Private v Public Transport cat

[stiknruda]

I have been tempted away from the PFA permit system for something on a CofA. The deal is not complete yet but I really don't think that there is much to prevent it happening.

Can someone, better versed in these matters, explain to me the differences between Private cat and Public Transport cat certificates ofairworthiness - the restrictions of each and the differences in maintenance frequency and schedules?

As a permit owner/builder - I am quite used to taking u/s "components" out and replacing them with bits from Halfords, B&Q, etc.

Can somebody explain the release note system to me and explain who can issue release notes, too?

Do annuals and star-annuals need to be done at an M3 facility or can an appropriately qualified engineer come to my hangar and sign off my work?

Sorry for so many noddy questions but it is just dawning on me that I know bugg*r all about non-permit rules.

I do know that I can zoom over built up areas - but why you'd want to do that in a single, I don't know:confused:


Stik

[Barcli]

Stik,
you helped me an awfull lot with the Permit system when we spoke about the Pitts , back along ... it just so happens that am going the other way from c of a to permit and well looking forward to it.
Your star annual / annual ( I believe it is a star annual when combined with the 3 yr C of A) can only be done at an M3 approved base and signed off by appropriate engineer. - depends on how well you know him as to if he'll sign off your work ,, in my experience not - as once you have passed your a/c to these people on their premises they do not encourage you even being there until you arrive with cheque book at the end. - desperately inflexible compared with the permit system ( as i understand the permit system) - add to all this 120 day checks irrespective of the hours flown ( if public trans cat) and it all gets very expensive indeed. I ask why go away from the PFA/permit system ? unless the a/c isnt allowed on a permit - like a 2B perhaps ?
good luck

[stiknruda]

2A, Barcli; not permit-able:(

Stik

[Jodelman]

One of the residents at our airstrip has a Piper PA22 on a private C of A and for the annuals does all the work himself and has found a licenced engineer who is happy to come to the airstrip and sign off his work.

The Star annual is a little different in that the aircraft has to be at the M3 workshop but again found someone willing to let him do all the work himself.

I know little about these matters but it seems if you know the right people, anything is possible.

[Barcli]

am sure 2A is on the list of approved types ? yep definately is - its at ://www.pfa.org.uk/aircraft_technical/accepted_aircraft/aircrafttypelist.pdf

just the 2B that isnt because of the HP limit
regards

[A and C]

On a private C of A the owner can do the 50 hour check and also some other maintenance items ( the list runs to 17 items ) the 150 hour checks and Annuals have to be done by a licenced engineer , the C of A renewal has to be covered by an M3 aproved company.

I have very mixed feelings about Barcli's comments on the subject of owner maintenance , I have no problem with the concept of the owner "helping out" but not all owners have even the basic technical skill's to remove panels without damaging the aircraft so I can see the reluctance for companys to let owners work on there own aircraft.

As with all these things it is usualy the people with the least skill who are the most critical of engineers and who can't understand the limits of there own ability's . This usualy results in a "free and frank" exchange of veiws between the partys and another unjustified engineer slagging thread on this forum !.

The owners who know there limitations are a joy to work with and give me no problems , the others can just stay out of my way as the hassel dealing with these idiots is not worth my time.

[Barcli]

A and C,
never had any " frank" views with any engineers in my life - am an engineer myself, was just expressing an opinion and a warning to many that arent engineers !!

[A and C]

That was quick !

By the way the 120 check was writen out of LAMS back in 1999 and replaced by a 6 month check for both private and public transport C of A aircraft.

[Barcli]

Thanks for that - bit out of date as have been PFA/permits since then !!

[javelin]

A & C

Having owned nearly 10 aeroplanes now, my only horror stories have eminated from M3 establishments. Half of my aeroplanes have been permit, the others C of A. The permit ones have generally been good well maintained aeroplanes. Sadly, the others have revealed gash workmanship - PK's installed where machine screws should be, fabric repair by gaffer tape - signed off by an engineer, brakes ruined because they had been filled with car fluid etc etc. To be fair to all concerned, most of the C of A aeroplanes needed some TLC when I bought them. However one of them was described as immaculate - no, still held surprises when I got into it !

I believe that the best compromise is to hook up with an engineer who knows and understands the type you operate, hopefully find an experienced aeroplane mechanic - i.e. not licenced, therefore willing to work for cash with you, and build your own experience.

Thus you gain skills, you work with the engineer, your ass is strapped to it so your workmanship should reflect that and everyone gains.

I have been fortunate to have had a good relationship with a good and fair engineer who I have learned from. He signs off permit and C of A aeroplanes.

To Stik, I wouldn't worry about a C of A aeroplane. Yes the release note stuff is a pain, Public v Private - all depend if you want to hire and reward - don't forget, you can do displays without it being hire and reward, if you take passengers and charge them, it is.

[stiknruda]

Guys,

Thanks for some v useful feedback ,


Anyone able to point me to the CofA definitives?


Barcli - the S2A is "kind of on" that list, a factory supplied aeroplane IS NOT covered. Trust me - I'm a tractor driver!

Stik - blessed harvest!

[Barcli]

Stik,
thanks for that - makes sense really seeing as not kit built PFA wouldnt want to know - when i get one , will have to make sure twas kit built !!

[formationfoto]

Stik

Bob B can probably give you the low down but you will need M3 signatory which includes premises. M3 approval is not impossible to get for Stik farm barn and as Bob has moved out of EGSJ you might find that for a small sum of money he might move his approval to your premises.

This wouldnt be a certain machine that you and i have flown in in the past and has recently had a bad time?.

Unless you need to do airwork or hire out you want private C of A not public.

Parts need to be approved and lots more record keeping than the regime you are used to. Each item has to be released for use.