Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin

[Wirraway]

Thurs "The Australian"

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,3600,371445,00.jpg
Discrimination? ... Virgin Blue will have to answer claims it only hires young, pretty hostesses.

Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
By Scott Emerson
August 19, 2004

THEY are seen as too old and too ugly, but they are fighting back.

A group of experienced female flight attendants are taking Virgin Blue to the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board over the stereotype of the youthful trolley dolly.

"It became very clear that if you weren't young, blonde, gorgeous and with legs up to your armpits, you had no chance," said 56-year-old former Ansett flight attendant Carol Dowling, one of the eight women complainants.

Ms Dowling said her interview to become a Virgin Blue flight attendant amounted to little more than a meat market with a song and dance thrown in.

Eight female flight attendants -- aged 36 to 56 when they applied for Virgin Blue jobs in 2001 -- claim that less than 3per cent of the discount, no-frills airline's workforce are older than 33, and that 799 of its 803 flight attendants are under 35.

Ms Dowling said the airline's application process included being asked to demonstrate the "Virgin flair" by singing or dancing.

Ms Dowling believes her 29 years' experience with Ansett Airlines, which collapsed in late 2001, counted for nothing at Virgin, an attitude that contrasted starkly with rival airline Qantas, which interviewed Ms Dowling yesterday for a flight attendant's job.

"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.

"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."

In the original application to the tribunal there were 10 complainants.

However, two have decided not to proceed further.

The application contended that Virgin not only discriminated against older workers, but that the airline's group test recruitment strategy was indirectly discriminatory in that it "favoured youth".

The Richard Branson-owned Virgin is expected to ask the Brisbane hearing to dismiss the case on the grounds that its search for "Virgin flair" has nothing to do with age.

Virgin Blue head of strategy and communications David Huttner yesterday declined to comment specifically on the case before tomorrow's hearing. "But I can tell you that we have people not just in the office but also on the front line, like cabin crew and check-in staff, of a wide variety of ages and background,' Mr Huttner said.

At an earlier hearing of the case, the tribunal in May upheld Virgin's right to request a song and dance from applicants as part of its recruitment process.

It pointed out that the ability to sing and dance was not dependent on age.

The tribunal found that Virgin actually rejected more candidates aged 18 to 22 than it did those aged 43 to 47, and that the airline actually rejected 93 per cent of candidates under 32 and 92 per cent of candidates above that age.

The discrimination complaint is not the first controversy involving Virgin Blue flight attendants.

In 2001, Virgin Blue angrily denied claims by the Flight Attendants Association of Australia that it had asked female flight attendants to wear G-strings, after several attendants had complained to unions about the requirement.

And a female business executive told the crikey.com.au website that the airline's female flight attendants -- whom she branded "fembots" -- treated her as if she were invisible while they "smilingly farewell every single male passenger".


============================================

[schweinhund]

About time someone took this mob on. It's been patently obvious since they started that this was their attitude. Hope they get their comeuppance.

'Course they wouldnt give me a job 'coz my legs are too hairy. And thats on the flight deck!

[Kaptin M]

Ms Dowling believes her 29 years' experience with Ansett Airlines... counted for nothing at Virgin, She's probably right in believing that.
Ansett was a full service, 2-class airline - VB is a no-frills, LCC.
No doubt most of Carol's time would have been spent taking care of the First/Business Class passengers.

Pilots who change companies also find out that their new employer is NOT interested in knowing how an employee's former company did things - even if it is a more efficient way.

Fifty-six, imo, isn't the right age to be considering starting work as the most junior (in terms of seniority) F/A in a physically highly demanding work environment.

"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."
"Watch out JetStar - here I come!". :ok:

[Wizofoz]

Fifty-six, imo, isn't the right age to be considering starting work as the most junior (in terms of seniority)

Kap,

One of the basic principals of LCC is that there IS no seniority. An experienced FA (or pilot or anyone else) can be placed in any position their ability and experience can be benificial. Someone of Carols huge experience would have been perfect in a direct entry or fast tracked Senior/Training role.

[Kaptin M]

As I don`t work for VB, I`m not sure whether they have a seniority list, however in this case - as with ALL employees - seniority is used wrt length of service within a particular company, as the "senior" F/A`s used to remind the "more junior" F/O`s (and even some "more junior than they" Captains!).

Conversely, Wiz, a "huge" amount of time spent with a company doesn`t necessarily equate to "huge experience" - or it may be "huge experience" not particularly relevant to another operator`s operating procedures.

VB have employed "senior" ex-AN F/A`s in the past, no doubt realising they had something to offer.
Is it possible, in this case, that the applicant was simply unsuitable for the position for a variety of reasons OTHER than age?:(

[Buster Hyman]

most of Carol's time would have been spent taking care of the First/Business Class passengers
Or avoiding the phone whilst on standby, or sitting in the lounge or....
and they didn't ask me to sing or dance
Whereas, at the Australian Idol auditions.....

I think she will find, like most other ex AN staff that applied to DJ, that they wanted people with no previous experience (in certain fields) to ensure that it was their product that was being pushed to the punters. Why would they want a legacy of another carriers ideas about how to run an airline?:cool:

[sinala1]

Conversely, Wiz, a "huge" amount of time spent with a company doesn`t necessarily equate to "huge experience" - or it may be "huge experience" not particularly relevant to another operator`s operating procedures.

Kapt M I agree completely! Whilst experience is often a very good characteristic for a person to have when applying for a (any) job, thats not always the case. From working in this industry, I have learnt, and strongly believe, that experience does not necessarily equate to competence. There are most certainly times when it does.. in fact I would have to say the majority of the time - but NOT always.

VB have employed "senior" ex-AN F/A`s in the past, no doubt realising they had something to offer.

Agreed again Kaptin! I know for a fact that there are significant numbers of ex-AN f/a's flying for DJ.

Hope this whole mess gets cleared up... I got rejected by another airline that I applied for - most probably because I am Male (and no folks it was not the US carrier 'Hooters'), but I took it on the chin and moved on...:hmm:

[schweinhund]

Geez, you blokes have missed the point, being led merrily down the garden path by the good Kapt, who can't think outside the Ansett vs others comparison.

This isn't about experience, its about AGE!

Lets say that Carol had zero experience, and is 56 years old. Would VB give her even a second thought? NO! Of course they wouldn't. And that my friends, is discriminatory. Right or wrong, VB have been setting themselves up for a while now. All they have been waiting for is someone to take them on.

And they deserve it.

Don't believe me? Visit http://www.hreoc.gov.au/media_releases/2004/37_04.htm and see for yourself.

[SkySista]

7, Anti-discrimination (a) Virgin Blue and the Association respect and value the diversity of Virgin Blue's workforce. (b) In conjunction with relevant anti-discrimination legislation, those bound by this Agreement will help to prevent and eliminate discrimination on the basis of race, colour, sex, sexual preference, age, physical or mental disability, marital status, family responsibilities, pregnancy, religion, political opinion, national extraction or social origin and will endeavour to ensure that the operation of this Agreement does not directly or indirectly discriminate against Cabin Crew or any other person, having regard to the operational requirements of the duties to be performed.

(Emphasis mine)

If she could do the job as well as, or better than, other applicants, she should have got the job. Whether or not she has the 'wrong' kind of experience.... why not have given her a probationary period as I'm sure kost other candidates go through? If she was no good at the end - see you later! (Before anyone comments on training, I'm sure it would not be such a big deal as she has worked in CC rle before, probably all that would be required is bringing things up-to-date and compant SOP's....

Sky

[Kanga767]

The Daily Bugle
19th August 2004

Considered boyish and pre-pubescent, they are answering their critics.

A gaggle of Year 9 computer students from Bagball Boys High are taking startup airline Koala Blew to task over recent flight crew recruitment.

“As the interviews progressed, it was obvious that Koala Blew were only interested in people with the appropriate licenses and relevant experience”, said class Chess Captain, Roy.

6 boys aged 12 to 14 claimed that despite their combined 100 hours flying computer Flight Simulator programs, they were treated with contempt and ridicule by the selection panel.

“I’ve even got the Australian Enhanced scenery ” claimed 13 year old Evan.

The boys have since been accepted into Skyballs Virtual airlines as direct entry captains on Beech 1900Cs.

“I e-mailed my flight video of Albury to Perth, and they came back in 24 hours” said a boy, who wished to remain nameless.

The class contended that Koala Blew not only discriminated against younger workers, but that the airline's group test recruitment strategy was indirectly discriminatory in that it "favoured qualification and experience".

Koala Blew head of Ground Support said that she had offered work to the local Scout group on weekends washing planes and emptying the Hangar bins, however she did acknowledge that the ability to ‘steer a plane’ was not necessarily dependant on age.

Customer Relations spokesperson Jackie said, “We have found that our passengers prefer grown men and women with licenses up the pointy end of our planes.”

[sinala1]

This isn't about experience, its about AGE!

Schwienhund unless you were present at these particular applicants interview sessions and privy to all the notes taken by the recruiters, how can you say that?

"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.
"It took five hours -- and they didn't ask me to sing or dance."


The point here is if you dont want to take part in the activities that are part of the recruitment process, then of course they are not going to employ you!

As mentioned earlier I was rejected by another airline that I applied to, presumably on the basis that I am male - but I dont know this for sure, and have no way of knowing - so took it on the chin and dealt with it.

Hint hint!

[Chimbu chuckles]

I find it interesting that, on the one hand, ex Ansett employees who are not successfull regaining employment in Aviation think themselves discriminated against, while on the other hand, those that do so often make themselves very unpopular in their new company.

It seems so common throughout the ME and Asia...so many pilots I speak to have horror stories about ex AN pilots making fools of themselves and causing people to be very anti AN, pilots in particular.

Clearly I'm not referring to EVERY ex AN employee but they (a significant % of ex AN employees) seem to have caused a lot of bad feeling.

What was it about AN company culture that convinced it's employees that they were/are so much better than everyone else?

Standing by to be flamed BIG TIME:ugh:

Chuck.

[Gnadenburg]

Mouths wide open, tonsils on display.

The one to the south east could swallow a fire hose.

All their PR crew photos the same. What ever happend to say CHEESE?

They recruited some blokes involved in the dispute to avoid discrimination claims, imagine a couple of senior ladies on line soon aswell.

Miss South East and co were supposed to be perks of the job.

69K a year to fly 900 hours a year with senior F/A's-:yuk:


Chimbu. What companies are they? Bit general again.

[Wirraway]

AAP

Pacific Blue, Virgin Blue under fire
August 19, 2004 - 3:04PM

Pacific Blue and sister airline Virgin Blue have come under attack amid claims of selecting flight attendants on the basis of their ability to entertain rather than look after passengers' safety.

Eight experienced female flight attendants are taking Virgin Blue, part-owned by British billionaire Sir Richard Branson, to the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board after they were asked to perform a song and dance routine as part of their interview, Australian newspapers reported.

Virgin has also been accused as ageist for only employing younger attendants.

The Australian reported one of the complainants said that the Virgin Blue interview was little more than a meat market with a song and dance thrown in.

"It became very clear that if you weren't young, blonde, gorgeous and with legs up to your armpits, you had no chance," she said.

Pacific Blue chief executive Tony Marks told NZPA part of the recruitment process was to put applicants into groups of eight to 10, and they are asked to create a Pacific Blue advertisement, which they can present anyway they like.

"We ask them to demonstrate flair they can bring to the airline," he said.

Pacific Blue has a complete mix of people on their staff, with attendants' ages ranging from 18 to 42 he said.

"Pacific Blue want anyone who has the right attitude."

Mr Marks said there had been no complaints about the request for recruits to perform an advertisement as part of their interview.

"We don't prevent people from performing a song or dance during the interviews, but it is not a requirement," he said.

Flight Attendants and Related Services Association spokesman Billy Boreham said the primary role of the flight attendant was to be a safety official first who can evacuate a plane safely.

"You would want a flight attendant to cope in those situations rather than someone who can play the guitar," he said.

Airline companies were forgetting the main role of attendants, he said.

"We know they want people to embody their product, but that should be secondary," he said.

© 2004 AAP

===========================================

[Sperm Bank]

Swinefund! More drivel!

Some 18 years olds get in, some don't. Some 50 year olds get in, some don't. BIG DEAL! What about the 35 year olds who miss out? Perhaps they can use the too fat or ugly argument. Some people need to take stock of their lot in life and move on.

With over 1500 cabin crew ranging in age from 18 to 50+, i really don't think the complainants will achieve ANYTHING other than expensive court costs.

[schweinhund]

sinala, those comments are a load of crap and it just illustrates just how brainwashed you are by this idiot mob.

The point here is if you dont want to take part in the activities that are part of the recruitment process, then of course they are not going to employ you!

No sinala. The point is just how relevant those idiotic activities are. There are many out there who will make excellent FA's but dont want to dignify the stupitity that these clowns go on with.

And if you are going to tell me that this is your culture? God help you if it is!

And sperm, I would query just how many FAs you have who are over 30. Not very many I would suggest. Those who are will be tokens.

[sinala1]

The point is just how relevant those idiotic activities are

Yes I agree with you 100%... Not sure how familiar you are with recruitment processes etc, but these "idiotic activites" (eg team songs etc) have surprisingly little (read: none) to do with the actual recruitment process - its how the teams work together to get these "idiotic activities" to work in the first place. Basic behaviourial competency studies. To be honest, I highly doubt the recruiters give a flying toss how well you sing or dance, its about the way you interact with others in what can be heated situations. Clearly the people who were rejected did not interact well with the others there on the day (this could be due to any number of reasons, and I am not taking a personal stab at any of them) and so were not selected to progress further through the recruitment process.

And sperm, I would query just how many FAs you have who are over 30. Not very many I would suggest. Those who are will be tokens.

Sperm, if I may answer on your behalf? There is a significant number of F/A's flying for DJ who are above 30... some ex AN, ex QF, ex EK, ex Gulf Air, others who are in their first flying role.

sinala, those comments are a load of crap and it just illustrates just how brainwashed you are by this idiot mob

Idiot mob? Yeah man I dont agree with everything they say/do, but hardly a bunch of idiots... and no Brainwashed I am not - I am not naieve enough to let that happen to me, I am capable of independant thoughts, feelings and intellectual processes, but yes I am loyal to the company that I work for! But thanks for your concern, its been noted :p

[schweinhund]

Gotta be fair. Thats a good answer, sinala.

But I would like to see the statistics on just how many FAs VB has over the age of 30. Because I spend a great deal of time observing them, probably more than is healthy really, but I havent yet observed one over 30.

And I do know a little about recruitment processes, including post graduate study in personnel management. And there are better ways of observing team behaviour under stress. Might I suggest to you that those younger, prettier people might have less in the way of inhibitions, and therefore perform better in those exercises you speak of. By doing so, VB get the people they are after, and have a seemingly logical explanation for it.

A generalisation, I know, but do you really think that Dickie would like to surround himself with 55 year old boilers? Dont think so. Do you really think that punters want to surround themselves with 55 year old boilers? NO. Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately. Is it illegal to discriminate - YES. Does VB discriminate - YES IMHO, but they attempt to hide it behind all of their usual bluff.

[Ralph the Bong]

I remember Carol Dowling from Ansett and agree with VBs' recruitment panel that she would probably not 'fit in' at Virgin Blue. Carol possess far too much intellegence, dignity and class to fit in with the current bunch of dim-witted eye-candy at Virgin.

It is may profound hope that she is successful with her application to QF. Should this be the outcome, perhaps she should sent Huttner and Oh-My-Godfree a tape of her singing a song that starts with... "I've been to cities that never close down..":p

[sinala1]

Might I suggest to you that those younger, prettier people might have less in the way of inhibitions, and therefore perform better in those exercises you speak of. By doing so, VB get the people they are after, and have a seemingly logical explanation for it.

To be fair, also a good point. Perhaps a better way to look at it would be not necessarily that they are discriminating, but maybe they need to include a range of activities in their behavioural competency studies, that allow different age groups to feel 100% comfortable? Admittedly I was recruited over 3 years ago, so have not been through their recruitment in the recent past, but from what I have heard its still a fairly similar process.

Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately.
Sorry to hear that :{

But I would like to see the statistics on just how many FAs VB has over the age of 30. Because I spend a great deal of time observing them, probably more than is healthy really, but I havent yet observed one over 30.

Percentage wise I could not tell you... but I can tell you that I am often mistaken for being older than 30, which I am most certainly not! :{ I can also tell you that we would have, at a guess, at least 100 over the age of 30. A small percentage, well yes - but not a small number...

Ralph The Bong: current bunch of dim-witted eye-candy at Virgin

Where does that leave me? I am most certainly not eye-candy (ie I am a guy) and definately not dim-witted (sometimes a bit slow, but I still get there! :E ) Perhaps I am working for the wrong company? :eek:

[Ralph the Bong]

Sinala, Caught up with a mate at VB in the hotel last time I was in Oz. I met a bunch of VB girls in the bar. I was only impressed by how vapid they were.

[Dehavillanddriver]

Just as a counterpoint.

The Virgin and QF pilot recruitment process are vastly different, with the QF process full of hoop jumping.

On the basis of some of the above comments, a reasonable argument could be made to say that the QF recruitment process is unnecessary, doesn't relate to the actual job and is discriminatory.

Each company has its target group of people to fill a particular role. How they screen people to fill those roles is their business I would have thought.

[SkySista]

I havent yet observed one over 30.

schweinhund, i am curious as to how you come to this conclusion. Are you telepathic and thus able to determine someone's age by looking at them? Or perhaps you've asked every DJ CC you've encountered how old they are...? :rolleyes:

Thought not.



Do I want to be surrounded by 55 year old boilers. No - but I am, unfortunately.

That kind of attitude will get you everywhere during a delay, a/c gone tech, whatever.... I'm sure one day one of these 'old boilers' may just save your ass.....!

I know if i got to choose between a bunch of hot guys and experienced male CC (goodlooking or not) who could competently get my little self out of a burning a/c safely, I know which I'd pick! My 'visual enjoyment' of the flight may be less, but then most people don't go on flights to perve on CC.....

Sky

[sinala1]

Sinala, Caught up with a mate at VB in the hotel last time I was in Oz. I met a bunch of VB girls in the bar. I was only impressed by how vapid they were.

vap·id ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vpd, vpd)
adj.
Lacking liveliness, animation, or interest; dull: vapid conversation.
Lacking taste, zest, or flavor; flat: vapid beer.


Is that your new word for today? I like it...

Today's intellectual debate stimulation brought to you by the letter V :E

[SkySista]

Perhaps said VB girls were knackered after a long day, and tired of being treated like objects by guys with sexist attitudes....
Perhaps....? :E

Sky

[jindavik]

I know one of these ladies. I was recently involved in a federal court case where we diverted because of an unrully pax. I would much rather someone like Carol or one of her colleagues than a bimbo from DJ dealing with this scumbag.

You blokes should think a little bit more about this. It could be your wife daughter or even yourself. What if they want grey haired captains?

[sinala1]

bimbo from DJ

Hate to break it to you, but bimbo's (or Himbo's, as apparently the male of the species is known) are not exclusive to DJ - yes we have our fair share, as I would presume does every airline in the world... (and that includes tech crew by the way!)

The point is that age/weight/height are not the determining factors in the way a person asserts themself in a verbal confrontational situation. A physical situation, well thats different - most flight attendants are in general female, in general fairly petite. No offence or disrespect to Carol, but on what basis do you build your opinion that age=competency? From my personal experiences, this is fundamentally untrue...

[Ralph the Bong]

Hmm...vapid was probably not the word I was looking for given the dictionary definition of the word. Airheaded would be a closer approximation. These girls were certainly not unlively.

..Or perhaps not, Skysista. Make up your own mind.
Some snippets of conversation:

VB FA 1: "I've been in 3 commercials"
VB 2: "Well, I've been in 5"
VB 3: "Well, I've been in 6 AND I was an extra on ____"

Later..

VB 2: "Me and my husband live next door to this total loser and bogan. The other night my husband punched him out. It was Friday, not like it was late, only about 11pm and this guy complained that my husband was making too much noise doing burnouts in his ute, I mean, what a total loser.."

Really?..Who is the Bogan?

VB 1: " I was with Paris Hilton on the dance floor and she was really coked and then we PASHED. Everone was looking at us. It was so cool, she really came on to me but I let her down gently because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, not like guys. I really like it when a guy comes on to me and I can tell him to 'GO GET F#$%^YED. I love it; yell it right in their face. Makes me feel really powerful.."

Later: VB 1: "I love it when I see guys fight. It just is so much of a turn on. Especially when they one is a guy I am with. If a guy I am with wins, I give him the hottest sex afterwards.."

Another Bogan, evidently..and:

VB 3: "Ralph, are you gay"
Me: "No. Why?'
VB 3: "Because you haven't come on to me"
Me: "Should I?"
VB 3: "No, It's just that most guys try to come on to me, unless they're gay"..

..Or just not interested.

The saddest thing is that the above is not invention.

At all other Airlines that I worked for, some cabin crew may have been a bit slow or engaged in the occasional binge but they all had a modicum of that difficult to define quantity, let's just call it 'Class'. These 3 were totally devoid of this quality.

What I have come to realize from this encounter is the demise of the dignity that was previously inherent in the airline industry. Historically, the people employed by airlines were generally seen to be a cut above most in the general community. With the advent of Virgin Blue, I now see how this has changed. What we have witnessed is a cultural shift in the recruitment practices of the industry.

It is my most profound hope that this is a manifestation that remains limited ti Virgin Blue. It is for these reasons that Carol would probably not be happy at DJ.

[mustafagander]

Did somebody mention being surrounded by 50 year old boilers??? Being single at my time of life, that sounds rather attractive to me, where can I sign up??? :ok:

[sinala1]

:eek: :eek:

Ralph

I have to say that I am 100% impressed with your powers of recall... its amazing that you can remember such detail from these conversations, when you were catching up "with your mate last time you were in oz", in a no doubt noisy bar situation.. :hmm:

Nice try pal, perhaps next time a little less detail will make you more believable...

[Angus McGherkinsquirter]

Just as a side thought, how many pilots 50+ do Qantas select for their recruitment process? Not too many I'd guess.

[schweinhund]

Sista.

There are two key aspects to relationships between cockpit crew and FAs. That is whether they would be good to look at and whether they are good to work with. The two can be interrelated.

And you query my talents with guessing one's age? Not particularly hard with VB FAs given that 30 really is ancient.

Angus, I'd suggest there are far more of those than there are VB FAs.

[TIMMEEEE]

So does this mean that the one-eyed aboriginal lesbians with speech impediments are now getting a leg in so to speak????

[ditzyboy]

TIMMEE -
That's hilarious! :)

sinala -
Don't tell me Ralph was lying... After reading the conversation he was involved in I was all ready to apply at DJ! Jetstar girls talk about their rich husbands, Ansett, marriage, Ansett, babies, Ansett and using staff travel... BORING! :hmm:

Ralph -
You talk of cabin crew historically being a cut above the norm... Yeh. It's these same ones who also have snobby elitest attitudes who take 'cut above' too far by being 'above' their customers. (Although there is ALWAYS lovely exceptions!) An attitude that is VERY rare at DJ but can be directly correlated to some of Australia's larger airlines, of both now and yesteryear. I think it's a great thing when customers are not too scared to approach the cabin crew. Seems crazy I know but DJ might just be on to something.

I think the Impulse/Jetstar recruitment team would make Carol happy. For such a young company we have stack of old boilers (male and female), who can't sing and are not all that pretty. AND they used to work for Ansett! :E No one eyed Aboriginal lesbians though, TIMMEE... Bring 'em on, I say!

[Wirraway]

Fri "The Australian"

Experience 'gives a flying start'
By Kate Mackenzie and Steve Creedy
August 20, 2004

WHEN Lynne Collins began working for Qantas in 1965, the job ended when you turned 35 or got married - whichever came first.

An anti-discrimination hearing continuing in Brisbane today has heard claims the Virgin Blue airline has made a return of sorts to bygone days by hiring predominantly young flight attendants.

Eight former Ansett flight attendants aged between 36 and 56 when they unsuccessfully applied for jobs at Virgin Blue in 2001 told the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Board heard this week only four of the airline's 803 cabin crew were aged over 35.

But Virgin Blue is vigorously defending the claim, and an earlier hearing found the airline had rejected a higher proportion of applicants in the 18 to 22 age group than those aged 43 to 47.

Ms Collins, 59, has worked as a Qantas flight attendant for 37 years and is the airline's fifth most experienced flight attendant worldwide.

Apart from a two-year stint in Papua New Guinea, she has always worked on Australian domestic routes as a flight attendant and on-board customer service manager.

There is no substitute for experience when it comes to dealing effectively with people who are frightened or aggressive, Ms Collins says.

"You get better at defusing situations," she said. "You learn to read people as time goes by."

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said yesterday his airline did not discriminate on the basis of age.

"I think we portray an image of sheer professionalism and also a company that supports all people - age, gender, you name it," Mr Dixon said.

"I just think that's the image that Qantas has always had. What image Virgin wants to build ... is their issue, not ours."

The Flight Attendants Association of Australia's Darryl Watkins said his organisation usually dealt with people currently in jobs, but ex-flight attendants should have an advantage in the market.

"We would argue regardless of age, that airlines should employ ex-flight attendants anyway because of their experience," Mr Watkins said.

More recent Qantas recruits such as Naomi Pickard, 27, who has been with the airline for 6 1/2 years, said experience was something the rookies appreciated in their peers.

Ms Pickard said new attendants at Qantas flew with a mentor for their first month in the air, which proved useful for learning how to deal with delicate situations such as passengers who were frightened of flying.

"Things like learning to anticipate people's needs - the longer you do it the more confident you become," Ms Pickard said.

==========================================

[SydGirl]

Gosh ditzyboy I thought that was a bit of dust on your shoulder, but I've just realised it's a BIG CHIP.

Good Grief!
SG
:E

[lokione]

Hey guys, I'm a tall green eyed blond in my mid thirties! 5000 hours total time, heavy turbine time, loads PIC and CANT get a job flying for Virgin or ANY airline here. Shouldn't I have a chip on my shoulder??Gotta leave the country now!

PS I would even sing and dance!!! :(

[gimme a break!]

Ditzyboy, is that your boyfriend calling? I think he wants his back waxed.

Sheesh. Chip? Is that his name?

[ditzyboy]

It was Yumour, kids - Yumour... ;)

I am embarrassed to be a member of the FAAA when they say stuff like just because you are a FA once you should be employed on that basis alone... What utter garbage!

Experience comes with doing the time and there is nothing you can really do to fast track that... But you cannot suggest DJ cabin crew are inferior to anyone because of their average age. Let Virgin employ who they want to employ. Why should they employ people who are quite possibly not going to embrace the company culture?

If I went for a job at DJ I would sing and dance because they told me to. Not expect a job based on my experience alone. (Though I certainly wouldn't rely solely on my singing skills either!)

If you think that ex-flyers (not of any airline necessarily) deserve a job based solely on their experience then ask yourself who might have the bigger one... Chip that is!

For better or for worse (we could argue all day!) there's a big cultural shift happening in airlines throughout the world. Whilst experience is definately an asset and an advantage you just can't preech it anymore. Times are changing.

[sinala1]

If you think that ex-flyers (not of any airline necessarily) deserve a job based solely on their experience then ask yourself who might have the bigger one... Chip that is!
For better or for worse (we could argue all day!) there's a big cultural shift happening in airlines throughout the world. Whilst experience is definately an asset and an advantage you just can't preech it anymore. Times are changing.

I will 2nd that motion... As stated earlier, I have interacted with some people (not only in aviation by the way) who are 10 years my senior in both age and experience, but still 100% incompetent. I strongly believe that age+experience does not neccesarily = competence.

Something to think about?? That said though, I am not belittling the value of age or experience, but ultimately it comes down to a person-to-person analysis I guess!

[jedda]

Hey Guys,What is so bad about giving young people a chance to do the job we all enjoy?I know both Carol & Lyn (both my era).They both had their chance when they were young,now give someone else a go.

[schweinhund]

Let Virgin employ who they want to employ.

I think if we did that, then discrimination would be even more common place than it already is.

There is nothing wrong wth giving young inexperienced people a go any more than there is giving old inexperienced people a go. Thats what this is all about. Discrimination based upon age. Thats exactly what VB does, and it is exactly what these people are fighting them over.

The experience that Carol mentions is more of an illustrative tool than anything else. She has proven that she can do the job. Now she has a fight with age.

VB are discriminating. Simple as that.

Ditzy, sinala, have either of you been on the receiving end of discrimination like this? You dont understand until you have seen it up close.

I watched my wife go through it. Its messy, painful, and just plain wrong. These big companies will use whatever nasty below the belt tactics they can come up with, lie cheat etc. It aint nice.

[sinala1]

Ditzy, sinala, have either of you been on the receiving end of discrimination like this? You dont understand until you have seen it up close.

Yes, I have - based on sex (and possibly sexuality?) but I have no proof of it. So I took it on the chin and dealt with it... not nice for anyone, but unless you have rock hard evidence to prove it, then you are pushing shi* up hill.

[schweinhund]

Yup, so you agree that is both unpleasant and wrong, sinala. So why just sit back and take it? Why allow VB to continue their illegal merry song and dance routine? Just because you are pushing sh1t uphill doesn't mean that you should give up. Try and try again, I say.

There is only one way to make these bastards realise and stop this behaviour and thats hit them where it hurts most - in the hip pocket. Thats the only language any of these corporations speak.

[sinala1]

Try and try again is what I am going to do with the airline that rejected me. But as I said, what proof do I have? How do I know that I was just not what they were after on the day? They do have males flying for them, and I am sure some of those males are on the same side of the fence as me, so on what basis could I stake my claim?

Same as these applicants that got rejected from dj... on what basis do they know that on the day, they were just not the most appropriate ones there? We agreed in an earlier post that perhaps DJ could include a range of activities to determine candidate suitability. I guess at the end of the day, just because someone has flying experience and was suitable for one particular airline, that does not necessarily make them suitable for another.... maybe that applies to both myself and the candidates that are taking this to court against dj?

(ps sorry to hear that your wife went through what appears to be such an unpleasant experience)

[air-hag]

I think I speak for most guys when I say that the average punter does NOT want to fly somewhere and be served by his grandmother or one of her gummy bingo partners.

Ageist? So what??? Why should VB not be able to market their product the way they want?

Is anyone here dumb enough to think the name "Virgin" is not a carefully-chosen marketing ploy? Sex sells people. Hard to pass off a 70yo bag pushing her Coopers walking-frame as a virgin.

I have no problem with VB hiring who or what they want. These "vapid" bimbos, like it or not, are eye-candy with a semblance of "how to open the door and run away" thrown in.

At the end of the day, why are these old women still chasing the job anyway when they are clearly not wanted??? Maybe they smell a SETTLEMENT!!!

I know Ansett fell over and couldn't get back up (like a scene in the local nursing home) but come on, Ladies.. time to bow out gracefully.





Why aren't they taking QF to court?? You want boilers, fly Qantas.

[schweinhund]

Problem is hag, those "vapid bimbos" (i love that term!) will be boilers in 20 years. The other sticking point is of course, the LAW.

Yup, I've no doubt they can smell settlement. In my time as an airline pilot I have found that FAs generally are gifted in this area.

But, do they deserve a settlement. Virgin purely and simply discriminates on the basis of age. They do. Just look at them. Image or not, it is illegal.

THE POINT OF THIS IS NOT WHETHER THIS BEHAVIOUR IS MORAL OR OTHERWISE, IT IS THAT THE BEHAVIOUR IS, AT PRESENT, ILLEGAL.

The law is there for everyone to see. I didn't write it, but I have to observe it like everyone else. Whilst VB flouts this law, then they deserve what they get.

[126.7]

I have to agree with Buster, the deal here is they wanted people who fit the profile of the company. How many Pilots did not get a QF jersey just because they did not fit the mold but are just as capable of the task as anyone else.

As Pilots we all know that experience and skill does not necessarily guarantee the job. Attitude and personality can either keep people coming back or send them to the opposition.

Perhaps young Carol had too much to say about the old days in the interview and blew it, who knows, if you were not their then let the courts decide and stop the speculation.

This site is starting to produce great poloticians, all say but know facts.:zzz:

[smile]

Are ALL the ex-Ansett flight attendants associated with this case female? I ask this because I just saw the news item to this story on channel ten news, and right at the end of the story it showed them getting into a van and the last one in was male.

If he is one of the crew making this claim I can see from his attitude towards the camera man why he didn't get a position with VB.

[jindavik]

Air Hag I am trying to decide whether you are pretending to be a moron or whether you are the genuine article. Imagine if your next employer required mature pilots who can separate their schoolboy fantasies from the reality of the workplace

[schweinhund]

126.7, yours is perhaps the worst spelling and grammar that I have seen on PPRuNe. If you aren't careful, people will start calling you adama.

With that mate, you should stay in the desert and stop calling others "poloticians".

[amos2]

Come on guys...is this for real?

Wasted time on whether 59 yr old "ladies" should be Air Hosties or not ??!!

Gimmee a break and get sensible!

They're all Grandmothers at that age and look like it!

Stupid old tarts!!(those wanting to be hosties, that is)

What's next?...69 yr olds wanting to be hosties? :{

And shweinhundt,stop being a politically correct twit!You're as big a drongo as they are! :}

[longjohn]

There is an interesting story behind the line here.

Virgin has well and truly seen the end of its Honeymoon period, and is now expected to demonstrate the same level of maturity as any other established business.

With that comes visible adherence to the relevant rules and regulations.

Whether or not they actually do discriminate, Virginblue, no Virgin group, purvey the image of youth and good looks (thier chairman excepted). It is inevidable that at some level there are those who will take unbrige to that fact.

Quite frankly, I think it is great for Qantas. As long as Virginblue continue to push the 'Fembot' image, they are helping to exclude themselves from the high yielding female business market.

[Binoculars]

Ahh, air-hag and amos back on the same page. Just like the old days.... :bored:

[Wheeler]

Ah Come on, its obvious what is going on here. If your are a regular customer of both QF and VB, the difference in age profile is obviosly deliberate. Now as for Jet Star????

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

I flew into defence of Ansett FA's recently on another forum here. I draw the line at this though!

Carol and Co are PAST IT! Sure, they have the knowledge, and the experience, but it is time to give the younger generation a go! They've had their time. Time to retire gracefully, not disgracefully in a bloody frivalous law suit, which is simply a stunt by all concerned. THEY KNOW they are not going to be readily employed by anyone.

Why not employ these old boilers as trainers. Great for that!

There is NO disrespect intended by me towards anyone. Heck, my mother is an ex-AN old boiler, and she laughed at this media stunt!

Hang up the hat girls. You've done your part admirably.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

You want a job, ya gotta 'sing and dance' for any employer, one way or another.

That means:

- Psyche & Skills 'singing and dancing'
- Sim ride 'singing and dancing'
- Interview 'singing and dancing'
- Group interaction 'singing and dancing'
- etc etc etc etc 'singing and dancing'

This time, it was actually singing and dancing.

What's the diff? Don't like the 'process', apply elsewhere.

Does that make sense??

[assymetric]

I think most here are missing the point.

If part of the recruitment process is singing and dancing then that is what you must do to have any chance of getting the job.

Many will say that what has this got to do with doing a good job as a FA.
That is a seperate issue altogether.

Is this the only recruitment process that many of us disagree with. This by the way occurs in various industries not only aviation. :ok:

[air-hag]

I think besides singing and dancing they should also be made to demonstrate their skills in a jelly-wrestling pit. A form of "milling".

And why not??? This way they can show just how determined they are to get the job. A lot will fail the test and this saves the airline in the long run. And no one gets hurt because it's only jelly.

This would solve the "age" issue because the boilers would throw out a hip or drop their false teeth into the tub and lose the round.

At the same time the pilots can be standing around checking out their assets in the area of what they have no control over.. IE they were born with (or without) it. This is also important.

[SkySista]

Without giving an opinion one way or the other....

these women appeared on the news here tonight (Perth)

apparently they were offered an out-of-court settlement but refused it, they do not want money they just want an apology. Unquote. Make of it what you will.

Sky

[air-hag]

Make them jelly-wrestle for their apology.

[SkySista]

Make them jelly-wrestle for their apology.

Using Aeroplane jelly, perhaps? :E

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

Air Hag, I'm starting to worry about you... I really do think you should seek some professional help about this jelly obssession you seem to have....

Sky

[Wirraway]

Sat "Weekend Australian"

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/20/virgin_case_narrowweb__200x174.jpg
Therese Stewart is one of the attendants taking action

Win for crew in Virgin age case
By Ainsley Pavey
August 21, 2004

Eight former Ansett flight attendants have been given the go-ahead to pursue Virgin Blue for discrimination after claiming the airline rejected them because of their age.

Queensland's Anti-Discrimination Tribunal gave the women, who unsuccessfully applied to join Virgin Blue in 2001, a second chance to lodge their claim. Their initial attempt in May failed. The attendants, who refused to speak publicly after yesterday's hearing in Brisbane, argued in May that they were knocked back because they refused to sing and dance in their interviews with the carrier.

But the women, who were aged between 36 and 56 when they applied for positions as cabin crew, now say the airline was deliberately seeking "youthful-looking" applicants.

Virgin Blue failed in a bid to have the second claim struck out despite the airline's barrister Chris Murdoch telling the tribunal the claims were so subjective that a ruling could never be made. "The (claims) do not get across the line," Mr Murdoch told tribunal chairman Douglas Savage, adding that they were "vague, imprecise and defective, despite being reworded".

Ten women launched the claim, but two have dropped out. Simon Hamlin-Harris, for the women, admitted there was an error in the first claim of discrimination, on the grounds of refusing to sing and dance because it was juvenile.

But the women stood by their claim that the airline rejected them because they were too old, Mr Hamlin-Harris said. He said the company's selection criteria had included a category known as "Virgin flair", which should be tested at a legal hearing.

Mr Savage granted the women leave to file the amended claim, giving Virgin Blue 28 days to defend it before another hearing. The women are still not guaranteed of winning the right to a hearing on the allegations, with yesterday's victory only giving them the opportunity to file the claim with the tribunal.

Outside court, Virgin Blue solicitor Bronwyn Lightfoot rejected suggestions the airline selected staff on the basis that they were "young, with youthful attributes or appeared to be young".

"I believe that is their (the claimants') view, it is certainly not ours," Ms Lightfoot said. "We do not discriminate on age, we recruit on the basis of behavioural competency. They didn't meet the behavioural competency on that day."

Ms Lightfoot said Virgin Blue's oldest female cabin crew member was 53, and workers were chosen on their teamwork and interaction with other staff. The airline rejected more people aged under 35 than over 35.

One claimant, Carol Dowling, reportedly labelled the selection process "a meat market with a song and dance thrown in".

- AAP

=========================================

[schweinhund]

I think hag has just proved my point. Singing and dancing is no more relevant than jelly wrestling. Unless of course you are required to nude up to do it. Therefore its not a valid selection criteria.

So, you can comfortably assume, as stated in the above article, that singing and dancing has zero to do with this claim now. It will be decided on the basis of age. VB is in trouble. This is now well and truly in the national spotlight. There are probably many more boilers out there where these ones came from.

[Wirraway]

Sat "Weekend Australian"

Age case against Virgin to go ahead
By Kevin Meade
August 21, 2004

SHE'S 53, she worked for Ansett for 29 years, and she sang I Got Rhythm when she applied for a job with Virgin Blue. Annie Hart is Virgin's oldest flight attendant.

She disputes claims by eight former Ansett flight attendants -- who yesterday won the right to sue Virgin for age discrimination -- that the airline favours younger applicants.

The complainants, who claim they were turned down by the budget airline because they were too old, have alleged applicants had to perform a song-and-dance routine, which they claimed was demeaning.

Although Ms Hart happily sang the old show tune when she applied for a job in February, she claimed yesterday that performing a song-and-dance routine was not mandatory in the selection process.

She was in a group of six applicants who were asked to devise a game built around a number of items, including a packet of Lifesavers, cards and a CD of songs including I Got Rhythm.

"The six of us decided that one of the rules would be that the first person who drew a king from the playing cards would have to sing a song from the CD. I drew the king."

A directions hearing in the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Tribunal yesterday began on an almost surreal note when chairman Douglas Savage asked counsel whether they had any problem with the fact he had been an airline passenger.

"I fly on planes like other people," Mr Savage said. "You're not seeking a tribunal member that's never flown on a plane before?"

No, it was not an issue, the two lawyers replied.

In May, the tribunal struck out the women's statements of claim after finding they lacked substance, and upheld Virgin's right to request a song and dance from applicants as part of its recruitment process.

At yesterday's hearing, the women, who were aged from 36 to 56 when they unsuccessfully applied for Virgin jobs in 2001, sought the right to submit amended statements.

Mr Savage told the women's counsel, Simon Hamlyn-Harris, that the complainants appeared to be presenting an entirely different case.

But he said the fundamen tal complaint -- that the women were rejected because they were too old -- had not changed.

Mr Savage accepted the amended claims and ordered Virgin to respond to them in three weeks.

============================================

[TIMMEEEE]

Just purchased a few CD's from the local store in a nearby mall.
The 20 yo girl (bleach blonde) working in the store just got a start as a F/A with VB fairly soon.

She walks around the store in a daze, cant answer simple questions and takes forever and a day to serve customers - and thats when she's not on her mobile talking to her friends.
(Daddy must own the business).

Now if they are willing to take someone of that caliber with absolutely no idea and nil service attitude, surely they could give these gals a go.
Besides, they really want to work unlike the CD store oxygen thief!

[Thylacine]

I watched 'A Current Affair' and these "Old Boilers" appeared quite positive and outgoing, just the sort that I thought could easily be suitable as F/As with Virgin.

I have flown many sectors on VB and can vouch that not all the F/A are 6 stone blonde air heads. They come in all shapes and sizes but I can only really judge the quality by listening and watching the Cabin Supervisors. Gone it seems are the remarks about staying behind and clean the aircraft if you stand before the aircraft comes to a complete standstill or if you wish to smoke step outside but some do manage to express their personality which is a criteria that the selection process tries to focus on.

I haven't heard of anyone being asked to stand up and sing or dance in the selection process but they do get the applicants into teams and ask them to come up with creative ideas and present them as a team. I presume this would be to get those more extroverted or with leadership qualities to shine.

As far as I am aware there are many ex AN and QF Link F/As flying with Virgin. The turn over is still quite large and many are using the job to pay their way through tertiary studies and very few would be looking to make it a long term career. Who in their right mind would; spending half your life in a cigar tube repeating safety drills and nights away in hotel rooms?

As for the bimbo in the CD shop who knows she just might not like what she is doing but have the right attititude given the opportunity in the right work environment. How would you, TIMMEE, feel if circumstances forced you to work in a hardware store? Could you get really excited about nuts and bolts and potting mix?

[gaunty]

If she and I were into jelly wrestling, I reckon you could do worse than the lady depicted here.

But I suspect we would share more sophisticated but equally enjoyable pursuits. :)

I am in my home, surrounded by the "younger generation" and I love em all and their mates to bits, but women of a "certain age" have a calmness and serenity that only life experience can give and are where my comfort zone is when I am on the move and the going gets rough. :p

OK I'll admit it I'm an 'ageist democrat', gimme someone with some miles on em as well as factory fresh in the cabin. :E ;)

BTW, does anyone know where you can get your odometer wound back:{

[planemad2]

What was it Reg Ansett used to call them?

Yes, that was it, "old boilers".

Actually in the limited flying I have done, have always found the more mature hosties to be better.

They seem at least to be more interested in the job, more likely to take your kids for a walk, or mind a baby for a while.

The younger ones (often) only seem interested in chatting up the businessmen.

Plus if there ever was an emergency, I think I would rather have the "old boilers" in charge of any evacuation.

[Kaptin M]

It appears to me, that these ladies can`t really decide why they failed to gain selection for entry into VB - the "excuses" have ranged from "not being able to do a sing and dance routine......not being blonde and leggy...and too old".

So "age" being considered the most likelyto carry any weight, is the one that`s been decided upon.

Many pilots who have been successful in holding employment positions with major airlines, have likewise been amazed at the selection process another carrier uses (eg. Emirates), and have wondered why they missed out on the selection process.

Are these ladies trying to say that ALL F/A`s in EVERY airline should be stereotypical of them, simply because they had long careers with Ansett?if there ever was an emergency, I think I would rather have the "old boilers" in charge of any evacuation. Quite a broad, sweeping statement, pm2. Several years ago, on an overnight stay in Osaka, I saw the (American) F/A whom, I was told, was the oldest one flying. Although she presented well, she was slightly stooped (onset of "Dowager`s Hump/osteoarthritis?), and walked with short, slow steps vs the rest of the crew, who walked with a sprightly step.
The thought that crossed my mind at the time was "It`s likely that she would require assistance, during any evacuation.".

An F/A`s position with an airline is #1 for Safety - age DOES affect performance, and the ability to perform physically.

[whipping boy]

Sir Reg would never have employed a flight attendant in their fifties. In fact he would not employ a married one.

Now these old boilers would have started in the seventies under those prerequisites and you can be sure they didn't protest about it then.

[planemad2]

Kaptin M,

I bow to your superior experience in these matters, however I stand by what I said.

Personally I would rather see some of these mature hosties on board any flight I was a passenger on, okay not all of them on the flight, but some of them.

I wonder how some of these younger ones would perform under pressure.

IF what you said is true, then all hosties should be young male weight lifters.

My Wife and I had a holiday in the USA some years ago, we found that although the hosties on United were mainly mature ones, the service was great, mind you we didn't have any emergencies.

BTW I take it the same applies to Pilots?

The younger and prettier the better?

I think most people like to see a mature aged grey haired Captain in charge of their flight, NOT someone just out of high school. ;)

I know it applies even with Taxi Drivers, the Companies prefer mature drivers.

[jedda]

I am one of Reg's old boilers(&proud of it).In the60's & 70's when most of these ladies were interviewed,the height requirement was between 5ft.3 & 5ft.7 with weight in proportion to height. Age 21 to 35 & "pleasant appearance"
I guess Ansett were more upfront than the airlines are now,but Ansett had an image,T.A.A. had an image and so did Qantas.Virgin has an image and who can blame them for wanting to employ people who fit their mould.
I wouldlove to be cabin crew still,but I got married and had to leave.Should I sue the Ansett administrator for discrimination?
Get real.

[Kaptin M]

all hosties should be young male weight lifters. To remain consistent, then I`d probably have to say that they would be the most suitable in most emergency situations.

Who remembers the "hairy legs" that Ansett used to use, almost exclusively out of FNQ, because of the "types" of pax carried...mainly miners.I think most people like to see a mature aged grey haired Captain in charge of their flight, And that, I guess, is the reason airlines have selection processes - not ALL grey-haired Captains would be a better pilot than their younger counterparts.

It`s a sad day when an employer can`t choose whom he wants working for him.

[schweinhund]

It`s a sad day when an employer can`t choose whom he wants working for him.

This kind of extreme right wing attitude is almost nazi in it's basis.

Let me tell you Kapt, since you still don't seem to get it, that it's an even sadder day when employers are allowed to discriminate willy nilly. And it's perfectly clear that VB does.

[HotDog]

This kind of extreme right wing attitude is almost nazi in it's basis.

Really schweinhund, as one dog to another; you are being somewhat dramatic! You obviously do not run your own business or have any experience in employment selection. It would be a sad day indeed if I didn't have the right to refuse entry to an applicant that didn't suit my requirements, into my "chalet".

[air-hag]

interesting comparison with nazis coming from the shveinnen-hunden.

but so what, Hitler had plenty of good ideas too you know??

bit of a long bow to draw, calling it EXTREME RIGHT WING. if it was your company and someone told you whom to hire I guarantee you'd be shat off too. a sad day when an employer can`t choose an even sadder day when employers are allowed to discriminate so according to Pig-Dog and Kap M, every day is a SAD DAY but some are sadder than others.

[schweinhund]

Nobody gets this, do they?

No-one is telling them who they can and cannot hire. They are however being told they cannot discriminate on the basis of age. And this is exactly what they are doing!

[HGW]

Schweinhund

You are on every topic bagging Virgin. Come clean and tell us why. Were you sacked from VB or knocked back from a job with them?.

On the post subject, welcome to the real world. I am 46 and were knocked back because of my age. Every company in the world does it and I am sure if you owned a business you would do it too. It can not be proven.

[air-hag]

You just don't get it, do you Dacshund.... :hmm: :ok:

Who CARES if they're discriminating (choosing) against age, they have to make a decision based on something and when everyone's sung their version of "I'm a Little Teapot", what else is left??? The jelly-wrestling pit, I guess.

And how would you know this is "exactly what they are doing" anyway, are you on the panel?

Hostying is a young girl's world.

Let's hear it for a boiler-free Aussie airline scene. let's face it, 300000 dirty old aussie travelling businessmen can't ALL be wrong...

A strike cleared out the old farts in the domestics. Maybe it'll do the same at QF.

[Ralph the Bong]

Sinala has raised a very valid issue; that the culture of traditional airline recruitment has changed. However, I would like to point out that this cultural change is (in my experience)limited to Virgin Blue and its' related or similar companies.

Historically, airline recruitment focused on employing individuals who could enhance the saftey culture and the public confidence of the airline and the industry. This was brought about by the publics' lack of total confidence in the airline industry as a safe and comfortable means of transport.

The lessons of the past were most painfully learned from the various smoking holes in the ground that resulted from various human failings. The industry as a whole recognised that airline staff needed to be of a certain caliber, if not simply on saftey grounds then so as to enhance the community perception of the industry.

This is the background to how the safety culture of the airlines has evolved. It also explains the traditional public image of airline staff, at all levels of the business, as being switched on people with positive qualities. Even to be a baggage handler the minimum requirements were to possess at least an average level of intellegence and common sense.

This approach that has been taken by the airlines has been quite successful. The fare paying public expects that the crew is competent and well trained, the aircraft servicable and that the flight will depart and arrive safely and pretty much on time. The seriousness of the staff towards the nature of the business was well understod by the customers, who expected nothing short of perfection from those charged with their safety and comfort.

It was in this existing industry framework that Virgin Blue came into being. This company broke the mould of encumbant airlines when it came to its image. It projected the image of a 'fun' company rather than the conservative aura that had been a characteristic of traditional carriers. Yet it should be noted that without the approach taken by the longstanding carriers and the postive public perception of the industry that these companies had fought for, marketing a company with a youthful and fun-loving attitude would be clearly impossible. It is here where we see that a cultural change has been effected.

However, simply riding on a wave where a company such as Virgin Blue can be successful does not make it a worthy organisation. There is no doubt that the level-headedness typical of industry staff in other airlines is lacking at Virgin. In fact, it is exactly this zany attaitude that the company activly seeks when employing staff, particularly cabin crew!

On a fairly recent flight with Virgin Blue I witnessed the Purser(or whatever they are called at VB) welcoming people on the flight to Cairns,which was NOT the destination ("HA, HA fooled YA!! Well, who'd LIKE to go to Cairns? ..How about Vanuatu?.. HA, HA..)(does this constitute conspiracy to commit air piracy?). He then asked if it anyones birthday("Yeah? Hey, mine too. BIG HUGS!!" He then races down the cabin to the birthday pax and cuddles some bloke). He then invited the lucky pasenger to participate in the safety demo, which derided the whole safety point of the excercise. He then took time out to bag Jetstar on the PA. At top of decent he made some reference to the fact that "..the pilots, once again, have managed to find the destination.." ( They do dress like high-tech. janitors, I suppose, so why not imply to all the folks that they may be incompetent?)As part of the safety briefing, he had the demerity to say that he was an "airsafety professional" I mean, with this attitude, who is this CLOWN TRYING TO KID?? This sort of garbage not only diminishes the public perception of the industry but, paradoxically almost, could not exist or survive without that bult up by the traditional industry approach! Is Virgin serious when that employ these sort of people into what is a high risk industry?

Combine this attitude with the personal 'qualities' of the 3 insipid bimbos that I refered to in an earlier post(one didn't even know what day it was, anothers lips moved when she was reading). This sort of company persona and recruitment practice is totally against the existing industry image that has brought aviation to where it is today. And I'll tell you right now, VB just don't pay enough to entice me to work there. This company is devaluing the not only image of the industry, but also the public perception of those who work in it.

[amos2]

Don't often agree with Ralph...

but, he's right on the money with that post! :ok:

[HGW]

I second that. Well said and I respect your opinion even though I don't agree totally.
This is what this forum should be like instead of the incessant, racist ramblings of people like Schhweinund.

[Capt Snooze]

Well Ralph,

At least the purser seems to have gotten your attention!

The standard safety briefings on most carriers have more in common with the disclaimers in small print on the bottom of a biscuit packet.


Snooze

(for the record, never hired / not hired by any of the companies discussed)

[schweinhund]

HGW, if VB deserve bagging then they'll get it. I "bag" when I feel it's appropriate. You disagree with me, and so therefore you bag me right back again. Ralph has pretty much said what I did, but in a lot more words.

And BTW, HGW, you weren't knocked back because of your age. It was your spelling and grammar that let you down!:p

[air-hag]

Not sure what Ralp TB is trying to say as I got bored after para3.

Something about Virgin's "cherry-picking" employment policies being just fine with anyone of normal countenance, I think.

They should hang a sign on the window that says:

___________________________
Hosties Wanted:

Minimum Requirements:

Cherry.
___________________________







:ok:

.
.

[alidad]

perhaps the hiring of older inpregnable flight attendants might help the senior managers of Virgin better manage the balance between their professional and private lives. :ugh:

[Binoculars]

Well, that sounds like an interesting piece of gossip! Care to follow it up? :}

I don't often agree with Amos, who doesn't often agree with Ralph, with whom I have crossed swords in the past, but we appear to be reluctantly occupying a piece of the same side of the argument. Thank God air-hag is on the other side making his usual witless posts.

I agree entirely with Ralph on the whole false bonhomie crap that Virgin FA's go on with, it's embarrassing and demeaning to all over the age of 25 who don't spend their waking hours texting.

I lay my sexist credentials on the line by admitting, before somebody else dobs me in, that I waxed apoplectic in these pages about a particular Virgin FA's fantastic posterior, positioned as it was at my eye level while she said whatever she said in the briefing. But I could also point to many posts where I abhor the world's obsession with appearance, and I would prefer class to arse most times. As Gaunty said, that tends to come with maturity, and Ms Stewart as photographed does more for me than most young bimbos.

Let's see now;

1. For Virgin to deny their employment decisions are based largely on physical appearance is laughable.

2. This is now against the law. Whether you believe that is a good thing is simply a personal preference based on ideology. Should wheelchair-bound applicants for FA positions be treated without discrimination?

3. Producing one 53 year old FA as proof of their supposed even-handedness, together with suggesting they reject more under 35's than over 35's is an abuse of statistics that a schoolchild could destroy. Only a PR spin doctor could quote that with a straight face. (Or a lawyer.) :8

4.
It`s a sad day when an employer can`t choose whom he wants working for him.

On balance I agree with Kaptin M. If you're paying the bills it's hard to justify how anybody can tell you whom you can or can't employ. But that's an another argument altogether. Isn't it? :confused: It certainly doesn't make Kapt M a nazi.

5. Virgin are there to make money. If Branson's idea of making more money involves young gorgeous airheads do we have a right to stop him? If you don't like it, don't fly with them.

6. What bloody side am I on here? I have no idea! Let the market decide. As long as I never have to agree with air-hag, I'll sleep OK.




:ok:

[air-hag]

you see, Binoss, you say I'm on "the other" side but by the end of your aimless mumblings, your other personality has taken over and you are on the same side.

Let the market decide what side you're on??? Do you even have an opinion?

Weird.

So you're "embarrassed" and "demeaned"? You sound like a VB frequent-flyer. So tell us, how many times have you even flown with VB? And why do you continue to do so? If you're so offended why not fly with Pornstar?

Anyway after your recent self-confessed descent into bitternity and internalised chaos, how can we ever pay heed to any of your "opinions" again?

Why so angry and serious, Binoss? :oh: Life's too short.



PS HGW how did you manage to drag "Racism" into the argument????

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Ich denke, daß der Hund Scheiße sich hat. Armes kleines Hundchen.

You know when someone is out of intelligible vitriol and rhetoric when they resort to picking on someones spelling and grammar.

[Kaptin M]

But the women, who were aged between 36 and 56 when they applied for positions as cabin crew, now say the airline was deliberately seeking "youthful-looking" applicants. Out of curiosity, I wonder how many females in that age group are accepted by QANTAS and J*?

How many of them even got as far as the interview stage with either of those 2 other airlines? And if they did, were any of them accepted?
If not, then will, they be taking the same action against QF and J*??

(For the record, I'd have to honestly say that Ms Stewart doesn't appear to have aged one single day from my memories of her pre-'89 :ok: )

Ralph your little jibes at VB, whenever you get the opportunity, don't go unnoticed - even if you do try to pad them with other stuff.
There also seems to be an underlying trace of misogynism in many of the references you make to females, and highlighted in your Jet Blast topic Eastern flowers, Western slags (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1009727&highlight=Eastern+flowers#post1009727)!!

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Let's face it, this is just a media stunt. Group of unemployed ex-FA's out to try to bring attention onto themselves, and have a dig at Dj - a LOT of former AN employees still hold DJ responsible for the demise of AN.

[gaunty]

Hiya Kaptin M

best regards to you and yours. :)

Romeo Tango Alpha

a LOT of former AN employees still hold DJ responsible for the demise of AN.

I find that absolutely :rolleyes: amaaaaazing. I am not disputing that they do, just commenting on the unbelievable arrogance of that attitude.
It is not, therefore, surprising that they did themselves in.

They once were "right up there", but it seems they started to really believe their own bulls hit.

It's a real bugger when you find out that you have some serious competition, but if you accept that as a fact of life you get to have some real fun, the total market actually grows and everybody wins.:D :cool:

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Did Woomera yank the last post?

Dang, and I had something whitty to respond with... :E

[Woomera]

Not guilty yer 'onour.

Eeerm what post??

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

There was one after Gaunty's, that ain't there no more...

It was a generally vindictive and spiteful post - a DJ basher at his/her best.

[air-hag]

Maybe Ralph has dealt with one too many bunny-boiling, psycho-chicken, nut-case, stark-raving-loony hosties in the sack on layovers.

Hey I don't find it surprising at all. There's a lot of them out there, I can tell you that for nothing.

Still... "slag" is rather a harsh description. I prefer the term "slapper". The poms came up with quite a good one, there, don't you think?

"Slapper" would go a long way toward describing the vapid bimbos he met and with whom he had the in-depth discussions mentioned earlier. Or maybe "Strumpet", which I believe is an older "slapper".

[126.7]

Schweinhund, Go back to Law school. You are the very best at grammar and spelling. You are the King, MATE!

But unfortunately you have no idea of the case, you are relying on the speculation of the media and the glossy photo's.
Fact is, MATE, you are a sore and sorry little boy without a life.

One has to wonder whether or not one of the fine ladies in the middle of all this is your wife.

Bloody hell trying to spell and get the grammar right for you hundy is worse than me 6 monthly sim check.

:bored:

[Binoculars]

air-hag So angry and serious? Moi?? I thought my post was fairly light-hearted, and as for having an opinion, I think I made it perfectly clear that I can see both sides of this. Do I have to have a black and white opinion to justify posting? This is hardly a world peace issue after all. If my mumblings were too confusing for you, read points 1 and 2 therein again. They sum up the whole argument.

Yes, I find the DJ cabin crew schtick embarrassing, in much the same way as I find breakfast radio irritating; all that false cheeriness doesn't suit those of us who have descended into "bitternity". :rolleyes:

It's hardly a reason for changing airlines though. I make my choices based on the general principle that Australia's safety regulation has enough checks and balances to ensure that nobody I fly with is going to fall out of the sky, so I fly with whoever is cheapest. Easy.

My flights are usually no longer than 75 minutes. I don't need to eat or drink in that time. If the seats are a bit squeezy and I have to put up with juvenile fun fun fun patter, so be it. Pornstar? No problems. Had occasion to fly to Brisbane three times in two weeks recently and used them each time.

As for valuing my opinions, as long as you find them uninteresting, I'll know I'm on the right general track. :ok:

[Flying Ninja]

Don't believe that VB can be seen to be the reason for An demise.

Can't believe that VB can be compared to An or QF more like Pioneer or Greyhound with "scrubbers" as flight attendants. l
It appears as though there are sufficient passengers who will fly with them. So be it.
If it is a success for the new shareholders, good luck to the mums and dads with shares.. Branson has already done well for himself and doesn't need congratulating. I do admire him.
I would not have bought in at the float because it was grossly overvalued. I bought QF.
The future holds little expansion, more competition in the market and all the large capital costs ahead for VB.
To me that's increasing costs and stagnating profits. Quite a cocktail
I doubt that Sir Rich, or the upper management will foot the bill for these expenses.
I remember when they were secondhand plane salesmen with less than the best reputation. They also did not start National Jet. A company called National Airlines ran an old G1 freighter out of their offices. As I said , secondhand plane salesmen.

I had decided that providing the service was acceptable, I would fly based on price.
I have flown with VB a few times and I am not happy. I personally also doubt the ability of VB F/As, that I have seen, to assist passengers in an emergency. After all , that's the prime role, not wearing a G string and bulging out of their clothing.
I have found better prices on QF many times, I get service ( even if the standard has dropped) and I get the ground support that VB don't care about and couldn't supply in any case.
I still have a "credit" with VB that I can't get to use for some reason. So I suppose that is lost.
I trust those "fat old ladies" and "old horses hoofs" on QF more than I trust some young "scrubber" who hasn't got the discipline to even polish her shoesfor what appears to have been weeks or never, but remembers to put her G string back on to go to work. I suppose the G string would be handy for a second job as a "table top dancer", seeing that the pay at VB is so low. Maybe VB could recruit some of those but then the passengers would want drinks, and the tarts would have to "remember" the drink orders as well as dance, or sing ,or........

Better I let the bus crowds get their rocks off at VB. I will save money(if I can), more importantly get home safely and look there for my feminine companionship.

To the Krap.

look forward to hearing how you get on at J*.( Haahaaahhaaa )
Remember, they have psychological testing.... UUMMMMM, could be a stumbling block... me thinks..........What do you say Kap??
any interview, yet?.......any takers?.....any?
Bye the bye, have you had an interview with VB yet ?
NO...... I know, you were offered an Job and accepted but you decided to change your mind on the drive home,after you realised the pain and suffering that you would cause to your family, friends as well as the general public by returning to Australia

[Kaptin M]

Australia's safety regulation has enough checks and balances to ensure that nobody I fly with is going to fall out of the sky Gotta agree with you there, Binos - I think Ralph's rant, where he states"Historically, airline recruitment focused on employing individuals who could enhance the saftey culture" was off the mark....it has been the regulatory bodies in the main, who have whipped the airlines into shape, along with the aircraft manufacturers.
IMO, the airline companies will do the MINIMUM they are required to do (read spend $$$'s) to comply with the safety rules imposed upon them.

Air crew recruited were basically, for pilots - the most experienced for age, with a reliable employment history, whom they believed (through interviews and tests) would fit in with the 2/3 crew concept.
And for the F/A's - the most presentable, who could represent the company hundreds of times per hour per day, endure physically demanding work (walking kilometres in an O2 reduced environment), and prove once every 13 months that they could execute the necessary minimum safety knowledge.
Okay, that's the abbreviated version, but nonetheless the "guts" of it!!

Yes, I find the DJ cabin crew schtick embarrassing, So why is it that YOU find it embarassing, Binos? Do you mean you feel embarassed for them - or are you embarassed, as an Australian, to think that other nationalities might consider this is how ALL of Australia's airlines carry on?
Personally, I believe it's a little bit of the "Olde Country" conservatism coming out in you (which surprises me:eek: ), and is evident in many Australians....a "shyness" perhaps, rather than the extrovert, rah rah type behaviour we associate with Americans (for example).
Yet a common quip from Brits visiting Oz (and even from Kiwis) is how much more like the USA, Australia and Australians are, than the U.K.

Ralph's rant again highlights the "conservativeness" in the Australian psyche when he wrote,"He then invited the lucky pasenger to participate in the safety demo, which derided the whole safety point of the excercise."
Even from my Oz perspective, but as a pilot interested in promoting Safety, I personally believe that this was a very POSITIVE action the F/A took, in involving the pax in a very important safety issue.
Good on him :ok:

So is it possible that VB are pushing us further down the (extroverted) American road vs the (conservative) British one?
Are we being forced out, from underneath our rock?
It's amazing how uninhibited a little bit of alcohol can make us (or give us an excuse to let our hair down a bit), isn't it?

And just as we can become the serious conservative again, once the party is over, I'll BET the VB crew have a personality that will DEMAND you follow their orders in any non-normal situation!

[jedda]

Schweinhund ,how do you know that the ex An people were rejected because of age?Did someone die and make you God!You are a nishtikit!Alaichem shalom

[Ralph the Bong]

Kaptin M, I'll leave it to others to decide whether or not my post regarding VB was a rant. As for your comment that I was "off the mark" regarding selection of airline staff and their potential contribution to safety culture, you are historically incorrect. In regards to cabin crew alone, many airlines in the US were ONLY recruiting applicants who were qualified nurses as far back as the 1930s'. This was not a regulatory requirement, it was an initiative brought about by the companies off their own bat.

My comments about VB noted? By who? By VB? What are they going to do? Not offer me a job? Send a hit-man? Who cares? I am very happy where I am and have far better prospects for the future than what VB could offer. I note that you aren't working there either. There are much better options than Virgin for experienced crew, aren't there?

As for being conservative in my approach to flying, I make not appology for this. I also expect my co-workers in the industry to be conservative in their attitudes towards work. If you are a pilot interested in safety, good on you; so am I. Involving pax in saftey demos whilst making jokes is not conducive to effectively communicating the content of the briefing. I doubt that many pax could take in what they were being told as the Purser/Senior/Whatever was too busy acting the clown and making people laugh.

Incidently M, postings on Jet Blast are not meant to be taken entirely seriously. That's what it's there for. :ok: Funny how many people agreed with what I said tho. Including you on occasion. The thread was commenced at a low point in my life when I felt like venting some steam. As for calling me mysogynist, who is it that has an inflight magazine entitled 'Voyeur'?

:{

RTA, I would say that the vast majority of ex-AN people don't hold DJ responsible for ANs' downfall. I am certainly not one of them and I cant recall speaking with anyone who expressed such an opinion. I understand that VB has built up a huge mythology based around Ansett, its staff and the reasons for its downfall. None of what I have heard in this regard is very accurate.

[Capt Snooze]

Ninja,

A finely crafted little piece of dissembling there.

‘I remember when they were secondhand plane salesmen with less than the best reputation. They also did not start National Jet. A company called National Airlines ran an old G1 freighter out of their offices.’

Just to set the record slightly straighter, one of the people you are referring to had many years in aircraft sales. The other was, for a brief period, employed by the business as a financial controller. National Airlines did run a G1 freighter, and subsequently a B727 freighter out of the same offices, primarily because the management and ownership were essentially the same as that of the sales organisation. National Jet was initially a joint venture between National Airlines and Jet Systems, so it is not inaccurate to describe the owners and employees of National Airlines as being amongst the founders of National Jet. There were some apparent synergies behind the concept, but ultimately the National Airlines holdings were sold to the interests behind Jet Systems. The G1 and B727 operation remained with National Airlines and its successors.

They were interesting times...............................

Absolutely nothing to do with the main topic of the thread of course. :ok: :ok:




Snooze

[sinala1]

RTA, I would say that the vast majority of ex-AN people don't hold DJ responsible for ANs' downfall

Personally I have a lot of friends who are ex-AN, and their consistent bitterness towards me whenever the subject of work comes up is nothing short of rephrensible... The vast majority of ex-AN people that I interact with do hold DJ responsible for the collapse, although I also respect that they are only a relatively small cross section of ex-AN staff....

[Spotlight]

Capt Snooze, your not wrong abount it being interesting times.
'Non union' americans crewing the 72 with a non rated aussie in the jump seat to moniter (advise) on procedural matters.

CAA SA head on leave submitting applications and gaining approval for Jet ops and all manner of other things from his deputy filling the chair. Oh yes, and the deputy left the CAA for a lucrative position with said company as soon as the ink was dry.

One of the greater untold scandals!

[Binoculars]

Kaptin M,

At the risk of boring everybody else, I've asked myself the same question you posed about innate conservativeness, and I too often wonder where it comes from. All I can say is that some things should be treated more conservatively than others and perhaps anything to do with air safety is one of those things. I'm not at all sure I agree with you about the ability of the "let's all have lots of fun" cabin crew when the **** hits the fan.

Regardless, appearances tend to be self-perpetuating, and I have to agree with those who suggest that the shallower the presentation, the less respect the presenter will get when it is really required. Perhaps a grossly unfair generalisation, I grant you.

Your question though has made me think and posed a possible thread in JB. Cheers! :ok:

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Of all the ex-AN employees that I could be bothered talking to, MOST, if not 90% hold DJ responsible directly for the downfall of AN.

Not Abeles and Murdoch's ineptitude, greed, and zealousness...

Jedda! Nice to see some culture. Tukhes oyfn tisch. Schweinhundt regards all DJ FA's as shikse, and he needs a good shtup... :ok:

Oy vey!

[air-hag]

"Most if not 90%"....... HAHAHAHAAAA!!! :ok: nice one...

Did you mean "Most (90%), if not all..." ?? Hey just trying to help you with your English comprehension RTA.

I gave you a subtle hint but you were so intent on your yiddish howlings you couldn't see it. Now everyone can. Oh well...

Anyway that bit of "kulcha" you refer to could get one into a lot of trouble. No wonder there's so much strife in the world with clowns like you confusing all the issues and language hang-ups and then blaming it on the other party...

Go to the Yiddish forum and confuse them over there because you obviously can't speak it properly and you're causing trouble around here.

Anyway can you tell us what your tool-ish statements about --most if not 90% of ex blah blah blame who for what-- has to do with this disgraceful discrimination case? Other than that they are both disgraceful???

Let's have less Yiddish crap and more info on how these ladies are doing with their court case. Why do I have to be the one to point this out???



And who is Binoss to "risk boring everyone" else like that??? Very inconsiderate, I say. Still he has his thread-topic for JB. I guess that's what makes some folks' world go round. :rolleyes:

Anyway, good to have you back on an even keel ( :8 ) again, Beanoss! :\



edited to TRY to keep the whinging Yidds happy and also TRY to show RTA why he sounds so much like a bonehead. Halas.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Hag,

You don't read and comprehend too well now do you? I said 90% of the AN former employees I KNOW.... that's maybe 14 people or so (I know a lot of others, but they are ghosts - you know what I am referring to). I am not saying 90% of the ENTIRE former AN employees. SHEESH!

Culture. Well, you see, it's not badly mispelt arabic. It's Yiddish. Look it up! You were closer to the mark with your second dribble.

Who are YOU trying to fool is more the question. I am not trying to fool anyone. You obviously have, and have demonstrated that, YOU had NO COMPREHENSION of what was written (on all 3 counts), yet you felt compelled to once again open trap, insert foot, chew the ****e on the bottom of the shoe, then spit out the excrement. Bravo putz!

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Hag,
And you have offered WHAT exactly?????????????????????????

Thought so.

[griffinblack]

I think some posters here have a point. Some employers do have a right choose not to comply with legislation such as anti discrimination legislation. I think Branson should ignore harassment legislation. That way Air Hag and his trolley dolly mincer mates could be called anything various punters wish to call him. Furthermore, the vacuous hosties could be “chatted up”, patted on the bottom and leered at. After all legislation just gets in the way of good business sense.

On another note – I have no doubt discrimination occurs up front (for all airlines) – how many 40 year old boggys do you find?

[ROCKSTEADY]

So if a modeling agency is looking for an Asian to sell a particular product, is that discrimination?

[sinala1]

How about the American Airline "Hooters"??

What if I applied to them (I am male) and was knocked back - one could presume it was on the basis that I did not have the required "hooters", could I sue them for discrimination?

The fact is, they have a particular product that they want to sell, which clearly I am not suitable for! (although I have been known to put on the odd bra occasionally... :eek: just kidding!!! :E )

[air-hag]

Is a lack of tits included in the list of of Anti-Discrimination provisions? I don't think so. If your man-boobs are big enough you should be alright at Hooters but don't expect much in tips, otherwise don't waste everyone's time.

Meanwhile try reading this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=141490) regarding your "accidental" confession on wearing a woman's clothing. :yuk:

No MINCING thanks.... :ouch: keep it to yourself.

[sinala1]

Thanks for that air-hag... an enlightening and thrilling piece of reading that was boundless in its value to me! :ok:

Now back to the point. I was making a valid point - Hooters are marketing a particular product - and thus, they should be allowed to employ who is most suitable for their product type...

(And no I dont mince thanks, the man boobs (last time I checked) were still north of the equator (ie waist) and as far as womens clothing goes, well the only interaction I have with it is when I females ask me to remove it from their bodies - but lets get back to the point of the thread hey!!!!!)

(edited for clarity)

[SydGirl]

RTA well the 90% of ex AN employees that you KNOW only represent probably less than 0.001% of ex AN employees.

So do you really think your comments are a true reflection of what ex AN employees (of which I am one) think?

Personally, I don't hold Virgin Blue responsible for AN's demise in any way shape or form. They (VB) are an airline out to make a buck, and unfortunately AN could not compete. End of story.

There is a lot more to AN's fall than VB's entry to the market. Anyone who can't see that is walking around with blinkers on.


SG
:D

Anyway back to the topic...

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

SydGirl,
No, it is not a representative cross section of "thought" within ex-AN crew. It is merely a personal OBSERVATION of a small sampling of former AN pilots.

[SydGirl]

Well I can tell ya right now that your small sampling (14) of former AN pilots definitely do not represent the thoughts of the rest of the organisation. An observation it may be, but its results are not indicitive of the true feelings within the company (or ex-company).

Anyway to get back to the original topic.. it is true that VB can hire who they want, when they want, but they DO need to abide by state and federal anti discrimination legislations. So really they need to hire a variety of different kinds of people. It is a shame that VB does not appear to recognise the amazing skills, talents and abilities of those that do not fit the Virgin mold (or is that "mould"? Where's my spell checker) - they may find some hidden gems out there.

Hope the ex-AN crew have a successful resolution.

SG
:D

[EPIRB]

I can understand the bitterness from former AN staff when some of the Virgin flight attendants were standing around cheering in the AN terminal in BNE in front of AN staff when the company fell over. The QF flight attendants formed a guard of honour for the AN ones. And then there was the former AN staffer who went for an interview at Virgin who was told to make up a song about Ansett's demise and perform it! (He walked out). And weren't there Virgin parties to celebrate the collapse? Is it any some wonder people are bitter?

[Dexter]

sum of youse needs to move on with yore life EPIRB an get over it insted of wollowing at what happens in the past.

[Dehavillanddriver]

To my knowledge there were no parties to celebrate the demise of Ansett.

There was some relief that the future for Virgin looked more secure though - but that is not the same as being pleased that Ansett went arse up.

The people in Virgin are exactly the same as the people in Ansett - people. They are different to the corporate entity that was/is each company and they are (mostly) loyal to the organisation that puts the money into their account each pay.

There are many ex Ansett people in Virgin now and they seem to be happy.

[Anflygirl]

I am one of those 8 ex AN hosties you are all talking about. Fact: we did reject an out of court settlement. Fact: we did do the song and dance (reported in one newspaper that we refused) Fact: At the time of lodgement DJ DID NOT HAVE ONE FA over the age of 42 (stats as furnished by DJ themselves) Fact: If DJ will make a public apology we do not want any payment Fact:We received no payment from A Current Affair Fact: I am flying with another airline full time.
I think that some of you are missing the point. This is Australia and we have anti-discrimination laws to prevent this sort of thing. As said earlier in this forum, one day these 20+ year olds will be 40. Do they honestly believe that will no longer be capable of doing their jobs because they have character lines?

[go_dj]

Anflygirl

Just had a look at a previous post of yours and am trying to
figure out why you would have applied to DJ in the first place.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111572

Anflygirl wrote:

Sorry, but I just cant resist this one!!! Having been a very regular DJ flyer for the last 4 months (which I can assure you is only for financial reasons) I have a plethora of stories. Like a few others in this thread I am soooo sick of the same jokes. If I hear one more about Brisvegas and its two high rises and 1 street light I shall scream. Do they need to be reminded that it was only because of "Brisvegas" and the subsidies the Qld govt paid them that they are in business today.
Last Sundays flight took the cake though. On our 1hr 50min flight the Cabin Manager cared so much about our inflight health that she had her crew line up in their demonstration positions and do in flight aerobics!!! Yes everyone, she actually got onto the PA and told the passengers to do "butt clenches" just as her crew were doing. Naturally I screeched with laughter thinking this was one of their inflight "jokes", but alas it wasnt. Needless to say I was mortified and if it had been humanly possible I would have removed myself from the aircraft. I too was subjected to a crew members birthday as we were all asked to sing Brandon "Happy birthday". I am sure I dont need to point out that Brandon did not receive birthday wishes from me.
I have plenty more stories but shall save them for another time. I must admit though, every time I fly with DJ I come away with another truly hilarious story that I share with as many people as possible. Keep up the good work Virgin Blue!!

[CallButton]

Corrr, good one go_dh!

Good use of the search function. (Bit of a long bow though to see what relevance it has...)

[schweinhund]

Well, there you all have it. Right from the horses mouth. Go DJ, you should work directly for Mark Latham coming out with that crap. Politics and semantics.

Did it occur to you that maybe Anflygirl might have wanted to improve the level of professionalism amongst the VB cabin crew? Before you tell me that they already are, don't bother. There are enough tales of woe with these fools to suggest otherwise.

Fact is, VB have broken our country's anti discrimination laws. Whether those laws are right or wrong, which seems to be much of the argument here, is irrelevant. They are our laws, and VB have broken them. Hope they do get a punitive penalty, because they deserve it.

Don't listen to these clowns, Anflygirl. Stick to your guns and make 'em pay.

[Anflygirl]

In reference to go_dj, if you knew the facts you would realise that our case was filed over 2 years ago. My humorous accounts of subsequent flights happened will after the filing date. As I said in my previous posting I flew with them purely for financial reasons and as was pointed out to you, that is an incredible long shot and has absolutely no bearing on what is being said in this thread. I still stand by the fact that that particular flight was a joke.

[Kaptin M]

SchweinhundFact is, VB have broken our country's anti discrimination laws. So YOU are judge and jury in this case, SH - you could have saved the F/A's association and VB significant court costs with your obviously superior legal knowledge :rolleyes:
Now SIT and STAY!

I believe the point that go_dj is trying to make, is that Anyflygirl showed quite anti-Virgin Blue sentiments, when she made that PUBLIC post on 16th December 2003, and also indicated that SHE would find it extremely difficult - if not IMPOSSIBLE - to carry out what was required of her, should she have been selected as an F/A with VB......"Needless to say I was mortified and if it had been humanly possible I would have removed myself from the aircraft."
If DJ will make a public apology we do not want any payment A public apology for WHAT?
According to VB, you weren't selected because of YOUR performance - and whom would you expect to make any apology?? ALL of the people involved in the selection process?

Because Australia has anti-discrimination laws that doesn't mean they HAVE to take the oldies who apply - it simply means that at selection time, all applications have to be assessed without undue emphasis on age.
And for the record, a couple of years ago, my son applied for a position in the Q'ld police force - after having gone through days of various tests he was told that he should apply at a future date, after he had "more experience in life".

Maybe you ladies have TOO MUCH "experience in (another) life" in the selection committee's opinion! :D

[Anflygirl]

Good point Kaptin M. Maybe we do have too much experience for DJ but the other airlines in this country dont appear to think so. The fact of the matter is that DJ did not a single flight attendant over the age of 42 the day we filed. Out of 803 fa's they had 4 only aged between 38 - 42. This is most definitely not the case now. They have been employing over 40's hand over fist for the last 6 plus months. Doesnt that tell even you something.

[DirectAnywhere]

I've been away for four days.

I can't believe this topic still has the legs it does!!!!

[air-hag]

I thought they had a marketing image that came first??

Oh well, another victim of political correctness. These 8 morals-crusaders who don't even seem to actually want the job can rest easy in the knowledge they have pushed their own ideals on someone else.

Even if they lose the court action, they've pushed VB into going against their "winning formula". Well done ladies.

Always amazes me how people will push their way into someplace they are clearly not wanted. Did it occur to you that maybe Anflygirl might have wanted to improve the level of professionalism amongst the VB cabin crew? And that was right from the horses arse. Did you almost convince yourself of the validity of THAT statement before you hit "SUBMIT" ??

You hear it all the time: The punters believe hostying is a young girls' game. Unless you happen to be a boiler (or married to one). An old duck is no more experienced at opening an emergency exit than a 20-something because it really isn't something that happens everyday.

And VB obviously aren't selling "distinguished and Mum's home-made" service.

[Anflygirl]

Oh Air-hag. You poor bitter twisted individual.

[Ralph the Bong]

In fairness, Air-Hag, there is a little more to safety issues and capabilities than being able to open the exit. I can recall off the top of my head 2 dangerous good incidents that were averted because the FAs involved had a certain amount of experience and street-wisdom which enabled them to read the situation. This kind of rat-cunning only comes from being around a while and should be seen as good reason to have employment conditions that support any desire to stay as FA's in the industry as long as the individual wishes to. Even to the point where they are no longer young and pretty but old and beautiful. :E


Go-dj, I would also like to make a general point out that Anflygirls and the other 7 have made a case based on alleged discrimination that occured some 2 years ago. This was made at a time when they were enthusiastic in their attitude regarding employemnt at VB. Had they been given a shot at the job back then, there is now reason why they would not have made constructive and valued employees at DJ.

I hope Brandon enjoyed his "Happy Birthday", after all, turning 21 IS a special day...

[Anflygirl]

I am fully loving you Ralph the bong. So eloquent and spot on in your deducing. Thank you :)

[air-hag]

Well okay, I agree with Ralph the Boing.


Solution:

Why not have one airline for boilers.... (Qantas),

one airline for vapid, buxom, horny young bimboids...... (Virgin) and

one for the ugly birds, horses-hooves, mothers, grand-mothers, cripples, non-English-speakers (how can they discriminate on that???) and "others"........... (Jetscar) ???

Won't this keep everyone happy?

Since qantas owns Jetster it shouldn't be hard to tee up between them and VB can just keep doing what they were doing.

Everyone's a winner!!!...... :ok:

[Kaptin M]

Anyflygirl wrote: - Out of 803 fa's they had 4 only aged between 38 - 42. This is most definitely not the case now. They have been employing over 40's hand over fist for the last 6 plus months. Doesnt that tell even you something.The public perception of Virgin - the British parent company of Virgin Blue - was of an airline that employed youngish, blonde, Caucasian women as F/A's, and I believe that this was also how many Australians imagined the mould of VB F/A's would be.
That being the case, there were probably quite a number of prospective hopefuls who discounted THEMSELVES - and hence simply didn't apply.
I can only guess that many other females now realise that VB have NOT recruited on that basis, and that as they have grown it has become apparent that the features of their F/A's are as diverse as those of the general Oz population, and that an increasing number of applicants have felt more confident of applying, and being accepted.
I think there's a lot of "shadow boxing" as far as you ladies are concerned - you, YOURSELVES, have merely perceived that you were not accepted because of age/not being blonde/ not leggy/didn't sing well enough....etc.

Now the anti-discrimination laws raise a few interesting points. Below is an extract from an employment application of an airline that states the following:-
Equal Opportunities
In its treatment of staff and its consideration of candidates for employment, xxxxx is committed to a policy of non-discrimination on the grounds of an individual's sex, sexual orientation, age, marital status, disability, religion, creed, race, colour and national or ethnic origin. You do not have to complete this section of the form, however, in order to effectively monitor our equal opportunities policy it would help us to have the following information from you. This information will not be used as part of the selection process. This section merely asks for marital status!!!

However, prior to this, the application requests the following:-
Personal Details
Title
Mr. Ms.

Your Name
First Name xxxxxMiddle Name xxxxx Last Name xxxxx


Date of Birth (dd/mm/yyyy)

Age
Years xx Months xx

Nationality xxxxx

IF the applications are to be truly non-discriminatory, should not ALL of the above be excluded, and any interviews done behind a curtain - or better yet, with the applicant's lawyer attending in lieu?
IMO, this would be the ONLY way to TRULY achieve total non-discrimination.
Otherwise, the law is an ass!!

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Straight from the horses somewhere that is for sure!

So, you failed the Dj interview. Instantly, you and your other boilers decide it MUST be because of your age. Right. Great assumption. LET'S SUE, GIRLS!

Christ, what a load of horse pats! Have you actually seen the interviewer's "score card" and notes? No, I am sure you haven't. Judging by your previous remarks and those here, by heck, I don't think you DO have the credentials Virgin is looking for for THEIR COMPANY.

I once again find myself agreeing with Air-Hag to a certain degree. Oy vey :ok:

Discrimination my damned foot sorry! PROVE it.

Australia sure is becoming USA No2... by golly, I'll sue!

[lokione]

RTA check your email!!

[Anflygirl]

RTA, settle sweet pea. Prove it you say. We are you fool, thats what this little court case is all about. I wrote this very slowly for you because I am sure that you dont read too fast.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Fool, maybe, but not an attention seeker...

You have opened a can of worms you cannot hope to ever close.

There will be NO tangible evidence - just emotions, hear-say, and slander. Their word against yours.

In big words - HOW CAN YOU PROVE, WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, THAT YOU AND YOURS WERE REJECTED ON AGE? Come on, tell us HOW! You don't have to go into the details I am sure you are going to use in court. Did one interviewer lean over and say "Sorry dear, you are too old"?

Again, it seems all too much a media stunt.

Call me a fool all you want; I have big shoulders (goes with the mass). I won't go crying to the courts that you defamed me.

So, were / are you a Dixie Chicken or an Reg's Boiler?

[Oz Ocker]

C'mon sweetie lets cut thru' the cr@p. This aint about Virgin Blue discriminatin' against you and the other chooks because youse were too old is it.
It's about youse tryin to force Virgin Blue to take ya on because of yer age - or at least ta try ta get some moolah out of 'em.

What's the bettin that on the day youse looked around at all the lovely young things, an in the way that wimmen do the cattyness and jealousy flaired inside ya because yer thought to yerselves "How can we old chooks compete with these stunners?".
Be honest girls. I means ta say what are the other sheilas who failed gunna do? Sue 'em because they reckon VB think their ugly?

Be seein' youse round. :ok:

[jedda]

Anflygirl,
I trained one of your number back when, and distinctly remember asking,when meal service had ended, said person go back to cabin and do P.R. The reply was "I'm not going to talk to someone I don't know". May I suggest D.J. picked up this attitude in the interview?!

If you wish to see what REAL OLD BOILERS are all about, come to
a Down to Earth lunch; WE OLD BOILERS have Class.

Think back to the "conditions" of employment that AN hired you under initially.

[cabin secure]

I flew with Anflygirl at Ansett and with her at her current airline.
Not only is she drop dead gorgeous (and numerous very young pilots would agree. Her age never seemed to deter them knocking on her door on overnights), she has a dynamic personality and very much a "can do" attitude. Her ability to motivate people is second to none, and I am very proud to call her my friend.
You gentlemen ( used because I was initially employed in the airline industry, when pilots were gentlemen) seem to forget the likes of Elle Macpherson, Claudia Schiffer, Nicole Kidman, Kylie Minogue, Princess Caroline, Sandra Bullock, Andie Macdowell, Demi Moore ....and the list goes on.
By my definition not old boilers but all in my age bracket.
Age does not always make a woman unattractive.
These girls are not demanding Virgin employ women over 35 they are asking that they employ a cross section of age groups.
So let's not turn this into a slanging match and focus on the facts.
I was rejected 3 times before finally being accepted.

[bush mechanics]

Im happy if the FA's are smilling and friendly,I dont care how old she is.MILF!!!!

[Sky_hi!]

A small agency who I work for that hires promotional girls for various events has lost 33 girls to Virgin Blue in the last 3 years. All these girls are in the 18-25 age bracket. She hates VB because they 'poach all her staff.'

If that is anything to go by than its true, VB are age-ist. But as RTA has said, How can you prove you were rejected on age?

An interesting topic I must say!

[hoss]

Wow, I've been offline for a week or so and look at what I've been missing out on.

My two bucks worth, Best wishes to the ladies with your case and I sincerely hope it goes in your favour. I would much rather see one of you welcoming me onboard than most of the current VB FA's:) .

I could go on with why I think you are the perfect choices for the positions but then you might think I'm a naughty little boy;) .

Give em heaps, hoss:)

[Desert Dingo]

All these girls are in the 18-25 age bracket. She hates VB because they 'poach all her staff.'
What? No older people on her staff? Seems like this small agency is discriminating on the basis of age. Sue them I say! :E

[sinala1]

Touche Desert Dingo, touche! :ok:

The question I have, as has been already posted here but not answered (understandably possibly due to these facts being needed in court) is on what factual basis these claims are based? Someone has already said that at the time these girls applied there was no crew older than a certain age (I cant recall exactly what it was), but is that enough to base a claim on? As someone else already said here, unless they were told "yes you would be great for the job, but sorry you are too old" then I am struggling to think on what basis their claim is based?

This is a genuine question by the way, not a dig at the complainants...

Its interesting to note that Gulf Air have just announced they are accepting applications for Flight Attendants. Following is a quote directly from the Gulf Air Website (http://www.gulfairco.com):
If you are female and interested in joining Gulf Air as a Flight Attendant please apply now

Now if THATS not basis for a discrimnation case, I dont know what is. But, they are in the UAE, where we all know laws etc are different. But clearly that is direct and in-disputable discrimination based on sex - whereas there has been no factual evidence provided (to the readers of this forum anyway) that Virgin Blue did not employ these applicants based 100% solely on their age.

(edited to include Gulf Air comments, as this was discovered after initial post was made)

[Boney]

Saying that there was only x amount of FA's over the age of X at a certain date is certainly not something you can base a case on but is definately an indication of what is really going on.

I am surprised more drivers are not in support of these FA's. Lets face it, it is probably only about 15 years since drivers over 30 were considered too old for the Airlines full stop. And this driver age discrimination still goes on a reasonable amount, although not much at Virgin I believe. Just ask any driver over about 32 that does not have 5,000hrs. and a space shuttle endorsement.

I don't get it.

Why is it OK to be 23 with 1,000hrs.TT, 250 twin but if you are say, over 30 with 2,000TT, 500 twin, often you are considered resume not competitive or some other legally neutral comment.

All other things being equal, what's the difference? The only thing not competitive is the ink on the date of birth part of your resume.

We have a guy at work who got his CPL a couple of years back at 36. His former experence was driving large earth moving equipment, which he still does cause he gets paid so much in GA. His flying skills are excellent and his general approach to all things mechanical/managerial etc. etc. is better than most. But it all don't mean jack $hit to the airlines, because he aint 25.

Good luck girls

[Gnadenburg]

Cabin Secure

Did she open the door?

Not a door knocker but must agree there were a few alluring BNE senior ladies.

[cabin secure]

Gnadenburg

I'm like the three wise monkeys!
I see no evil!
Speak no evil!
Hear no evil!

You'll have to ask her yourself!:D

[Kaptin M]

Not only is she drop dead gorgeous (and numerous very young pilots would agree. Her age never seemed to deter them knocking on her door on overnights), she has a dynamic personality and very much a "can do" attitude. Her ability to motivate people is second to none, and I am very proud to call her my friend. But who said that any of those attributres were what VB were looking for?
These girls are not demanding Virgin employ women over 35 they are asking that they employ a cross section of age groups. Hang on a minute - they are APPLICANTS for employment - since when have applicants been able to dictate WHOM the company should employ.
No offence meant - and purely for example - but to take this to the ridiculous (which it does seem it is, anyway) - are redheads/brunetttes/bald/short/fat/tall people all going to demand that each group is represented?

As I stated earlier on, the ONLY real measure of assuring absolute non-discrimination is to make application to a "non-discrimination" company using a neutral gender name - no birth dates/age and gender supplied - and have someone attend the interview for you...in fact, have the same person be the spokesperson for ALL the applicants.
That, imho, would then mean the selection committee would have to choose the applicant SOLELY on merit, and that they wouldn't see (or hear) whom they were getting until the start of training.

As Oz ocker stated, this court case appears to have been instigated because,It's about youse (sic) tryin to force Virgin Blue to take ya on because of yer age

[VH-Cheer Up]

I was told by one female VBer they were "advised" on their course to wear a certain type of underwear when flying so as to best show off their assets.

She seemed a bit piqued but it appeared honest...

Anyone else know of the VB unwritten G-string policy?

[sinala1]

Without being rude, whats the relevance of that question to the topic?

[POOKEY]

Thank God for tech log !!!!!!!!!

[Groaner]

As we all know, most aircraft don't crash - almost all FAs end their career not actually having to deal with an emergency. What they do have to deal with, every day, is the pax. And VB is looking for a service attitude - safety procedures can after all can be taught.

They much prefer candidates who have experience as nurses and teachers (used to caring for people...). I think VB believes it enhances the quality of the pax's flight.

[yellow rocket]

one airline for vapid, buxom, horny young bimboids...... (Virgin)

Anyone who can remember the Cabin Prep drill, Evacuation drill, and the 5 different Initial and Evacuation command drills IS NO BIMBOID.

An interesting topic because if it walks, talks, and looks like a duck...I do sympathise with these women, and the men also out there who may feel the same.

Tony Marks, CEO of Pacific Blue, makes an important point though:

"We don't prevent people from performing a song or dance during the interviews, but it is not a requirement," he said.

Just in case you've missed it again there is NO REQUIREMENT to do a 'song and dance' at a Virgin interview. The task is for each group to make up an advertisement or destination promotion for Virgin/Pacific Blue. How people do it is up to them, but many people CHOOSE, without prompting, to turn it into a song and dance number. If the participants CHOOSE to make it a song and dance, then there will obviously be some who shine, and some who don't. But, equally, some may have done better in the other activities.

The role of Flight Attendant is just not as appealing to many as it used to be, and anyone who goes to assessment days nowadays will be able to tell you that the majority of applicants are in their 20s and late teens. For many the job has unfortunately become a gap filler before uni, or after. Those of us who have 'the bug' are becoming fewer. Those who want to make it a career do so at the expense of financial security or the likelihood of ever owning their own home.

"They (Qantas) were extremely professional and they asked me things that were extremely relevant," she said.

Having had panel interviews with both DJ and QF, I found them quite comparable, with the Virgin interview being far more intense, and slightly interrogatory.

The only difference ultimately, was that the job Virgin advertised came through, whereas the job Qantas shortlisted me for, was a complete fabrication.

Now who's the more professional recruiter?

[schweinhund]

Who is more impartial here? It sure as hell aint you, yellow rocket.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Messen Zeit für Bett jetzt Schweinhund. Es gibt einen guten Jungen.

When you are grown up enough to admit WHY you have such a vehement hatred of DJ, please let us all know. Meanwhile, your purility is rather tedious.


Gute Nacht mein voreingenommener Freund.

[schweinhund]

Don't bother calling me friend, RTA, 'cos I'm not. Go back to the carpark, d1ckhead.

[hoss]

have to laugh at how this is evolving into a Deutsch thread:) .

Tja, ich muss jetzt leider gehen.

Tschus, hoss:)

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Alle kommen jetzt zurück, hören Sie! :p

Only insulting him in German so no one else get's offended.

[*Lancer*]

Employ a cross section of ages?? Where do you draw the line? An equal number of 18 year olds as there are 50 year olds? How do you work out the proportions of the demographic without being disciminatory to any one group?

You can't!

There will ALWAYS be discrimination in every part of our society... whether it is legal or not depends on what the status quo is. It seems that this case is attepting to create positive discrimination rather than reverse negative discrimination.

As for remembering prep drill, evac, and 5 aircraft... it's not the rocket science so many make it out to be. :rolleyes:

[yellow rocket]

I find it quite a challenge to remember a drill that says I should launch life rafts if fitted BEFORE opening useable exits.

[SydGirl]

Let's be real for just a moment gentlemen.

Virgin Blue's advertising, marketing and employment tactics are so very obviously geared towards the young 20ish attractive female with great hair and a nice smile. Just take one look at the Virgin Blue billboards around Sydney domestic airport and you will see not one person over 30 smiling back at you.

This is not to say that they don't hire anyone over 30, but I sure as hell haven't seen one!

I wish the ex-Ansett crew the best of luck - maybe this will be just the kick in the bum DJ needs to start recognising the skills and abilities of those who don't fit into the stereotypical DJ image.

SG
:}

PS. For the record, I don't understand a word of German.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

S'roit Sydgirl, that is why I do it - to offend less people who read.

If DJ wants THAT image, then it is their perrogative.

If airlines didn't have a certain criteria, I am sure we would see 4ft FA's, 120 KG FA's, Dyslexic FA's, and cross-dressing FA's.

Where do you want to draw the discrimination line guys?

[Ralph the Bong]

RTA, adoptation of a certain image may be a perogative, however compliance with the law is a responsibility.

EEO laws are designed to protect the public from practices that are percieved to be unethical. These laws applie to companies that are over a certain size. By recollection, it applies if the business employs more than 15 people.

There are situations where exemptions exist from the provisions of EEO legislation; it is entirely permissable to hire Asian models to market Chinese food or to have only females working in a womans' refuge.

Without knowing the details of the 8 woman's case, my gut feeling is that VB did not want to hire them based on several criteria:

1) They were perceived to be too old for the required VB marketing image.

2) They were ex-AN and probably embued with the Ansett cultural approach.

3) They may have been percieved by VB recruitment to be too intellegent, assertive and aware of their industrial rights.

I fully recognise the subjectivity that I am applying in this instance, however I base this upon the following facts and rumours:

a) Fact: VB Flight operations decided that it not employ any pilots on the Alex Patterson 'scab' list. A group of pilots on this list notified VB that they intended legal action alleging discrimination on grounds of political and industrial affiliation. Subsequently, a small group of pilots(who were considered to be not too dirty) on this list were hired. This move would 'prove' that Virgin were not discriminating against pilots on the list.

b) Fact: Some ex-AN flight attendants were hired by VB over the last few years. It was made clear to one/some/many/all( I am not going to say what I know) that any pro-Ansett talk was 'discouraged' at VB and would have 'consequences'.

c) Fact: Group of VB staff came into the AN terminal at BNE on Sept 12, 2001. A person on duty there at the time told me that they had the attitude of those who had come to gloat.

d) Rumour: Senior people at VB organised a party to celebrate ANs' demise.

e) Rumour: Management at VB tell new staff a load of bollocks about AN. This is done so as to develop a certain corporate culture at VB.

And others..too many to mention..

The above facts and rumours and other things that I have experienced and/or heard about VB lead me to feel that the 8 woman were simply not welcome at VB for a variety of reasons. Only reason 1) infringes the law.

Fact a), above, shows that VB has a history of being caught out on the discrimination allegation and will then move to employ certain people so as to look good. To me, this shows laughable desperation and is a defacto admission of guilt.

Yellow Rocket, I hate to tell you this, but drills of the complexity of the 7 that you describe can be successfully taught to anyone with an IQ above 75.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Ralph,
Good points indeed, but....

Yes, disciminating against age is illegal, if the person is deemed to be capable, EXCEPT for the age. At the same time, discrimination based on OTHER factors - cultural, psychological, physical etc are equally as discriminatory!

Let's put it bluntly - if you had a candidate female FA that was EMINENTLY qualified, had the personality of a godess, the body of a super model, was the right age, but was just danged FUGLY to look at, would ANY airline SERIOUSLY employ them? SERIOUSLY? IMAGE! It's discimination just as much as being ageist.

We do NOt know why these 8 FA's were rejected by Dj. They ASSUME, repeat ASSUME, it is based on their age.

We all know that assume means "Makes and ass out of You to me"

[Kaptin M]

As they have been on television, and received quite a bit of media attention in Oz, apparently, is there a chance that someone might list the names of the ladies involved, merely out of curiosity for the ex-AN staff (esp. those of us o/s)?

[Binoculars]

Nice one KM! Always with an eye for the mature ladies!

And since I am unlikely to know any of them by name, how about some photos please? :E

(Err, yes I know girls. It's irony.... I'm not sexist at all)

[Buster Hyman]

:rolleyes: Not another list Kaptin!!!:p ;)

[air-hag]

Anyone who can remember the Cabin Prep drill, Evacuation drill, and the 5 different Initial and Evacuation command drills IS NO BIMBOID. Yeah that's right up there with heart surgery and quantum physics... :rolleyes:

I can teach my dog those drills. I've shaved his arse but he hasn't quite learnt to walk backward. When I think he's ready I'm sending him in for the interview. :}

By the way he has something in common with yellow rocket but his is red.






why would anyone use a prune-handle after a shlong?

[Pinky the pilot]

Binos; Nothing wrong with the mature Ladies! I (ahem) appreciate 'em m'self.:ok:
Pass the photos along to me when you're finished with them, would you?:E

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Weapons_Hot]

Gaunty

Sorry for not responding sooner, but have been totally self-indulgent committing aviation, for the last week.

As for "winding back the odometer" - if you are referring to a vehicle, a la my BAPOS Toyota Hi-Lux, I can recommend the likes of the "Dodgy Bros", or in the case of something infinately more complex whose chasis was designed for speed, but regrettably, is now accommodatingly more luxurious than initially intended, may I suggest the "Nip and Tuck" man, under Cosmetic Sugeons, in any good Yellow Pages. ;)

[yellow rocket]

air-hag

I've shaved his arse but he hasn't quite learnt to walk backward.

I guess he knows you're standing behind him.

[Anflygirl]

RTA wrote:


If anirlines didn't have a certain criteria, I am sure we would see 4ft FA's, 120 KG FA's, Dyslexic FA's, and cross-dressing FA's

Correct me if I am wrong but this sounds like a few of the pilots I know and I still enjoy working with them. Now, your point would be ..............?

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

My point merely is that ALL airlines have a set criterion for Flight Attendants, as do most HOSPITALITY establishments.

As I am sure you are well aware, pilots fall into yet another category, where looks, height etc are all secondary.

[The Enema Bandit]

Except if you want to fix up a flight attendant.....

[*Lancer*]

Anflygirl,

You may not have a problem with it, but do the passengers?

[Chimbu chuckles]

I hear that ex AN staff are very unpopular at Jetstar...non stop whinging about how much better AN was etc.

Perhaps VB doesn't want their 'can do' staff attitude 'infected' anymore by ex AN staff who live in the past....as seems to be happening at other places.

Certainly I hear a LOT of bad press towards ex AN pilots scattered around Asia and the ME.

Not saying it's all by any means but a significant % seem to be making it very hard for the rest.

And to reiterate...I'M NOT SAYING ALL BUT A SIGNIFICANT % SEEM TO BE MAKING IT HARD FOR THE REST!!!

[Anflygirl]

Just to re-iterate. This is not about Ansett and has nothing to do with Ansett. What ex pilots and FA's say and do has nothing to do with this case. It was filed within weeks of Ansetts collapse so any airlines opinion of ex AN staffers is quite irrelevant. Those opinions have been formed long after this was started. If any ex AN have caused trouble in other airlines, that is on their own heads, not ours. Please dont continue along this line as it is totally baseless. Continue with the bashing of old girls if you must but if you knew any of us I think that alot of you would change your opinion about that also. As hard as it will be for most of you to imagine, we are actually quite nice people.

[Gnadenburg]

Chimbu

You have a bit of a thing for ex-Ansett.

When I ventured abroad, I heard similar moanings about ex-AN, and for that matter ex-TAA pilots displaced in 89.

If you stick to the facts, history and the industry will probably judge them pretty well. Considering they make up senior line and management positions in some pretty desirable airlines.

Airlines that employed contemporary exAN pilots and then lost them inside of 12 months may not view them highly. That they were taken elsewhere must mean they are not all that bad.

I have heard the horror stories of a few aswell. Funnily, this small band where expected to make waves and were DH's at AN.

Ex AN F/A's have been well received from my sources. But then again, I don't like to pick on girls!:p

Except maybe the tacky girls at VB.:}

[Chimbu chuckles]

Unfortunately its impossible to read 'tone' in a written post...I'm NOT having an ex AN employees rant, my sister is one for god's sake...she was there over 10 years.

As I said in my previous post...not all...perhaps I've only been exposed to those few of which you speak.

Just curious that's all...I have heard some amazing things said in the cockpit by ex AN people.

[Z Force]

Well what's been said?

[SydGirl]

Chimbu,

Not really fair that you tar all ex AN staff with the same "live in the past" brush.

Perhaps some of your pilot colleagues may do so, but pilots are but a small group of the large number of employees of AN.

Anflygirl is not bringing Ansett into the issue of discrimination. The case is being fought on the basis of age. EEO laws are there to protect the public from discrimination, either direct or INDIRECT. DJ can have whatever public image it likes, but EEO prevents them from only employing those from whatever "master race" it chooses.

Good luck Anflygirl :)

SG
:E

[air-hag]

This discrimination line is a complete load of dogs dollocks.

Go to coles and buy a loaf of bread. You will have to discriminate between many types and brands. Only one might get your hard-earned $$$. You have this right to choose.

In a dream-world VB have the right to choose which flavour they want to spend their $$$ on and most people agree the sweet juicy younger ones taste better.

[Obie]

...and Chimbo is quite right of course!...

having spent some time o/seas with various companies in different countries, and mixing with pilots from all over the world, the biggest "pain in the asses" have been my fellow Oz pilots from Ansett and TAA who proceeded to tell all and sundry how the way "we did it" is the only way!

Not only were they wrong but they also made themselves most unpopular! And they're still doing it today!

It was an embarrassment to be associated with them! :*

[FlexibleResponse]

Younger staff may be more attractive and this may possibly translate to a more marketable product.

However, the main benefit to the management of a low cost airline in employing young people is that they are more naive and gullible and will work for peanuts. They don’t have the bitter life experiences to allow them to properly evaluate the current situation they face and extrapolate that to the future.

As a result, if they are given special treats and pats on the back from time to time by their puppet master, they will give years of loyal and non-unionised employment. In time they will come to realise that the peanuts they are given will not translate into a comfortable retirement and will see that their years of toil have been only to swell the coffers of the top dogs.

Look no further than Southwest Airlines to see what an unhappy bunch of little vegemites they have become. The same formula will likely apply here.

The real reason that the more experienced cabin attendants were not offered employment is that the management know they are too smart to be hoodwinked with a slick song and dance routine. Instead the management preys amongst the young and innocent.

Good luck to the experienced girls with their legal action. And also good luck to the current DJ staff with improving their lot in future times.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I don't know how many times I have to stress not all but a significant % for it to sink in:confused:

I'm not going to start quoting people as I still work with some..suffice to say Obie is on the mark...very common perception of (relatively recent) ex AN - expat world wide...no recent personal experience of ex AO/TAA drivers.

As recently as last weekend I had numerous beers with a mate working domestically in Oz and his view was that his operation's cabin crew's attitude has taken a dive since significant ex AN staff have joined and whinged long and hard about just about everything.

I tend to think that VB's bias may be less age than along the lines of flexible resonse's post above...not saying it's right, just it's feasable that management are thinking that way.

[Kaptin M]

Let's not jet started on precisely WHICH operator that might be C c!!

Whereas flight deck ops are generally Boeing or Airbus orientated, I guess that the cabin service will be something unique to each airline - after all, THAT is what the "customers" (as opposed to pax, in days of yore!) are exposed to, for the duration.
And the predominant influence of cabin crew from a previous airline may well alter the culture of the newer (impressionable) F/A's in the direction of the more experienced workmates' past employer.
"Previous experience" for an extended period of time, with ONE employer, therefore, might not ALWAYS be to one's advantage.

[smokestak]

Chimbu

These people you refer to are obviously tossers making life difficult for all the great crew who flew for AN.
But leopards don't change their spots. They would have been tossers at AN as well. Every company has them but they only become known to the wider community when they move on or their company folds. God help us if QF goes belly up! :}