C152... V1... VR...

[Oz_Pilot]

A question for those in instructor land: do you teach this sort of technique? It doesn't really fit most light aircraft (i.e. when is an RTO going to use up a runway for a 152?) but I've seen it done as a prelude to "airline training". What other methods are out there - just rotate and TO safety speeds?

[DB6]

In a word, no. As you say, when are you ever going to use up all the runway in a 152 ? And if it looks like you will, use 10 flap and rotate at 45 instead. The other thing is that 152s are generally used for basic training, and it's a big enough task for inexperienced students to rotate at 55, let alone bother about some other speed as well. Rotate at 55, climb out at 70, Bob's your uncle. Also I think take-off safety speeds only apply to multi engined aircraft i.e. the speed above which if you lose an engine you can still keep control with the rudder so that probably wouldn't apply to the C152 anyway.
Cheers DB6

[Oz_Pilot]

Agreed... but I've seen it done... T/O and Landing data cards for a C152 training area sortie. The practice certainly lends itself to twins (although light twin performance with an engine failure then gives rise to the "airborne decision speed" argument).

[4478]

for a C 152 ore any a/c in this class you don't need a T/O data card, but for airline transport aircraft ist is nessecary. So why not starting as early as possible with the normal procedure, e.g. filling t/o data cards in the training. I mean ab inition training for ATP only!!!!!

[Angle of Attack]

Well for initial training in S/E aircraft airline training schools will teach callouts with the following airspeeds.1.Airspeed Alive, 2. Vr, 3. V2
Take off safety speed (or V2) applies to all aircraft, in a single engined aircraft its the speed you should be at 50ft after takeoff. Anything less you may not have enough control to lower the nose and land without stalling, and anything more you will have a longer take off distance required because the Take off charts assume you are at this speed at 50ft. Both Vr and V2 vary with weight, and for proffesional airline cadet schools students are expected to fill out a data card prior to each flight. V1 does not apply to single engined aircraft. Below V1 you may reject a Takeoff if you have an engine failure. Above v1 you continue even after an engine failure. In a C152 you reject the takeoff at any speed if your engine fails!

[RVR800]

When on holiday in Florida a few years ago

I came acros an Instructor who had a novel technique which I would not recommend

He counted to 5 and then rotated

Another rather worrying statement ..

He said that carb heat should not be used, its too hot there apparently

[Oz_Pilot]

Hmm... I'm heavy today. Better count to 8.

AoA - makes sense. The V1 practice that I've seen is often coincident with VR, basically (I imagine) the idea of having "V1" is just included despite the lack of application.

[fatboy slim]

Personal feeling is that you should be taught for the type you are flying - rather than for the licence you are seeking. During commercial training I was taught at one stage on a PA-28 with fixed gear that had a gear handle that we had to operate. Also we were expressly forbidden to use sideslipping on the c152 to knock off excess height because it was not a technique used commercially - the c152 sideslips excellently and might be very useful in an eng out situation. IMHO.

[dragchute]

I am afraid I have some difficulty with the concept of V1 speed in a Cessna 152 or any single engine aircraft for that matter. V1 is a decision speed at which the pilot, observing an engine failure, in which it is elected to stop OR continue the take-off to 35 feet, will not exceed the scheduled take-off field length if recognition occurs at V1. All speeds in a single engine aircraft that has suffered an engine failure are decision speed – where to put it down!

However Vr and Take-off Safety Speed (TOSS) are both valid when applied to single engine aircraft. Vr or the speed at which rotation is initiated will ensure that TOSS is achieved at fifty feet above the runway surface provided the pitch attitude is well judged. TOSS is a speed usually determined by the regulator, authority or manufacturer to ensure that adequate control exists during the initial climb after take-off in the event of an engine failure or severe turbulence.

In achieving the optimum take-off distance, the appropriate technique applied with accurate Vr and TOSS constitute important performance markers.


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dragchute
email: [email protected]

[BEagle]

You lot are all taking the pi$$ aren't you?? I don't think that I've ever read such UTTER BO££OCKS. Fly a C150 AS THE DESIGNER INTENDED and AS PER THE FLIGHT MANUAL!! Data cards?? In an undernourished spam can?? Get serious!! Teach and practice BASIC handling skills and airmanship in the C150 - the rest of the complexity appropriate to Public Transport (Airlne) operation can come PROGRESSIVELY throughout the students training ONLY WHEN IT'S APPROPRIATE!! Don't try and teach the poor little so-and-sos to run before they know how to walk!!

[Ham Phisted]

Steady BEagle, watch that blood pressure, you know it's not good for you to get too excited..

[windowseatdriver]

At the school I teach at, we certainly make the student aware of Vtoss (V2) as the minimum speed to be flown in the event of an engine failure after t/o with runway remaining (you want to get the aircraft down on the remaining runway and maintain controllability). If no runway remaining, the 60 kt best glide speed is taught to be used. As for a normal take-off, very little emphasis on Vtoss as you practically accelerate through it as you become airborne.
Company policy precludes us from doing simulated EFATOs where there is sufficient runway for landing (unless from a safe height).