What's up with Lille Info?

[parris50]

Took some friends to Le Touquet the other day. Manston RAD asked me to freecall Lille Info which I did. I could hear them talking to other pilots but even after quite a few attempts, couldn't get a reply, not even a "standby".

I was only just over the FIR boundary. Is it possible that they couldn't hear my transmissions due to the distance? Do they (paranoia setting in) ignore British pilots?

Any one had any similar experience?

[distaff_beancounter]

I understand that the Lille Info covers a vast area & that its radio reception is poor.

BUT, is it me, or is it them? ....... everytime I go to Le Touquet, the usual responses that I get, from Lille Info, are:-
"I do not have a flight plan for you" - even though we have filed & got a receipt
No response other than "freecall Le Touquet tower"
Or the classic a couple of summers ago, when we were returning to the UK, had just left LeT & were heading up the coast to Cap Gris Nez..... "Please call London Information - I do not speak English good"
:(

[Brooklands]

I think Lille stopped offering a service to people crossing the channel to Le Touquet a couple of years ago. AFAIK it was due to lack of controllers to provide the service. Last time I went to L2K I London Info asked me to contact L2K tower directly. I think there was something about it either here or on the ATC forum at the time - the search engine might dig it up for you.

Distaff"I do not have a flight plan for you" - even though we have filed & got a receipt Unless you filled an IFR flight plan Lille wouldn't have a copy - VFR flight plans only go to the departure and destination airfields. You'd have to ask on the plan itself for it to be copied to Lille.

Brooklands

[Fly Stimulator]

parris50,

Lille haven't been providing a service to VFR flights for some months.

It's NOTAMed too - you must have missed them when you checked, so I've pasted them in below:

Ref: A1323/04
FIR: LFFF
Code: SELT
Traffic: VFR
Purpose: PIB entry
Scope: Aerodrome Enroute
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 999
Centre and radius (nm): 5034N00305E005
Parent ICAO: LFQQ
Start date/time: 17/05/2004 08:33 UTC
End date/time: 28/08/2004 23:59 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 999

FIS NOT PROVIDED FOR VFR FLIGHTS : 134,825 MHZ OUT OF SERVICE



Ref: A2083/04
FIR: LFFF
Code: SEAU
Traffic: VFR
Purpose: PIB entry
Scope: Aerodrome Enroute
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 195
Centre and radius (nm): 5027N00235E060
Parent ICAO: LFQQ
Start date/time: 03/08/2004 08:16 UTC
End date/time: 03/11/2004 23:59 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 195

FLIGHT INFO SERVICE NOT PROVIDED TO VFR

IN LILLE 1 AND 2 FLIGHT INFOR SECTORS.

[crossfire]

I have been to LFAT several times recently, and do the following with regards to ATC:

Get an FIS from Manston when crossing the Thames heading south-east. They are always busy so tell me something like "No specific traffic information will be given .. it's very busy today".

Fine... I report mid-channel (no communication before then) and am then asked to freecall Le Touquet.

They ask me to report 10 miles north (just south of Boulogne). I guess they say 10 miles north because nobody can pronounce the name!

I report and am told which way to join. It's that simple.

Same with coming back. They just ask you to report leaving the frequency, which I do, and say I'm going to Manston's frequency.

No communication with London needed. I don't think they are ever much help anyway.

[parris50]

Thanks for your answers.

Strange thing is that Lille wouldn't have known anything about my flight as I was frecalling them. It also seems odd that Manston would ask me to call them if they are not offering a service to cross channel VFR flights. Also it would seem bad practice for Lille simply to ignore my radio call. An acknowledgement or a request to call Le Touquet would seem more appropriate.

By the way, if I go IFR, can Lille provide a RAS?

:ok:

[distaff_beancounter]

Brooklands
I am only a humble PPL+IMC, but I often sit in the right-hand seat when a friend with a PPL+IR is flying to LeT & when he has filed IFR. And we STILL sometimes get the "I do not have a flight plan for you"!! :mad:

From the postings above, I am now confused as to whether we should be using Lille Info, for either IFR or VFR flights to LeT. I am in the office (working - honest! :O ) so do not have plates to hand, but I seem to recall that both the AERAD plates & Pooleys plates are still give "Lille Info" as the APPROACH frequency for LeT, rather than just for a flight information service.

Last Saturday, with friend with the PPL+IR flying on an IFR plan to LeT, London Centre handed us over to Lille Information as we neared the Kent coast, & we did get a sensible service from Lille.

Then when we were on the ILS for R14, we had a VERY close encounter with a C172 - registration - G-:mad: who did not seem to know where he was, but that is another story!

[Fly Stimulator]

There was quite a thorough discussion of this last October in the ATC forum. See this thread. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=105386)

[SwanFIS]

Nothing has changed at Lille since the previous conversation.

Due to staffing / union constraints Lille are only providing service to IFR flights on 120.27. If IFR you can request RAS, RIS or even radar control, but you will have to ask for it.

For VFR traffic you have a choice between Calais, Le Touquet or Paris information.

When they sort out their staff and get adequate numbers trained they say that they will have two freqs, one IFR the other VFR.

[bar shaker]

Crossfire

You did better than me on my L2K trip a couple of weeks ago. I went into Lydd (London Ashford International etc) as friend needed to clear customs. On climbing out, we called Manston only to be refused a FIS and told to freecall Lydd. Arguing with the bloke got me no where and we ended up on Lydd, whilst the rest of the world was crossing on Manston.

We were the only people on Lydd, in less than perfect conditions. Lydd were, as usual, very helpful but had no idea of any conflicting traffic.

I am still not happy about this but have heard from ATC mates that the :mad: at Manston is retiring soon.

I should add that the rest of the crew at Manston are very helpful.

[IO540]

"VFR flight plans only go to the departure and destination airfields"

I don't think the above is entirely true. AFAIK the addressing of a VFR flight plan is entirely up to the person feeding into the telex system used to distribute it, and normally it would go to

1. departure
2. destination
3. the regional FIS at one end (e.g. London Info)
4. the regional FIS at the other end (e.g. Brest Info)

A lot of VFR flight plans just vanish and nobody knows why.

What I would like to know is the relevance of 3. and 4. above. I know for a fact that if I don't call up London Info upon return to the UK from France, nothing happens. I have done the same the other way round, going into e.g. Deauville. But could one fly deep into France, e.g. to Tarbes, without making radio contact until the end? What would actually happen?

IFR flight plans I don't know except they are done centrally via Brussels.

[SwanFIS]

bar shaker

Cannot go into details but your understanding of the Manston situation is "not a million miles away from from the truth"

IO540

At LACC about the only time that we use VFR fp details is for tracing action in the event of an overdue a/c report. It can also we accessed if we get the callsign but cannot understand the pilots intentions.

All IFR fps are addressed to an IFPS collective that includes their two centres at Bussels and Bretigny. It is checked and the correct (in theory) plans are sent out to all the relevant ATC units along the route.

[owenlars]

Three weeks ago, flying VFR Deauville Le Touquet Wycombe at 3000 ft, was actively told by Le Toquet to contact Lille from as far west as Dieppe, excellent service received,no problem at all. Clearly another inconsistency!

[SwanFIS]

owenlars

Lille are a very freindly unit and will sometimes help a pilot / ATC unit by giving VFR tfc a service. This really confuses the issue and goes against their NOTAM and recent AIC to the contrary.

[jayemm]

When first flying across the channel, I was told in no uncertain terms to file a (VFR) flight plan, diligently report boundary crossings and that if I didn't report within 30 mins of the ETA at my destination a Nimrod would be sent out to find me and charge me £sss if I was ok.

So I thought this was all deadly serious and strict stuff.

Since then, I've noticed that when you're in the air, no one seems to care much; Boundary crossings don't seem to interest anyone (even though I always try to report at the Boundary).

Last year I flew to La Rochelle (on a sunday). I couldn't get anyone (who was interested) to report my Boundary Crossing to until I reached La Rochelle.

My conclusion is that no-one is interested other than when you depart and when you arrive.

I'm not planning to put the Nimrod part of this to the test. :ok:

[SwanFIS]

If you file a VFR flight plan, and you flight plan is activated on departure the ATC unit at your destination will instigate overdue action should you not turn up when expected. The French are very hot on this.

Boundary and position reports along your way are at your and ATCs discretion. They will not usually trigger overdue action but are very useful for tracing action should you come a cropper.

If no ATC at destination that is when you have to nominate a reliable person to advise the authorities of non arrival.

[IO540]

SWANFIS

I agree that the intermediate waypoints are ignored in normal circumstances, but I do wonder if putting something in there which somebody doesn't know what to do with is what causes VFR flight plans to vanish.

Lots of people here in the UK put in waypoints like airfield identifiers (which is not allowed) or waypoints like "Upper Brockenham" which is going to really mean a lot to somebody more than a few miles away from there :O

It is an enduring mystery what causes FPs to vanish. It happens to me very often, despite me filing them (usually) at the proper terminal at an ATC airfield, have the ATC check them and enter them into the system, and using all the proper formats within.

[bookworm]

It is an enduring mystery what causes FPs to vanish.

In reckon there's a monster in the tower at LFAT that eats FPLs. The usual story today:

"G-XXXX request start IFR for EGXX"
"Say again callsign"
"G-XXXX requesting start"
"G-XXXX I do not 'ave your flight plan"
"It's an IFR FPL to EGXX off blocks 1500"
"I call you back"
... minutes...
"G-XXXX start approved"

[IO540]

Do you mean the FPs are actually there but ATC can't be bothered to locate them? I've never had one lost at LFAT but I've had them lost at Malaga and Biarritz for example. Also no FP ever filed in the UK had ever got as far as Spain.

[SwanFIS]

IO540

Unlike IFR fps VFR fp information is transmitted over the AFTN as written, there is no format or route validity check. Therefore any oddities in the route field should not affect its transmition or reception.

The addresses it is sent to should be taken out of CAP550 plus any other ones that the pilot has stipulated. Therefore all relevant ATC units "should" receive a copy.

As an area unit we would not notice missing VFR plans, perhaps one of the airfield peeps could comment?

Edit - I might use the phrase "I do not have your flight plan" meaning - we do not use flight plan data even though we receive it. Perhaps ATC should be clearer as to what we mean.

[Fujiflyer]

Paris Info (North) 125.70 are covering this area at the moment for VFR flights as per this AIP (SUP):

http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier/supaipmetro/SUP_2004_71_FR.pdf

Lille APP always gave me a good service when they were meant to be able to provide it.

Crossfire, No communication with London needed. I don't think they are ever much help anyway.

- thats a bit harsh, London do get busy and its common to be asked to standby but I have always had a first class service from them once they have taken my details (always within 10mins of initial call).