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GearDown&Locked
20th Aug 2004, 12:28
From RTP television site (translated)

Sudden manouver on a TAP plane causes 25 injured

25 people were injured when a TAP plane was forced to make a sudden manouver to avoid a collision before landing at Ilha Terceira (TER), Azores, said an airline source.

The Airbus A-310 was travelling from Lisbon (LIS) to Terceira (TER) and the accident ocurred at 10:30 , Lisbon time, said the same source.

25 were injured (23 pax and 2 crew) and were sent to the local hospitals. The same source informed that the some of the injured suffered head (skull?!) trauma but nobody was inconscient.

TAP official source said to LUSA news agency that the Captain received an indication that they were on a collision course with another plane and "as the rules say" was forced to divert from its course. "To do so, he had to lower the plane's altittude, and for the urgency of the situation, there was no time to warn the passengers, whom without seatbelts, hit the top of the deck" they explained.

The plane flying from Lisbon to Terceira, left Lisbon at 08:20.

The story (in portuguese) is here RTP Television (http://www.rtp.pt/index.php?article=122312&visual=5)

(please forgive the errors :O )

Carl Rawson
20th Aug 2004, 14:51
Hope no one was seriously injured.
It obviously loses something in translation and so I humbly accept corrections but you write "before landing". I assume therefore that this was not in the cruise and therefore the initial approach checks should have been made. Given that S.O.P.'s normally state that seatbelts signs should be on I'm wondering why so many were not strapped down. Surely by this stage only C.Crew should be on their feet?

GearDown&Locked
20th Aug 2004, 14:55
Just to add some new info, from this site (http://sic.sapo.pt/index.php?article=5918&visual=3&area_id=1) (in portuguese).

The other aircraft involved in this incident was a beechcraft turboprop operated by OMNI, a small airline company, flying from Terceira(TER) to Lisbon(LIS), with only the 2 pilots onboard. OMNI told the reporters that this plane was just following its previously approved flightplan.

Carl Rawson , the info I have is that the plane was about 10 mins from the airport, and probably on approach.

My guess is that they were still high enough for the seatbelt signs to be off.

The latest reports say that 14 people suffered from neck and head injuries, some of them very serious.

hapzim
20th Aug 2004, 15:17
If you are in your seat always keep your seatbelt loosely fastened. Anything is possible.:ok:

AIRWAY
21st Aug 2004, 10:49
Do passengers ever listen? I don't think so... Maybe it should be mandatory to keep the seat belts on? Is that possible?

The African Dude
21st Aug 2004, 11:06
Hi,

A/c occupants are inside a machine moving at hundreds of mph and the capability for almost any type of movement! It should be common sense to stay (at least a bit) buckled up!! :{

Remember reading a thread a while back about pasengers who unbuckle to get stuff from overhead bins, before the sign goes out - what if additional manouvering is neccessary at the gate? They all fall over like dominoes and then sue the airline for their own stupidity.

Ok ok enough rant! But I hope the sb sign was switched on!

Andy

alexban
21st Aug 2004, 11:35
10 ' from landing and seatbelts sign off?
We position seatbelts sign to ON at TD ,which usually is at no less than 20' to land.I think it's the safest way to do.

trainer too 2
21st Aug 2004, 12:55
It is completly in line why I avoid flying with TAP. On one flight alone there was a disabled person in the emergency exit row, during turbulence the sign was switched on but cabin crew REFUSED passage to pax from the lav's on the way back to their seats(and allowed people to go the lav's....) During the following heavy turbulence as part of the macho factor they continued serving hot drinks and food, they clearly have never been in clear air turbulence... At this point cockpit had done the right thing it was only totally ingnored in the back.

Then after starting the sightseeing approach to LIS the sign was only switched on when we were line up..... CC ran through the cabin as standing in the galley was more important than checking seatbelts and taking a seat themselves... extremely unprofessional and I changed my return flight to LH after this...

This is not a reflection on this particular incident but it helped color my conceptions about TAP... as refered to by my Portugeese collegues as Take Another Plane :{

AIRWAY
21st Aug 2004, 13:29
TT2

I wonder why i have a different opinon of TAP than your's ( and i had problems with TAP before, but im not avoiding them ), surely that doesnt happen only in TAP? So what... Will you stop flying with other airlines too? No airline is perfect, i think you and any other aviation professional knows that.

Let me see, following your theory what airlines i wouldnt be flying either because of unprofessionalism or problems that happened to me:

BA
Ryanair
Iberia
Thomas Cook

It's going to get to a point that i will have no airline to fly with if something unprofessional happens everytime i fly as a passenger. :rolleyes:

Old King Coal
21st Aug 2004, 13:40
All aside from which.... if a TCAS RA ( one assumes that both aircraft involved where equipped with and using TCAS ?! ) is complied with in the correct manner it is actually a very gentle manouver, one which shoud barely be noticed by the passengers - wherein a Chuck Yeager styled max climb / max dive it is not ! .... of course if one chooses to diregard the TA, the RA, and subsequently has to manouver out of the way, that is a different matter.

AIRWAY
21st Aug 2004, 13:44
Hi Old King,

I think the B200 from omni is TCAD equiped.

alexban
21st Aug 2004, 16:15
airway: no matter what the B200 was equiped with,the response to a RA is an immediate SMOOTH maneuvre,which won't be necessary felt by the pax.The system is designed so you'll have enaugh time to do such a maneuvre.High G should be avoided.
Of course,you can be scared sometime by a sudden 'climb,climb' ,but this is not a reason for aerobatics.As I said the system is calculated for smooth maneuvre,this is also taught in the QRH and FCTM.

AIRWAY
21st Aug 2004, 18:09
Alexban,

If im not mistaken a TCAD wont give you RA's It simply says where traffic is, as for TCAS it will give you RA's commands... Now could someone confirm this? My knowledge of this 2 systems is limited so i would be greatful if someone could shed some light regarding TCAD's.

AVIACO, responding to your question regarding the fleet replacement, it is schedule to be the A330 to replace their A310 ( According to a few pilots i know from Air Portugal )

Ranger One
21st Aug 2004, 18:56
AVIACO:

...a cockpit scenario, where I am sure all TAP crews are excellent, vindicated by those who handled the current A310 situation

Hang on... if (IF IF ) the reports are accurate, and if (IF IF ) they well and truly bunted the thing in response to a 'simple' TCAS RA, I'd stop short of describing the airmanship of the A310 crew as 'excellent'.

Note the 'ifs' - no-one should be acting as judge, jury, & executioner at this stage.

R1

broadreach
21st Aug 2004, 19:37
Back to the thread. It seems that subsequent to this incident the TAP flight from Terceira to Sao Tome e Principe, due to be performed by the same aircraft, was cancelled. This from Portuguese tv which was reporting on the incident a few minutes ago. The coverage seemed fair enough although TAM's communication skills weren't being praised by passengers.

Would a cancellation be sop after what appears to have been a violent avoidance manoeuver or - my own surmise - necessary to clean up the mess on board: broken glass, cutlery scattered, olive oil all over the place etc.

And, regarding that "10 minutes before landing": it's been revised to 18 minutes which would put the incident as having happened at peak pre-arrival toilet time. On any airline.

Krueger
22nd Aug 2004, 11:19
TT2 said:QUOTE]Then after starting the sightseeing approach to LIS the sign was only switched on when we were line up..... CC ran through the cabin as standing in the galley was more important than checking seatbelts and taking a seat themselves... extremely unprofessional and I changed my return flight to LH after this...[/QUOTE]

On TAP's SOP's the SB sign comes on/off at FL100. Or if turbulence is found irrelevant of altitude.

Old King Coal said:

.[All aside from which.... if a TCAS RA ( one assumes that both aircraft involved where equipped with and using TCAS ?! ) is complied with in the correct manner it is actually a very gentle manouver, one which shoud barely be noticed by the passengers - wherein a Chuck Yeager styled max climb / max dive it is not ! .... of course if one chooses to diregard the TA, the RA, and subsequently has to manouver out of the way, that is a different matter.

With a RA , TAP's SOP's states to respond promptly and smoothly, disengage AP and A/THR.
"NOTE- The TCAS orders may require an incremental g which is greater than that achieved by the autopilot.
-Avoid excessive maneuvers but, if necessary use the full speed range Vss and Vmax."

Also it states not to maneuver based on a TA alone.


From the reports I've seen on TV and newspapers, it appears that the A310 was descending and the B200 was climbing. Furthermore, the RA appears to have intructed the crew to descend as well as the controler to turn right. So, at at speed of, say, 320 Knots, AP off , TCAS screaming descend, I would find rather understandable this amount of g (we're talking about the A310).

Anyway, I won't make any further acessements regarding this particular incident as I don't have all the facts. But saying that the flight crew was excellent or cowboys is going a little faster than the investigation.

My two cents...:ok:

Skunkie
23rd Aug 2004, 11:13
well...another history that passengers could read and learn....I wonder why both in general aviation and on line people are so unwilling to fasten their seatbelts! maybe they don't listen, they forget, they are scared or simolpy think they are "too machos for this stupid thing"! I think that most people as soon as pass the airport main doors experience a sort of "panic" at different levels and when they sit on the plane is even worst! it is part of human mind, they are not in their typical ambient, but looking back a lot of minor incidents ended with similar situations. Usually as soon as descent starts (20 mins before landing) automatically signs goes up and possibly a pre recorded voice or a cabin crew remember pax to fasten seat belts, if they don't do (I've heard the most disparate excuses about that!!!) well....I'm sorry if they injiure, but it is only their fault!
Ever seen, flying as a passenger, that soon after take off the first "ding" they hear (maybe only end of sterile cockpit not connected to unfasten seatbelts) suddenly you hear a thousand people unlocking belts? Like monkeys trained to respond to a sound they do the first thing they remember connected to that sound!!!! During short flights Pilots often never unlock them, but anyway they are all standing up and a lot of times they answer you badly or ignore cabin crew who warn to remain seated and fastened.....I'm always sorry for injiured but sooner or later they have to learn that flying is not exactly like taking a bus!!!!!

Skunkie

Final 3 Greens
23rd Aug 2004, 11:41
Skunkie

I do agree with your observations, but you have to ask yourself the question of who has normalised the air travel experience to the extent that pax equate it to a bus?

Have a look at the airlines marketing/promotions material and ask yourself what % talks about the risks of flying?

Safety is a state of mind and that involves being aware of the risks involved.

The message going out to the pax is not very strong on this generally (I mean from booking the ticket onwards) and relies on a PA or video briefing when emplaned, supported by PA announcements in a noisy and distracting cabin environment.

So, at least to my way of thinking, it is understandable that some pax don't take seat belts too seriously.

This may have been made worse by (a) their experience of travelling on airlines where the seat belt sign is used very conservatively, i.e. during long periods of calm cruise, meaning that they "learn" that the seat belt sign is not necessarily related to turb and (b) the fact that distrubances are rare - I fly about 80-90 sectors a year and the last rough ride was about 70 sectors ago (and it wasn't really that rough) - thats many years flying for the average pax.

Last week, I was on an internal flight in Italy and the PF was doing a great job in actively steering the airbus around widespread CB cells topping out way above us, in VMC; The belt sign was on and most people were strapped in, save for some Americans, who were changing seats, using the washrooms etc.

We never hit even a small bump, but I do wonder if the Americans have experienced the seat belt sign being on for long periods and have learned to ignore it?

Of course, the average pax looks out of the window and thinks "that a pretty white cloud", whereas those of us with a little insight see the possibility of windshear, hail, sev turb etc.

So the paradox is that feeling safe and secure increases bookings and revenue for airlines, but we need a little fear (or at least healthy respect) of the environment to convince pax to take the belt sign seriously. :confused: :confused:

broadreach
24th Aug 2004, 00:32
F3G and Skunkie, I beg to differ just a bit and from what's probably a narrow perspective.

My impression as a passenger is that more people than before (before being 10-40 years ago) tend to stay buckled throughout the flight. I'm pretty sure it's so where I travel; even what used to be a mass rising to get stuff out of the overhead lockers has changed to a patient wait until the aircraft's parked.

It may be cultural. The impressions of cabin crew would be more valid, I'm sure. But perhaps any contributing cabin crew could also give their views on what passengers do 20 minutes prior to landing on any flight longer than a few hours? Queue up for the loo maybe?

matkat
24th Aug 2004, 17:07
This is the airport where I have seen my one(and hope last)TCAS red warning,we were approaching TER over the harbour(can"t remember the direction)never been so scared in my life apparently an Air Azores HS748 was decending on top of us.I was in a L1011 must have been the summer of 1994.
matkat

I am Birddog
25th Aug 2004, 07:05
What is it with Tercera (TER). 3 years ago a Canadian AirTransat A330 aircraft landed there (barely) with no fuel. That airport see's more action than Hilary Clinton.

Although I find her strangely attractive. (Was that out loud?):yuk:

GearDown&Locked
25th Aug 2004, 08:39
I've heard in the local news that the flight recorder from this A310 was to be sent to Airbus HQ. Another piece of information, comming from a TAP source is that the time between the first TA and the RA was 20secs.

GD&L

ABird747
25th Aug 2004, 10:45
I don't know what aircraft some of you fly on but on all our longhaul aircraft the seatbelt sign is fitted with a connection to a little electrical pad on passengers seats... Whenever it goes on a large current passes through the seat making people stand up...

You can make announcements asking people to sit, go up to them and ask them to sit, stagger up the cabin through the turbulence to the queue outside the loo and tell them to sit, you still get the same morose brain dead look back -- sometimes followed by the helpless look when they fall over onto someone.

Passengers, you wanna stand up, you stand: just don't come to me when you've fallen over or peed on your feet.
:hmm:

Krueger
25th Aug 2004, 11:41
The guys from Air Transat are still thankful to have that piece of concrete in the middle of the ocean (Terceira). Otherwise, they would still be swimming by now.:p
I am sure it's allways nice to have a big runway in the middle of the ocean, just in case...:}

3forty
25th Aug 2004, 15:27
Trainer too 2:
Let me introduce myself to you : I´m a A340 captain for TAP,I´ve been flying for 35 years and,of course,I´m familiar with safety procedures .Your story is simply NOT TRUE.Never heard such a thing !!
We don´t seat disabled people on emergency exits.
Our Ccrews are instructed to STOP service when moderate turbulence is encountered.
We don´t do "sightseeing tours" before landing (ever heard about circling approaches ?).
The "seat belt sign" is allways ON below 10,000´.Shortly before landing (1,000 AGL) the sign is switched off and on to alert Cc for imminent touchdown.
What else can I say?
Are you a pilot ?
Hope not.

Marcellus Wallace
27th Aug 2004, 08:41
If what an earlier post said is true regarding the TAP in a descend and the OMNI in a climb then it is a scenario which happens all too often everyday. Pilots should be trained how to react or pre-emp these situations.

A simple solution which is to reduce the ROD or ROC to about 1000fpm within a 1000 feet of level off as recommended by Eurocontrol.

It is part of the design of TCAS II Mod & or ACAS II which is mandatory for RVSM operations to keep the aircraft in its current trajectory for RA's which involve closing aircraft - thus the OMNI would have probably been given a "CLIMB CROSSING CLIMB" and the TAP a "DESCEND CROSSING DESCEND" command.

This could all have been avoided by the pilots in either aircraft if this was actually the scenario that occured - just avoid it by reducing closure rates. Remember TCAS works on CPA - Closest Point of Approach and timings - the faster you are and the faster you climb and descend - the TA's and RA's will be generated based on those closure rates.

I think many Terminal Areas have hotspots where these occurences happen. Some companies have made it mandatory to reduce ROC/ROD when within a 1000-1500 feet of level off as a form of risk management.

FFFlyer
27th Aug 2004, 13:13
Actually, 3forty having recently flown with TAP as SLF & having seen what goes on, I can well believe it. My next stop is the solictors.

GearDown&Locked
27th Aug 2004, 15:50
What did you see FFF? now that you've mentioned, let's have it.

I wonder why certain persons still write this kind of enigmatic $h*t, with nothing to back it up :mad: . I'm not deffending TAP here, they certainly can do that for themselves, but what's being discussed here has nothing to do with airline SOP's, but only with pax careless behaviour inside of an aircraft, and I'll bet you'll see this kind of behaviour on almost every company around the world, mostly for the reason stated by Final 3 Greens, among others.

With that narrow-minded view FFF, you'll soon run out of "solictors" (or $$$).

GD&L

routechecker
28th Aug 2004, 15:05
Reported in a Portuguese weekly today and consistent with the small talk in the portuguese ATC community during last week.

Allegedly TAP was cleared down to 170 and the Omni up to 160.
Approach gave traffic info to TAP in the lines of "traffic climbing to level 160". TAP replied, "Roger F160", and descended to F160. When the controller realized the altitude bust he instructed TAP to execute a right turn. Horizontal separation was never broken. I would like to repeat the above word; Allegedly ...

Cheers

FFFlyer
28th Aug 2004, 18:59
What did I see GDL? Just another third world airline that offers poor service and never apologises. BTW, is it SOP to get ALL the pax off the plane onto the runway without a bus in site then nearly get them run-over by passing traffic? I guess it's probably standard in LIS. :D

Skunkie
28th Aug 2004, 19:35
Well there is a big difference between long haul and short-medium-range....I wonder why people have to stay up unfastened occuping the aisle and going to the toilet 4 or 5 times in a 2-3 hrs of flying. Of course not all passengers are like that!

But they usually are absolutely not aware of the danger they are incoming in....turbolence in clear air is quite difficult to prevent, and in the unfortunately case of an emergency descent it would be a mess!!!!! even if there is a decompression slow or explosive (I tried the slow with emergency decent and peple was scared like dead! no injiuries but a lot of panic between passengers....

Tour operators and line company should stress the importance of a seat belt fasten while seating.
It can happens that even on long range, because of adverse weather, people HAD to stay seated and fastened unless a problem (i.e. going to toilet, with all precautions, possibly contacting Purser, who monitor the pax.
It is absolutely impossible to have 30 people waiting in front of toilrt in this situations (also in normal quiet flights....a n emergency is always possible!
I don't mean people should stay all flight seated expecially on long range, but they should be instructed by Companies and Tour Operator of thr risks....

I've been flying also in U.K. were no one in the whole air space of England can move up to 30,000 ft....usually English people tend to respect it cos they are more used, while Italians are a little more unconsciouss of the danger!

Let's hope people will become aware of the risk of standing up expecially in a/c like B-737 were the space is very small.
I'm confident that sooner or later passengers will realize the fact and hope they will become more disciplinated for their own safety and to permit Cabin Crew doing service in qiute short times in order to satisfy everyone!

Let's think positive and, as crew try to transmit them this well behaviour!
Sooner or later people will become aware! :ok:


Skunkie

AIRWAY
28th Aug 2004, 20:01
I'm confident that sooner or later passengers will realize the fact and hope they will become more disciplinated for their own safety and to permit Cabin Crew doing service in qiute short times in order to satisfy everyone!

Hiya Skunkie,

Im not sure about that, how long aviation has been going on? ... And still no change...

Tour operators and line company should stress the importance of a seat belt fasten while seating.

They do all the time, even during safety briefings, but im sure you know, they rather read the paper than listen to a safety briefing...

---

FFFlyer

ALL the pax off the plane onto the runway without a bus in site then nearly get them run-over by passing traffic

Hard to believe this :hmm: passengers on the runway:} :} :} Many go arounds then??? Must have been fun :} :} :} Well if this is your version of the event, then go ahead with the lawyer im sure you'll need a good one if you want to win the case :}

:ok:

Final 3 Greens
28th Aug 2004, 20:16
Airway

For your edification, in many European languages, the word for runway and apron is the same and is translated as "runway."

Of course, living on your big island down under, you won't know this, since you all speak English perfectly - or should I say, you could do with a little remedial schooling.

AIRWAY
28th Aug 2004, 21:27
Final 3 Greens,


For your edification, in many European languages, the word for runway and apron is the same and is translated as "runway."

Many thanks for your valuable information, but as a speaker of 3 European Languages i have never heard of such thing

My interpretation:

Runway = A defined rectangular area on a land airport prepared for the landing and take off run of aircraft along it's length. Runways are normally numbered in relation to their magnetic direction rounded off to the nearest ten degrees.

Apron = The paved area in front of an aircraft hangar or terminal where there will be a movement of aircraft etc...

The same for the 3 languages i speak.

But thanks for your input, i shall investigate a bit more.

:ok:

Ignition Override
29th Aug 2004, 04:26
Many of our passengers have no more common sense than many Stage Guests on the Jerry Springer show. Notice their shame at traveling by air, requiring their most casual, worst clothing to be worn.

This is one reason that a few seats on many flights sell for almost peanuts-anybody can afford them, bringing in the residual cash flow. :=

If they are stupid enough to not fasten their seat belts (or forget), after being reminded, then they are literally on their own at 250-500 mph through the turbulent skies.:ouch:

APP Radar
29th Aug 2004, 22:04
About TAP ...
I'm not a TAP employee but only a TAP frequent flyer ...

It is a TAP standard not to sit disabled persons or children in the emergency rows ... I've seen cabin crew moving people on flights without pre-seating or people not reported as disabled in check-in.

It is a TAP standard to suspend or not to initiate service with turbulence ... I've flown FNC-LIS today, with TAP, in the cockpit, and as the seat belt signs were still on the cabin crew asked the captain for an expected time to be cleared of turbulence in order to initiate the service.

It is a TAP standard to have the seat belt signs on at 10.000 ft. Although when in the cabin we cannot be sure of the passing level/altitude, the time gap between the seat belt signs on and the expected landing time helps to calculate the passing altitude.


About LIS / LPPT
I'm not a pilot, I'm an Air Traffic Controller working at Lisboa APP and TMA

When the runway in use is 03 and CAVOK, most of the pilots request Visual Approach to Runway 03. This happens with TAP, PGA, RZO, LXR (the main portuguese airlines) pilots but also with DLH, AFR, BAW, IBE, ... There is no visual pattern oublished but due to proximity of other fields (LPCS, LPMT) altitude on base leg is normally restricted to 2000/2500 ft.

The visual approach to runway 35 is more "sightseeing" but the same restrictions apply except fo traffic joining right base leg, over the river.

Never heard about any plane allowing passengers to disembark if there was no bus waiting ... It happened some years ago when passengers were allowed to walk 15 meters from some parking positions to the main building but this was years ago ...


As soon as I get any relevant information about the incident that started this thread, I'll post it.

FFFlyer
30th Aug 2004, 16:56
Nary a building in sight so I don't know how it could be called the apron. In fact it was a 15 minute bus ride to the terminal adjacent to a public road.
I'll be seeing a lawyer about the smashed cases returned 4 days later, and about the compo we are now eligible for under EC legislation for DB, not TAP's SOP's. With luck it won't be us that are hurt next time they do that.
I do see the joke and understand it's all pretty hilarious when it happens to SLF.

APP Radar
30th Aug 2004, 18:35
TAP (A310) was cleared to FL 170.
OAV (B200) was cleared to FL 160.

Both traffics have made the correct instruction readback.

When informing the TAP A310 about the opposite traffic the controller mentioned the FL 160 and the fix where the other aircraft was flying to (the same fix but opposite direction).

The A310 pilot took the final part of the traffic information as a clearance and aknoledged to the controller flying to the fix and FL 160.

TController understood it as the readback of the traffic information without having understood that the TAP thought it was a clearance for his flight.

When realizing, by radar monitoring, that the TAP was at FL 160 the controller gave instructions for both traffic to avoid collision. meanwhile the TAP received the RA ...

GearDown&Locked
31st Aug 2004, 09:39
APP RADAR , the ATC in that area is military isn't it? It's a bit odd to have MIL ATC controlling both comercial and MIL aircrafts in such a vast region; my question is: Do they have the very same procs has civil ATC? is the phraseology identical, or is there something different in procs, that could have led to this misunderstanding?

FFFlyer get a life. Not even in FRA you would get a 15 min bus ride from one side of the airport to the other. To your knowledge a 15 min bus ride in LIS would give you at least 4 roudtrip bus rides from the most distant aprons (probably VICTOR, F06/08 or B04/05) to the terminal. What you've said would be in fact hilarious if it wasn't so seriously FALSE!:mad:

GD&L

AIRWAY
31st Aug 2004, 10:35
Sounds like journalist talk, if a ride takes 5 minutes they try to add another 10 on top just to sound more dramatic. :rolleyes:

Anyway... Thanks to APP Radar for posting some FACTS about the incident. :ok:

FFFlyer
31st Aug 2004, 15:19
Obviously GDL both myself and my wife were hallucinating. With that kind of attitude you must work for TAP. Your aviation qualifcations are very impressive anyway.

Krueger
31st Aug 2004, 15:58
FFFlyer:
I could give you zillion of posts like yours from TAP and EVERY single other airline in the world.
I am not saying that you are hallucinating, however your judgement could be somewhat (and understandably) altered by the upset of having your luggages damaged. After that it's easy to release your anger over every single thing on that flight.
So, now we can all get back onto the topic.
The preliminary report is about to surface, so hang on to your horses...

GearDown&Locked
31st Aug 2004, 18:07
Ok FFF, have it your way, whatever, but this is not the place to complain about what happened to you and your family regarding a flight with this particular airline. BTW, and FYI, I'm not related to this or any other company, I don't even work in this industry, and my aviation qualification is none of your business.

Having said this, I'll refrain myself from posting off-topic messages from now on.

AIRWAY
31st Aug 2004, 20:50
G'day,

It has been confirmed by the Portuguese investigation board that there was a miss interpretation by the Air Portugal A310 pilot regarding the instruction received by the ATC. Will try and get more info on this...

APP Radar
31st Aug 2004, 23:16
Airspace Classification :
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Santa Maria OCA FL 055 - UNL Class A

Santa Maria TMA 300 M GND/MSL - FL 195 Class C
FL195 - FL 285 Class A

Lajes Military CTA 700 FT/GND/MSL - FL 155 Class C


Lajes Approach provides Radar Service, Santa Maria TMA doesn't.

Altough above FL 155, both flights were in contact with Lajes Approach which, according previous coordination, would provide radar separation between the opposite traffic. This is a normal procedure.

As I've announced before, when earing the traffic information 'opposite traffic flying to FIX at FL 160' the TAP A310 took the last part as a clearance and flew to FIX dexending to FL 160. The controller thought the read-back was the acknoledge of the traffic information ...

There is a recommendation to TAP AIr Portugal to change the procedure about the seat belt signs, putting it as on as soon as the aircraft starts descending instead of when passing FL 100.

GearDown&Locked
1st Sep 2004, 00:14
Some facts from the Investigation Report:
(translated from the original (http://www.rtp.pt/index.php?article=123843&visual=16) )

The preliminary report about the TAP airplane incident at Azores has concluded that the maneuver was the result of a flight crew misunderstanding, which interpreted flight level information with a descent level instruction.

The ESPIA investigation board concluded also that the risk of collision was minimum because the Omni 338 had at all times the TAP 1821 in sight, and the airplanes were on diverging routes (about 800 meters lateral separation).

TAP 1821 descended bellow authorized FL170 because the crew had understood as descent instruction the information about the Omni 338’s flight level (FL160).

The descent to FL160 is a routine procedure on approach to TER, having this factor played an important role on this incident, because the pilot was expecting already to get the clearance to that flight level.

This committee didn’t saw any “major ATC errors” and found the TAP pilots to be “very professional”.

There will be a recommendation in order to change the current phraseology concerning flight level information, substituting “Flight Level” by “thousand feet above/bellow” as a way of preventing further misunderstandings between traffic information and flight level clearances.

Another recommendation is that the passengers will have to remain seated with seatbelts on during all phases of climbing and descending.

GD&L