Serious cash saving ideas.

[D-IFF_ident]

Anyone have any ideas to save the money from the budget? Here are a few of mine:

1. No more Padres. If anyone wants to go to church - there's one in every town. Anyone need counselling - there's plenty of organizations that can help. Welfare - OC PMS' job. At an average wage of 50k per year, there must be a couple of hundred of them - there's £10mil per year in wages alone for you.

2. Scrap blue and green uniforms - flying suits or Soldier 95 for everyone. Must be worth a few £mil each year too.

3. UAS's, recruiting doesn't seem to be a problem. Should be a coupla £mil in there.

4. How about the ATC while we're at it - the cadets that is, although..... Perhaps a £mil or 2 each year. What do we need them for? Are they really helping defend the nation?

5. Procurement plans that work. If the product doesn't turn up on the agreed delivery date - we don't pay for it, or pay a lot less at any rate.

6. Buying stuff from the best, most cost-effective supplier. Not the place that offers the best political pay-back, jobs for the boys etc.

Seriously - there must be ways to save cash without reducing our credibility as a fighting force. Tell me your ideas - I could get £25 for a Gem if you think of enough!

[norvenmunky]

How about suing the muppet(s) that signed off the Annington Homes deal. Unbelievable incompetence. I bet they've all got nice houses whoever they are!

[Hueymeister]

Air Training Corps costs about 8 Mil a year..but I think we should keep them.

[adr]

1. No more Padres. If anyone wants to go to church - there's one in every town. Anyone need counselling - there's plenty of organizations that can help.
Yep, let's ditch the guys whose sole concern is the welfare of individuals as human beings. Sends a nice message, and helps morale develop along its present vector. On det, people can always ask the local vicar in Basra or the Magic Kingdom or wherever to come in and lead a service. And why have someone who's part of the RAF to be there for RAF people, at Crown expense, when any airman or officer, or family member, would be happy to pay out silly money to local civvy counsellors? And the chance of a security risk from any counsellors offering their services to military personnel? Nil, surely. Pardon my irony, but I think ditching chaplains is a bad idea!

Welfare - OC PMS' job.
Has anyone had any experience of any difference in performance between OCs PMS and chaplains when they've hit a big problem? Stories I've heard suggest it's the Padre who gets things moving.

At an average wage of 50k per year, there must be a couple of hundred of them - there's £10mil per year in wages alone for you.
An RC chaplain will have done six years full-time residential training before ordination, then had three years or more supervised development as an assistant priest, before taking the Queen's Shilling. Some have served as a parish priest for years before joining. For other denominations, it'll be similar, but with shorter training before ordination (typically 2 or 3 years). Their starting salary? £30,985 (source: pay review 2003). Looks like a :mad: bargain to me! At 13 years, they're on £45,450. Sorry, don't know the present chaplain strength, but I reckon £10m would be hard to find.

Many organisations talk a lot of :mad: about a holistic approach to the welfare of their people. By providing chaplains the RAF is actually doing it, or trying, employing people to care for the spiritual welfare of RAF personnel. Rather work for an organisation which counts each person as a mere unit of human resource? You'll find plenty to choose from when the day comes to say tata!

Even if -- and I'm not conceding this point, just acknowledging it -- even if the continued existence of the chaplains branch is mere lip service to an ideal of a holistic view of service life, even if the MOD only continue to pay them to make the RAF seem to be interested in the pastoral, emotional and spiritual welfare of RAF people and families, isn't lip service better than nothing? What would it do to the culture of the RAF if those weird misfits with plastic collars weren't around any more? I'd say it'd help to usher in a new, cold, utilitarian, poisonous ethos.

I hope it never comes to pass. I fear someone is even now reading this, thinking how to spin the abolition of chaplaincy as a response to a groundswell of opinion from the front line. And I fear it'd be one of those actions whose practical impact is dwarfed by its symbolic impact. Chaos theory works for organisations too, and ditching chaplains could be the butterflies wings that change the climate.

There's a church in every town? True. There's a doctor's surgery, and a dentist, in every town, too.

OK. Rant over. Time for a beer!

adr

[The Gorilla]

Norven

It was Michael Portillo as Defence Secretary, and yes he's doing very nicely thank you!!

:ok:

[TheNightOwl]

adr - your point re "unit of human resource" is well made. Some years back, when my company's Personnel Dept. became the Human Resources Dept., I remarked to my boss that I objected to being referred to as a "resource". With a straight face, he told me "but that is just what you are, a resource of this company, to be used on company business as I see fit".
It took the wind from my sails, I can tell you, but it was what he practised from then on. We were no longer people, but units of the company, identified by a company number!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:{

[D-IFF_ident]

I agree, padres, chaplains, are great. One looked after me very well during a personal welfare crisis a few years ago - much better than OC PMS, who didn't want to get involved becuase to do so might threaten his pension. But if we're going to cut our forces to levels that will leave us ill-equipped to defend our Nation, even more poorly placed to police the world, then should we not cut out every non-fighting part before removing a single fighting unit?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh right - thats what this country needs to do!

Tell the tens of thousands of teenagers who actually do get off their backside, polish their shoes and participate in a bit of disciplined training every week that - actually - you should all hand back your uniforms and sod off to the towns street corners or hang around the shopping precinct swiging cans of cider and scaring old people instead. We *need* to save a massive £8m....

I'd see the Red Arrows gone before the Air Training Corps any day.

Cheers

WWW

[PhoenixDaCat]

Wish my cadets would polish their shoes! :O

There are about 35,000 spaceys and a similar number in the ACF and SCC, so let's just turf 100,000 youngsters onto the streets with nothing to do shall we? Wonder what sort of trouble they would get up to then, at a cost to the legal process.

The ATC is dual funded. Cadets have to contribute themselves. So not only are they making the effort to get off their 4r$es and do something worthwhile in the community, they are also paying £17 per month (on my sqn at least) for the privilege.

Let's get rid of 100,000 dedicated kids who one day would have used their leadership and team skills in the workplace.

Makes sense to me.

[Green Meat]

£17? Crumbs, 'DaCat, are you buying in flying hours for them as well? That's anywhere between £1.70 and £2.13 per parade night if my ailing memory serves me right. Must be a rich area :D

Seriously, the ATC is worth every penny. Staish at Halton (previous one, I think) was heard to utter that they made the best recruits. The reason, apparently, that the published figures for ATC joining up are relatively low are a reluctance to admit belonging for fear of extra beasting!

WWW, your comments are spot on.

Edited to make sense!

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Oh right - thats what this country needs to do!

Tell the tens of thousands of teenagers who actually do get off their backside, polish their shoes and participate in a bit of disciplined training every week that - actually - you should all hand back your uniforms and sod off to the towns street corners or hang around the shopping precinct swiging cans of cider and scaring old people instead. We *need* to save a massive £8m....

I'd see the Red Arrows gone before the Air Training Corps any day.


Pretty much my sentiment. Yup, the ATC isnt a recruiting tool (IIRC more cadets become pongo ruperts than RAF Officers). But is helps the local community. It is one of the few things that the government have got right, and they are commited to funding the cadet corps, and happy to do so.

[Uncle Ginsters]

D-IFF Ident,
Whilst i agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly, i think we need to get a sense of perspective on where the real downfalls are. Let's look (very roughly) at the figures:

1. Padres < £10M

2. Uniforms < £5M

3. UAS's < £20M

4. ATC ~£10M

5. Procurement ~£500M on poor choice and contracts

You choose ;)

[Flt Lt Spry]

Interestingly enough, I notice that ATC cadets now qualify to fly to their summer camp courtesy of Squeezy Jet.

Wish we were exposed to such luxuries instead of the standard 7 hour coach to Prestwick/sleep on the floor package prior to any det.

[ppf]

What about the VGS's, don't think they have been mentioned yet. Dare say they cost quite a bit each year to run, any thoughts??

ppf :cool:

[ZH875]

How about this for saving money:

The person in charge of a Flight on a squadron is a Flt Lt
The person in charge of the squadron is a Sqn Ldr
The person in charge of (3 sqns) a wing is a Wg Cdr
The person in charge of (3 stations) a group is a Gp Capt
etc

or failing that explain to the taxpayer why the current situatation regards ranks for the above are Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr, Gp Capt and Air Cdre respectively.

Bring back Sgt Pilots and save even more money. If they want to fly in the military, they will accept lower wages.

But definately get rid of Best Blue (never wore the last two) and blues, as everywhere we go we use CS95.

[Green Meat]

Much cheaper than maintaining a fleet of Chipmunks! A quick search of the ATC website shows one of their aims to be :

To promote and encourage among young people a practical interest in aviation and the Royal Air Force.

Rather brings us back full circle to WWW's comments that the ATC is a valuable organisation even if it isn't (nod in Cat5's direction) directly a recruiting tool.

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Cheers Green.

One of the questions I had recently at my VR(T) commisioning board was "How can you justify the ATC in this time of defence cuts?", so I did have a pat answer ready!

What about the VGS's, don't think they have been mentioned yet. Dare say they cost quite a bit each year to run, any thoughts??

I say keep them. It gives me something to do at weekends (like paperwork etc!). It will be a sad day if VGS were scrapped.

The ATC is the worlds biggest gliding organisation. Lets keep it this way.

I was sad when they sold the Valiants :{ and would happily welcome a few single seaters back into the VGS world (although I do agree that it doesn't fall in line with the bean counters view of things).

It is a shame that the MOD has to sell/cut back on assets to gain the cash to pay for something that is running over budget/overtime etc. What ever happened to smart procurement!

Rant over ;)

[althenick]

I think i might have posted this before but here goes....

1. Get rid of MU's and have squadron personell do the job. why can the FAA/AAC do without them and the RAF can't?

2. Streamline RAF Tech Trade Structure - Bring the Squdron tech Trade structure in Line with the FAA (3 soon to be 2 trades) thus allowing common training and support systems where commom airframes are involved.

3. Allow non-com aircrew into the FAA/RAF helecopter communities at least. works in the AAC so I cant see why it cant work the other 2.

4. Direct entry Aircrew - why can a Tanker Master from the Merchant Marine practically walk on to an RN warship and take command. And yet a youngish Airline Pilot cannot say fly Transports for the RAF, same with groundcrew etc.

5. Save cash in retention by getting rid of all the stupid allowances (and I mean ALL) and provide all sevicemen/women with a Tax free Salary when overseas or outside UK Territorial waters.

Political...

Get rid of trident weapons and convert Subs to SSGN's. Result of this would mean the closure of DM Glen douglas (Moving to Coulport) and the Bagging of at leat 500 CS's. Then provide a minimal deterrent with Nuclear TLAM. Cancel or pospone A comensurate number of new astute hulls thus saving more money.

Thats all for now...

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Except for the cost of developing a nuclear warhead for Tomahawk....

[althenick]

WEBF

You can stick a nuke in a suitcase now - how much could development costs be????

[pr00ne]

althenick,

You’re a bit out of touch aren’t you?


1. This happened years ago, DARA are now responsible for all third line activity at St.Athan, the reason the FAA and AAC managed without MU’s is that the old RAF MU’s did the job for them!
2. Isn’t this happening?
3. Work on Apache will it?
4. I don’t think he can you know!
5. The forces will love you for that!



"MU’s" as you put it are history, have been for a while. OEM’s are the way ahead working in partnership with the actual operators.

[airborne_artist]

1. Get rid of MU's and have squadron personell do the job. why can the FAA/AAC do without them and the RAF can't?

The RN MU base was and is RNAY Fleetlands, at Gosport. Now under control of DARA, and certainly used to do MU work on AAC helicopters.

4. Direct entry Aircrew - why can a Tanker Master from the Merchant Marine practically walk on to an RN warship and take command.

Total cobblers - despite your Wavy Navy experience, you are talking again through your sphincter.

RN warships are fighting platforms, not transport vessels (that's the Royal Fleet Auxiliary), and a Master Mariner would have no knowledge of warfare whatsoever, despite being able to navigate, communicate (just) and manage his team.

On the other hand, RN commanding officers with a specified minimum amount of ocean-going command are able to apply for a Master Mariners ticket without further examination or sea time.

[Scud-U-Like]

Veering off-topic somewhat (ie completely); I wouldn't get rid of chaplains, as a cost-saving measure, but I do think they should be re-designated "welfare officers" and that their religious beliefs should be deemed incidental to their role. For the vast majority of service personnel, religion is, at best, a "flag of convenience" and, at worst, an irrelevance.

People approach a counsellor because they need objective and non-judgmental advice. "Good advice" and "good advice, according to religion" are often completely at odds. I appreciate there are some very down-to-earth chaplains out there. But is a minister of religion able to suspend his religious conscience, where good judgment dictates that he should? (And should a minister of religion who can put aside his religious beliefs in this way, be a man o' the cloth in the first place?)

[Large Dave]

WEBF:

Tomahawk was primarily designed as a tactical nuclear platform, we could buy them off the Yanks just like we did Polaris and Trident. It was only after the Wall came down that it's conventional role was realized.

In-fact, they'd be probably be happier with us having Tomahawk. It's more suited to second-strike / retaliation strikes than a surpirse attack as it is slower and vulnearable to air defences, unlike a SLBM like Trident.

See http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm

Edited to include reference

[althenick]

Total cobblers - despite your Wavy Navy experience, you are talking again through your sphincter.


Goodness me! 7 years and I must have dreamt it! This isn't fairy story stuff I do recall between bouts of sea sickness having some very competent Merchant Marine Captains and Some pretty lousy Ex Regular RN ones.


Pr00ne


This happened years ago, DARA are now responsible for all third line activity at St.Athan, the reason the FAA and AAC managed without MU’s is that the old RAF MU’s did the job for them!

but what about when at sea or when impossible to return the Aircraft? what then?

2. Isn’t this happening?

Your right it is! and not before time (Just been on the RAF careers website)

3. Work on Apache will it?

I cant see how it can work any other way - a high % of Army aviators are Non-comm why cant the same be applied to the RAF and FAA? Any reasons?


4. I don’t think he can you know!

I think they can. granted not without conversion courses but I suppose it would depend on the ship.


5. The forces will love you for that!

...to know me is to love me:p

[airborne_artist]

Goodness me! 7 years and I must have dreamt it! This isn't fairy story stuff I do recall between bouts of sea sickness having some very competent Merchant Marine Captains and Some pretty lousy Ex Regular RN ones.

An RNR vessel commander is a different proposition to a Captain of a destroyer/aircraft carrier, and your original post why can a Tanker Master from the Merchant Marine practically walk on to an RN warship and take command did not make that clear.

I expect that a trawler master would make an excellent minesweeper captain, amply demonstrated by their WWII utilisation.

[joe2812]

MP's just gave themselves a 10% pay rise.

MPs earn £57,485 a year. Thats an increase of ~£5500 per MP.

There are 659 MPs in the House of Commons.

Thats an extra £3,624,500 going on MP's wages alone, ignoring the House of Lords, MEPs, extra duties etc. Maybe some of that should go on the worrying state of the UK's armed and public services.

[Ops and Mops]

How about moving UGSAS from Glasgow International Airport, (run by the BAA and no doubt skinning the MoD for as much money as it can in land rental and landing fees) to RNAS Prestwick and utilise some of the empty space at HMS Gannet left by 819 Sqn? There is still plenty of what appears to be unused accommodation and the hangars on site are a damn site better/bigger than the garden shed they built at GLA! As the land/hangarage is already leased by the MoD then there wouldnt be any additional cost to put another unit there.

As a fair amount of UAS studes end up in the FAA anyway and in todays "Purple" culture I dont think it would be too much of a hardship for them. Anyway, the rest of the RAF prefers Prestwick to Glasgow Airport as it saves money for PD's, fuel stops and land aways. The house prices are more favourable for the QFI's/engineers too!

But I guess it would be too sensible to make use of wasted space......

[joe2812]

Buy more sensible chairs

http://www.modoracle.com/news/detail.h2f?id=5794&category=12&refresh=9B289ECA-D216-4C25-8C9C493C60D2A9E8