Shoreham school closed down

[Kirstey]

Sad to say another flying school bites the dust. Was down at Shoreham today and noticed Ace Aviation had it's doors padlocked, locks changed and an eviction order in the window.

Hope no studes lost their hard earned.

[A and C]

What aircraft did they fly and did they own them ?

[IO540]

Over the last few years, Shoreham has had between 6 and 8 fixed-wing schools. Several have closed down in the last 2-3 years. It is impossible to make money when there are enough students (willing to sit in a 30 year old can) for approximately 1 school.

It's a great airfield, with excellent ATC, but nobody there has yet done the obvious thing: tap the conspicuously wealthy population in their 20s 30s and 40s in that part of the country, and set up something operating modern sexy planes with the sort of decent navigation kit which present day punters expect (not Cessnas or Pipers), covering the whole route from a PPL to a PPL/IR, and teaching people to actually fly somewhere interesting....

[Sensible]

A and C here is Ace Aviation website and info about the aircraft;
http://www.aceaviation.info/info.php?i=57

Here is the G-info site; http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp

As nearly always is the case, the aircraft wern't owned by the school and therefore if anybody is owed money, they have no claim on the aircraft.

Sad but true:ugh:

[KCDW]

Hmmm... Not sure I buy your argument IO540. Not many clubs (if any) have a fleet of sexy planes, nor a customer base expecting that. Yet plenty of outfits seem to be able to survive.

I wonder if there is another reason for Shoreham's high casualty rate.

[Kirstey]

and they all go bust in the same premisis! lol

The aircraft are impounded, the property is impounded... pity the poor goldfish that's impouded lol

[IO540]

KCDW

Most likely the large number of schools all operating the same sort of planes and attracting mostly customers who don't have much money. I have known some instructors at Shoreham and they were paid £10/day retainer plus £20/hr for any flying. Some were paid zero retainer. This is one of the ways a school can "survive" for some years.

Shoreham would be a really great location for a well managed well funded operation but with all the competition it would never make money. It would have to go after an entirely different client base. According to the local press, Transair were going to set up a Cessna Pilot Centre (which is what ACE appeared to be) but I haven't heard any more about that, which doesn't suprise me as at the time it would have brought the total of fixed wing schools to nine, and Transair is definitely a well run business. The average punter can't tell the difference between a new Cessna at £150k and a 30 year old one.

The company originally trading as ACE Aviation was Stanair Ltd - they used a "Stanair" callsign if I recall correctly.

[83 3708]

Talking of schools closing down I have heard rumours about Cabair closing their Redhill operation very soon. The Cessnas will be taken onto the Biggin Hill fleet.

Anyone confirm or deny?

Regards

[Juliet Papa]

IO 540 et al,

Stanair went under after the debacle with a certain CFI - Ace now is (was) under new management and going well. I'm sure you'll get the story of what's gone on soon enough, but lets just say don't jump to the usual conclusions.

AFAIK no students have lost money on deposit, as this wasn't the way the new management wanted to operate - to their credit. I stand to be corrected though.

Cheers,

JP

[Kirstey]

Basically at least £10,000 was owed on aircraft bills. No idea on what was owed on the premisis, but when Stanair ltd was liquidated the bill was £36,000. I believe selling the one aircraft they did own paid that off, but clearly more money is owing on the premisis.

One or two people did have money on account. The whole thing was badly, if not maliciously, run (although some would say it was!) With all of this happening the owner and the owners mum went of to australia on a flying holiday for 3 weeks at a cost of several grand each. A not particularly bright 17yo was left in charge of the operation assisted by 2 more (much brighter teenagers). Less than a week on their return this happened. When it did happen the owner was no where to be seen. She left a 16yo to deal with the airport and another 16yo to rescue student records and deal with customers.

Ace has never been going well since the liquidation of Stanair. There was never enough revenue from 2 aircraft to cover 3,100 a month rent let alone all the aiport bills on top of that.

[2604]

JP

Surely it couldn't have been going that well with all those overheads, instructors leaving to other flying schools and aircraft owners and financial backer pulling out.

Shame though

[Echo Zulu Yankee]

All,

As I was at EGKA yesterday somebody was paying to release one of the Ace Cessna's and it took off about half an hour later I beleive, I heard him being questioned over the R/T before it was confirmed and approved.

Just what I heard and saw, I have no more background than that.

EzY

[Zlin526]

It happens and will continue to happen. The moral is, and always has been, NEVER pay up front for training at a UK flying School/Club. If the organisation is reputable, they will not ask you to!!

[niknak]

A great shame, and as usual, it will be those who have most to lose who lose most.

If the CAA were to immediately do one thing, and one thing only to improve the shoddy image of flying schools going under, owing £1000s, and the owners getting off scott free, it would be to enforce an ABTA type bonding system which would guarantee a refund of monies owed.
There's no doubt that it would be very expensive for flying club operators to initially come up with the lump sum, but this would be part of the business plan, and if they couldn't afford that, they don't operate.

It would sort the wheat from the chaff, and it would be simple, but very very effective.

[kaflyer]

Many a school have gone bust at shoreham inc premi air, premi air engineering, southern air countless times, is it not best to keep quiet until you know the facts!

[IO540]

The full gory details of why these schools have ceased trading, often in "dramatic" circumstances, will never come out in a public forum. Only the people very close to the finances and day to day running (these two things are often not at all connected!) might know, and they certainly won't post it on pprune.

There are always rumours going round, especially at an airfield where there are far too many schools for the number of customers, some better substantiated than others, but only a fool would post them publicly because, rest assured, they would be exceedingly libellious if they turned out to be even slightly off the mark.

And if they aren't off the mark, it will be pretty obvious who they came from - because so few people know what really happened. I've heard a few things straight from the horse's mouth so to speak and no way can this ever come out.

It is a real shame that GA commercial operations attract so many people of a certain type.

[Big Hilly]

have heard rumours about Cabair closing their Redhill operation very soon Have heard the very same rumour myself. Probably something to do with the fact that all of Cabair's schools appear to have now been issued with 0845 numbers (or some such other damn silly “lo-call” number) - the 'kiss of death' for any business - as anyone with an ounce of intelligence dialling an 0845 number will nowadays immediately assume that you’ll shortly be talking to a call centre in some far-flung corner of the earth, be faced with an endless possibility of inane options ("Press 9 to talk to the Samaritans prior to committing suicide") and will ‘give up the ghost’ before even bothering to dial. . . . .

Oh dear, I think I'm getting old. . . . :D ;) :D ;)

BH

[flyout]

With all of this happening the owner and the owners mum went of to australia on a flying holiday for 3 weeks at a cost of several grand each.

Is this not an act of commercial suicide, if your business was strruggling, then surely the last thing you do is have a jolly to Oz.

Would certainly send my brain into, "Hang on a minute mode" :confused: if I worked or flew there.

I'm sure it was a nice club, but....Oz... oh please!

[EGKA]

Well, as you all say Sad that another club has closed down, but on the plus side more work for the remaining schools !! and many of the students and instructors have found new homes.

There are a few unhappy people around that appear to have lost money on account but then haven't we all at some point been caught out.

But I feel sorry for the goldfish, he sitting there in a tank not getting fed, assume the airport manager has assumed responsibility for him !!!

Think the owner and mum were ill advised to take over the flying school premises, looked good but cost too much each month with only 3 aircraft to bring in the pennies and never recovered from the "stanair" days.

Would be interesting to see who paid for the Oz holiday, assume a "fact finding" trip.

[takeabreak]

First of all - the owner was in hospoital having surgery at the time that this all happened, hence not being there to deal with anything. From speaking to some of her staff she is still very ill and has already undergone major surgery - is it very British to kick a person when they are already down especially when no one who has posted thus far seems to know much in the way of facts, to have lost money with this company or have suffered any grievance by them.

Secondly - I went into the club over a year ago and had a chat with her about her holiday to Oz which was being paid for by her mum. I think you will find you are bordering on slander to suggest that it was paid out of company funds without any evidence.

Thirdly - the compan y is not in liquidiation and from visitin companies house and making a few phone calls it does not appear that it has any plans to go into liquidation. This means that the business must have been trading solvently and was therefore not struggling at the time of the holiday - I never knew I lived in a country where hard working people taking a holiday was such a crime!

I think that rather than look at the company itself you should direct your attention to why so many companies at Shoreham do not survive. Could it be that there is a seemingly permanent crowd of old women who wander round the flying clubs showing no loyalty to any one who persist in bitching and slagging off individaul after individual. Could it also be the ridiculously high rent rates and fees inflicted on everyone who dares enter the perimeter? If you look at the percentages, EGKA loses more flying clubs per year than practically any other airfield in england - time for the council to ask some questions.

Lastly, from speaking to some of the staff it seems that the airport itself may have acted quite unreasonabley in this case which was not helped by the unavoidablwe absence of the owner and the immediate bitching of some individuals around the field, all of which made it pointless to reopen the premises.

I suggest everyone sits back and looks at this for what it truly is. The business was a good one and I for one loved flying there. This is another sad day for Shoreham and it would do everyone better to focus on happier events instead of bitching on unfounded basis.

[formationfoto]

Lets face it. Flying is too expensive in the U.K. There is little real need for us to have private aircraft to go long distances (as is often the case in the U.S). There are lots of exciting things to do with our time and money. We mostly invite someone into a run down portacabin with smelly toilets, ignore them, throw them into an old fashioned aircraft, give them average tuition, force them to wait around for their next lesson, and... and... and....

Until we can sort out this situation all flying schools are in the process of going bust it is just a matter of who can hold out longer than the club next door.

Perhaps a bit extreme but the description above is not too far from the truth.

Where does the blame lie, and more importantly how can it be changed?

Some outfits understand this (UH to name but one) and try and move the game on a bit but at ab initio level getting the quality of experience up whilst not pricing it out of reach of the majority is always going to be difficult.

So maybe:

Let the price rise, target the high income, high expectation, individuals with a MUCH better experience. Get the marketing, the environment, the service levels, right.

At the lower end of the market make it even cheaper, NPPL, self help, unlicenced airfields, experienced PPLS instructing (not guys who really dont want to be there).

Just a thought!

[IO540]

Let the price rise, target the high income, high expectation, individuals with a MUCH better experience. Get the marketing, the environment, the service levels, right.

Sadly, I can't think of any other solution either.

Except it isn't necessary to let prices rise. What is needed is a well run business, properly funded, and marketing its product to the customers you correctly describe. Nobody in the UK has yet done this - for a start it could be done only with modern composite planes and integrating GPS into navigation from early on.

BTW the owner (the person who put the money up) of ACE was a male. But he wasn't involved on a day to day basis.

[Monocock]

Can I make an absurd suggestion as to why a coastal airfield struggles to find enough punters to keep the flying schools going........

........if you consider the radius that they have to draw people in from, it is half that of a club situated in a non-coastal location.

Is this a fair argument?

[ACW 335]

Very fair...and shoreham is a bit out in the sticks...except if you count Shoreham town which isn't realy massive or anywhere near the airport!

I think a large number of people in that area fly from Goodwood; which IMHO is a better GA airfield than Shoreham

[IO540]

Monocock/acw

Definitely this isn't the problem. There is huge wealth in Sussex, more than just about anywhere except London. Just over the airfield is a private estate with few houses below £1M. But almost nobody with more than 2p is being attracted into Shoreham.

No, it would be easy to draw in the "BMW Z4 owner" crowd which is presently piling into £600/year gyms just for a diversion. It would take a polished operation to do it, and that's never been done, especially not at Shoreham where there are and always have been far too many schools for anyone to do more than just hang in there.

And they all offer the same product. The nearest anybody got to doing anything other than the standard decrepit 1960s/70s metal was ACE, who got two brand new planes, but what did they get......... Cessnas!! A complete waste of £140k a piece, because this just buys you the same WW2 machine whcih doesn't attract a different sort of customer.

THAT is the real problem - the airport's policy of permitting too many schools to set up. At any normal GA location, one needs just three schools: fixed wing, aeros, rotary. Plus perhaps a strictly commercial one operating twins. Anything more is just going to make sure everybody gets driven into the ground.

The other factors, e.g. the types of individuals and their behaviour which are more directly responsible for some of the higher profile failures, is only the straw which breaks the camels' back.

[Monocock]

IO540

I take your point and agree wholeheartedly.

When you said

but what did they get......... Cessnas!! A complete waste of £140k a piece

do you really think these are unsuitable for training? I would disagree and say that 2 new 172's would be perfect for the job in terms of handling, running costs and strength.

What would you suggest a new school would buy? Just interested.

[ACW 335]

IO540...being a sussex resident i am aware :p However; as a GA airfield Shoreham isn't really as attractive...i mean; sitting at the terminal building having a coffee on the tarmac or sitting on the benches at Goodwood having a bacon sarnie watching all the action? To me it hasn't really got the same appeal.
Goodwood has this 'thing' (atmosphere? sorry cant think of the word!) which shoreham just doesnt have.
I have to say i agree with the too many flying schools comment!

Shoreham is sort of a GA airfield trying to be commerical i guess?

There have been a couple of Cabair guys down at goodwood recently in jacket and tie (on more than one occasion)...anyone know anything?

[IO540]

Monocock

Without a doubt a C172 is fine for PPL training. For some strange reason nobody has yet come up with a plane which is as robust and widespread (although obviously the latter bit is a circular argument!)

A completely separate matter is what sort of plane is needed to draw in discerning clients (or whatever you want to call them). It is not a Cessna. Something sexy, like a modern composite e.g. a DA40, would do it. But a DA40 isn't as solid as a C172. So it's a catch-22 for a new school: get the old proven iron (and get the same customers who for the most part can' t afford to fly, and who are quite happy with the decrepit state of GA) or get something new (and assuming slick marketing get some wealthier customers but also get some teething troubles, especially if you go for the diesel version).

No easy solution.

Ultimately one is up against the PPL syllabus which is going to make any "modern" punter fall over laughing. The slide rule... the customer probably drove up in a car with GPS in it!

I do see both sides of the argument so let's not go into that again, but the whole PPL training setup ensures that very little can be done to improve matters.

[KCDW]

Hi IO540,

I think we will have to agree to differ on the subject of the target customer base. I really don't think that this discerning, moneyed, new to GA customer exists in sufficient numbers. Most of us arrive, starry eyed, just wanting to fly. And with no greater expectations than to fly that curious, old fashioned, high wing thing called a Cessna 152 :).

Another way of putting it is, if our training fleet were to miraculously change overnight into new a/c such as DA40s, all running at current costs, I really don't think the customer base would expand that much.

Now on the other hand... if the fleet were to miraculously change into diesel powered C172s and PA28s, costing £50 ph to rent, and £65 ph to learn on. Different ball game. Punters would come flooding in. Those are the sort of costs you get in the States with their low fuel charges. The club I belonged to was less of a club and more like an aviation version of the BSM. Wannabees were pouring in though the door - even after 9/11.

I think the reasons for the problems at Shoreham are simple. GA in the UK is way too expensive, and the customer base can't justify large numbers of flying schools, particularly if co-located on one airfield.

Cheers.

KC

[MikeJeff]

Takeabreak,

To take some of your points from someone who had inside information on both sides of the fence...

I agree that EGKA has a large number of schools go bust. However, premier going bust was a result of the owner nicking everyone's money a going to Spain, harldy the fault of the airport is it? Stanair (Ace's first trading name) went under becasue the CFI spent lot's of cash on "looking after" his underage students. Flying Matters (new ACE), was closed (may not be bust yet, but they can't run a flying school from home can they!) becasue it should never have been opened in the first place! needless to say they had 3 aircraft and only one full time instructor who left plus a few part time instructors, plus a LOT of instructors who came and left (how bad must u be if instructors leave becasue of working conditions!).

Another issue you raised was the unreasonableness of the airport management. When Stanair was closed the debt to the airport was at least £36,000. Now I believe one of the nice cessnas was sold to pay some of this debt I don't know the specifics. I don't know what was owed to the airport in terms of rent this time (I got barred from the school for speaking my mind by then!) but I know two aircraft has a combined debt to the airport of just under £10k. The owners of the Cessna have had to pay a considerable sum to get these aircraft released. After giving them such a stay of execution this time, why should they be given another stay this time around?

As for who paid for the holiday, well takeabreak, the only person to suggest that the holiday was paid for by the company was you! Whoever paid for the holiday, ths issues are 1) money could've been better spent to keep the business going and 2) the business was clearly knackered, maybe going off on a jolly to oz was a bit of a silly thing to do. They were closed down less than a week after the return and they must have been given enough notice of their eviction! Whether or not miss x is ill or not she would've been given more than enough time to sort things out. It's not a case of 10 minutes notice, this will have been ongoing for months!

I don't know which members of staff you have been speaking to but none that I know, which includes all the ops staff and 2 of the 3 instructors has heard from anyone!! lots are owed money. I personally believe that the owner is fine and hidden away somewhere, hopefully never to be seen again.

So Takeabreak, everything you say is utter rubbish (BRL et al, PM me if you want any assurance about anything said I can provide contacts with several people at EGKA who will support the direct things I've said). The business was run awfully, I don't believe malicously, just badly. The owner, lived in a Walter Mitty world and believed she was untouchable. The other owner (the original owners mum!) was so biased and wore such big blinkers that she may as well have not been there - again leaving an 84 year old husband in the early stages of dementia to go on holiday to oz for several weeks is also questionable!

Now excuse me for the diatribe, someone here may possibly thing that I have a personal gripe here! I certainly do, no need to go into detail here but the outcome of this included me being slagged off and accused of a number of things that I didn't do. Fortunatly, the general population of the airport didn't believe a word of it and after everything that has happened I feel vindicated! One example was one of the young guys on the ops desk (only 16 and sorted so much of the mess out!) was scared to go to one of the restaurants becasue he had been convinced that I was going to kick the living sh1t out of him. Fortunatly we're buddies again you'll all be glad to know!

So yes, I have issues here and I personally am delighted with the outcome! I just hope the lying miss x informs the CAA of her medical issues...

[Big Hilly]

Blimey! Under-age sex allegations, unrequited love and a genuine punch-up of our very own here on Private Flying! It’s better than Eastenders.

But the real cliff-hanger is this:

What’s become of the Goldfish?

BH

[2Donkeys]

Nothing of this sort ever happens at Cranfield :(

All our complaints relate to over-large circuits and the lack of a social scene.

I must visit Shoreham more often.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, it is a shame that they seem to be being fought in this pseudo-anonymous forum.

2D

[S-Works]

nah, I am really enjoying this! It way to quiet on our little farm strip.

More, more gimme more. How about some death threats or a good old fashioned pistols at dawn just to keep thing moving along!

Not had this much fun reading since "the" Sywell thread!

:}

[jonah g]

Bob (the goldfish...let us please use his name and not attach labels like THE GOLDFISH)

Bob is not without scandal:
Bob has been suspended from further activities due to an unfortunate incident on an internet chatroom, where he was caught licking his finger and doing rude things...or was THAT Eastenders..I am sooo confused.

Who IS Takeabreak..is it Christine or is it Richard?
Is Bob a pervy?
Has Mike got friends?

Find out soon....







:ok:

[Maxflyer]

Bose-X what about an air duel? Open cockpit two seaters and passengers armed with ink filled balloons. Held in the overhead at Shoreham on a busy Saturday morning. Could charge spectators and make a packet.

I'm in...

[jonah g]

Bose-X what about an air duel?

Nah be waiting at the hold for 15 mins


bose-x

What's the "Sywel thread" any good?

[BRL]

Right, breakfast sorted (on nights 'till wed, just got up) and read all this. I think Mike and Takeabreak have made their points and should, if they want to continue this do so via PM, not, on this forum as pointed out by many others, and indeed as takeabreak pointed out.

There will be some home truths about what has been written so there will always be the inevitable round-and-round we go like what we have seen above.

I really don't want to lock this thread, but I will if there are any more posts that just go around and around as I believe, things like this should not be displayed in a public forum.

I am off to work soon and I hope to return to this thread in the morning without any more input like what we have seen over the last day or so.

[MikeJeff]

sorry BRL! will button it now! would PM if I could.

[jonah g]

Mike got told off.

Hi Mike:D

[MikeJeff]

hi Jonah!

Are you back in the air yet? how's it all going? So is Bob OK?

[surely not]

Best question was 'has Mike got friends?'














yea he has, just one or two !!:D

[kaflyer]

Mike do you work? I have to ask as you seem to spend most of your time posting replies on the web and generally causing s**t. If you would like some friends I recommend going to a play school so that those around you will have the same mentality as you.

From what i have heard and read you are a verry sad individual with not many friends, lets face you say things such as: I can provide contacts with several people at EGKA, where are they???

Speak soon if you are not too busy with all of your so-called friends.

[S-Works]

kaflyer, Miooooooow!!!

I am just waiting for BRL's big padlock here!

Come on children let play nicely together!! If not I am going to tell my mum and she is goingt come around and "do you "with her umbrella.

:p :p

[MikeJeff]

erm, where did all takeabreaks slighty aggressive comments go? and I believe KAFLYER's aggressive response to me was posted within a few minutes of takeabreaks posts being removed. One could almost suggest that the posts were deleted, the user logged out and then logged in again as someone else?

or am i being paranoid!

I am paranoid, I think my posts were removed too!

[S-Works]

yeah you are probably being paranoid. but moe importantly where is the goldfish??????

[MikeJeff]

Last I heard it was impounded and behind the chained door. However, the property is being advertised again, so maybe the council have allowed the airport in with some food and clean water. Can't be sure though!

[jonah g]

Jonahs' back




Are you back in the air yet? how's it all going? So is Bob OK?

Flying tomorrow weather permitting..working towards QXC.
Bob is fine and back with his owner so I am led to believe, but may need counselling.

Has all the bitching stopped now..cos I woz getting bored.

KAFlyer don't like you..say sorry to him and it will all be made better.:rolleyes:

As much as I love all of the Big Mans\' creatures..this thread is not turning into one of those "Pink Headset" moments is it?
I don\'t think I can keep the conversation on Goldfish going for too long....Now sheep...I can talk about sheep!!




How is the Pinkster..anybody heard from her?

[MikeJeff]

I would say sorry - (s)he won't accept PMs though.

I think all of the students are settled in at various schools throughout the airport. lot's of them text & email me so maybe I'm not all that unpopular after all!

anyway Jonah I know you're buddies with the old management team there. But if you can stand the ignomy of being sat at the table with the rottenist cad on the airport, I'll shout you a coffee (or a beer post flying) if you're about of a weekend!

[jonah g]

As long as you don't spit in the coffee, or talk about poxy goldfish;)

[MikeJeff]

I'm happy that Bob is in good form! If they got a sheep there then you'd be interested wouldn't you! ;)

[jonah g]

:ok: :ok: :ok: :suspect: :suspect:

[Big Hilly]

Right, that's it! I'm coming into Shoreham on Saturday towing a "Free the Goldfish" Banner. . . . .

Oh dear, I think it's time for bed. . . .

BH

[jonah g]

goodnight BH..sleep well.

Have you noticed how my posts have crept into double figures over the past week..good eh!

[surely not]

So how come I've never been offered a beer then Mike?? Perhaps I should ask in German?

Jonah G just don't leave your shoes lying around near Mike :D

[MikeJeff]

Surely not, I've bought you many a beer in the past! it's just these new pants i have, pockets are deeper than my arms I'm afraid!!

We still have a plane ride to sort out as well!

[jonah g]

Jonah G just don't leave your shoes lying around near Mike

explain..the clean version.

[surely not]

Jonah G, 'tis probably best if Mike explains to you in the confines of the bar at Shoreham :D

Mike, you're right we do have a plane ride to sort out. Well as I don't do much at the moment you decide which day is best.

(ooohhhh, just remembered I've an interview on Thursday, so not on Thursday!)

I'm sure I saw Goldfish and chips on the menu. It was cheap as well.....


only a bob :)

[KCDW]

It amazes me the extent to which this thread has become trivialised.

[High Wing Drifter]

KCDW,

But it is the way of things in internet land. First of all somebody posts something. Then somebody contradicts it. Then there is a blazing row. Then finally, comes the light hearted banter on page 2 (or possibly 3). An oft repeated pattern and to be expected.

:uhoh:

[MikeJeff]

KCDW,

Your comment is a fair one, people seem to be scared to debate the rights or wrongs of my original posting. I gave a factual account and some biased opinion. The rest is up to you now. And to be fari Bob has as much of a right to a future as you or I

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Hi,

Im wondering if im not the only one who has recieved this, but I recieved a letter today saying that i owe £140 to Ace Aviation. I think that is a bit of a mick take as im actually owed £500.

Any other former customers recieved a similar letter?

[surely not]

GJP, have you lodged a letter stating that you are owed £500? If you haven't put it in quickly so that the receivers have hard proof of your situation.

[jonah g]

GJP

So that's only £360 they owe you now.(Sorry not a laughing matter I know)

Not received a letter as yet, I may owe a touch and go tho'.

:rolleyes:

But considering I payed for some ground school and exams up front as part of a package, and have not received my "product" I am assuming the T & G will be taken off that!(Assuming they are aware that this service is owed to me) You win some you loose a lot.

:* :*

But that's the way the cookie crumbies I am afraid, lesson learnt for me..never ever leave your wing man(sorry just watched top gun)..never will I pay upfront for any thing else in GA training.

Congrats on your acheivement last week, by the way GJP.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

lol, cheers jonah!

im sure the directors will find another way to screw the other £360 out of me!

[MikeJeff]

and another lesson Jonah,

Don't let it put you off! lot's of good guys run flying schools as well!