Is this outfit wasting my time & money?

[pondlifescum]

Here's some questions for all of you flying instructors. Although I'm only a student pilot, I hope to sell my soul to join your lofty ranks in the future.

At the moment I am taking a break (out of frustration) from learning to fly at a military flying club. I originally considered myself to be lucky (I'm a civilian) to gain access to such an establishment as the costs are considerably less than the non-military counterpart - in the short term.

I also thought that the standard of instruction would be better but now I'm not so sure. Basically, almost every time I arrive for a lesson I'm made to wait around for a couple of hours because the office secretary has made a total mess of the bookings. Eventually an instructor becomes available and we go flying. I have had a different instructor for about every lesson - some are ok, many not so. I could count on one finger the number of pre-flight briefings I have had (students are told to read the book as there is no time for briefings). Is all this usual?

I try to book the same aircraft for each lesson but the secretary will often change it for some nonsensical reason to a different type. I find this confusing as the instruments are different - new layout, mph/kts, radios etc.

The PPL's who actually (amazingly?) finished their licences at this establishment have told me that it is a royal pain learning in this most inefficient organisation - I thought learning to fly was supposed to be fun! Average hours to solo seem to be about 20+, average hours to licence seem to be 60+ which seem excessive to me - or is this usual.

The secretary seems to run the place however she's famous for messing you around big-style if you fall out of favour with her. I thought about complaining to the CFI (a military pilot who only seems to pop in for flight tests). I was advised against this by other students who have tried - his attitude seems to be put-up or shut-up.

Most of the students I have spoken with are fairly disgruntled but accept their plight. But I'm paying good money for this 'Freddie Laker' of flying clubs (there are no club-type facilities, no social events). So essentially, before I move to another school I would like to know:

a) Is it usual to have a different instructor for every lesson?

b) How many hours should I expect to do to solo/finish of licence?

c) Should I be getting a pre-flight briefing before each lesson?

d) Should I be sticking to the same aeroplane type?

e) Is there an independent body I can complain to if I feel that I am not getting value for money?

Thanks for your advice, in advance!


[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 25 April 2000).]

[azzie]

in a nutshell, yes you are wasting your time and money. i can't remember all your questions right now, but you most definitely should not be flying different types of aircraft at your stage. i wasn't sure if you meant different type as in Cessna and Piper mixed up, or different C152's for example, but i'm assuming they are making you fly completely different types of aeroplanes. CRAZY!

If i was you I would leave. spend a bit more money for quality training and you won't regret it. you will regret getting a licence that others recognise as being second rate. If the school is as bad as you make out, i can't believe you are still there.

Sounds like a shocker to me.

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"if there is no peril in the fight, there is no glory in the triumph"

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Pondy mate, like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. Even if it was the most efficient school in the world, if you're not happy, vote with your feet and go elsewhere. Unfortunately it sounds like this club has many of the worst aspects of clubs as opposed to professional flying schools.

To answer your questions:

a) Is it usual to have a different instructor for every lesson?
Depends on company poilcy. IMHO it is far better to build a good rapport with one instructor you feel comfortable with, and a "standby" instructor who also knows you and can fly with you if your regular instructor is away.

b) How many hours should I expect to do to solo/finish of licence?
Varies, but on average 15 ish to solo, 50 ish to PPL.

c) Should I be getting a pre-flight briefing before each lesson?
Reading your Trevor Thom or whatever book will prepare you well, but you should certainly have at least a short brief on new exercises before you go flying, to check that you have understood your homework.

d) Should I be sticking to the same aeroplane type?
It will make your training a lot easier if you do, particularly in the early stages ie up to completion of solo circuits.

e) Is there an independent body I can complain to if I feel that I am not getting value for money?
Unlikely if it is a club and you are a member. Just walk away.

[BEagle]

Write to the CFI - making libellous comments like this isn't much help. If he doesn't know of your complaints, then he can't do much about them!! Insulting the secretary will hardly endear you to the organisation either. The Club in question uses 4 fully-equipped PA28s only (2 of which have identical panels, the other 2 having panels as close to the others as can possibly be achieved at economic cost) and charges about half the 'normal' industry rate. But you should be getting decent pre-flight briefs, no matter what!! However, if your membership has now lapsed, it's quite probable that you won't be able to rejoin as a civilian, I'm afraid. However, if you really are the 'independently wealthy (non flying) git' that you describe yourself as in your profile, then I'm sure that you won't find any difficulty paying the going rate elsewhere. I suggest that you e-mail the CFI today as he'll be keen to know of your complaints - although it would have been perhaps more reasonable to have written to him first before making such comments in public.


[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 28 February 2000).]

[Hugh Jarse]

1. You should have a maximum of 2 instructors. That way you are covered for days off, etc. At least one of these should be able to send you solo in all sequences. This way your training should remain reasonably consistent.

2. Between 7-15 hours. There are many variables here.

3. A PFB is essential no matter how simple the lesson may be. Anyone skimping on this should not instruct.

4. I have never taught an individual (ab-initio) on more than one type at any one time. IMHO it is counterproductve to the learning experience and will cost more in the long run. However, flying 2 of the same type (ie C152) with different layouts is acceptable. The ability to adapt to different instrument layouts is important (particularly if you intend to fly for a career). The company I work for has a common fleet of 11 A/C (and growing). I doubt that the flight deck layout is the same on any 2 A/C....

5. Dunno about the U.K. Nor Oz for that matter.

You need to remember (and perhaps reinforce) to the school as to who is the customer. Ask yourself "Am I really saving money by flying at cut rates here?" Learning to fly is just like purchasing any other commodity: Some times you have to shop around to get the best value for money. Don't confuse this with the cheapest price.

If you aren't happy with this school, take your business elsewhere. But before you do, give the company the opportunity to address the situation.

[pat mustard]

Remember you are the customer and paying good
money.Don't put up with that service find a flying school that suits you and your needs.
Don't waste any more time or money with them.

[BEagle]

The Club CFI is still waiting to hear from the originator of this thread. All allegations will be investigated impartially; however, all FI(A)s are being reminded of their duties regarding pre-flight briefings.
You should remember that a Service club staffed entirely by part-timers, driven by their own interest in sharing their enjoyment of flying with those who otherwise would never be able to afford it, is not a 'social club' - all 'socialising' is extra-mural and will not be necessarily be organised for you. Perhaps the self-discipline and self-study demanded of the average Serviceman in their education process is something with which you are unfamiliar?

[azzie]

beagle,

you talk about not insulting the school without approaching them and sorting it out, yet you feel free to insult the poor individual who just wanted some advice from others by the things you say.

you obviously have some personal interest at this flying school, or friends who run it, as you seem hardly very objective about it.

perhaps the people at this school are unapproachable and pondlifescum feels unable to approach them.

how about practicing what you preach and stop insulting others who just want a little help to get started.

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"if there is no peril in the fight, there is no glory in the triumph"