Safe Landing despite Loss of Controls

[Simon Hradecky]

A Lufthansa City-Line Avroliner RJ85, flight number LH 5386 from Frankfurt/Main to Graz, made an emergency landing yesterday into Graz Thalerhof, Austria, after a total failure of primary controls. The crew steered the airplane purely on engines for the successful emergency landing. All 56 people on board could leave the airplane unhurt.

The crew noticed technical problems with elevator and ailerons while still in cruise and tried 42 minutes to solve the issue before attempting the landing, touching down at 16:57 UTC (planned arrival at 16:15 UTC). Basically all fire engines and ambulances of the city of Graz were awaiting the jet preparing for a crash landing, with all hospitals in the city at high alert as well.

A Lufthansa spokeswoman said, that the crew did a miracle to get the jet safely onto the ground. Passengers of the airplane said in an interview today, that they prepared to meet their maker after the announcement of the crew.

Other jets, loosing their primary controls entirely, certainly were not as lucky: United Flight 232 (DC-10), which crash landed in Sioux City (185 of 285 people surviving) or Japan Airlines 123 (B747), which crashed near Tokyo (only 1 of 509 people on board survived).

Servus aus Salzburg
Simon Hradecky

[Basil]

and the DHL A300 in Baghdad :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

They obviously earned their whole life's salary in an hour.

Thank Heaven they're safe and for their amazing airmanship..

[Old Smokey]

A huge "Bravo, Well Done!" to the flight crew, you have done your profession proud.

The only negative side of a wonderful story is the implication of a "miracle" by the Lufthansa spokesperson. A miracle implies divine intervention. The truth is that PILOT INTERVENTION, after the designers, engineers, and "Let's have pilotless passenger aircraft" pundits screwed up AGAIN, leaving pilots to save the day.

Is it possible to know the crew's names, I'd like to add them to my list of heros, Al Haynes et al......

[Simon Hradecky]

Smokey,

>>Is it possible to know the crew's names, I'd like to add them to
>>my list of heros, Al Haynes et al......

At this time the names of the crew have not been released - I also do not yet know the tail number of the airplane.

Your mention of Al Haynes certainly is right - that was the first name and event that came to my mind as well, when I first heard of the encounter with more than 12 hours delay today in the morning.

Simon

[Robert Vesco]

Great job! :ok:

Here (http://www.kleinezeitung.at/nachrichten/chronik/artikel/_627962/index.jsp) is a link (in German) for those interested.

Grüß gott! (Talking about divine intervention) ;)

[repulo]

Very well done by the crew if the facts are right so far. Does anybody have further details?

[Dani]

The source says that elevator and ailerons where blocked, so the rudder still could have worked. It also says that after trying out they commanded the aircraft with the engines (but this does not exclude the possibility of partial inputs from the rudder).
According to my knowledge, Avro RJ have mechanical flight controls, coppled to the yokes via cables. All control surfaces are independant, no hydraulic input.
This is a really amazing story, and those pilots really showed their professionalism. Not only big plane pilots can be heroes!!

Dani

[Capt. J]

I'll add my well done to the crew :ok: Like Old Smokey said, I'll need to add them to my 'hero' list :) They've done a great job on saving all the lives!

[Simon Hradecky]

Basil,

>>and the DHL A300 in Baghdad

While that A300 certainly was severly struck and had many systems damaged, amongst them one engine, they did not suffer loss of controls.

With one engine out they would have crashed right away out of 8000 feet, had they not have had at least some control via the primary controls.

Simon

[Krueger]

A very well done for the LH Crew. It's always reassuring to know that when the s%&&t hits the fan, it's still a pilot that saves the day (and not a computer).
:ok:

[DoctorA300]

Simon,
The DHL A300 did loose all flt controls almost immediately, the LH engine had recieved some damage, but it was still operating normally.
Brgds
Doc

[Zlin246]

Not the first time I've heard of incidents with 146's. Cracking on wing skin panels, hydraulic system failure, and speed brake locked open to name but a few.

[Dani]

I just talked to an Avro/146 pilot: Basically it is possible to fly and land with only thrust and rudder. With some operators, it is trained sometimes in the simulator. Nonetheless noone tried this out in real life!

[Simon Hradecky]

After having an interview with the Captain the spokeswoman has now changed the report about the incident: the controls were jammed indeed (co-pilot flying), but after breaking the connection between the two control columns the captains yoke did work properly and the landing was carried out with full control. She also said, that her reports of earlier today, that the pilots landed while steering on engines, were premature and based on collegue's report from Graz.

Simon

[FlapsOne]

A superlative performance by this crew and a credit to the profession.

Miracle? Divine intervention? Well, I don't mind those terms being used about my fellow aviators efforts. It certainly fits this LH crew!!

[bigbird]

Used to fly the aircraft, started reading this thread and thought it's impossible to lose all flight controls, read on, and then it struck me.

Yet again ppruners why don't we just stick to facts. Ok report the aircraft landed with control problems but then why all this stupid speculation about total loss of flight controls, from ill imformed people with no knowlage of the aircraft or its systems.

I rarely visit this forum now for this very reason.
Well done to the crew involved.

[JW411]

From what I have heard on the grapevine the crew suffered a control jam and effected a breakout as per the aircraft memory items.

Control was regained by the captain and the aircraft landed in accordance with the the procedure in the Emergency Checklist.

I am told by those that know that this is a commonly rehearsed manoeuvre in the simulator but very well done to the crew indeed.

[White Knight]

Zlin246 - many different aircraft types have had many different kinds of problems. Not just the mighty Avro:cool:

[hotprop]

UAVs anyone ?

How do you program a computer for this kind of failure ?
Good thing there are humans around sometimes !

Top notch guys !:ok:

[FlapsOne]

Indeed I have just re-read the last posting on the first page and it's not so miraculous after all - still a bit scary though!

If it happens in a computer 'controlled' aircraft - just re-boot the computer!

[BoeingMEL]

Sorry guys...but what a load of cr*p! So.... the PH landed with all engines running and with all controls working normally!

This story - as originally posted - had all the credibility of a tabloid "exclusive"..... and with about as much technical accuracy too.

My worry is that so many Ppruners should accept the story on face-value without stopping for a moment and thinking it through. bm

[NigelOnDraft]

Was a recent AAIB bulletin including a 146 and this "break out" feature. I'd never heard of it before the Egypt Air accident, where it was used in the "fight" for control. And I was on the 767 at the time - just alluded to in the Tech Manual...

NoD

[Simon Hradecky]

Bigbirg and BoeingMel,

>>why all this stupid speculation about total loss of flight
>>controls, from ill imformed people with no knowlage of the
>>aircraft or its systems.

>>This story - as originally posted - had all the credibility of a
>>tabloid "exclusive"..... and with about as much technical
>>accuracy too.

The only problem here is, that this first story was released by Lufthansa themselves. Tabloids as well as press did not carry the incident - despite the huge preparation for the landing in Graz - until Lufthansa came out with that explanation, only revoked in the afternoon. I too would not have bothered with just press reports ...

Simon

[square leg]

First of all wait for the F-A-C-T-S;)

Secondly the Avro Rj 85 can be flown with "split" controls. In other words if the Capt's or F/O's controls block, they can be disconnected and be used independently.

Thirdly, not all the Avro's controls are mechanical. ELEV and AIL yes, but the RUD is hydraulically actuated (yes you can still force it to move with brute leg force).

And last but not least, if the ailerons block and you've only got rudder and elevator, you can consider slitting the elevator and using both surfaces independently to roll the A/C (works in the sim). This needs a co-ord kid or a great team.

Left column forward/right column backwards = RIGHT turn and vv.

And really last but not least: The crew did a GREAT job, irrespective of what happened. Typical LH;)

[MOR]

Flying with the controls split is no big deal, not quite sure why so many are so quick to believe this nonsense. Armchair pilots and PPLs, I suppose. The only way they could have suffered a "total loss of flight controls" would be if somebody had gone down into the avionics bay (accessible from the cockpit) with a large pair of boltcutters, and cut all the control cables.

Zlin246

For your information, no 146/RJ has ever crashed as a result of mechanical failure of any kind. Whatever you think you may have heard from your third cousin twice removed about the 146/RJ, it is probably apocryphal nonsense.

All aircraft have defects. Some more than others. The 146/RJ is remarkably clean in that regard. Being British, it can tolerate a lot of problems before it becomes unflyable.

I'm not British, BTW, but I recognise a bit of quality engineering when I see it...

[AN2 Driver]

For all those who knew before it was all cr*p... .

If an airline releases a statement, I think one can hardly fault a poster here to bring it to the forum. If the airline itself does not know what happens to their own airplanes, then they have to carry the consequences. Slamming those who post such things is way out of order IMHO.

Yes, it is embarrassing for all of us who believed the official LH statement and reported it in different forums. However, even after the downgrade, or particularly after it, it is still a "nice to know" item, as I for one have learnt a bit of something on how the flight controls are designed in the RJ's.

However, what I see in this forum is also a bit disturbing in another way.

I agree that with todays press, appearing to be the enemy no 1 to many here, there is a distinct problem in overdramatizing often trivial events (which I do not consider this one to be, despite the "downgrade"). However, if we want to reduce this place to posting the official reports 2 years after an incident, then why bother.

As I take it from the title of this section or even the forum name, there is a space here for rumours and incident reporting that is in our interest as participants of the aviation industry. Occasionally, that will mean that wrongly transmitted stuff gets here, albeit in good faith, like this one.

If the consensus here (if such a thing exists) is, that incidents may only be posted after the official reports are out, then of course a lot of threads here are indeed amiss and of no use. Then again, there are other places where professionals from the industry meet and exchange information.

Best regards

AN2 Driver.

[Cap 56]

I agree with most posters that the crew has done a terrific job.

However, on the RJ you can split the Ailerons and/or Elevator in a second and I would therefore not qualify this incident as a landing with complete loss of controls.

I would however state that the BA 146 / RJ is a piece of crap not only in the way it was designed and performes but most efinitely in the way the AOM / QRH are written.

I can hardly imagine how this thin ever got certified, but then again it was a political project to create jobs at all cost.

[Croqueteer]

Cap 56, I would hazard a guess that you have never flown the 146, and that you are Austrailian.

[AN2 Driver]

CAP56,

if you read the last few messages, you'll find out that the controls were only lost temporarily, until they were separated, most probably as by the QRH or memory items out of the same of which you don't seem to be so fond of.

Apart from that, I guess an aircraft with the safety record of the RJ/146 series must have some things going for them. So far, as I recall, the only hull losses were induced either by flying into terrain or in one case by an in flight shootout, not really the airplanes fault.

For what it was designed, I always found it a pretty good machine and performer, such as operation into short fields, over short distances e.t.c. Lots of redundancy on these 4 engines and as was shown on the controls as well.

Best regards

AN2 Driver.

[Passenger 9]

According to one of the Monday local rags. The crew landed the aircraft after 40 minutes and a "technically complicated" manoeuver.

What ever.

When I fly as a passenger, which happens occasionally ..... then I would say that, the crew did what they had to do and are, lets face it paid to do. Thats why they are there, not only to get the aircraft from A to B just like any high street bus driver, but also to get it back on the ground in the event of something like this.

What ever, they did their job correctly and full marks to them for that.

The 146/RJ is a good aircraft.

If it was an airbus, say an a320 etc, I am not so sure what the computers would have done, and I am also not sure if the pilots would have known what the computers would have done either! I am not an airbus driver, I tend to aviate the more traditional types.
Maybe someone who knows what they are talking about can tell us all what would happen if this happened in an airbus? Oh and please no airbus sales people who only say "the software is perfect and that is the pilots fault if anything goes wrong" :E

Yes, in general, we need pilots in the cockpit and a full over ride for automated systems. :ok:

[ukeng]

On the 320's anyway total loss of the electronic flight control systems leaves you with just the rudder and the horizontal stabilizer for control.
Have seen it flown and land like this in the sim but no sure if it's part of the normal sim training (anyone?)
Highly unlikely scenario unless you've lost both engines and your RAT though....

Apologies in advance for taking this thread a little off course ;)

[Dani]

Complete loss of controls is not only a problem for FBW (fly by wire) aircraft (like Airbus, B777 etc), but generally for all modern big jets. They all do not have a direct connection of the control surfaces and the cockpit, like the DC-10/MD-11, all Boeings, old A300/310. Remember that all lost-of-control-accidents happened to non-FBW so far (was the A300 in Bagdad a 600er?). When you loose all hydraulics, you also loose control. A tube full of oil is much more vulnerable than a branch of small cables, which you can route anywhere through the fuselage.

On the Airbus we train this "complete loss of control" to a certain extend. You still need the emergency generator for electricity and one hydraulic system. You can steer then with rudders, elevator trim and asymetrical trust. It can work with good team work. We managed it on try number one.

When all electricity is lost, then it is not possible to continue. I sometimes think about NEMPs (nuclear electro-magnetic impulses). Those would be the end for a FBW aircraft. But also for the rest of the world...

Dani

[safetypee]

CRAP56 Your view of drills and checklists reflects a common mistake that there will be an SOP for all situations. The BAe146/Avro RJ QRH has been revised several times during the last 20 years to incorporate lessons learned.

The Avro RJ control system is a very well designed and robust system, but even for an apparently simple system, it is impossible to provide a drill for every method of failure, particularly where human interaction is required. The crew has to first detect the failure and take initial action; fortunately, in the Avro the instinctive control break-out usually suffices. However, crew analysis is required to determine what control remains (which aileron, trim, roll spoiler is active if at all), what options are available, and what consequences may ensue (e.g. control regained below freezing level). Little of this activity can be captured in a QRH, thus the need for intelligent crew, exercising good airmanship to ensure continued safe flight. We should celebrate successes as shown by this incident and, as humans, learn lessons as necessary.

Yes, the QRH is being rewritten again to keep pace with modern training, crew experience levels, and human abilities and attitudes.
No, I have not detected any change in human error, or the human ability to criticise without first seeking the facts.

[Cap 56]

Dani

If I recall correctly and it has been a while, the B 777 has cables directly linked to spoiler N° 4 and 11 and one cable directly to the elev.

Croqueteer

I have had a rating on the RJ and must say that it was a pleasant thing to fly, however as far as ergonomics is concerned it was a real nightmare. As many others, I got used to playing the piano.

As far as manuals and QRH is concerned is it obvious, to any pilot that has ever flown this aircraft, that the documents were not written or checked by a pilot but written by an engineer with his head in the clouds. The Boeing and Airbus manuals are by any standard far better organized and clear.

Anyway, BAe has chosen to do things their way and as such they made the transition to this Aircraft not as straightforward. All those who have gone trough the process will have build an experience that they would never have acquired otherwise.

I do not think that an aircraft that requires you to depressurize for landing in case of icing conditions when the APU is U/s can be called a great performer. And landing with V ref -7 kts feels a bit strange but that’s the way it is.

Not to mention the fact that you have to be carefull when doing the control checks in gusty winds to avoid the controls from disconnecting as per AOM.

Safetypee

Your view of drills and checklists reflects a common mistake that there will be an SOP for all situations. The BAe146/Avro RJ QRH has been revised several times during the last 20 years to incorporate lessons learned.

If you have read any of my postings on SOP the you will know that I have stated "SOP are Standard Ops Procedures" and only that , they do not cover all situations.

Good job done by the crew but do not like the aircraft.

Safetypee

Your view of drills and checklists reflects a common mistake that there will be an SOP for all situations. The BAe146/Avro RJ QRH has been revised several times during the last 20 years to incorporate lessons learned.

If you have read any of my postings on SOP the you will know that I have stated "SOP are Standard Ops Procedures" and only that , they do not cover all situations.

Good job done by the crew but do not like the aircraft.

[BoeingMEL]

I have had to read and re-read these postings several times to believe them..... and truly believe that the various responses to the original posting are depressing in the extreme.

Why are so many calling the crew heroes?

How can you possibly know that they did a superb job (other than getting down in one piece?)

They had a technical problem which seems to have been promptly resolved, resulting in an approach and landing with all engines and full control authority.

Dear God, there'll be suggestions for medals soon for those heroes who experience an invertor failure soon.

"Hero pilot struggled to control aircraft after 5 second loss of AC power!"

bm

[arfur-sixpence]

The split controls systems reminds me of the VC10.

In that case the control surfaces (although hydraulically powered) are actually linked to the control column by cables with the Captain's yoke controlling the ailerons and the FO's the spoilers (or vice versa - it was a while back, you know!). Then the two yokes are mechanically linked so that each driver can operate both controls.

Then if one set of cables stick, you separate the two yokes and whoever has roll authority gets to land the aeroplane. It's happened at least once, if not twice, withing the RAF fleet.

[Old Smokey]

BoeingMEL,

I, amongst others, did not have the benefit of hind-sight as you did when we made our initial laudatory responses following the initial post. The initial news item originated from Lufthansa's own press release, and airline spokespersons typically understate the significance of incidents and accidents. In that context, we, the initial posters, offered laudatory comments to the crew's heroic efforts. If the airline's own press release had been correct, then the crew DID a superb job, I would consider any crew capable of safely landing an aircraft with ALL flight controls inoperative as having accomplished a superlative job. Many have died in similar circumstances.

Later wisdom in hindsight comes in the knowledge that control reversion / control split enabled the crew to make a relatively normal landing following correct Abnormal / Emergency procedures.

I therefore 'downgrade' my comments to the crew to "Well Done!", and my comments to those pontificating with the benefit of hindsight to "Bad Show!"

[steamchicken]

The Kleine Zeitung is in my experience a pile of toilet paper, like the Kronen Zeitung but worse.

[Croqueteer]

Cap 56, I think the manual says start to flare at Vref, and you will touch down at about Vref -7. If you are down to Vref-7 before you flare, you are in for a tail strike.

[AN2 Driver]

BoeingMEL

(other than getting down in one piece?)

I guess to all on board, their relatives, and not least the airline, that is what counts in the end.

I really take issue with the fact that whenever a "well done" is posted in this forum, it appears there will be an immediate "so what, that is his job" reply.

Yes. We all do our jobs, we all have times when things go right or wrong. I prefer to not only hear of the aftermaths of things that have gone wrong, but also of situations that have been handled well and professionally.

After all, the crew involved did not queue up to go into the limelight, it was their own airline who got them there by mistake, they did their job, did it well and I don't see anything wrong with a pat on the back for a non routine situation well managed.

Best regards

AN2 Driver

[square leg]

Croqueteer sez it right.

The Avro Rj is not "landed" at Vref - 7 kts. The landing starts at 50'. There you should have Vref. Then that is bled off till you (ideally) have Vref - 7 kts upon wheel touchdown. This (BAe) method keeps you within the TDZ and you hardly need brakes like this unless flying to LHR (minimal runway occupancy time) or LCY (obviously).

Obviously corrections for wind/icing would be added (max 14 kts).

safe flying:D

[arcniz]

Dani says:
I sometimes think about NEMPs (nuclear electro-magnetic impulses). Those would be the end for a FBW aircraft. But also for the rest of the world...

If the source of the EMP is a proximate nuclear explosion, then likely you have other problems, in addition to the possibility of being in a very large glider sans systems.

BBBBBUT, as I understand it, Mother Nature, in her capricious and pan-galactic way, can quite conceivably bring in both local and also VERY large (global) pulses of EMP-style energy that will do the same trick.

If a bit of mega-EMP from somewhere out there in the galaxies suddenly happens, it will be a bad day for laptops, cell-phones and mp3 players....and for all-electronic anythings that might be hurtling through space at the time, including most automobiles, elevators and gyro-stabilized scooters.

But will that be the end number for aircraft with electronics-intensive control systems? We know how to fairly well manage the EMP problem in flying machines......I really wonder if our current generations of commercial aircraft have that particular magic designed-in and installed - or not?

Does anybody here know if current FBW aircraft have EMP ride-thru capability? It would seem an oversight to leave it out.

[The 06]

Just for Info....

It was the D-AVRO (what a coincedence!)

It didn't happen in cruise but on the approach, after disconnecting the AP. The crew made a G/A and solved the problem. Without rushing they prepared for an emergency landing. They landed (unspectacular) safe! A 'well done' to my colleages!
:ok: