAoRE1FIC8gVVVERCk%3D&ERDLTkt=UnVzc2lh&ktODMp=SnVuZSAxNCwgMjAwNA%3D%3D&BP=1&WNEb25u=UGVyZXNsYXZ0c2V2IEFsZXg%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=UkEtNjUwODA%3D&MgTUQtODMgKE=TmV3IHJlZ2lzdHJhdGlvbnMgZm9yIGEubmV0&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=MjE1&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwNC0wNi0yMg%3D%3D&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&size=L)

[I am Birddog]

Man those airplanes are 'old school':ugh:

[Evening Star]

Have to disagree with you alexmcfire. Flew S7 last month DME>ROV and return. Found security to be intense but seemed more enthusiasm than substance. Were several obvious holes compared to what we come to expect in western Europe. The post by spiney does not surprise me.

Only SLF, so will not speculate beyond what I can see. However, my blood ran cold at the reports.

(Birddog. 'Old school' indeed, but I am assured they are as tough as old boots ... even if the interiors are as worn as old boots.)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<My colleague had inadvertently packed six Korean decorative knives, with 5" long razor-sharp blades, in his carry-on... OK, OK, mental block - he just forgot... He didn't have a check-in bag and just remembered them as he was putting the bag through the x-ray machine... 2 operators, no query, no search... >>

Same as happened to my wife and I at Heathrow earlier this year.. I picked up the wrong belt-bag and halfway through the holiday found I'd taken my large Swiss Army knife and a 6" nail file. The whole lot had gone through Heathrow "security" with no problems...

[AN2 Driver]

AV8BOY,

it is not uncommon for owners or directors to be pilots themselfs. Same is true for a bulgarian company with whom I flew some years ago, the boss flies himself and does a very good job at it too.

Some airlines there are founded by pilots, so it comes naturally that they continue flying once in business.

A 5 plane outfit is not exactly big and as they seem to have a rather easy route structure, I guess the work at the office will be of a rather limited nature. Nothing wrong therefore with the boss participating in the flight line.

Best

AN2 Driver

CNN carries a map with the location of the 2 crashes, unfortuately no direct link (or at least I did not manage to find one).

It appears that the 134 crashed relatively soon after take off, whereas the 154 was nearing it\'s destination when it activated the hijack alert and reported an attack on the crew. I think it may be significant that the 154 was headed to the very location where Pres. Putin is on vaccation.

[Ignition Override]

Even if investigations over there conclude that terrorists were the cause, let's hope that the criminals are caught, and that the Western media, somehow, avoids splashing any graphic images all over the tv screens. This took place for weeks after 9/11, and the airport channels could not be changed!

Many people might still be frightened sheep regarding air travel. Let's hope, for the sake of many thousands of jobs 'on the line', that nothing multiplies the anxieties. :hmm:

[InTheAir]

Once again confusion reigns. So far this morning I have heard.

"both airplanes made a hijack distress signal"

"one airplane made a hijack distress signal"

"both planes made a hijack or some kind of other distress signal"

Anybody have any ATC news confirming what the Russian pilot(s) were squaking prior to going down? or is this more nonsense from our wonderful media?

[itchy kitchin]

BBC news said this morning one A/C had sent out a "hijack alert" and the newsman described it as an "airbourne SOS". I presume that one of the pilots had managed to squwark 7500. Thats all that i can add really, except to say that if it is the Chechens, i hope this doesn't affect other nations aviation industries, as this is a particularly unfortunate russian problem.

Sad day.

[Terror_is_firmer]

Anybody have any ATC news confirming what the Russian pilot(s) were squaking prior to going down? or is this more nonsense from our wonderful media?

Being Russia, I would expeect details to be released very, very slowly.

[cringe]

10:44, Moscow time
Siberia Airlines official statement

According to updated information from Head of the Military Sector of the Main Center of the Russian Unified System of Air Traffic Control, the hijacking alarm which was received last night came from the TU-154 plane of Siberia Airlines. It happened just before the loss of contact with the plane and its disappearance from the radar screens.

As it has been reported, last night the air company's Flight Control Center received a telegram with information about the alarm sent from one of the missing planes and a request for additional security measures.
More airline's official statements (in English) on the Sibir website (http://english.s7.ru/1047/info.shtml)

[Evening Star]

Russian news report:

http://www.gazeta.ru/2004/08/25/oa_131251.shtml

with summary in English:

http://www.gazeta.ru/2004/08/25/oa_131252.shtml

Report in Russian states (and please bear with my translation) that officials do not confirm that there was an act of terrorism, but indirect attributes speak about it. Representatives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs say they are already taking measures to increase security at many Russian airports, railway stations, sea and river ports. The TU154 had been in service since 1982, had 30751 hours and was last serviced this month. Less info about the TU134 although the airline state it was one of the best in the fleet. The local authorities in Rostov are preparing to accommode the families of victims. There are also links to the names of those who died (although Sibir have already made a change to the list because of confusion over a transit passenger at Moscow). RIP.

[Frangible]

They took off at the same time, went down at about the same time, but the crash sites are 500 miles apart. Any explanations/guesses?

[ABird747]

They took off at the same time, went down at about the same time, but the crash sites are 500 miles apart. Any explanations/guesses?

Have you bothered to read the previous posts??

[cringe]

The departures were over an hour apart with the Tu-154 taking off for Sochi at 9:25 p.m. and the Tu-134 for Volgograd at 10:32 p.m.

Source: Bloomberg quoting Russian officials

[Flying Mech]

All in all another sad day for aviation. May all passengers & crew rest in peace.

[Maniac618]

So far from the info we have I would go along with them both being terrorist attacks. It's too much of a coincidence surely, plus there was that "hijack" alert from the 154.

[LTNman]

Fuel contamination from the same tanker???

[kuningan]

This is the BBC Timeline of the incident:

Domodedovo Airport
1735: A Sibir Airlines Tu-134 bound for Volgograd departs

1815: A Volga-Aviaexpress Tu-154 leaves for Sochi

1856: Contact lost with Tu-154 (41 mins after t/o)

1859: Contact lost with Tu-134 (1 hr 24 mins after t/o)

Tula region Wreckage from Tu-134 found near the village of Buchalki soon after contact is lost - 125 Miles from Moscow - in 1 hr 24 min

Rostov-on-Don: Wreckage from Tu-154 found - 600 miles from Moscow. - in 41 min....

Either this chronology is wrong...or something else is up

[Frangible]

I read the post that said
"Both planes left Moscow's Domodedovo Airport about 10:30 p.m." The reporting moved on, and now I know different but why don't you save your sarcasm for something worth while Abird747?

[Volume]

Some picture from german ´stern´ online news :
http://www.stern.de/_content/52/88/528847/russlandkarte1_500.gif
http://www.stern.de/_content/52/88/528847/absturz_500_ap_500.jpg
Only new information on that site is that the 154 should have broken up in midair before crashing.

:( my feelings are with the cictims.

[WHBM]

I've always found current Russian airport security to be the equal of that in the west; going through there again this weekend and have no qualms. In fact, it doesn't suffer from the American concern about politically correctness and just intensive searching 1 in every n pax even if they're old ladies; in Russia they go through whoever they please. I presume there are certain social groupings that get checked over every time. So be it.

The 134 in question, for those discussing aircraft age, was built in 1977. Bear in mind that Russian aircraft do nothing like the hours of those in the west. The fairly intact panel in the picture above with the registration on it is the (appears to be port) engine cowling.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/604674/M/

Thoughts with the families of those involved.

[visibility3miles]

Only new information on that site is that the 154 should have broken up in midair before crashing.

What does "should have broken up" mean? Does that mean they think it did, based on the wreckage?

[Airbubba]

Chechens not responsible for Russia crashes says aide

Wed 25 August, 2004 14:14

LONDON (Reuters) - A London-based spokesman for the leader of Chechnya's main rebel group says it is not responsible for near-simultaneous air crashes in Russia which killed 89 people.

Asked if his group was responsible for the crashes, Akhmed Zakayev, a spokesman for Chechnya's separatist leader Aslan Maskhadov, told Reuters in London: "Of course not."

"To us any form of terrorism is absolutely unacceptable. We have condemned it and continue to condemn it," he said...

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=571339&section=news

__________________________________________

...President Vladimir Putin, vacationing in Sochi, ordered the FSB security service to investigate the crashes ahead of Sunday's presidential election in Chechnya. Rebel separatists have threatened to disrupt the poll with violence.

"The main line of inquiry we are following is violation of the rules of operating civil aircraft," FSB spokesman Sergei Ignatchenko said.

Ignatchenko said this meant pilot error, mechanical defects or problems with fuel quality -- prime suspects in Russia, where pilots are poorly paid and planes often old.

"We are also examining the possibility of a terrorist act, but we have no evidence to support this."...

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=571338&section=news

[747FOCAL]

Come on here. Lets look at the odds. They both left same airport and crash within minutes of each other even though they left 40 minutes apart. I would like to think fuel quality, but there is just too much that points to sabotage. :mad:

[Wino]

from Itchy Kitchum
i hope this doesn't affect other nations aviation industries, as this is a particularly unfortunate russian problem.

Nope its not. Its a problem for ALL aviation and it is VERY naive to think otherwise. A few determined lunatics acting in concert can do this anywhere, and every country on earth has a few lunactics who can't get what they want at the polls or are just imbalanced/indoctrinated and in their certainty that they are right will resort to other means.

Don't dismiss it because it only happened so far in Russia or the USA or Israel or Pakistan, or the planet Mars or somewhere else that you feel superior to. Attempts have been made in Europe and Asia to do similar things. That they were foiled was due as much to luck as anything else.


FOCAL,
Unfortunately I agree with you. Fuel contamination would be most likely at a similar time after take off. Not similar time on the clock.

I hope all the crews and pax rest easy.

Cheers
Wino

[Flight Safety]

747focal, fuel quality will have to be looked at, as it's possible that this could have been caused be a fuel problem. However no mayday calls have been reported for either aricraft (so far), they went down within 3 minutes of each other, one appears to have exploded and the other appears to have made a hijacking call, and Putin has ordered a full scale investigation.

Contaminated fuel is possible, but I doubt it.

Wino, it's not really necessary for both aircraft to experience problems at about the same time on the clock after takeoff. It would depend on which tanks were fillled, and when those tanks were switched to wouldn't it?

[JamesT73J]

According to the BBC's website, preliminary investigation of the wreckage would seem to suggest there was no terrorist act. Chechen rebel leaders have denied any involvement.

Airplanes don't generally just fall to bits do they? At least the Russian authorities are reacting with very level heads thus far.

[5 APU's captain]

InTheAir:
rOnce again confusion reigns. So far this morning I have heard.

"both airplanes made a hijack distress signal"

"one airplane made a hijack distress signal"

"both planes made a hijack or some kind of other distress signal"

Anybody have any ATC news confirming what the Russian pilot(s) were squaking prior to going down? or is this more nonsense from our wonderful media?
================================
2 InTgeAir:
Soviet aircraft have a special "high jack" button - you can press it by your foot and high jack signal will go to the ATC independently of squawk setting.

[Capt.KAOS]

The Interfax and ITAR-Tass news agencies later quoted an unnamed law enforcement source as saying that the signal was an SOS and that no other signals were sent.

Oleg Yermolov, deputy director of the Interstate Aviation Committee, said that it is impossible to judge what is behind the signal, which merely indicates "a dangerous situation onboard" and can be triggered by the crew during a hijacking or a potentially catastrophic technical problem (indeed fuel contamination?).

BTW it seems that the TU-134 was piloted by the Siber company director himself.

[Wino]

Flight Safety,

WHile what you say is generally true. By and large all large aircraft are operated in similar manner where the engines are fed from their wing for take off (to allow gravity feed if necesary) and then switching to the center tank or center of the aircraft and working your way out for the duration of the flight (for wing bending issues)

Furthermore, single point refueling allows for a pretty good swirl through all the tanks. Making that even tougher isolate a contaminated tank.

Then you can get into the type of refueling error. Avgas will choke the turbine wheel with lead deposits untill the engine fails.
Particulate contamination will do other things including clogging the pick up. etc.... The worst refueling error I ever had was actually a service of the LAVs with Jetfuel in a 727. (Not kidding) the FE on my aircraft discovered it before takeoff from the US Mail hub in indianpolis in 1995 or so. Mechanics didn't believe him so he took a water bottle and used it to suck up the fluid in the Lav and sprayed it out all over the ramp and lit it on fire. THAT got everyone's attention. Orders sent out for emergency returns for all aircraft and not to use the Lavs... several other aircraft turned out to have a similar problem. Training issues with the ground support staff....

Cheers
WIno

[Diesel8]

Of course, knowing as little as every one.....

If it was fuel contamination, one would imagine the pilots being able to transmit further info, as opposed to just an SOS. The odds of both engines, or all three failing at the exact same time is slim.

Not knowing about electrical system on these types of airplanes, vis a vis engine failure and radio transmissions, however, it seems likely, that it is similar to western types with backup generation or at least battery power.

[JamesT73J]

Would fuel contamination and subsequent loss of any power have caused such extensive destruction of the a/c on landing? Poor people.

[Phileas Fogg]

Being a frequent traveller within the CIS there is a loophole, I discovered, in airport security. It is a while since I travelled through one of the major airports but this loophole certainly exists at the 'regionals'.
I was travelling from Dnepropetrovsk Airport last month and I was bringing back with me, a cigarette lighter in the form of a hand pistol, believe me it looks authentic!
As you enter such an airport all baggage is x-rayed, my 'pistol' showed-up and it was agreed it would need to travel in my hold luggage.
Thereafter you proceed to the check-in desk (with your hold & hand luggage), having already been thru the only security check one has every opportunity to move things between bags before checking-in. Thereafter it's onwards to the departure lounge and the aircraft without any further security check(s).
One has every opportunity to transfer item(s) from their hold luggage to their hand luggage, I easily had the opportunity to take my 'pistol' into the cabin with me!

[Wino]

Yes, but it was detected, was it not,
And I assure you, had it been real, they would not have been so accomodating.

Cheers
Wino

[Phileas Fogg]

Let me clarify, it was detected, agreed that it should travel in the hold but I could have very easily switched it to my hand baggage once thru the one and only security check which is before one checks one's bags in.
Wonder if there was some guy in a cabin last evening wandering around with an imitation firearm! Think about it!

[FLEXJET]

Here are some details:


VOLGA AVIAEXPRESS
Vol ZHI 1303 Domodevodo -> Volgograd
Take-off 22 :16 (22 :20)
T-134 RA65080
Pax : 34 + 8
Dsp Radar : 22 :56


SIBIR AIRLINES
Vol S7 1047 Domodevodo -> Sochi
Take-off 21 :35 (21 :25)
T-154 RA85556
Pax : 44 + 8
Dsp Radar : 23 :00

Crewlist:
(Moscow Domodedovo - Sochi (Adler))

Captain Gurbev Mihail Leonidovich - 1956 - Pilot, 1st Class (Moscow)
Pilot Andrushenko Jorii Vladimirovich - 1970 - Pilot, 2nd Class (Moscow)
Flight Navigator Koroli Jorii Vladimirovich - 1964 - Pilot, 1st Class (Moscow)
Flight Engineer Ermolaev Andrei Vladimirovich - 1966 - Pilot, 2nd Class (Moscow)
Chief Purser Blikovskaia Olga Sergeevna - 1963 - (Barnaul)
Flight Attendant Ivanov Sergei Vladimirovich - 1966 - (Barnaul)
Flight Attendant Tarsukova Iana Gennadievna - 1974 - (Barnaul)
Flight Attendant Hudeeva Marina Petrovna - 1979 - (Barnaul)



Sochi is one of President Poutine's vacation place

What about fuel contamination ?

[5 APU's captain]

About fuel contamination - do not think, please, that military AN-124 Ruslan crashed due to bad fuel - it is OFFICIAL version only. Real (suspected by military pilots)- overloading with a freight for the money making for Chief Flight Division.
========================================
Two crashes from one airport at the same time meens two bombs set on the same time...

[INTEL101]

I cannot believe how people cannot add one and one and conclude a logical answer to this. Consider first the story about the Syrian bandsmen which originated at:

http://www.flightattendants.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/71534

Then consider that both Russian a/c apparrently exploded within minutes of each other.

It appears that the first observation was of a dry run in which a team of terrorists were testing out the possibility of assembling two or three ingredients (carried seperately) in the toilets which themselves might be innocuous enough, (e.g. Sugar, weedkiller, oil, batteries, wire wool) but which when put together would make a bomb.

The second recent and very sad double explosion (with reports of hijacking or some kind of pax unrest) seems to be the execution or further testing of this process.

I would say we should be on the lookout for more of these because if the testing process is complete then we could be in for a blitz.

[itchy kitchin]

Wino,

Just for clarification, I was suggesting that chechen separatists were a paticularly unfortunate russian problem.

Just wanted to clear that up so as to avoid any misunderstanding. I agree that terrorism is truly a global problem, but reading this thread, there now seems to be some doubt as to who, if anybody, commited this malfeasant act. I guess that only time and investigatory work will tell.

Regards from the kitchin

[Avman]

INTEL101, I'm not entirely convinced that extremist suicide bombers would blow themselves up "for the cause" just for practice purposes. I think they want to die killing Americans.

[INTEL101]

Avman, good point, unless the Chechen division of al Quaeda saw this as an actual "production operation" against the Russians as well as a live test.

[SaturnV]

Intel 101: The story of the Syrian musicians on the Northwest flight has already made it into the catalog of Urban Legends. see:



You might want to read what are purported to be excerpts from the report of the Federal air marshals who were on that flight, regarding the behavior of the frightened woman, Annie Jacobsen.

As far as Chechens doing dry runs for al Qaeda, maybe so, maybe not. However, I have not seen metal detectors deployed to American theatres or cinemas after 20 or 30 armed Chechen terrorists took about 1000 theatre-goers hostage in Moscow in January 2002, with disastrous consequences there. Nor have I heard of special continuing precautions being taken against terrorists imploding apartment buildings by accessing the natural gas lines, letting the gas pool in a confined space, and setting it alight. This supposedly was/is another Chechen technique.

[LatviaCalling]

There may be some hypothetical comparisons of Chechens doing dry runs for Al Queda, but I think this is most doubtful. These two incidents in Russia were not dry runs. If, in fact, they were terrorist involved, then they were the real thing. Luckily they did not involve the maximum amount of passengers that the aircraft could carry, very much like the United which crashed in Pennsylvania.

If it was a terrorist attack, what better way to get on a plane that's half empty, because there are plenty of seats and the ticket agent will be happy to have a couple more pax, instead of trying to hijack a plane with a stand-by ticket which makes you more and more visible as you pace around the check-in counter.

As far as contaminated fuel is concerned, my minimal knowledge of octanes would preclude that a plane would explode if the kerosine was mixed with water. Rather, you would have an engine flameout. Even if both engines flamed out on the 134 and all three went on the 154, the cockpit crew would have plenty of time to notify ATC of their situation.

There has been a mention that Soviet aircraft have an SOS button. If the situation was not extremely dire, the radio works just as well and better by explaining the problem. It only takes a few seconds. If the SOS button is meant both for emergencies and hijacks, those on the ground will never know because it is a signal and a signal only that an aircraft is in serious trouble.

Back to the fuel. If some tanker truck had filled both planes up with diesel fuel by mistake, I don't think that they could even start their engines, much less take off. If it were gasoline, they probably would have burned out the engines shortly after startup.

So, where does it leave us. One plane, the Tu-154 scattered over a 25 kilometer radius and the other, a Tu-134 pretty much intact. It seems to me that the 154 definitely went through a heavy explosion, as did the 134, but not as intense. Witnesses on the ground saw them both explode in the air, and not on the ground.

It is difficult to comprehend that if both planes suffered engine-out problems that they would explode in the air. And here I'm taking a chance: Maybe Russia and Putin don't want this to be a terrorist tragedy. Just maybe.

[Kalium Chloride]

Fuel contamination causes engines to conk out.

As far as I'm aware, it doesn't cause in-flight break-ups.

Yet Sibir is convinced that the scale of the Tu-154 wreckage field indicates that there was an explosion on board.

[Airbubba]

Looks likes most of the "no terrorism" reports originate with Mr. Ignatchenko's remarks earlier today. Remember, it took several days to establish that Pan Am 103 was brought down by a bomb.

_________________________________________________


Russia Investigates Cause of 2 Plane Crashes

Officials Say Initial Examination Shows No Evidence of Terrorism

By Peter Baker and Susan B. Glasser
Washington Post Foreign Service

Wednesday, August 25, 2004; 3:29 PM

MOSCOW, Aug. 25 -- Russian investigators said they found no evidence Wednesday that terrorists brought down two passenger jets that crashed almost simultaneously, killing all 90 people aboard, suggesting that the twin tragedies could be a horrific coincidence of technical malfunctions or human carelessness.

Investigators scouring the grassy fields where the two airplanes fell nearly 500 miles apart recovered flight recorders but discovered no signs of bomb blasts that might have downed the aircraft, officials said. Although not ruling out terrorism, authorities opened a criminal investigation into possible negligence and put the transportation minister in charge of the probe.

...Investigators said they were checking the condition of the aircraft, the type of fuel used, weather conditions and pilot mistakes as well as potential sabotage. Russia's aging fleet of civilian airliners has been a source of concern for years.

"I just think we're talking about negligence," said Sergei Ignatchenko, the chief spokesman for the Federal Security Service, the domestic successor to the KGB, in a telephone interview. "Our planes have already used up their resources. Unfortunately, they're still used and they're still flying."

Ignatchenko acknowledged the improbability of catastrophic trouble afflicting two planes at the same time without terrorist intervention. "It's too much of a coincidence," he agreed. "We're not denying terrorism. It's one version and we're checking it, of course. But as of now on the sites we haven't discovered any explosives or any trace of any violence. That's why we're saying the main reason is the violation of safety rules."...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31159-2004Aug25.html

[Wino]

Don't forget Aeroflot never had a crash during the communist years :rolleyes:

One of my mom's friends went to Russia (excuse me the soviet Union) on some sort of cultural exchange in the mid 70s. She never came home. Just dissappeared. It turned out about a year later the family found out they had perished in a plane crash.

While the laws of very large numbers make such a thing as the Russian accidents theoretically possible (Its those same large numbers that make some people think they are psychic, we can discuss it in a thread on numbers theory and gambling if you want) GENERALLY, the the more likely explanation of human intervention would be where I would place my money.



Too many coincidences to run together. Departure airport, timing, low PAX count (Ideal for an inflight takeover), no distress call (in a lot of ways eerily similar to 9/11)

A weakness was found and exploited I am sad to say. And the problem is that the nature of aviation is such that EVERY airport has weaknesses, and always will.

Cheers
Wino

[simfly]

Some posts earlier on refer to a possible test run for future terrorist plans..... I find this more doubtfull as after attacks of this nature (though we don't KNOW that yet) security would be stepped up dramatically so theories about planting items in the cabin before hand etc etc would be harder to do... I hope! I was on one of the first flights out of Gatwick to the USA 3years ago, and my flight was delayed almost 2 hours, just because of the extra security-hand searching every item of hand baggage etc...

One other thought... would it not be possible for an aircraft to appear to "explode" in mid air if it was say, descending a wee bit too fast, and not necessarily a bomb going off? I seem to remember watching video reconstructions on the TWA 747 where they believe the wings ripped off and the fuel igniting after the initial inflight seperation, due to the rapid speed the main part of the aircraft subsequently acheived. Possible that in a hijacking and consequent struggle for control, the aircraft could be put into an unrecoverable situation, thus massive speed exceedence...

[cringe]

From LatviaCalling:

Witnesses on the ground saw them both explode in the air, and not on the ground. Can you please tell more? So far I have only read of witnesses hearing the Tu-134 coming down:

Residents of the village recounted the sounds of the disaster.

"There were three loud bangs ... like someone knocking, like breaking glass," said Nikolai Gorokhov, who was in his home when the plane crashed. "I thought it was thunder at first."

Yevgeny Chorkin, 17, said he also heard three bangs. "First there was the sound of roaring, as if the plane was flying very low, then came an explosion, like thunder, followed by two more blasts after a couple of seconds. And that was it," Chorkin said.

Olga Yevseyeva said she was putting her son to bed at 10:55 p.m. when she heard a loud roar and smelled burning rubber.

"Then there was a hollow bang and a crash, and that was it," she said. "Silence."

[newarksmells]

If this ineed was fuel contamination, wouldn't more planes have had the same problem? Or does the tanker only have enough capacity to fuel 2 planes before it has to go and fetch more fuel?

Newarksmells

[ionov]

Official site of Airline Company "Siberia":
http://english.s7.ru/

[SaturnV]

Mindful of an old saying that there is no Pravda ([the] truth) in Izvestia ([the] news) and no Izvestia in Pravda, the following is an English translation of an article in Pravda. It certainly suggests a high altitude breakup of the Tupolev 154.

On the place of the crash of TU-154 plane in Rostov region, the bodies of six people were found.

The representative of the operative staff Sergey Kuznetsov also said that the two big pieces of the plane were found 600 (Cyrillic omitted).

There can be several bodies of the passengers and the crew members in the fuselage remains, said Mr. Kuznetsov.

According to him, the area of the search is 25 square kilometers. More than 1,000 people are working on the scene of the tragedy.

One of the pieces of the plane fell into the yard of a house. No people were injured as the piece fell onto the barn.

The reporter of Interfax interview the local residents, and they said that the bodies of 10 dead people from the plane had been found near villages Krutye Gorki and Zelenovka.

In the barn in Krutye Gorki village a passenger seat with dead bodies of a woman and a child in it, was found. The seat broke through the roof of the barn.

In this village, the bodies of two men were also found. Near the village, the pilot-s body was found. The bodies of 5 more passengers were found in Zelenovka village. The witnesses said that the bodies had not been burned.

The villagers notified the law-enforcers on all the bodies they had found.

Meanwhile, Intefax has had no official confirmation of the above information so far.

President Putin declared August 26 the day of mourning in Russia.

[andyb79]

Avman wrote
INTEL101, I'm not entirely convinced that extremist suicide bombers would blow themselves up "for the cause" just for practice purposes. I think they want to die killing Americans.

Not everyone in the world is that interested in the USA. Terrorism was about long before september 2001, and different terrorist groups have different causes, most of which dont involve the USA!(despite what the media say!)

[jugofpropwash]

Probably some form of terrorism, but... a dumb question from someone who's not familiar with Russian operations. Other than the fuel truck, could someone else have worked on and/or serviced both aircraft? A baggage handler, maintainance person, etc? Someone who might be inexperienced, careless or downright destructive who might have damaged the planes in some way?

[planecrazi]

I doubt fuel contamination. If engines stop, aircraft will glide and radio communication can be established and chances are good that aircraft don't explode with engines stalling.

An eye witness need not be a rocket scientist to confrim an aircraft exploding before hitting the ground.

Something catasrophic happened in the cruise with an extreme high rate of descent (possibly uncontrolled flight) it sounds like with no chance of radio communication. Possibility exits that the crew were not contious at the time of impact due the the fact nothing was said on the radio.

Must wait and see!

[Airbubba]

>>An eye witness need not be a rocket scientist to confrim an aircraft exploding before hitting the ground.<<

Yes but this "inflight explosion" and fire is almost always reported by someone whether it actually occured or not in airliner accidents.

Also, something is often lost or gained in translation and journalist editing of public comments, e.g. confusion between the angle of bank and the angle of turn in the recent CX "sporty approach" incident. If you've used the older Airbus manuals you know how misleading faulty technical translations can be.

[TheShadow]

Surely they weren't able to get explosives aboard and into the cabin; but if so, what a black eye for Russian airport security.....

The more security you impose (including skymarshals and impenetrable reinforced cockpit doors), the more constrained are the terrorists' options, but they'll still have many. If they can't get guns and bombs aboard then they'll construct something in the lavatory - perhaps. But explosives constructed from low-grade explosives like fertilizer don't work well in small quantities - or reliably. They'd often achieve little more than a rapid depressurization anyway - and there are easier ways of doing that. Accelerants and highly caustic substances do however create an instant crisis - and they can be gotten aboard in aerosols

Why wouldn't it have been a barometrically-fused bomb in the cargo hold? Possibly, but if the Sibir TU154 pilots managed to get out a Mayday squawk yet no R/T message (which seems to be the more widely reported case) then that might indicate that they were busy putting on their oxygen masks and/or that the a/c had already been rapidly or explosively depressurized. That preliminary overture would quickly distract or incapacitate F/A's and/or sky marshals. The easiest way to do that explosively would be to surreptitiously take out a window (or two) with a pen-gun (pistol barrel disguised as a plastic biro or fountain pen and utilizing a spring-loaded firing-pin onto a lead-pellet charge). It would just sound and appear to be a window blowing out.

Only then would the aerosol can of accelerant need to be stomped and ignited (with a pen-gun blank) and you'd have a rapidly spreading conflagration. The pilots would be very busy getting on oxygen, turning off the airway and getting headed downhill. Any R/T call comes next... and that might be suddenly forgotten if an F/A advised them of a fiery furnace down back. No sophisticated circuitry or fuzing required in this scenario. It would be very hard to reconstruct that from the debris and Al Qaeda tends to leave things very much up in the air on claiming credit. So the question then subsequently becomes, even for later genuine accidents, "well was it an accident or wasn't it? How can you be sure?". That imponderable then becomes the real deterrent to air travel....and that is the name of their wider terrorist assault upon Western economies. Suicide bombers have such a wide range of options.

Downlinked CCTV emergency telemetry of real-time CVR/DFDR data tied in to any number of auto-initiators (such as depressurization, smoke detection, EICAS alerts, pilot panic-button etc) would seem to be the only answer. Why's that? Well only in about 50 to 60% of cases does a definitive answer emerge from the clues contained in the CVR/DFDR/QAR (if recoverable). Something more sophisticated is now required for truth and honesty in both aircrash and aviation terrorism forensics.

[Evening Star]

Notice that the FCO website (http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket%2FXcelerate%2FShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029390590&a=KCountryAdvice&aid=1013618386379) has the following, possibly temporary, comment on the travel advice pages for Russia:

Two Russian airliners on internal flights crashed this morning. The British Embassy in Moscow has advised its staff not to travel on internal airlines for 24 hours, until the situation becomes clearer.

So the British Embassy staff are safe. Never mind any other British nationals who may have to travel.:rolleyes:

Phileas Fogg, the old fashioned Russian/CIS airports have security before registration/check in, so it is possible to pull the trick you describe of transferring something naughty from the hold luggage to hand luggage after security. However, this does not apply to DME where the process is the more conventional (to the 'western' way of thinking) registration, including checking in of hold luggage, before security. There are (were?!) still gaps, but not as glaring as at other CIS airports.

[ANGELHIGH]

I DID A RADIO INTEVIEW YESTERDAY )TUESDAY) MORNING AND THIS IS THE CRIB SHEET I MADE UP TO HELP. IT MAY OR MAY NOT ADD ANYTHING TO WHAT IS IN THIS THREAD ALREADY. IT DOES NOT READ WELL BECAUSE IT IS IN NOTE FORM, BUT I HAVE NOT GOT THE TIME TO RE-WRITE IT IN PROSE !!


TU 134 DOMODEVO TO VOLVOGRAD (STALINGRAD)
TU 154 SAME TO SOCHI BLACK SEA (PUTIN THERE AT THE MOMENT

Tu 154 [RUSSIAN TRIDENT and B727 LOOK ALIKE] FIRST FLEW 1972 923 BUILT This is 33rd fatal accident , but that includes 1 door opening, loss of 2 hostesses, one destroyed by troops storming after hijack


TU 134 [RUSSIAN BAC 111 STILL - HAS BOMB AIMERS CAPSULE IN NOSE (originally developed from Tu-16 “Badger”] FIRST FLEW 1967 852 BUILT including 200 military examples - 300 STILL FLYING ACCIDENTS RECORD SIMILAR OR WORSE THAN 154.

IN BOTH TYPES ACCIDENTS MAINLY OCCURRED PRE 2000 WHEN A MAJOR OVER HAUL OF CIS AIRLINES BEGAN

SIBIR THE OPERATOR OF ONE OF THE AIRCRAFT (BLACK SEA) HAD ONE SHOT DOWN IN THE SAME LOCATION IN OCTOBER 2001 BY MISSILE [UKRAINIAN]

Sibir is now Russia’s second largest airline, and should carry some 4 million passengers this year. Well run, good training facilities and centre, one of the few to use CRM / LOFT in Russia
CAUSE OF ACCIDENTS NOT KNOWN AT PRESENT

FOR EXAMPLE EI ONT? [AER LINGUS VISCOUNT OVER TUSKAR ROCK] CRASH ONLY RESOLVED AFTER 35 YEARS AND REPORT COMPLETELY OVERTURNED PREVIOUS REPORTS

FLASHAIR RED SEA ACCIDENT STILL UNRESOLVED - JAN THIS YEAR YET EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT SAID IT WAS “TERRORISM” WITHIN HOURS OF THE CRASH.

HOWEVER ONE CAN MAKE SOME INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE DOUBLE CRASH……..

10 YEARS AGO WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TOO SURPRISED (CRASH OF TWO RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT) EXCEPT FOR HAPPENING ON SAME DAY FROM SAME AIRPORT WITHIN MINUTES AND ON SAME ROUTES WITH HIGH TERRORIST BACKGROUND THREAT. BOTH AIRCRAFT ‘OLD’ TECHNOLOGY THOUGH!

ACCIDENT RATES WORLD WIDE ARE AS FOLLOWS
3RD WORLD (DOES NOT REALLY APPLY TO RUSSIA NOW) 20 X MORE HAZARDOUS THAN 1ST CLASS WESTERN OPERATORS.

1994 was the low point for Russian aviaition. (because of the publicity generated around the Airbus – pilot’s son i/c accident) Russian government asked FAA to fully audit Russian civil aviation, FAA issued series if recommendations, all followed. Safety improved considerably, no accidents 1997 to 1999, last accident (to airliner – HELIS excluded) in July 2002 (2 events, collision over Lake Constance, + Il-86on ferry to base lost on t/o from Moscow, 14 crew dead).

CLUES TO TERRORIST ATTACK
· NO ADMISSION OF RESPONSIBILITY – INDEED IT HAS BEEN DENIED BY “SOURCES” [but then there were none after 9 /11, started trend?]

· Sibir confirms hijack code message – BUT no PAN put out by either crew

· IF THERE WAS A HIJACK, THEN IT IS UNLIKELY THAT IT WAS A BOMB SINCE NO PILOT WOULD SEND OUT A HIJACK CODE AFTER A BOMB. A HIJACKER DOES NOT USUALLY SET OFF A BOMB ON HIS OWN AIRCRAFT OR IF HE DOES, HE DOESN’T NEED TO ATTACK THE CREW. SO THIS IS A BIT MUDDIED – COULD HAVE BEEN A TAKEOVER THAT WENT WRONG OR THAT THEY SIMPLY OVERPOWERED THE CREW AND DIVED THE AIRCRAFT – “POOR MAN’S BOMB/MISSILE”

· SECURITY CAN BE BREACHED – BROKEN BOTTLES FOR EXAMPLE MORE DANGEROUS THAN BOX CUTTERS AND ANY NUMBER OF IMPROVISED WEAPONS CAN BE MADE – FOR EXAMPLE, THE TITANIUM ALLOY FRAME OF A WHEELIE BAG CAN BE SHARPENED INTO A SWORD VERY EASILY AND CONCEALED BACK WITHIN THE BAG UNTIL REMOVED.


· BLACK BOXES CAN TELL US IF THERE WAS A FAULT ON BOARD
· Tu black boxes now at international standards, adequate channels. The -154 had come out of a Form 4 overhaul – virtually a total rebuild, on August 10th. Therefore technical problem unlikely.
·
The TU 134 not so good. Lat Major OH completed in February 1996, although aircraft had flown just 65% of Time since MOH

POSSIBLE MOTIVE IS PRESENT – ELECTIONS IN CHECHYA IN 4 DAYS
PRESIDENT AKHMED KADYROV ASSASSINATED THIS YEAR
MAJOR REBEL ACTIVITY IN GROZNY THIS WEEK
PUTIN IN SOCHI

WITNESS REPORTS
WITNESSES NOTORIOUSLY UNRELIABLE AT THIS STAGE

SO ON BALANCE LOOKS LIKE TOO MUCH OF A CO-INCENDENCE TO BE OTHER THAN SOME FORM OF ATTACK ON THE AIRCRAFT.


Was it just the 134, I’d be inclined to look hard at tech failure, but a 154 just out of major makes this seem very unlikely.
They are also looking at fuel contamination, but Sibir has more than 50 flights per day from Domodedovo, so why only 2 aircraft with something so seriously wrong that no pans given. In any event fuel contamination causes poor running or flameout which is not a major problem – many aircraft have landed “dead stick” over the years and all major systems keep running certainly the VHF radio which would allow the crew to inform the ground.
It’s also much too early to exclude almost anything – even terrorism.


Good luck tiday!

[HotDog]

Shadow, your profile shows you are a pilot but with imagination like yours, I feel you are wasting your talents.:rolleyes:

The easiest way to do that explosively would be to surreptitiously take out a window (or two) with a pen-gun (pistol barrel disguised as a plastic biro or fountain pen and utilizing a spring-loaded firing-pin onto a lead-pellet charge). It would just sound and appear to be a window blowing out.

Next time you see an engineer, ask him to explain the cabin window construction to you. What does a window blowing out sound like?

[Cejkovice]

It was quickly established after the accidents that the Flight Data and Cockpit Voice Recorders had been found.

Anyone know if there is any preliminary results obtained from these yet???

Cejk

[Nerik]

No news yet but boy would it be the mother of all coincidences if the 2 accidents were not linked.........

[Phileas Fogg]

Quote from another site:

Swedish media claim 6 people on one of the flights where thrown off before take-off because the where drunk and causing trouble.
Lucky them I say...


I wonder if their bags were thrown off also!

[TheShadow]

HOTDOG

You are obviously the EXPERT so perhaps you can explain it to us.

Why would the layers of transparency be impervious to a shotgun blast (being already under considerable outwards differential)?

What does it sound like? Do you clearly recall? Or are you claiming that pen-guns don't exist? Would you like to see an image of one?

Would the cabin occupants be able to discriminate between the loud noise and the sudden outrush of air and then rationalize (within the 12 secs of Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC):

"Can't fool me, Mr Terrorist. That was easily discernible as a gunshot followed .0001 secs later by a sudden outrush of air. Obviously two distinct events " Even the average flight attendant wouldn't be fooled into thinking a window blew out eh? But why would that matter anyway?

Are you saying that a (shaving foam spray-can) aerosol of highly inflammable petroleum based accelerant would be no big deal - or that it would be difficult to get one onboard? Or that it would be difficult to stomp and light it off during your own TUC?

As I recall you are the same expert who later claimed he saw 911 coming but didn't bring it up because it sounded too outlandish and you were awaiting proof.

We're dying to hear your own clear explanation therefore on this one.

[Jellied Eels]

From a Moscow Times article today:

"So far there are no signs of terrorist acts taking place on board either plane," FSB spokesman Nikolai Zakharov said.

Investigators rolled out evidence disproving a terrorist attack. They said none of the recovered bodies had burns -- which would have been an indication of an on-board explosion. The hijack alert from the Sibir Tu-154, confirmed by air traffic controllers and Sibir, was in fact an SOS call. And they said their investigation will not focus on terrorism but violations of civilian aircraft rules.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/08/26/002.html

Seems all a bit fishy.

[Phileas Fogg]

They said none of the recovered bodies had burns

So the aircraft didn't catch fire at any point? Not even upon impact with the ground?

[HotDog]

Oh, I see Shadow. A shotgun cartridge fired from a pen held in your hand. How devilishly clever (and brave)!:confused:

Now sarcasm aside, loosing a cabin window would not be a catastrophic event as the outflow valves would simply close and maintain the pressure differential in the cabin to almost normal levels and no rapid descent would be required. There certainly would be a sudden rush of air initially, most probably ripping the pen gun out of your perpertrators hand so there would be no more pen gun to ignite your aerosol can of accelerant.

I hope you find this explanation clear enough.:{

[Jellied Eels]

. . . and this from Newsday:

"I just think we're talking about negligence," said Sergei Ignatchenko, the chief spokesman for the Federal Security Service, in a telephone interview. "Our planes have already used up their resources. Unfortunately, they're ... still flying."

Ignatchenko acknowledged the improbability of catastrophe striking two planes at once without terrorist intervention. "It's too much of a coincidence," he agreed. "We're not denying terrorism ... and we're checking it, of course. But as of now on the sites we haven't discovered any explosives or any trace of any violence. That's why we're saying the main reason is the violation of safety rules."

...

Putin's passive tone contrasted with his traditional response to apparent terrorist attacks, which he usually blames on Chechen rebels even before an investigation. When a bomb killed more than 40 people on the Moscow subway in February, Putin said no circumstantial evidence was needed to accuse the Chechens and vowed to eliminate them.


http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woruss263942534aug26,0,6607785.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

[SLFguy]

You guys kill me...there is momentous slagging of journos ...if u can be arsed to read back thru this thread u will see more sensationalist assumptions than u can poke a stick at!

[Phileas Fogg]

Well here's some sensational assumptions from Siberia Airlines, the TU154 operator:

17:32, Moscow time
Siberia Airlines official statement


We have information from the crash site of TU-154 in the Rostov region.

By visual estimates of eye-witnesses who were at the crash site, large fragments of the aircraft are scattered in the distance of about 1,5 kilometers. The big scattering distance of large fragments is an indirect confirmation of the version according to which the plane was destroyed in the air as the result of an explosion.

We remind that during the night the air company received a telegram from the Main Center of the Russian Unified System of Air Traffic Control. The telegram informed about a hijacking alarm from one of the missing planes. Later it was confirmed that this hijacking alarm came from the TU-154 plane of Siberia Airlines. It happened just before the loss of contact with the aircraft and its disappearance from the radar screens.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17:13, Moscow time
Information about the technical condition of the aircraft


The plane TU-154B-2 (RA-85556) was manufactured by the Kuibyshev aviation plant on September 27, 1982 with the production serial number of 82À556. This aircraft was one of the youngest in the TU-154B series and flew no more than 60% of its life time. The design life time of the aircraft of this series is 50 000 flying hours from the start of operation. This plane flew only 30 751 hours.

TU-154B-2 (RA-85556) underwent one major overhaul at civil aviation repair plant # 411 (Minvody). The overhaul was completed on August 25, 1993. The plane had a scheduled maintenance service on August 10, 2004.

The first, second and third engine units averaged 2000 working hours after the major overhaul (out of 6000 hours permitted) , and the auxiliary engine unit worked only 569 hours out of its life time of 1800 hours.

[eal401]

Now sarcasm aside, loosing a cabin window would not be a catastrophic event as the outflow valves would simply close and maintain the pressure differential in the cabin to almost normal levels and no rapid descent would be required.
Could you give a bit more information on this, as I am finding it very hard to believe. Genuine question!

[Airbubba]

Russian Flight Recorders Reveal Little

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: August 26, 2004

Filed at 7:49 a.m. ET

MOSCOW (AP) -- The recorders extracted from the wreckage of two planes that crashed nearly simultaneously have not revealed reliable information on the disasters' causes, a top Russian official was quoted as saying Thursday.

Vladimir Yakovlev, the Russian president's envoy for the southern region, where one of the planes crashed, also said that the main theory about the catastrophe ``all the same remains terrorism,'' the ITAR-Tass news agency said.

Officials have said that several possibilities were being investigated as the cause of the crashes that killed 89 people late Tuesday, including inferior fuel and human error and that they believed the planes' ``black box'' recorders would clarify the situation.

However, Yakovlev said that the recorders ``had gone out of service already before the fall of the airliners,'' ITAR-Tass said...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Russia-Plane-Crash.html

[TheShadow]

HOTDOG
A shotgun cartridge fired from a pen held in your hand. How devilishly clever (and brave)!
Well I can clearly recall in my early teens using, as both a gun (with steel ball-bearings and marbles) and as a shotgun (with airgun pellets) a handheld length of metal (lead) water pipe, closed off at one end and with a hole drilled for wick protrusion of penny bungers. It had a very effective aimable range of 20 to 30 yards against queues of empty beer bottles. It was a potentially lethal weapon out to a far greater distance. In fact we even built a mortar and that was my first fascinated fumbling with ballistics. If you've ever owned a pistol or small derringer you'd know that they can pack quite a wallop.


Can't say that I've ever had a real explosive decompression in a 4 eng airplane but in three different Air Forces I've had to undergo the annual AVMED training and that always included an explosive decompression in the chamber from FL250 (only). I imagine that FL330 would be an even more shocking and dazing experience. If I wanted to instantaneously (and then permanently) incapacitate the unknown of an airmarshal (or two) whilst giving the inaccessible boys up front a shock and some very distracting tasks, I'd go for the explosive (or at least rapid) decompression. Time of useful consciousness after rapid decomp is limited to about 30 odd seconds at FL330, but from your AVMED training you'd know that it depends upon the individual. But it’s going to be enough time to follow through.

This decompression was caused by a tyre failure
Narrative:
Flight SV162 experienced an explosive decompression of the cabin while climbing through 29,000 feet over international waters near the State of Qatar. The aircraft had departed Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, and was enroute to Karachi, Pakistan. An emergency descent was initiated and a successful landing was made at Doha International Airport in Qatar. Two passengers were killed when they were ejected from the aircraft through a hole in the cabin floor which had resulted from the forces of explosive decompression.

According to your theory that shouldn't have happened - but maybe you were just imagining a small calibre hole.

regarding Ignatchenko:
The Russian preference is obviously for the non-terrorist scenario. I hope that doesn't color the quality of their investigative zeal. I'd be far happier if the UKAAIB or NTSB was involved, even in observer status (only).

The only way to defeat terrorists is to outwit and out-think them. They only have to get it right once. Security is all about getting it right all the time - and I don't mean missing a pair of nail-clippers in hand-luggage. Whatever plan might have led to the downing of two airplanes simultaneously, a few things are starting to become clear:

a. Effective terrorism is all about having a non-complex and flexible plan and to the greatest extent possible, making it re-usable by concealing its detail (no PanAm103 piece of circuit-board that leads to a Swiss delay-fuse that's traceable to a Libyan Agent). The shoe bomber Reid was the first manifestation of that concept. "Nil residue, frustrate their forensics" I hear their master bomber saying.

b. They seek to maximize public and industry angst by reinforcing the concept that: "No matter what precautions you take, we can still get at you - and what's more, do it in multiples - just so that you know it's us. And you do know, don't you, even though the denials are vehement and official."

c. Muddying the waters by concealing whether or not it actually was a suicide action, sabotage, stowed luggage, hand luggage or a cargo-hold device.....acid, lithium, caustics, accelerants or a phial of nitro-glycerine in the wheel-well.

d. The problem with modern warfare is that the defenders are always strategizing based upon re-fighting the last campaign - yet the “offenders” are busy improvising, innovating, probing and exploiting your weak points (as perceived by them). Perhaps we do need more sensationalism and less denial.

Leave you with this thought in respect of the unburnt bodies. If I was sitting forward and started a fierce little fire that then cranked up a lot of smoke, where are the pax going to run to? Are they going to sit in their seats nearby as the smoke billows and fills the cabin, with belts on and burn? Don't think so. The phenomenon is called backrush – and it’s something that no-one wants to even envisage. But nevertheless the question arises. What does it do to your C of G and controllability when all of the pax are clustered cowering against the rear bulkhead?

More comprehensive, informed and convincing comeback please. And I always carry two pens, because they're always being pinched by other thoughtless people.

[SaturnV]

More from Pravda (English translation):

The recorders extracted from the wreckage of two planes that crashed nearly simultaneously have not revealed reliable information on the disasters' causes, a top Russian official was quoted as saying Thursday.

Vladimir Yakovlev, the Russian president's envoy for the southern region, where one of the planes crashed, also said that the main theory about the catastrophe "all the same remains terrorism," the ITAR-Tass news agency said.

Officials have said that several possibilities were being investigated as the cause of the crashes that killed 89 people late Tuesday, including inferior fuel and human error and that they believed the planes' "black box" recorders would clarify the situation.

A government commission appointed to investigate traveled Thursday to one of the crash sites, where a Tu-134 with 43 people aboard went down about 120 miles south of Moscow. Workers ended their search work there, but were continuing to comb the other wreckage of a Tu-154 with 46 people aboard that fell to earth in southern Russia.

Domodedovo airport said in a statement that both planes "went through the standard procedure of preparation for flight ...(and) the procedures were carried out properly."

Still, there was skepticism that technical failure or human error could bring down two planes at almost the same time hundreds of miles apart. "That's pretty far out there on the chance bar," said Bob Francis, former vice chairman of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, reports Associated Press.

The Russian Emergency Ministry told CNN crews had recovered the bodies of all 35 passengers and eight crew members flying aboard a Volga-Avia Express Tupolev 134 aircraft, but did not say how many bodies had been recovered from the second crash, a Siberia Airlines Tu-154.

The Siberia Airlines plane carried 38 passengers and eight crew, the airline said. Russian officials said the crash site spread over a 40-km radius.

Russian media poured scorn on official statements that the two plane crashes within minutes of one another were most likely the result of technical fault or human error.

"Russia now has its own September 11," said the headline of a frontpage article in Nezavisimaya Gazeta daily, in reference to the 2001 suicide attacks on the United States involving four hijacked commercial planes, which killed about 3,000 people.

From ITAR-TASS (English translation)

MOSCOW, August 26 (Itar-Tass) - Damage caused to the cockpit voice and flight data recorders recovered from the wreckages of two passenger planes that crashed near Rostov and Tula on Tuesday evening will not prevent recovering information from all five devices in full, a source close to the investigation team has said.

According to the expert, the quality of recording contained in the flight data recorder of the Tupolev-134 that fell near Tula is bad, but data is recoverable. The recording of conversations of the plane’s crew is being studied.

The decoding of information from the three black boxes of the Tupolev-154 that crashed near Rostov is in progress.

The presidential representative in the Southern Federal District, Vladimir Yakovlev, a short while earlier said the examination of black boxes retrieved from the wreckages had provided no authentic clues yet as to what might have caused the disasters.

Speaking upon arrival at the site of the Tupolev-154 crash in the Rostov region, Yakovlev said the black boxes had been out of order before the liners crashed.

In his opinion terrorism remains the main version behind both cases.

[PAXboy]

Conspiracy theory coming up!!

They have found the answer in the Boxes but say that the info was not conclusive as this allows them to keep 'searching for the criminals'.... :E

[OVERTALK]

The Shadow

Why would they need an aerosol spray-can of accelerant? Vodka is highly inflammable is it not? That would do the job and being a Russian airliner it would be available in copious quantities.

Otherwise the theory seems credible. Maybe there are accelerants like petrol (or better) that would cause a fire to propagate further and faster. An accelerant with its own oxidizer would do even better after a decompression. Incendigel maybe? (aka napalm). That's not hard to make. I can imagine the fire-fighting being non-effective after a decompression, even assuming that the pilots got quickly established in a full-blown emergency descent. The cabin vulnerability and inability to effectively fight a sudden fire would be optimized for the terrorists by their having first caused a decompression event.

That's a multiple compounded complex emergency that I just don't want to even think about. Not sure how the sudden appearance of the rubber jungle would affect the propagation of a fire (with oxygen and all - and the masks catching fire). If I was sitting up front behind my locked door I'd imagine that I'd have no idea whatsoever of what was going on down the back.

I'm also beginning to suspect that both the TU-134 and TU-154 passenger lists are best guesses only. Haven't seen any consistent figures being cited. That might mean that individual identities may never be established - and the presence (or absence) of bad guys eventually may remain "an unknown". If so, that's not good. It increases the fear factor.

[Flight Safety]

I'm not clear on the condition of the flight recorders.

Were the recorders working sometime during the flights, and did they record data during the flights? Were the recorders stopped manually sometime before the end of the flights? Were the recorders stopped during inflight breakups? Were the recorders damaged by the crashes, thus making data difficult or impossible to recover?

I think what happened to the flight recorders could yield some interesting clues, besides the recorder data itself.

[Phileas Fogg]

I don't believe this, it has yet to be established if it was terrorism, sabotage, technical or whatever and some jerks are talking about if it were vodka, petrol or a home-made gun that bought the aircraft down.
Please spare a thought for the bereaved!

[DingerX]

come on, we all know the real way to do it:

A) If you are not female, dress up as one..
B) Carry on:
1) 3 feet of surgical tubing.
2) A cellphone-gun, which also works works as a cellphone
3) A directional antenna for said cellphone
4) A bayonet concealed in the handle of a pastry brush
5) 3 liters of barrel-strength scotch (preferably single malt)
6) A fake infant doll.
7) blankets
8) A tautly written political-religious manifesto

Put the whisky in an aerosol container, and wire the release to start on a timer triggered by the outer marker of the reciprocal ILS approach to your departure runway. Stuff the contraption in the infant doll, and wrap it in blankets. Carry it on. If anyone asks, "little Glen" is sleeping. If anyone comments on the alcohol smell, explain that he just had his 1-month-old birthday party.
On board, insist that Glen gets airsick unless he's sleeping right below one of the portable O2 bottles in the overhead bins.
After takeoff, walk down the aisle, and give the cellphone-gun and antenna to some hapless passenger. Explain that you're waiting for an important call, his seat has better reception (since where you're sitting hte hydraulics are preventing you from getting a clear signal) and could he please cock the gun and point it out the window, while moving the antenna lengthwise along the floor, to improve the chances of staying on a given cell station.

naturally, he will agree.

Go back to your seat. When the timer on the baby is one minute from startsing the flow of scotch, pick up the airfone, and call your ccellphone. The guy holding itwill be so startled, h\e'll pull the trigger, and maybe puncture the window.
The discharging of a firearm in the cabin will surely cause some confusion, so while they're busy subduing that guy, scream "my baby" and toss the doll into the nearest seat where the sound system isn't working. Stand up and grab the O2 bottle.
Now, get out the surgical tubing and the pastry brush. Remove the bayonet, and cut off just enough tubing to run from your seat to the baby. Stick the tube into the O2 bottle, put the other end on the baby, and start the flow.
the sparks from the audio system should start the conflagration.

Now, pull out your manifesto, remove your wig, and stand in the back of the plane, reading it line-by-line.



Er, seriously, explosive decompression is gonna need a lot more than a window going out. With any system as complicated as commercial aviation, where each flight involves the interaction of thousands of people, there are going to be plenty of ways for motivated persons and individuals to catastrophically break it. Most of those ways are pretty simple.
Fatal accidents are very rare and spectucular occurrences. If they're not intentional, they often involve freak circumstances; for these reasons, they attract conspiracy theorists. Heck they attract conspiracy theorists even when they're intentional. I'm waiting for the first "It was a radical group of Elks, intent on turning Israel into a Buddhist State" post.
Contaminated Fuel would have to be contaminated to the degree that it either leaves no traces of its presence (as in the case of all the other flights that used it) or causes massive structural failure.
Sorry, unless there's some other surreal possibility, such as a ramp "fender benders" that nobody noticed, it looks like bombs, a fairly common cause of in-flight breakups, unfortunately.

[Wino]

SHADOW,

Find a copy of the show from the Discovery channel called "MYTHBUSTERS". They tested your theories at length and completely debunked them. episode 10 from season 1 (http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/episode/episode.html)

They took powerfull handgun rounds and fired them at aircraft windows (and all around the rest of the structure of a DC-9 that was FULLY pressurized.)

Made a hole in the window about the size of a quarter. All around the test dummies in that seat they spread those styrofoam packing peanuts. None of them were even disturbed by the tiny amount of air leaking out of the small hole. The window did not blow, and neither did the fuselage when hit by the small arms fire. They then set a bomb off against a window, and the pressure SLOWLY leaked out of the aircraft when the window was blown out of the frame, again, not really disturbing the passengers seated nearby (except for the effects of the bomb) In effect a bomb against the window of the aircraft is pretty similar to the least risk bomb location for your aircraft anyway (though somewhat smaller in size)

It took setting a sizeable bomb to actually cause a decompression of the aircraft. And that bomb blew out a lot more than a window.

Even if you actually lost the window the "Glass" (It aint glass which is why it doesnt shatter but sure dues scratch when they clean it badly) wouldn't be how you would lose the whole window pressure in the cabin very fast. The outflow valves are the same size as the windows or larger, so in effect the loss of a window would be the same as a controlled cabin dump as in a smoke clearing procedure.


The concept of losing a window from gun fire or your improvized weapon is a very nice hollywood story line, but neither realistic nor a threat to the aircraft.

Cheers
Wino

[Boss Raptor]

Considering that few of you, except for a couple of people here, have any experience with Russian aircraft or their operation or the workings of Russian SSCA/MAK accident investigation or the workings of the FSB/Russian Interior Ministry or the Russian methodology of handling such events...

I would suggest that such speculation as above is both premature and pointless until further in depth official investigation has revealed conclusive substance/direction to the happenings...as well as being highly insensitive and disrespectful under the circumstance...and especially insensitive/misleading should our constant shadow of the Media/Journos here on PPrune pick up on such unqualified comment and publish to be seen by all and sundry including the relatives of those concerned :*

[Globally]

This is not the first time two airplanes crashed on the same day from the same organization. I seem to recall two USAF C-141s crashing on the same day, I believe one in Sondrestrom, Greenland (during landing), and the other in the UK (thunderstorm) back in the mid 1970s. These airplanes crashed hours apart, however, not minutes, as in this Russia situation.

[eal401]

Wino, thanks for that info, very interesting.

BR, your attention is drawn to the title of this forum, specifically the word "Rumours." If you don't like what's being written, no need to read it!! But if what is being discussed couldn't be, they would be little point having this forum.

[Phileas Fogg]

eal401,
I don't believe that just a little sensitivity would be too much to ask for given the tragic circumstances.

[Boss Raptor]

'Rumours' is one thing - insensitive and unqualified speculation is another - particularly as it is known from experience that such comment on Pprune is picked up and (mis)used by our 'friends' in the media

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Also two TAM Fokker 100s crashed within an hour of each other in Brazil on 30 August 2002 - small incidents, neither fatal. For what it's worth.

[SaturnV]

Flight Safety:

As I read the English translation of the ITAR-TASS report, the answers to your questions are:

Were the recorders working sometime during the flights, and did they record data during the flights?
A. Yes

Were the recorders stopped manually sometime before the end of the flights?
A. Apparently not.

Were the recorders stopped during inflight breakups?
A. Yes, and perhaps slightly before. The TU-154 almost certainly broke up at altitude. I did not post a separate Pravda story which quite graphically described the condition of bodies recovered from within part of the TU-154 fuselage. But the description would be consistent with trauma primarily caused by a high spped airstream hitting the body. (Bodies that landed apart from the fuselage seem to have suffered less trauma.) The TU-134 wreckage debris field is apparently much smaller than for the TU-134, so this flight may not have broken up at high altitude.

Were the recorders damaged by the crashes, thus making data difficult or impossible to recover
A. Yes, to damage to all five recorders (three on the TU-154, and two on the TU-134.) Yes, to the difficulty or recovery. A conditional No regarding the impossibility of data recovery.

[Airbubba]

>>This is not the first time two airplanes crashed on the same day from the same organization.<<

Yet another example was bizjet operator Grand Aire:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=86650

Terrorism was initially suspected but later ruled out.

[Anti-ice]

Its very sad for those involved and a very unusual pair of accidents.

I think people on here should be wary with security details and SOP's and also not go into detailed conspiracy theories that could encourage some nutter to carry out similar actions of their own....

Perhaps the mods should remove some of the detail.

I've only scanned this thread but i'm quite shocked at the suggestions of how to bring down an airliner.
If you do work on one , is that what you really want to do?

[747FOCAL]

Anti - Ice,

The methods suggested are only what is obvious to the most casual of observers. I am sure that a lot of us here know how to bring down an airliner in ways that are much easier and unthinkable to the avg terrorist. :)

[LatviaCalling]

A few more thoughts regarding my previous postings on this subject.

In every news report quoting the Russians there has emerged the possibility of pilot error. I've noticed that this issue has been glanced over and none of the Russian authorities have ever alluded to possible specifics. As far as I know, both planes were flying straight and level at the times of their crashes. It would seem very unlikely to me that a pilot or a co-pilot suddenly decided to do a Stuka run on the terrain. Therefore, it leads to the suggestion that something went terribly wrong with the aircraft to cause them to drop out of the sky within seconds -- whatever it was.

Secondly, if you think that some of the Western countries aviation examiners are bad (FAA & Egypt Air), the Russians are a whole world upon theirselves. If, indeed, this was a Chechyen attack, it may be too close to home, and the Russian authorities may decide to withhold any evidence that could point to them. After all, Russia flies a hell of a lot of people every day and you wouldn't want to put a damper on that. Remember what happened after 9/11 -- airline bookings were down up to 30%.

[HotDog]

My dear Shadow,

Two passengers were killed when they were ejected from the aircraft through a hole in the cabin floor which had resulted from the forces of explosive decompression

A bit of journalistic license here IMHO. The hole in the floor was caused by a tire explosion, which resulted in an explosive decompression. Without a doubt, an emergency descent had to be carried out by the crew and pax had to don the O2 masks that deployed.

The B747, which accounts for 11,000 hours out of a total of 18,600 in my logbook, has two outflow valves, each about the size of two cabin windows. Even if you managed to get your lead pipe with a 22 gauge shotgun cartridge in it through security, and managed to get a window seat and managed to blow out a whole cabin window, it is doubtful wheter an emergency descent would be necessary. However, we are talking about a concealable weapon, the size of a fountain pen.

Give us a break mate, none of your scenarios has brought down those two Russian aircraft so let's wait until the real reason for this disaster is discovered.

[broadreach]

Shadow and HotDog,
Please, desist, or carry on privately.

[lomapaseo]

Shadow and HotDog,
Please, desist, or carry on privately.

I see nothing wrong in refutation of alleged facts with counterfacts and analysis.

To allow the initial substantiations of Shadow to stand unrefuted diminishes the credibility of this forum.

[Airbubba]

Top Russian Official: Plane Terror Likely

Aug 26, 9:40 PM (ET)

By MARIA DANILOVA

MOSCOW (AP) - A top Russian official acknowledged Thursday what many citizens already suspected - that terrorism was the most likely cause of two jetliners crashing minutes apart, a feeling reflected in a newspaper headline warning that "Russia now has a Sept. 11."

A day after officials stressed there were many possibilities besides terrorism, presidential envoy Vladimir Yakovlev told Russia's ITAR-Tass news agency that the main theory "all the same remains terrorism."

Yakovlev said the planes' flight recorders provide no clues to the disaster. He said both boxes had shut off abruptly without any indication of trouble, a sign U.S. aviation experts said was strong evidence of explosions.

Also, Transport Minister Igor Levitin confirmed Sibir airlines' report that its crew activated an emergency signal shortly before the plane disappeared from radar. Visiting the crash site, however, he said that details were slim because "no verbal confirmation from the crew was received" saying what the problem was.

Officials previously said there was no indication of trouble from a Volga-Aviaexpress airliner that also crashed late Tuesday, although people on the ground reported hearing a series of explosions.

Russian media also raised questions about a possible link between the crashes and an explosion a few hours earlier at a bus stop on a road leading to Domodedovo airport, where the two doomed planes took off. Without citing evidence, the reports suggested the blast, which wounded four people, might have been an effort to distract attention.

Suspicions of terrorism came after warnings from officials that separatists might plan attacks before an election this Sunday in Chechnya to replace the war-torn region's assassinated pro-Kremlin president. The rebels have made attacks in Moscow and other cities, hijacked planes outside Russia and allegedly staged suicide bombings.

"I am inclined to think that it is a terrorist act, because there are too many coincidences," said Ruben Suryaninov, an elderly retiree. "What needs to happen so that two planes going from the same airport would bang at the same moment?"

"It's too suspicious," agreed Natalia Kozhelupova, a physicist who was out on a national day of mourning for the 89 people killed in the crashes. Russia's tricolor flag flew at half-staff and television canceled entertainment programs...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040827/D84N925G1.html

[Phileas Fogg]

If, and that is a big IF, this was the Chechnian's then there are a few things that don't add up.

They have a 'beef' with the Russian goverment, the Russian goverment hold something like a 50% shareholding in the state airline, if one wishes to hit the goverment where it hurts then why go for 2 independent airlines?

Of course, the state airline operates from Moscow SVO, not DME, so is security too tight at SVO or is there a DME connection?

And, unless such a group were Moscow based why go for a Moscow airport at all? Anyone that has travelled around the CIS regions knows that security is more relaxed at the regional airports.

[A-FLOOR]

From the BBC:


Russian officials say traces of explosive have been found amid the wreckage of one of two airliners that crashed on Tuesday.

Russian news agency Interfax quoted the FSB security service as saying at least one of the almost simultaneous crashes was a "terrorist act".

Investigators are still working to decode the flight data recorders from the crashes, which left 89 people dead.

Inquiry chief Igor Levitin said he had no "clear idea as to what happened".

On Thursday, Russia observed a day of mourning for those aboard the airliners, whose bodies have all now been found.

Double crash mystery

The Tu-134 and Tu-154 crashed within minutes of each other over southern Russia, coming down about 800km (500 miles) apart.

1. Domodedovo Airport
1735 : A Sibir Airlines Tu-154 bound for Sochi departs
1815 : A Volga-Aviaexpress Tu-134 leaves for Volgograd
1856 : Contact lost with Tu-134
1859 : Contact lost with Tu-154
2. Tula region
Wreckage from Tu-134 found near the village of Buchalki soon after contact is lost
3. Rostov-on-Don
0400 (approx): Wreckage from Tu-154 found
(All times in GMT)

Itar-Tass says the traces of explosives were found in the wreckage of the Tu-154, which crashed with more than 40 people on board.

Officially a number of different theories are being investigated including technical failure and human error but terrorism has not been ruled out, the BBC's Steve Rosenberg reports from Moscow.

The crashes came just days before a presidential election in war-ravaged Chechnya, where separatists recently stepped up attacks on Russian forces and their local allies.

Transport Minister Igor Levitin, who heads the government commission investigating the crashes, said on Thursday that more time was needed to decode the "black boxes".

"Not all the flight recorders are in a condition that would allow them to be read immediately," he said before flying to Tula Region, where one of the planes crashed.

"Today and tomorrow we will work on them in order to bring the tape to a condition that will allow us to read what happened."

President Vladimir Putin's envoy to southern Russia told reporters that the black boxes had "practically switched off immediately".

Vladimir Yakovlev said this was "probably more confirmation... that something had happened very quickly".

Investigators have continued to sift through the wreckage scattered over fields in Tula and Rostov Region.

Mystery passenger

Russian flags flew at half-mast on Thursday and light entertainment was withdrawn from theatre and television schedules.

Passenger lists indicate that all the victims were Russian, apart from one Israeli.

The vast majority appear to have been ethnic Russians while there has been some speculation that a woman passenger aboard the Tu-154 may have been a Chechen.

"We have no information that she was a terrorist," said Mr Levitin, adding that investigators wanted to know why no one had come to claim her body.

Russia's newspapers have largely poured scorn on the official line that the cause of the crashes was probably technical or human error.

"Despite the titanic efforts of state television, we are not all imbeciles just yet," said an editorial in Moskovsky Komsomolets.

"Now Russia has its own 11 September," said the headline in Nezavisimaya Gazeta.

The victims' families are to receive 112,000 roubles ($3,800) each in compensation - unless it is proven that terrorism was to blame, in which case they would receive less.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3604134.stm

I'd say this should end any doubts. :sad:

[YYZ]

On Radio one just now that a Muslim Militant group has claimed responsibility for both crashes in revenge for the Muslims killed in Chechnya.

[Capt.KAOS]

"Our mujahideen in the Islambouli Brigades were able to hijack two Russian planes and they were successful despite the obstacles that faced them at the beginning. There were five (mujahideen) in each plane," said the Arabic-language statement, whose authenticity could not be verified.

"Our mujahedeen, with God's grace, succeeded in directing the first blow which will be followed by a series of other operations in a wave to extend support and victory to our Muslim brothers in Chechnya and other Muslim areas which suffer from Russian faithlessness."

Flying in Russia now will be even more Russian Roulette :(

LINK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1292227,00.html)

[SaturnV]

Both ITAR-TASS and Pravda identify the explosive residue as Hexogen, or cyclotrimethylene trinitramine. More commonly known in the West as RDX, it is usually combined with other materials to form various military explosives, including plastic explosives.

Pravda provides much more detail on a female passenger on each flight who is under suspicion. Pravda indicates that the wreckage pattern for both planes has the tail section landing forward of the cockpit. English translation of the Pravda article follows:

The Russian Federal Security bureau and the Internal Affairs Ministry started searching for terrorists on board the two crashed jetliners Tu-134 and Tu-154. However, the double terrorist act is still not considered the key version.

Investigators paid attention to two women. As official lists of victims run, S.Jebirkhanova was flying aboard the Tu-154 and Amanta Salm.Nagayeva was a passenger of the Tu-134 liner. Siberia airline entailed the first suspicion: soon after the crashes spokespeople for the airline said there were reasons to believe it was a terrorist act. It was particularly said that Jebirkhanova was the only passenger of the plane, whose relatives did not make their presence known after the crash.

Police officers have not found out anything about the first suspect yet. A mistake was found in her ticket registration records: Nagayeva's middle name was spelled Salm. (meaning Salmanova), although she was Suleymanova. The woman was born in the settlement of Kirov, the Vedeno district of Chechnya and then she moved to Grozny. "A young single woman, she was not notable for anything. We do not have the information to prove her links with terrorists, the investigation is underway," a spokesperson for the Interior Affairs Ministry said.

Jebirkhanova raises a lot more suspicions. Investigators determined that the woman's airplane ticket mentioned only her last name. Jebirkhanova's first name was put down as a first letter only v S., her middle name was not entered at all. "We are conducting an internal investigation on the matter," a spokesman for Siberia airline said.

Reporters from the Gazeta newspaper have managed to get acquainted with preliminary experts' conclusions about the reasons of the two plane crashes. The conclusions were included in the report for the presidential envoy in the southern administrative district, Vladimir Yakovlev. Yakovlev was the first official, who stated that the two liners crashed because of the terrorist act.

The pilots of the two planes, the Gazeta wrote, pressed the alarm buttons several moments prior to the tragedy. The Tu-154 plane, which crashed in the Rostov region of Russia, sent an SOS. The crew of the Tu-134 crashed in the Tula region managed to transmit: "The plane has been attacked."

Specialists on explosions found detonation traces on the crash sites. According to preliminary analysis, it is hexogen. At first they were confused with the fact that there were no such traces detected either in the passenger saloons or in the front parts of the two planes. However, specialists found a piece of hull paneling torn up by the roots with the porthole in the rear part of the Tu-154, where the toilet was. Experts believe that it testifies to a small local explosion, which separated the rear part of the jetliner, it spun and fell to pieces.

The results of works on the crash sites confirm such a supposition. The situation is similar in both cases: at first there is the hull on the ground, then there is the front part with the cockpit, followed with the rear part of the plane. If the plane fell apart in the air without any explosion, the tail would fall down on the ground behind the hull, not in front of the cockpit as it virtually happened.

[InTheAir]

"In a website statement on Friday, a group called the Islamic Brigades said it had five people on board each aircraft. It warned this act would be followed by others "until the killings of our Muslim brothers in Chechnya cease".

I agree, this is now looking like some sort of malicious act but
anyone else find it amazing how the media can get away with lazy comments such as the above without backing themselves up with a source? A mere "comment" on an unknown website (which they will not digress) by "someone" claiming to be behind the events? Surrrree.

How easy is set to set up a website and then host a forum (like this one) and then for some stranger to come along and register a terrorist-like name and lay claim to something they didn't do?Answer: Very easy.

[Phileas Fogg]

August 27, 2004

13:02, Moscow time
Siberia Airlines official statement


In examining the fragments of the Tu-154 aircraft, the traces of explosive were found. The preliminary testing showed it to be cyclonite, said Sergey Ignatchenko, the head of the public relations center of the Federal Security Service, to the Interfax information agency. The operative investigation discovered information, allowing identification of persons, who are likely to be related to the terrorist act on board Tu-154.

[INTEL101]

Cyclonite, Hexogen, RDX - its all the same stuff. See:

http://www.saudiform.com/hexamine.html#PHYSICAL

Funny that the first website in English you get when you Google Hexogen is a Saudi one.

But anyway it's a white crystalline granular compound visually indistinguishable from sugar. The only way you can distinguish it is with an infra-red spectrometer or possibly with one of the new scanners at:

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/84/84371_airports_security_is_now_a_breeze_.html

But until such scanners have been installed at all bagagge scanning points watch out for people carrying bags of groceries with them on to your aircraft.

[A-FLOOR]

The Dutch NOS news reports the two aircraft each had a woman of Chechen origin on board, who both bought their tickets about one hour before their departure. Also apparently no-one (not even family) has contacted the airlines or authorities to inform about their fate. :ooh:

Hmm. :hmm:

[kuningan]

Pravda now suggests 'bomb in toilet at rear of a/c':

However, specialists found a piece of hull paneling torn up by the roots with the porthole in the rear part of the Tu-154, where the toilet was. Experts believe that it testifies to a small local explosion, which separated the rear part of the jetliner, it spun and fell to pieces.

Full text here (http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/13922_terrorist.html)

[Phileas Fogg]

God Bless:

Crew
The crew of the TU-154 aircraft conducting the flight Moscow-Sochi was made up of the flight crew of the 4th air squadron of Aircraft Division 3 (Moscow) and a team of stewards from the Altai branch of the air company.

The pilot-in-command, 1st class pilot, Michail Leonidovitch Guryev, was a very experienced pilot with clearance to fly on international routes. He was born in 1956, and was a graduate from the Balashov Higher Military Aviation School. He had over 5700 flying hours, 3500 of which he was the pilot-in-command on TU-154 planes.

Second pilot, Yuri Viktorovitch Andruschenko, born in 1970, graduated from the Kirovograd Higher Flying School. A 2nd class pilot who did most of his flight time of 3800 hours on TU-154.

The navigator, Stepan Aleksandrovitch Korol, was born in 1964. He was awarded the 1st class in 1997. His total flight time was over 9000 hours.

The flight engineer, Andrey Vladimirovitch Ermolaev, born in 1966, had 2nd class rating and the total flight time of over 3200 hours. He also had clearance for international flights.

According to superiors and colleagues, they were all excellent aviation specialists and highly professional pilots. During the preceding flight work they did not have any flight occurrences or incidents. In December 2003 - May 2004, all four passed tests for practical work in the air.

The backbone of the cabin crew consisted of experienced 2nd class stewards with the flight experience of 11 to 14 years. These are: chief air steward Olga Sergeevna Bykovskaya, born 1963, and stewards Sergey Vladimirovitch Ivanov, born 1966, and Yana Gennadyevna Tarsukova, born 1974. They were real mentors for the 25-year-old Marina Khudeeva, a 3rd class steward with the flight experience of just over a year.

All personnel of Siberia Airlines mourn the loss of colleagues and partners, close friends and excellent specialists who remained true to their professional duty to the very end.

[LatviaCalling]

I note that CNN, which played up the Islamic Brigade web page angle earlier in the day, has completely backed off without any mention of it or any other terrorist claims. Apparently not a very trustworthy source.

[Havana]

Ok I am just humble cabin crew but I would like to ask the assembled expert's in their opion:-

1/ Could a 'small' explosive charge blow the arse off the aircraft in what I would have though a fairly safe place.
2/ Could/Would there have been any warning, that is does the explosive just explode and goodbye or is there just a small bang and the aircraft structure fail.
3/ Given enough warning after take off, could the flight have been saved ? (that is anything the CC should watch for)

4/ At a guess how would the same senario affect a 737/A320 and a 747/A330 ?

I fully understand replies not being posted on a public forum if felt sensitive to security.

H

[Capt. Inop]

Seems to me like an act of terrorism, nothing more to say about that...
Read a story (about a forum member from Florida)
Throwing frozen chickens into turbofan engines, funny reading, actualy learnd something to :ok:

[exeng]

Ok I am just humble cabin crew

You are a very important part of the team. You are the last stop when it comes to security. Most Pilots will value your input in this area.

1/ Could a 'small' explosive charge blow the arse off the aircraft in what I would have though a fairly safe place.

Yes I'm afraid so. We need to prevent that explosive ever reaching the aircraft.

2/ Could/Would there have been any warning, that is does the explosive just explode and goodbye or is there just a small bang and the aircraft structure fail.

There is probably a large bang followed by immediate structural failure and goodbye.

3/ Given enough warning after take off, could the flight have been saved ? (that is anything the CC should watch for)

It is always best to be watchful for suspicious behaviour, however in these two terrible crimes I doubt if the Cabin Crew could have prevented the results. Perhaps if pax use the toilets before departure it might be good idea to check the toilet for unusual objects?

4/ At a guess how would the same senario affect a 737/A320 and a 747/A330 ?

Probably in exactly the same way.


Regards
Exeng

[74tweaker]

Remember - it was only about a pound of explosive that brought down Pan Am 107. It doesn't take a whole lot.

[kuningan]

Latest (27/8) from Pravda suggests that: The pilots of both the planes gave SOS signals, the damages of both the planes were identical - their tails were torn in the air, Full text here (http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/382/13929_crash.html)

[Avman]

The question now is: are the security systems in place in the west better able to spot potential bomb material, or is the west as vulnerable to what happened in Russia. I ask this because I have no clue as to the level and standards of Russian aviation security.

[SaturnV]

According to the Washington Post this morning, Russian planes, such as the TU-154, have distress buttons in the cockpit, galley, and elsewhere in the cabin. The cockpit door is bulletproof and locked. It appears that only the pilots are able to transmit a hijacking signal using a special four digit code. This suggests the cabin crew may have sent the distress signal from the TU-154.

This same article reports that a TU-134 pilot said that during training, they were told that 400 grams of explosive was sufficient to blow a basketball-sized hole in the hull of an aircraft, causing a violent decompression at cruising altitude.

A separate,lengthy article in the Washington Post discusses how ill-prepared the United States is to prevent suicide bombings on aircraft. Both Congress and the 9-11 Commission have urged the Transportation Security Agency (TSA) to take steps to screen passengers for explosives. TSA said it will buy 10 machines for use in five airports as a test. (On a sidenote, TSA ran a month-long test of these machines at a lightly used passenger train station earlier this summer following the train bombings in Madrid.) The TSA test is to occur this summer, although the article implied it has yet to begin.

The explosive detector machines are made by General Electric and the Smiths Group PLC. They cost about $150,000 apiece. Their biggest drawback is that it takes about 15 seconds per passenger to do the screening. Also, they may have difficulty in detecting well-packaged and well-hidden plastic explosives.

[stickyb]

The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3607886.stm) are now reporting that explosive has been found in the 2nd aircraft

[vaneyck]

Cyclonite, Hexogen, RDX - its all the same stuff. See:

http://www.saudiform.com/hexamine.html#PHYSICAL

Funny that the first website in English you get when you Google Hexogen is a Saudi one.
Funny that the second site you get in Google for Cyclonite tells you how to make the stuff in bomb-sized batches. The writer points out that most articles only give recipes for industrial quantities. So he feels he is doing a public service, I guess.Just what the world needs!

I just edited out the URL, but I suppose those who want to do these things already know how to find them.

[Row 12F]

My Google search produced an entry for Boy Scout emergency firelighters as the first line. That seemed innocuous enough but later a site for a manufacturer of hexamine was indicated, which stated that -

"Sina Chemical Industries Co. (SCIC) as a Public Joint Stock company was established in 1989 in a plant with 80,000m² area located in Shiraz, south of Iran. It is an independent operating company and the most leading Formalin producer in Iran. Beside Formalin plant, there is a plant for producing Hexamine. The plants use optimized processing methods that guarantee a product of consistently high quality.
The excellence of after sales service has been firmly established over many years, and forms the backbone of the company's success.
SCIC is committed to development and is seeking for profitable investment opportunities, particularly in the design of Formaldehyde derivatives plants, so accepts the proposals in this field.
Because of the excellent quality of products, we are exporting Hexamine to various countries such as Germany, Taiwan, Korea, Pakistan, UK and many others. So do not hesitate to contact us for further information. "

Looks like a long job curtailing Hexamine, if that is part of the answer.

[BEagle]

Distasteful as I know this will sound, but I do not think it beyond the bounds of possibility that these murderers may have smuggled explosives onto the aeroplane concealed in a body cavity. A simpler task for a female than for a male.

Perhaps bomb-sniffing dogs should be positioned at more airport gates - although 100% cover would clearly be impossible.

RIP

[RatherBeFlying]

Article in Independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=556258)

If all it takes is something that small in the toilet :(

As with the initial Comet and the 747 off Taiwan accidents, a pressure vessel failure by the ends of the fuselage is very bad news. I'm guessing that there was enough time between the initial breach and breakup for the crew to put out a distress alarm.

[Check 6]

Here are the best explosives detectors around. The eXaminer 3DX®6000 (http://www.dsxray.com/Linescan.asp?ProductCode=eXaminer6) and the VCT30 (http://www.dsxray.com/Linescan.asp?ProductCode=VCT30) , both made by L-3 Communications.

Check 6

[kuningan]

Ratherbeflying wrote:

As with the initial Comet and the 747 off Taiwan accidents, a pressure vessel failure by the ends of the fuselage is very bad news.

Ratherbeflying - I thought the Comet failures were the result of tears around hull cut outs for aerials, rather than pressure bulkead failure? As for CI611 I hadn't read a report yet - the NTSB simply say 'Taiwan is investigating' - earlier I'd seen some discussion around cargo door blow out - do you have more uptodate info?

Peter

[RatherBeFlying]

Kunigan, my fading brain cells only recall the initial Comet failure somewhere near the cockpit end; CI611 preliminary reports indicate initial failure around a previous tailstrike repair as has been extensively discussed on pprune.

Contrast that to the 747 losing a cargo door departing Hawaii, the L1011 blowing a tire on climbout over the Arabian peninsula and the 737 that lost the cabin roof in Hawaii where successfull landings were made.

[willywick]

Another article which confirms the crash was most likely a terrorist attack. Very worying if it is indeed true.

http://nowaviation.com/content/view/76//

Regards,
WW

[HotDog]

Kuningan, correct. Hereby an excerpt from the Comet archives:

An examination of aircraft wreckage recovered after a crash discovered a crack forming in the corner of an aerial cut-out, while tests on the ground burst a plane open at the corner of one of its famous square windows. The corners of the square windows effectively acted as stress concentrators and the metal fatigue occurred because of crystalline changes in the fuselage skin.

The antenna in question was an ADF loop antenna, two of which were located in the top of the forward fuselage.

[Deaf]

Comet stuff is irrelevant

The inquiry into the 2 major Comet crashes was basically a coverup in true Brit fashion. The chain was:

The name: Dehavilland had an appalling record of in-flight structural failures - why should model 104 be any different

Came unglued: Save rivets by gee whiz glue (most difficult thing for the judge and barristers to cover up)

Metal fatigue: Nobody had heard of it, totally new problem so nobody be blamed. Except N.S. Norway who wrote a popular novel about it, fortunately he was on the other side of the world so he could be ignored even though he had been an aeronautical engineer and knew all the players at DH and Airspeed. Why wasn't he aked about it for for the inquiry? - all part of the coverup old boy.

I would not belive anything in the Comet investigation other than the regos and the casualties

[HotDog]

Yes indeed. There were about 20 Comet crashes in all, killing some 500 people; (not all due to the original causes). However, it is still in service as a maritime reconnassaince aircraft with the military. BAe have a contract to upgrade the airframe to the MRA 4 with new wings and RB168-20 Speys. The program is late and over budget at a cost of 2.4 billion pounds of taxpayer's money. Not expected in service before 2005.

My apologies for hijacking this thread, but I didn't start it.

[SaturnV]

The FDRs have been read and the head of the investigation concludes it was an act of terrorism. From ITAR-TASS, a Russian news agency.

MOSCOW, August 29 (Itar-Tass) -- Igor Levitin, Transport Minister and head of the commission investigating the crash of Tu-134 and Tu-154 planes, said that their main theory is terrorist act.

“The commission keeps working, and we are considering all theories. The Federal Security Service said they had found traces of hexogen and main efforts are concentrated on that theory,” Levitin told Channel 1.

Information from flight recorders has been deciphered. “We can tell by their parameters that the plane disintegrated at the cruising altitude,” Levitin said.

Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine (Hexogen) is rarely used by itself. It can lead to seizures if inhaled or eaten, and is somewhat unstable. More likely is the hexogen found in the wreckage was part of a plastic explosive such as C-3, C-4, or Cyclotol

[cringe]

News update: The suspected suicide bombers shared an appartment in Grozny. They left Chechnya on a bus two days before the crashes, together with two other female flatmates who remain unaccounted for.

Russian plane suspects were friends from Chechnya (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040830/wl_afp/russia_attacks_suspects_040830121111)

Izvestia article (Russian) (http://www.izvestia.ru/conflict/article328428)

[Airbubba]

Suspected Chechen Women Had Been Detained

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: September 15, 2004

Filed at 3:04 p.m. ET

MOSCOW (AP) -- Two Chechen women suspected of blowing up Russian passenger jets last month were briefly detained by police before the flights but bribed at least one airline employee to get on the planes, media reports said Wednesday.

One of the alleged suicide bombers used an intermediary to pay $34 to a Sibir airlines employee to board a jet, even though she had a ticket for a flight the next day, the Interfax news agency quoted Russia's Prosecutor General Vladimir Ustinov as saying. She got on the plane two minutes before check-in closed, he said.

The same intermediary also took a bribe from the other alleged suicide bomber to get on a Volga-Aviaexpress flight, he said.

Ustinov said both the intermediary and the Sibir airline employee have been arrested.

The two planes crashed almost simultaneously on the night of Aug. 24 after taking off from Moscow's Domodyedovo airport, killing 90 people.

Russian Transport Minister Igor Levitin said laboratory tests of the wreckage of the Sibir Tu-154 and the Volga-Aviaexpress Tu-134 confirmed the explosions that brought down the two planes both occurred in passenger cabins, reinforcing the suspicion that the two Chechen women were suicide bombers.

He said explosive residue and information from the planes' flight data recorders pointed to an explosion in the main cabin.

The women arrived at the airport the evening of Aug. 24, accompanied by two other Chechens, Ustinov told Interfax.

``Police officers spotted them, confiscated their passports and handed them over to a police captain responsible for anti-terrorism operations to examine their belongings,'' he was quoted as saying. ``The captain let them go without any check, and they started to try to obtain tickets in the same buildings.''

It is not unusual for Chechens to be stopped by police in Moscow for questioning.

One of the women had purchased a ticket for a flight scheduled the next day but -- after paying the bribe -- got on the earlier flight two minutes before check-in closed, Ustinov said.

[Jellied Eels]

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/09/17/003.html

500 Rubles Clears the Path to the Airplane

By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer People who privately sell and swap airline tickets -- like the person who helped two suspected suicide bombers board the planes that crashed almost simultaneously last month -- are still out in full force in airports, and a bribe of as little as 500 rubles ($17) can get anybody on board a domestic flight, according to aviation officials and media reports.

"Everybody knows them and everybody loves them, including the police, because they bring in extra profits," an airline official said. "These are mostly former airport employees -- baggage handlers or porters. They know everyone in the airport."

"Arutyunov is jobless but a former Domodedovo employee," the official said on condition of anonymity. "There are more like him who remain on the job."

Armen Arutyunov is the man detained for helping two Chechen women get on board the Sibir Tu-154 to Sochi and the Volga-Aviaexpress Tu-134 to Volgograd on the evening of Aug. 24. Both planes exploded in midair at about 11 p.m. that night.

Investigators found residue of explosives in the debris of both crashes, and suspicion has fallen on the two Chechen women, who boarded the flights at the last minute.

The identities of the women have not been established. They identified themselves as Satsita Dzhebirkhanova and Amanat Nagayeva, but were not using their own passports.


Summing up preliminary results to the crash investigation, Prosecutor General Vladimir Ustinov said Wednesday that Arutyunov charged the women a total of 5,000 rubles for his services.

He stepped in after the women were detained by airport police upon their arrival from Makhachkala, Dagestan, Ustinov said, Interfax reported. A police officer released them without a check, he said.

The women were apparently unnerved by the police stop and wanted to get on outbound flights as quickly as possible.

The woman calling herself Nagayeva had missed a Sibir flight to Volgograd and was hysterical, according to Kommersant. Arutyunov swapped her ticket for one on the Volga-Aviaexpress Tu-134.

The woman calling herself Dzhebirkhanova was supposed to fly to Sochi on a larger Sibir Il-86 the next morning. But two minutes before check-in closed for Sibir Flight 1047 to Sochi, Arutyunov gave her ticket and 1,000 rubles ($34) to a Sibir official overseeing check-in and boarding, Ustinov said.

"In violation of all regulations," the Sibir employee wrote on the ticket, "Admit on Flight 1047," Ustinov said.

The Sibir official, identified by the media as Nikolai Korenkov, was indeed detained a week after the crashes, but he did not violate any rules, Sibir said.

"It is his job to help out passengers, and he has the right to rebook passengers if there are available seats," Sibir deputy director Mikhail Koshman said.

He said that after the tickets were changed, both women went through the required security and baggage checks and received airport security stamps on their boarding passes.

"The prosecutor general is just looking to shift the blame," Koshman said.

Domodedovo Airport director Sergei Rudakov said video surveillance footage shows the women were properly checked by security.

"If the explosive substances are like sugar or honey, they cannot be detected," he said.

Rudakov said the airport, which is widely considered the country's most modern, fell victim to "the human factor."

"Ticket scalpers and illegal cabbies exist, and we fight them with some success but haven't eliminated them," he said.

The airline official who requested anonymity said the private business of selling and swapping tickets is rampant in airports across the country.

A passenger can pay an airport staffer as little as 500 rubles to be whisked past security checks or sent through staff-only corridors, he said.

"A 'client' just needs to ask an airport employee, who will then take him by the hand and lead him to the airplane," he said.

"There are many loopholes, especially at night. The easiest way is to go through staff-only. The fee is 200 rubles," he said.

For 100 rubles, a bus driver can be hired to take a passenger directly to the plane.

"Off-duty buses usually wait in a designated place. Then you give another 200 rubles to the airport boarding agent, who signs off on the passenger manifest," he said.

Selling plane seats under the counter is profitable for police and airline crews, who each get a cut of the money paid for the seats. Airline crews pocket half or the full sum of the ticket price.

Passengers do not always get paper tickets, and flight attendants sometimes give up their seats when the aircraft is full, the airline official said. Sometimes these passengers get on board when they do not have enough money to pay the full fare.

No one checks or counts passengers once they arrive at their destination airport on domestic flights.

If a plane is forced to land at another airport due to bad weather, the airline crew pays for the passenger's onward flight out of its cut.

Sergei Masterov, deputy head of flight safety at the Federal Air Transportation Agency, said he was not familiar with this practice.

"We have not registered any such cases," he said. "But there is such a thing as the human factor, and anything is possible."

[Sergeant]

22:53:10,4. Intensive boom , Loud noise starts and continues to the end of the tape.
22:53:11. Long scream of pain
22:53:13,7. Pressure loss beeper turns on. Main electric power is lost
22:53:15,4. Shouting
22:53:23,1. Cursing
22:53:31,8. Scream of pain ( the same voice as at 22:53:11)
22:53:36. Shouting smth indistinctly
22:53:45,9. Long scream of pain
22:53:48,7. Hey ! [ cursing, shouting indistinctly]
22:53:52,7. Long scream of pain
22:53:56,6. Co-pilot: Where are we now?
22:53:57,7. Shouting smth indistinctly
22:53:58,9. Scream of horror - co-pilot sees a crew member injured.
22:53:59,9 - 22:54:11,6. 1kHz beep sound (6 times)
22:53:59,9. Aaah [ scream]
22:54:00. First pilot : Where is it?
22:54:06,7. First pilot : Where is it?
22:54:09,6. Aaah [cursing]
22:54:10,6. Good bye everybody [ voice of the wounded crew member]
22:54:11. Both pilots shoutin
22:54:13,1. Loud boom sound [Pressure drops suddenly, tail breaks off???]
22:54:14,5. ATCC on the radio: [tail number] 85556, what’s your altitude?
[traffic controller sees radar mark of 85556 fading out]
22:54:19,2. ATCC: What happened?
22:54:21,1. Loss of cabin pressure!
22:54:22,8. Hull is breached!
22:54:25. Shouting, screaming
22:54:28,4. First pilot: Push it ![the yoke]
22:54:31,7. Co-pilot: Roger push [struggling]
22:54:32,5. ATCC: 85556, your altitude?
22:54:38,3. First pilot: Eight [ thousand meters?]
22:54:43. [a crew member] Where are we [flying now]?
22:54:45,2. First pilot: Wait!
22:54:46,1. Co-pilot: This is it ! It’s over
22:54:48,4. First pilot: 81
22:54:49,5. Co-pilot: roger
22:54:56,8. [a crew member] Oh Lord!
22:55:01,6. First pilot: No, no ! It is not here! [ cursing]
22:55:07,5. First pilot: Pull up!
22:55:08,8. Co-pilot: Pull up?
22:55:09,8. First pilot: Yes pull up!
22:55:10,3. First pilot: Do it!
22:55:12,5. Are you here?
22:55:14,8. Move back! Walk away!
22:55:16,7. Where are we going to crash?
22:55:19. Aaah!
22:55:20,3. First pilot: Pull up!
22:55:23,1. Scream
22:55:23,7. End of tape, impact

First pilot : Guryev Mikhail , 1956
Ex- military pilot (till 2004)
5732 hours total , of those 3505 hours as a TU154 first pilot
Co-pilot : Andrushenko Yuri , 1970
3800 hours total, of those 3320 hours as a TU154 co-pilot

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I do wish the last moments could be preserved instead of being splashed all over the world. Thank you Sergeant.

[pigboat]

All that will brought to you in living colour on the eleven o'clock news when video cameras are allowed in the cockpit. :mad: