Cheap Fun Flying - Is It Possible?

[jayteeto]

I am a 'professional pilot' with an ATPL A + H. The thing is... I'm bored and need a new challenge in aviation. There is a microlight airfield a couple of minutes from where I work. Mrs Jayteeto is not so keen on me flying on a kite but I quite fancy a try.
A question or two.... how safe are flexwings and how much will it cost me to fly one? (realistic, not club salesman estimates)
Anyone been down this path before and what were their experiences compared to light aircraft?

[BRL]

Hi, I can't give you figures here, our friend Bar Shaker will be able to give you some excellent advice. Untill then, try this site............ (http://www.microlightclubs.co.uk)
Let us know how you get on. :)

[S-Works]

Great fun, very safe and cheap. I also fly fully gadgeted spam cans IFR and you cant beat the sheer fun and freedom of a microlight.

Expect as an experianced A+H pilot to take between 15-20 hours to convert to the reverse sense of a flexwing.

Aircraft perfromance varies from 40-90mph and costs for a trike can start at £1800 and work up to £20,000.

Running cost on an average flexwing is between 12-18lph mogas. Maintance is done by yourself if you want with an inspector overseeing.

Real term cost is about £25 per hour wet.

I am a BMAA member and have found them an endless source of help and advice and worth the £40 odd quid a year membership. You will get a monthly mag full of interesting stuff and a big used aircraft section at the back.

There are many good schools out there offering conversion, some of the top guys are Flylight at Sywell who I learnt with, C10 at Deenethorpe to name but a couple. Expect to end up with an NPPL which you can do both a flex wing and fixed wing rating.

[AerBabe]

I bought a share in a tailwheel Thruster earlier this year, from a slightly dodgy man with a bow tie. I've only been able to log about 3 hours in it so far, due to moving house and going on holiday, but it is GREAT FUN. :ok: It isn't exactly crisp, powerful handling, but it is responsive and chuck-aroundable. It'll happily get into short fields, but it's not a tourer.

Costs: £100 for the share, £15 a month insurance, ca. £15 an hour wet.

Flexwings will be slightly different, of course, but if you want to fly to get your bum off the ground, and you don't mind getting a bit cold and wet, give it a go. :)

[FWA NATCA]

Jay,

Check out some of the motorized gliders, or pure gliders. The challenges of riding the air currents are from what I'm told an awesome experience.

Mike

[Genghis the Engineer]

Having been flying military, microlights, light aircraft, and anything else I can get my hands on since I was about 18, I've no problem with the safety of a flexwing. Statistically they're pretty much as likely or unlikely to kill you as any other class of light aeroplane - around once every 50,000 hours - with virtually no structural failures, it's the usual collection of take-off and landing accidents, trees, powerlines, and the occasional mid-air.

If you're used to big jets with conventional controls, you'll find it a steeper learning curve than perhaps you anticipate, but that's just part of the challenge. They are incredibly cheap to buy and run (if you want them to be), and I can't honestly think of anything I'd rather be flying locally on a fine summers evening than a flexwing.

If you want actual running costs, £3k+ will get you a reasonable low performance 2-seater (obviously you can pay a lot more, and will get a lot more aeroplane, but that's a reasonable baseline), and £1000pa should get you around 40-50 hours of recreational flying.

Your £3k aeroplane will probably cruise around 40-50kn, need about 200m of runway, and have about 150nm legs.

And, as bose says, it's worth joining the BMAA for the help you'll get (you'll need to to operate the aeroplane anyway).

G

200ish hours on flexwings.

[englishal]

What about a permit aircraft, for around £8k to buy. Cruise at around 70 kts, two seats, aerobatic, stressed to +9 / -6g...........17L of fuel per hour.

Back of flyer mag this month (I'm not the seller, though I am considering purchasing)

[bar shaker]

Jayteeto

You can get a half hour trial flight for approx £40 and this will be enough to see if its for you.

The good bits:
The view and sense of freedom is unrivalled
They are really chuckable
They can land in 75m and take of in 150m
Can be kept in the garage
Very cheap flying
Virtually no depreciation on entry level machines

Bad bits:
Tossed around by mid day summer thermals
Very little luggage space, especially if two up
Headwinds will affect range/ground speed
Not accepted at some snobby airfields

I worked the BMAA stand at Fly, Earls Court and lots of people, from PPLs to long haul Captains, came over to chat for the same reasons that you have posted. They wanted some exitement.

There are several Captain and First Officer pilots that have taken up microlights. One of the last 3 Concorde pilots flies a flexwing.

You can go touring in them, but its all about the journey, rather than the arrival.

For the cheapest outlay, look for something like a Pegasus XL with a 447 or 462 engine. They can be picked up for less than £3k. Machines like the Q and Alpha are the next step up and are around the £5k mark. The Blade and Quantum, with 582 or 912 four stroke are £10-£17k with a couple of hundred hours on them.

The 582 is a bit juicy, but all other engines will cruise at 10 litres per hour or less. The 462 will cruise at around 7lph, one up.

Its impossible to comment on hours required for conversion. Some do it in 5, some take 20. Lessons are approx £70-£85ph dual.

Useful links:

BMAA official website (http://www.bmaa.org)

A good microlight club website - great stories (http://www.medwayairsportsclub.org.uk/)

[TheKentishFledgling]

Cheap Fun Flying - Is It Possible?

Ask me in about a month's time.....!!

tKF

[Microheavy]

http://www.xair.flyer.co.uk/

[Kolibear]

The words 'Cheap' and 'Flying' do not sit happily together.

Lets just say that some form of flying is less expensive than others and I hope you manage to find your ideal solution.

[jezbowman]

This thread has got me thinking in a 'damage my bank balance' way. I never though of Microlighting before.

So a few questions - though I may be stating the obvious...

1. I've got a JAA PPL (A) and a Class II medical - I don't need to officially do anything more do I? I could just go buy a microlight now and fly it home - right? (In theory of course - I'd need some instruction first!!)

2. How much are running costs like Annual, C of A, Insurance (or do you even need those things)?

3. What are good or bad engine times? How long do the engines last?

4. If I were to keep it at, say, Leicester Airport, how much would I expect to pay for hangerage or what other storage options are there?

5. How many hours should I budget for to convert? (I'm currenly 100 or so hours on 152/172)

6. What is the depreciation value of these things? I'm guessing there not as retentative as your average spam-can.

7. I guess the final question is - why would I get a FW ML over a C150 or something? Is it the running and maintaiance costs which are drastically reduced?

I'd go for a fixed wing three axis in the £5K bracket, not a flexi wing.

Cheers,
Jez

[Fly Stimulator]

jez,

There is a thread here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=126384) which covered those sorts of questions pretty well.

Running quickly through your questions though:

1) Yes, the JAR PPL and Class II will cover you. I fly my microlight on that basis. As you say, conversion training is a good plan for any new type.

2) Running costs are low since you can normally do the work yourself instead of paying an engineer and there is no equivalent to the likes of star annuals. You need to renew the Permit to Fly each year for which you'll need to pay an inspector a hundred quid or so and send a small fee to the BMAA. This helps keep one of the contributors here fed, so is in a good cause ;) Some microlights are administered by the PFA too.

3) The TBO for my microlight's engine is 1,200 hours. I don't know what it is for two-strokes, but I image it is significantly less.

4) If you get something with folding wings that should cut the hangarage costs down, otherwise it's likely to be just the same as any other light aircraft.

5) Hard to say since it depends on you and on what you buy. Landing tailwheel Thrusters supposedly takes some mastering and may take quite a few hours to get the hang of, while tricycle gear types will feel much more familiar to you. My own view is that microlights take more skill to land than the 152s, 172s, PA28s and Cirri that I've flown since the low weight and lack of inertia mean that you are more subject to being blown about and have to pay close attention to energy management. Something light and draggy can stop flying very suddenly from a low approach speed, and if you still happen to be 20 feet up at the time this can spoil your day.


6) If you're looking to spend £5K then clearly the worst depreciation that you can suffer is £5K - not bad in aircraft terms! In fact, once something has dropped to that level it'll probably stay there for years.

7) Just as you say - the running and maintenance costs are less. If you are keen to do night or IMC flying then a microlight is no use to you - horses for courses as ever.

[Genghis the Engineer]

1. Differences training is mandatory, just as it is for, say, a taildragger. No test however.

2. Annual about £150 including inspector and BMAA fees.

3. 3rd party insurance about £80pa, full hull insurance (including 3rd party) generally around 8% of hull value. Insurance is not legally mandatory, but you'll find yourself banned from many airfields if you don't have 3rd party at-least.

4. 4-strokes have a TBO of about 1200hrs, 2-strokes 300hrs. Typical servicing costs here (http://www.conairsports.co.uk/17-18-servicing.pdf) Personally I think that the 503 is the best of the 2-strokes, and the 912 and Jabiru the best of the 4-strokes.

5. I'd reckon on about 3-4 hours for a 3-axis microlight, 10-12 for a flexwing.

6. As Fly Stimulator says - depreciation is slow and minimal.

7. I find it usually costs me fuel plus same again, that's with 3rd party insurance and reasonably cheap hangerage. So, at 15 litres/hr, it'll cost you around £20-£25/hr all in. Add in extra insurance or expensive hangerage (I'm paying £30/mth).


3-axis in the £5k bracket you're limited. 2-seaters, perhaps a Thruster TST, Spectrum, ropey AX3, MW6. Single seaters, MW5, Goldwing (not an aeroplane for a 100hr pilot to be honest), Sluka, Tiger Cub (very cheap, fairly horrible).

Pick of the bunch for a £5k 3-axis are probably the Spectrum (if you can find one), Thruster, Sluka or MW5 - in roughly descending order of price.

G

[jezbowman]

Excellent information, thanks guys. :ok:

I'd half expected to hear the snippet of information that would put me off the whole idea, but didn't. :cool:

This has kind of come out of seeing an advert for a Thruster T300 for £5k - <the advert> (http://www.bmaa.org/classified.asp?s_AdvertType=1&s_AdvertCategory=2&s_Item=&t_DAT_Advert_t_DAT_AdvertPageSize=&AdvertID=782).

Hmm, might try and book a trial lesson with a local club...

Jez

[Genghis the Engineer]

The T300 is basically a TST with a slightly higher MTOW (bit like the difference between a 150 and 152). Given the chap is throwing in a trailer as well, if it's in good nick, that's quite cheap. You will also need to spend a bit of cash (£300-£500) on a couple of flying suits, helmets, headsets and an intercom to be able to operate the beast 2-up.

Incidentally, Older Thrusters come with one of two engines, the 503 and 532. The 503 is air-cooled and much easier to look after, but the 532 is liquid cooled, so takes a bit more maintenance work - but does give about 20% more power, which is well worth having.

By the way, there's a Spectrum out there for sale for similar money here (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=view&adid=168&si=411a3f800207e&PHPSESSID=b46d5516882b486349b5fd68d5dd7647&PHPSESSID=b46d5516882b486349b5fd68d5dd7647) also; given a choice I think the Spectrum is the nicer to fly (but that's just preference, I've flown both and have nothing against either).

G