Lhr -atc

[alexban]

Hy
Never visited the App centre at LHR,so I 'm curious how are you able to tell us 'you have X miles to land" while we are doing radar vectors ? You have some sort of tracks painted on the screens?
I'm amazed when I hear every time 'you have 22( 23,25..) miles to threshold.
When we got changed from a freq to another,sometimes the new one it is very crowded.Do you know about us being transfered to you,so I can just wait for you to find some time to say 'hy',or would this be a problem?
One more question,how it helps you to know the type of aircraft,during app? Wake turbulance,speed? Would it be a diff between a 737 and a 733?
My hat down to you,you are one of the best ATC I've ever work with.
Thks
Alex

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I am retired but I expect some of my "current" colleagues will join in, but here's my offering:

<<Never visited the App centre at LHR,so I 'm curious how are you able to tell us 'you have X miles to land" while we are doing radar vectors ? You have some sort of tracks painted on the screens? >>

No, it's down to the skill of the radar controllers. I might just as well ask you how you know when to flare an a/c for landing...

Every aircraft flies a different track so it would not be possible to have the tracks marked on the screen. It's basically a matter of counting the aircraft ahead and applying corrections for the type (vortex), spacing required, the upper wind, speed you are flying and other factors. With experience it is quite simple, although sometimes it goes wrong, especially in bad weather when somebody does not want to turn!! If there are four aircraft ahead of you and the first one is 3nm from touchdown and ATC is using 3nm spacing then you have approximately 15nm to touchdown if you are flying the same speed. If you are flying faster then you will have further to go.. The radar controllers will apply this information when passing you a range from touchdown.

<<When we got changed from a freq to another,sometimes the new one it is very crowded.Do you know about us being transfered to you,so I can just wait for you to find some time to say 'hy',or would this be a problem?>>

The controllers know when to expect your call but it is essential for you to make contact. If you sit there and wait there is always the slight possibility of something going wrong - maybe some confusion about the frequency for example?

<<One more question,how it helps you to know the type of aircraft,during app? Wake turbulance,speed? Would it be a diff between a 737 and a 733?>>

The Vortex categories vary depending on the weight of the aircraft. All Boeing 737s are classed as "medium" weight. Airlines often change the aircraft type without amending flight plans so it is very important to tell ATC your aircraft type so that Vortex spacing may be applied.

Hope that helps..

[Warped Factor]

HD pretty much covers it.

One other reason for requesting the a/c type info in addition to that of wake vortex is that we also pass the correction to the tower.

They need the correct a/c type info for conditional crossing clearances and such like and, fortunately rarely, for passing to the rescue services in the event of an incident.

WF.

[Dan Dare]

The diference between B737-300 and B737-700 is infinitessimal from a controlling point of view, but we do require the information. One example of the difference made is that the wingspans would allow the -300 on stands which wouldn't fit an NG and there are some taxilanes which have limits between the two. At night it would be very difficult to tell between the two. If you have winlets its even more imporant.

The rivet counters would also need to know to give them a fair chance to spot a new type:}

[Jerricho]

Hi Alex,

Do you know about us being transfered to you

When being transferred from the Intermediate Director (the guy working the stacks and positioning you into the downwind) to the Final Director (120.4), the flight progress strip is physically transferred as well, and placed into the Fin controllers flight progress board. This gives the representation of the sequence on final and lets the controllers know what to expect.

[Spitoon]

the flight progress strip is physically transferred as wellFor now!

[AlanM]

the flight progress strip is physically transferred as well

Or thrown hard depending who is No2!:ok:

[chiglet]

I woz "Always" taught..."Chuck the Beggar back HARDER!!:ok: "
THEN, they will pass it:rolleyes:
watp,iktch

[Topofthestack]

'The APP centre at LHR' hasn't existed since about 1994. APP has been done from the London Terminal Control Centre at West Drayton, Middlesex (about 4 miles north of LHR) where it forms part of the Operations Room that holds controllers doing the London TMA, Gatwick APP, Stansted/Luton APP, Thames Radar, Heathrow SVFR and City Radar.

[Jerricho]

Now Alan, you know that would never happen. It's all fun and games till somebody gets a progress strip in the eye.

Chucking them down at those Thames/SVFR bludgers.......that's a different game altogether.

BTW, TC LL bods. Did anything come from that study that nice lady from ATMDC (or whatever they call it now) was doing about strip marking and the possibility of electronic strips. I remember her saying somthing about too may people having to write things on there at the same time (Traffic Manager, the support guy and the radar guy all writing on the one piece of paper at the same time).

[gliding777]

Topfthestack,

Sorry to hi-jack the thread but I noted you saying that the controllers at West Drayton are responsible for LHR Special VFR operations. I thought that as LHR was surrounded by Class A airspace, that VFR is not permitted. Would it, therefore, be theoretically possible for any random aircraft to get a clearance through LHR CTR on a SFVR basis - although I imagine this would hardly ever happen?

From someone who has just taken the ATPL air law exam and therefore should know the answer!

[Turn It Off]

The def. of special VFR flight is

" A flight made at anytime in a control zone which is class A airspace, or in any other control zone in IMC or at night, in respect of which the appropriate air traffic control unit has given special permission for the flight to be made in accordance with special instructions given by that unit instead of in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules and in the course of which flight the aircraft complies with any instruction given by that unit and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface "

Think that answers it in a round about kinda way!

TIO

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Would it, therefore, be theoretically possible for any random aircraft to get a clearance through LHR CTR on a SFVR basis >>

Yes, but some conditions do apply and it's restricted to light a/c and not big jobs.

<<although I imagine this would hardly ever happen?>>

Happens all day every day. Clockwork mice whizzing backwards and forwards Blackbushe-Denham, Biggin-Elstree, etc., etc. During Ascot/Epsom/Farnborough the SVFR controllers handle many hundreds of such movements daily. There is a network of helicopter routes throughout the zone and they all fly SVFR.

<<From someone who has just taken the ATPL air law exam and therefore should know the answer!>>

Ne'er mind!

[gliding777]

Thanks for clearing that issue up. So basically 'VFR' is allowed as long as it's via an SFVR clearance? I gather that the CTR is Class A for historical reasons, but has its downgrade to Class D been considered, or would this mean that you guys would simply be bombarded with many,many more requests for transits?

I do listen out on 118.5/7/120.4 regularly on a portable scanner and it seems you guys are flat out dealing with the scheduled LHR movements already so probably don't want any more work to do!!

Cheers

[Squadgy]

The def. of special VFR flight is " A flight made at anytime in a control zone which is class A airspace, or in any other control zone in IMC or at night,"

I agree with all of this except the bit about IMC - surely if the aircraft if flying in IMC then they would have to be IFR not SVFR?:confused:

[ATCO Two]

Squadgy,

The reference to IMC relates to weather conditions at the major aerodrome in the CTR. Therefore in Class D airspace, if the visibility at the aerodrome falls to 5000m or less, we are obliged to ask pilots in the CTR if they require SVFR (or IFR) or VFR clearances. Obviously VFR clearances allow more flexibility to both parties, as SVFR clearances require standard separation to be applied.

Gliding777,

It's SVFR not SFVR! When the change was made from Rule 21 airspace, it was decided that the Heathrow CTR should be designated as Class A airspace. Most CTRs are Class D. SVFR flight absolves the pilot from certain of the low flying rules which can be useful when operating in the London area, but the downside is that standard separation has to be applied at all times between SVFR, and SVFR and IFR flights. There have been moves in the pass to re-classify the London CTR as Class C (unique in the UK), or Class D, but nothing has come of it. In the current security environment I cannot see the status quo being changed. I do not believe that any alteration in the classification of the London CTR would lead to an increase in requests for zone transits. If there was an increase, then there is the capacity available on the dedicated SVFR position to handle such requests.

[PPRuNe Radar]

In the current security environment I cannot see the status quo being changed.

I would guess Airspace Classification is pretty low on any terrorists priority list :confused:

[ATCO Two]

PPRuNE Radar,

Don't tell me, tell DAP.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Nope, just someone who understands that ICAO Airspace Classification is nothing to do with security. It is to do with a globally understood system defining servces and separations provided. Changes to any classification are made with reference to those factors.

Security concerns are taken care of by promulgating Prohibited or Restricted Areas. As I am sure you aware.

The London TMA and various Control Zones within it are neither.

Difficult to see how having Class A airspace would stop a hijacker, or terrorist in their own flying machine, from doing damage. It's not as if they'd bounce off the CAS boundary or obey their ATC clearance is it ??

:}

[ATCO Two]

Woah P R!

You're preaching to the converted here! I would love to see the London Control Zone re-classified as Class C.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sorry mate, misunderstood you. It's been a long day :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<You're preaching to the converted here! I would love to see the London Control Zone re-classified as Class C>>

Aarrgghh.. Up until the time I retired I was utterly convinced that ALL controlled airspace should be Class A... but maybe regulations have changed?

What would be the safety benefits for the LCTZ if it was re-classified?? Having seen some utterly, appallingly terrifying incidents involving twitchers my attitude was to keep them well away from "real" aeroplanes. Sorry if that offends anyone...

[yaffs]

you wanna try working with/against class E airspace HD!!!!! -

yaffs

[Tinpot Radio]

<<Having seen some utterly, appallingly terrifying incidents involving twitchers my attitude was to keep them well away from "real" aeroplanes">>

My bookwork may be a tad rusty, but in Class C airspace we would still have to keep those "twitchers" as you call them away from the real aeroplanes as happens now. There would however be no requirement to separate "twitchers" from other "twitchers" in the London zone making GA operations an awful lot more expeditious and easier for me and fellow tinpotters!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<There would however be no requirement to separate "twitchers" from other "twitchers" in the London zone making GA operations an awful lot more expeditious and easier for me and fellow tinpotters!>>

In other words, reduce the safety factor. Sorry, I don't hold with that. Two twitchers bang into each other over a built up area, of which there are plenty in the London CTZ..... What can be good about that?

[Bright-Ling]

But HD - it saves them almost 8 minutes in flying time! :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<But HD - it saves them almost 8 minutes in flying time! >>

Oh right... oh yes... I forgot. OK, make it Class Z..

[MikeJeff]

Obviously going to go against the grain here! BUT within the Rules of the Air, "twitchers" have as much right to be anywhere as "real" aircraft! The airspace around large airports is there to keep all aircraft away from landing and departing traffic.

Surely that's just as easy in Class C airspace.. as for twitchers colliding, it would cause no more damage than if it happened in Solent's class D. What keeps most of us out of the London Zone is the inability to comply with the rules of the air..

As for 8 minutes saved flying time - it's not relevant. Small aircraft ARE allowed in Class A/C with ATC permission, and if they want to ask for that permission then you guys shouldn't complain. Not that many of you do!

[ATCO Two]

I am afraid that the latest tenet is that UK airspace is a national asset, and that there should be equal access to all users. Tinpot's interpretation of Class C is correct. Class D works well for Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, London City etc., so there is no logical reason why the London Control Zone should be Class A. And why is there a greater risk of light aircraft colliding over Central London than any other built up area?

[Scott Voigt]

Actually, in class C you can't keep the FLIBS as we call them here out... You have more control but not complete. I think that you are looking for Class B where you have more control but can still work VFR's too.

regards

Scott

[EastCoaster]

From one who works a Class C CTR, you can keep the "twitchers" out (called something else here, but it may not be considered so polite by some)! If safety requires you are perfectly at liberty to refuse access, but be prepared to have to give a reasonable explanation.

If Class C classification works perfectly fine for every CTR in Ireland, don't see why it shouldn't work in London! OK, the majority are nowhere near as busy as LHR, but Dublin certainly certainly isn't far behind!

[Geffen]

Don't mean to be cruel but dublin is almost 300,000 movements behind LHR, according to ACI dublin isn't even in the top 30 busiest airports on either movements or passengers. Only figures I could find for dublin for 1999 170,421 movements and 4,777,137 passengers.