QF and J* Pilots - One Happy Family?

[Cactus Jack]

Well, its finally out. The MOU for the integration of J* pilots into QF mainline and vice versa. Both groups need to vote on it before it is approved.

Just wondering what are the thoughts of the members of both groups?

Personally, paying for an A320 endorsement is abhorent IMHO. And I'm not sure whether some of the J* guys will be interested because they will need to pass the QF selection criteria, something they have already missed out on.

So what happens if it gets voted down?

[commander adama]

From what I hear both sides will vote it down.

[spinout]

I can see it now……… not

Excuse me but can I apply to become a second officer?
I currently work for you and I have endorsements on B717 and A320 with thousands of hours, I would really like to be accepted as a real Qantas Pilot….

I am a real Qantas pilot and I demand my right to go from Second officer to command on the A320, this right was given to me by my father who was one of the original cadets and has been passed down from generation to generation. Pay for the endorsement I don’t know what the problem is I spent more money on renovating my swimming pool.
:D

[rescue 1]

the J* guys will be interested because they will need to pass the QF selection criteria

If that is the case I would hardly call it an integration agreement - seems more like a one sided arrangement for QF main!

Don't think that it would get my vote.

This idea that QF have the best recruitment process in the world is flawed - we all know its "blue star"!

[cunninglinguist]

spinout, NJS guys/gals been going through similar situation for years ( yeh, I know they are not owned by QF ) QF reckon they are alright to fly around with 90 QF pax on an overcomplicated pommy bucket of rivets, in command, but not good enough to make tea and coffee on a long haul flight, go figure.:confused:

[Cactus Jack]

As is probably obvious from my original post, I'm not a big advocate of this agreement either. But spinout, I think you have probably warped things a little.

First, a second officer in QF will likely earn as much as, if not more than an A320 Capt in J*. So, some J* pilots may find the lifestyle combined with the moolah quite attractive. Spin, your suggestion that being a SO in QF isn't quite the bees knees just doesnt work. A lot of guys want to stay a SO forever because it is a good job. Where else do you get paid that much money and do that little work?

And your second statement that being a SO in QF has a god given right (or paternal!) to a 320 command is wrong and somewhat offensive. I'm a bit past being a SO, but from a personal viewpoint, my father was a working class man who never was in a position to influence my career. And most of us in QF are in this category. I'll not argue that there seems to have been some instances of favourtism based upon family, but they are rare.

Adama is likely right. This seems to have been a waste of time by all parties.

[spinout]

The absurdity is that a Jetstar captain (Qantas employee) with a B717 and A320 endorsement with thousands of hours has to undergo the full Interview process including psychometric and skills test to transfer to mainline as a second officer.

I also understand that the majority of mainline pilots are normal people who have worked hard to get where they are today, it’s just a shame the old guard/original cadets haven’t been able to accept that the process has flaws.

The interview process is fine for new employees off the street but to those who are already in the company and performing their duties to the Qantas standard, it is totally a waste of time and proves nothing, or should I say proves the system is flawed as is testament to those who have been found not up to scratch but are able to obtain employment with Cathay, Dragon, Air Hong Kong, Eva and Virgin. (have i missed any)
:rolleyes:

Cactus Jack I did not mean to offend just state the extremes...

I also understand an agreement has all but been agreed to between Eastern/Sunstate management and Jetstar Management, I wonder what that will hold... maybe Jetstar will only take pilots who have failed the Qantas Mainline interview process....
;)

[jokeStar]

Spinout, can't agree more.

Take for example the Qantas pilots who are ex Australian Airlines (TN) when they were bought out by Qantas back in the early 90's. Now I could be wrong here, but I am fairly certain that the hundreds of pilots involved there, were not put through stage one to fly a plane with the white roo on the tail.

Can someone please explain what the difference is with a pilot working at Jetstar, which was bought out by Qantas, and why they would have to do stage one etc?



:rolleyes:

[The Librarian]

As far as Second officers converting to A320 commands, you will probably see quite a bit of it because nearly a third of the 400 SO's are ex Ansett and a lot of them have plenty of Airbus FBW time.
As far as Jetstar captains becoming SO's in main line. Why not. I've got nearly 20 years in the industry in both the left and right hand seat of airliners and in the last 2 years the back seat. The SO job is what you make of it. Good money, HEAPS and HEAPS of time off, a chance to sample some of worlds better beers and 99% of the guys I work with are great blokes. The job does lack a little bit of professional satisfaction but I manage to swat the flying bug every now and then in a C172.

[Cactus Jack]

None taken, spin.;) I understand your sentiments, and quite frequently agree!

I also understand an agreement has all but been agreed to between Eastern/Sunstate management and Jetstar Management, I wonder what that will hold.

Interesting...? Haven't heard anything here. Care to explain what this one is about?

[rehab]

Perhaps you clowns should read the MOU before sprouting off on this forum.

J* will be given "ghost" seniority numbers in the QF list so they could stay as an A320 Captain and then go into QF as an A330, B767, AXXX, BXXX, whatever CAPTAIN.

No J* pilot will have to start as an S/O if they don't want to. It may be 15+ years or so, but hey, not a bad semi-retirement plan. Early 30's A320 Command now, mid 40's A330 Command, not bad I say. Wish I were in J*.

The selection criteria bit is crap, but it's a long way off and sense may prevail. Should be just another endorsement, and may well be.

I can't see why J* would knock this back, the deal is so one sided, makes you wonder who AIPA is really representing.

[Icebreaker]

rehab,
thing is, who would, after enjoying the domestic flying lifestyle for the 15+ years as you say, want to firstly pay for an AXXX endorsment then live out of a suitcase and fly 11 hour sectors in the same, just bigger AXXX aircraft? It's only the extra pay. I'd rather spend my time with my family than sleeping in a hotel overseas recovering from jet lag. Domestic flying rules! The J* pilots will knock back the deal as will the QF pilots....big waste of time.

[Captain Can't]

I just hope both parties don't just vote with their emotions and take the time to appreiciate the work thats gone into this MOU, having said that; I'm still to check it out! :rolleyes:

[Cactus Jack]

Agree with your sentiments entirely, Capt C, but therein lies the problem.

The work that has gone in is futile if it is not what the members want. And there was virtually zero consultation with the membership on this one. We were continuously hit over the head with the old 'its this or nothing at all' line.

The membership would probably prefer the 'nothing' option to this load of crap.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Having gone through the documentation fairly quickly, it is pretty much what I expected: certainly not too bad for Jet* pilots but absolutely nothing in it for QF pilots, unless paying for endorsement so that you can have one of the 7 in 20 positions and earn 40% less pay is considered a win...... :confused:

I'm told it's more strategically oriented - designed so that Jet* pilots want to come onboard wth AIPA, thus shoring up the bargaining power within Australia in the future. That concept makes huge sense. But why go through all this MOU stuff to reach that point? EVERY Jet* pilot should see the merit of joining AIPA even without these MOU's. Why did we just not sell the benefits of AIPA membership to Jet*?

I doubt very much QF pilots are going to be very supportive of the MOU's unless they believe it's the only solution to the bigger problem. As it stands, most QF pilots won't have a bar of the offer of Jet* employment in these MOU's. That will be a big blow to the strategic plan and play into the hands of "divide-and-conquer" masters we have.

[zone]

Quite a few of those ex Ansett A320 guys are off to Singapore to crew the new start up. Will there be any left?

Cost of an A330 endorsemnt after an A320 endorsement? Not much. Super Annuation benifits for Q A330 Captains versus Jetstar Captains would be significant (Re RBLs) let alone the pay! It could be attractive for Jetstar pilots. (I'm not in Jetstar)

[Karmakoma]

Anything in the works for the QF regional guys? re: Group progression?:confused:

[Captain Can't]

cj;
The membership would probably prefer the 'nothing' option to this load of crap.
Once rejected, where would either parties stand? What would be 'nothing'? the times are a little too interesting for my liking!
Karmakoma; perhaps that could be a good way to get the regionals (sunnies/eaa) in on the act, progression onto a jet? (if wanted! not the be all/end all of course)

[Cactus Jack]

CC. I certainly agree my friend. Some boredom around about now would be good. All this 'change' is really taxing my pacemaker. And 'nothing' may be a little too close to the mark.

I guess the question that poses is: Even though this MOU seems to do little for us in QF, will we be better off with it in place?

The other question that could be posed to the Impulse pilots is: If you fellas vote no to this deal, would you still be willing to join AIPA?

[Icebreaker]

Cactus,
who are 'Impulse pilots'?

[Heavy Metal]

It's a big 5h1t sandwich, and both pilot bodies need to take a bite. We are either together against management, or we aren't. Watch for the record profit on August 19th. If we aren't, the mainline side is now in a new EBA period, and I for one, would be happy to flex a little industrial muscle.

[Cactus Jack]

Bit facetious there, Ice? The MOU still actually refers to J* pilots as Impulse Pilots Council.

[GT-R]

I hope Jetstar pilots dont consider joining AIPA, and I would suggest you don't, AIPA dont do jack **** for the majority of QF pilots, you guys would be so mistreated you have no idea....Hang on, last president already did that didn't he?

[Cactus Jack]

As embarassing as it is, GTR is right.

[bonvol]

I'd like to respond to the bit about AIPA being useless but I'm too busy with my pinkies calculating the LH Standby call out credits the company have deliberately spivved us out of.

QF knowingly stuff up your pay and then ask you to calculate the fix and let them know! It's quite bizarre what goes on in QF these days.

[aresti]

Sadly, I must also agree with GTR. AIPA do nothing for us, so stick with the IPC, you couldn't be worse off !


QF knowingly stuff up your pay and then ask you to calculate the fix and let them know! It's quite bizarre what goes on in QF these days.

Quite bizarre indeed........ Quite bizarre that there is nothing to be heard from our so called 'union' on this and a myriad of other matters. I guess they were too busy making sure their sons and daughters had seniority numbers while serving time at Air North or J* Asia....... or maybe too busy serving up the **** they say is "the best deal we could hope for".......... or signing off on the London pub...................... etc etc etc.

I believe there is some voting to be done soon. Time for a change of direction me thinks, and a leadership that actually looks after the members interests.

[BLO MOI]

AIPA
Another
Insider's
Personal
Agenda

:E

[Capt Fathom]

Poor Bonvol...maybe $10 in the hand for a full standby plus callout...ouch! I'm sure you're made more out of overpaid allowances than that. Donate it to charity, they need it more than you do. :ok:

[longjohn]

Too True, and too sad.

AIPA seem too focused on achieving Qantas goals and not the members.

It would appear correct that union management do not have a grip on the real issues concerning the membership, particularly those who represent the future.

Those of you who know me would know the significance of this, I am seriously considering the future of my AIPA membership.

Why? Because AIPA management works on the assumption that you are 24 when you join QF and you will have your 'turn' one day when things turn around for you.

Furthermore, even for the younger crew, they seem to ignore the issues and threats of today in favour of looking after the 'lifestyle' issues of senior crew.

I believe that unions should be egalitarian, not based on proportional representation according to seniority.

Unfortunately in mine and many others cases they are about a decade out of step and I don't see what the advantages are to me of supporting such a regieme.:ugh:

[Cactus Jack]

Donating it to charity is a good idea, Fathom. If you could get it out of the company in the first place. And overpaid allowances? Theres no such animal in QF, let me tell you.

LJ. Sadly your views reflect a significant proportion of the membership. Gotta wonder why they just decided to go merrily off down this path with J*, without ever stopping to consider if this deal they are putting together is palatable to either membership.

AIPA have lost it. You just need to look at who was appointed to the new short haul representative position to illustrate my point. He is probably the most unpopular QF pilot in history, people are actually calling him a 'hazard to aviation', and yet he snivels his way into this position.

Lord help us!:ugh:

[Icebreaker]

Cactus...yeah, couldn't resist. :D

Me thinks the Jetpulse pilots would be better off going the virgin way with the AFAP and leave AIPA to deal with their own mess.

[spinout]

There is also the TWU who can represent pilots, and I understand already represent some Q pilots. who have resigned from AIPA....:rolleyes:

[rescue 1]

Maybe I have got this wrong - Impulse get bigger Jets, so AIPA become interested in increasing its membership.

Eastern/Sunstate/Jetconnect get big jets, and I guess they too will be invited into the Mens Club?

It makes sense for all QF associated company pilots to come under the one umbrella, however the umbrella needs to be big enough to ensure that no one on the edge gets wet.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

I think at the end of the day no one is happy. A perfect example of the divisive techniques used by major companies these days.

DM

[Pete Conrad]

Whats up DM? The gloss worn off?........Love the paintjob hey?

[Agent Mulder]

Well this issue has now become a focus on the other bulletin board frequented by chaps who seriously believe that by mouthing off they will somehow influence what happens. Qrewroom readers should heed the advice " It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt."

Management read the board, (as does Dick Smith and others by the way), regularly to assess topical issues and gather opinion on the employees on their fleets. To be a 24 year old F/O with 3 years in the company does not look good when you start whinging. If you don't like it F*** OFF!!! There are 10000 others who would take your job in an instant. Never believe your own hype!

This is about coverage. Nothing more nothing less. It is about all Qantas Group Flight Crew being covered by AIPA and gaining the benefits of that coverage. If you guys can't see that then your futures are bleak. There are 1000 plus scabs in Qantas, they just have never been given the chance to have a go. You tough blokes that write all the bull**** on Qrewroom and here. how long would you be able to go without an income? How long before your wife left you or nagged your ass off to go back. You are all so tough but have never faced it.

So what are you gonna do. Spit in the face of AIPA and the Jetstar Pilots and say F*** YOU!! Then what is your strategy for advancing your futures? Please tell me, I'd love to know. There are a number of marginally educated people slipping through the net that seem to think like Trade Unionists. Wake Up fools!! Qantas owns 4, that's right 4, Airlines in the region doing exactly what you annointed ones do for half the money. What do you think will happen if you say F*** YOU?

You WILL be marginalised and played off in the race to the bottom. You WILL be stuck in your current rank as growth ceases in mainline. You WILL have played in to the hands of Ian Oldmeadow in his attempts to make this profession a Trade.

Vote YES for the deal and seek to bring the bottom up. Don't say F*** YOU and look to your colleagues to dig in to hold your position.. It has been tried before remember. Only this time the average property costs $500,000 and the average mortgage is a lot more than it was in 1989.

Think and plan for the future. Learn from the past. My dear Father always said, "If you f** Up once and learn that's OK, If you make the same F*** UP twice then you are a F****** Idiot!"

COVERAGE EQUALS LEVERAGE!!!

Unite fellow professionals and make this a career worth aspiring to, not a trade afterthought..


VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[schweinhund]

All you seem to do is say F*** in that post, Mulder. Your logic is certainly flawed.

I agree on the concept of uniting the associations. So if we want to unite, then lets do it. Lets not go through all this bullsh1t about 'exchanging career opportunities', because QF pilots don't want to earn the pittance that Jetw@nker earn, and they in turn know they cant pass the selection criteria for QF, because they havent managed to previously, so it holds no attraction to them either.

So why go through all this unnecessary crap? All it does is tell management that we as QF pilots endorse the sh1t pay that Jetwit earn. There would have been better ways to do this. But AIPA of course, don't bother asking the members. They just go off and waste our resources chasing their tails yet again.

This concept of uniting is simplicity in itself. Just do it. Dont squabble. Dont do underhanded deals. Just do it.

Horrible thought really, but AIPA should probably go back to worrying about foil meal trays, and such things that are important to an antiqated 400 captain. They at least were successful there....

[vigi-one]

Agent Mulder

try 7 Airlines , QANTAS, Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Australian, Eastern, Jetconnect, Sunstate.

Got to be something in that.

[Agent Mulder]

schweinhund,

Being the fount of all knowledge, can you please inform me of how many Jetstar pilots have previously applied to Qantas and been rejected? I think you will find that the numbers are not as great as you think.

Sure, some may never get past the tests. However why not give fellow pilots the opportunity to at least have a go. Why does this threaten you so much.

Who says that Qantas pilots are not interested in Jetstar? I know of at least 12 who are and more are coming out of the woodwork everyday. I remember people saying that no one would go to Australian Airlines because it was crap. Try getting a command up there now! Doesn't look so crap when the music stops does it? What happens when the music stops in Mainline. S/O's and F/O's (as well as Capt's) have the opportunity to take a command on an A320 subject to meeting the requirements of Jetstar. Better than sitting in the back. Ask any ex Ansett S/O or F/O what their co-pilot time was worth on the world market. It is command time that counts and an opportunity to gain that is worth its weight in gold.

The first opportunities don't arise for transfer for about 2-3- years and in that time if the conditions are as bad as you say they are then there will have been 1-2 EBA's that may have addressed some of your concerns. Think to the future, don't focus on the now.

Voting YES does not say that AIPA members are happy with the deal. AIPA knows that there was more money available and the guys sold themselves a bit cheap, but if you were placed in the position of having a gun to your head and asked to sign or you lose your job, what would you do tough guy?

Ask for assistance?

From whom?

The AFAP? They assisted in the firing of the gun for the race to the bottom by agreeing to the VB contract. Yet their members from Kendells etc are now out of a job. Go figure? Who has the AFAP really assisted in years? GA? Qantaslink? Virgin?

AIPA? Not after their previous President GD told them they would all be better off as S/O's. Not quite what you want to hear when looking for assistance.

So with all your bravado what would you do tough guy? My guess is sign. I also suspect you have never been put in that position so look deep inside.

This is about uniting pilots and offering opportunities. It is not tacit approval of the wages and conditions of the Jetstar pilots. It is about doing all that AIPA members (the highest paid Airline Pilots in the country) can to improve the lot of others and in doing so help keep what you currently enjoy.

Read the following Raising the Bar (http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewAnnDocument.aspx?DocumentID=3315)
and think about how that could be you. In fact it is. Me, I think like the author because I can see the race to the bottom if we don't pull our collective heads out of our asses and look after the little guy. The next thing that happens is that you are the little guy and who's going to help you out?

Think about the future, unite the pilots and keep a great job great. United we bargain, divided we beg.

I think it is your logic that is flawed. F*** THEM does not a deal make. Nor does insulting fellow professionals.

VOTE YES!!!!!!

[pollution]

Well mulder you have exposed yourself as a first rate idiot and demeaned your argument (which many agree with in principle BTW) by using foul language and carrying on like a pork chop.

I have read the Qroom thread and it seems to be quite moderate in its arguments.

If you are such an expert on who and who isnt an idiot why don't you post on Qroom under your own name referencing this thread.............mmmmmmmmmmmm....... I guess not - what a hero you are.

Your mates in the jetstar pilots council have continously recieved advice from Ian Oldmeadow (architect of '89) on how to undermine AIPA and the QF pilot body (including regionals) by doing a direct deal with QF over the A320.

Even as I write, Oldmeadow is urging Jetstar pilots not to vote 'yes 'to the MOU and to stay away from AIPA so that 'special' deals may be done over the A380 and perhaps the A340 in the near future.

Before you go flaming your colleagues maybe you should look at who the real enemy here is.

It is not junior crewmembers trying to make head or tail of a diabolically bad situation.

[aresti]

Agent Scully wrote
if the conditions are as bad as you say they are then there will have been 1-2 EBA's that may have addressed some of your concerns.

AIPA knows that there was more money available and the guys sold themselves a bit cheap...


So......you were tripping over yourselves to say 'yes' to flying the 320 for the same money, but we are to believe you will now get the balls to negotiate the EBA of the century.

Having said that, there are two separate issues here. A 'NO' vote for the ****house deal, doesn't mean that AIPA can't get coverage of the leopards.

[Agent Mulder]

Pollution,

If some hard words make you change your opinion, you'd better not stand for anything. The attitude being conveyed by schweinhund was one of F you Jack. (Oops, I did it again). I guess the pork chop is aimed at schwein? What am I saying that is not true?

How do you know what Oldmeadow is up to? Anecdotes do not make truth. The Jetstar pilots did not receive advice from Oldmeadow. What makes you make such an outrageous statement?

Special deals on A380 and A340!!! Mate, the reds are under your bed!!! Dream on. Who's the pork chop now?

Keep livin in the twilight zone old chap. Conspiracy theories belong on TV. Deal with the facts and plan for the future, don't waste time on furphies.

VOTE YES!!!!! Don't Beg.

Aresti,

What does voting no achieve? You feel good about yourself?

How does voting no improve the deal? It doesnt but again you feel good about yourself!

If there are redundancies in Mainline you don't want protections for a job in Jetstar?

If I was a Jetstar pilot and Mainline voted down this deal I would think that Mainline didnt want me to have progression in to that area of the company. Why would I then go and join their union? So I could get screwed over again?

Not one person has put a valid argument forward other than "I dont like it ", and "You blokes shat on us! ".

Big deal. Move forward with direction and purpose or cling to the past and get right royally shafted. Wake up, work together and you might be amazed at what you can achieve.

VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pollution]

Mulder.

The infor on oldmeadow comes from a very well placed source in AIPA.

AIPA has been aware of his role in the Jetstar pilot wage 'negotiations' from the beginning. If you dont believe me - fine.

Ask someone you trust on the COM (if you have any mates that is)

As for 'reds under the bed', mate you are the one which claimed that "10,000 other pilots would take our jobs given half the chance"

you can't have it both ways me old chum.

A few of us who frequent this forum are presently collaborating so as to determine your real identity - shouldn't be too hard given the stupidity of your arguments.

Hopefully we can all catch up down the track for a 'full and frank' exchange of views.

[Agent Mulder]

Pollution,

Well if the few of youse who frequent this forum are all of your intellect you shouldn't have any problem discovering my identity.

Your Oldmeadow story is rubbish and your mate on COM is full of it if that is what he/she has told you.

The claim of others taking your job. Why don't you be Mr. Tough Guy, pick a fight, resign and find out. Been done before, Old Chum.

I doubt we would ever catch up "down the track" as I doubt we would have much in common, other than an employer.

Wake up to yourself. Search for the truth. It's out there!

VOTE YES!!!!!!!!

[LightItUp]

Oldmeadow giving the Jet* pilots info on how to screw AIPA.

Don't think so.

But if that is what you need to believe to justify your attitude so be it...

[GT-R]

http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/5/call_someone.jpg



The result is no Agent Mulder.

[schweinhund]

You sound to me like a very frightened and misguided little boy, mulder. Truth is, the vote ain't up to me. Its up to all from both groups. I dont know of anyone except you who thinks this is a good idea. And you are whimpering like a little puppy about it all.

Sad really.:( :{ :(

[SOPS]

Finally.after many years Mulder gives me closure. The reason for this is, I was always worried about the QF selection procedure, but now I know I dont have to worry. And before Mulder starts, I manages to find a VERY large internatiomal airline that wanted to employ me, and I am still happy 14 years later.

My question is to whoever (and I hope I make sense) be it QF QF Link J STAR or what ever is thought up next, surley you all are professinal (spelling?) pilots, that whish to offer the same product at the end of the day...that is a aircraft at the gate with a lot of happy pax, so what is the problem?

And before anyone statrs about international flying, I do it everyday, and its no harder, or even less hard than Australian Domestic. Which I have done.

So join together, build a force, for divided, you ALL WILL fall

[longjohn]

I too will be voting YES!

Not because I like the conditions,
Not because I like the contract,

But because it is a foot in the door.

AIPA's involvement should enable the jetstar contract to be brought up to at least parity with DJ.

Voting YES does not make it mandatory to apply for Jetstar.


Voting no is exactly what QF and Jetstar management want.

It keeps QF pilots completely seperate from Jetstar. Some may think they are taking a 'moral' stand' by voting no. Consider this, Jetstar may be owned by Qantas, but is a different brand. JEtconnect is the same brand, SAME AIRCRAFT and considerably LOWER conditions, so what has been done about this?

A: Nothing, a rubbery agreement limiting aircraft numbers which has already been broken.

Finally, whilst I think Mulder is doing no favours to himself or his argument, I find it utterly repugnant that there are those who seek here to threaten him by exposing his identity and thereby shutdown his argument. Mulder may be posting incognito for this exact reason.

I would love to 'discuss' the merits of this approach up the track too.

[spinout]

Not being a Jetstar or Qantas mainline pilot I am not privileged to see the letter of agreement but have see and heard enough to wonder why anyone would vote for it… I think that the first thing to happen is AIPA representation for the pilots at Jetstar and then negotiate a better deal.:rolleyes:

[schweinhund]

longjohn. I agree with your sentiments to a certain extent. This is a situation where we are damned if we do, and damned if we dont.

Problem for us is that if we say yes, then yes we are united, but only to a degree, and if we say no then we remain divided.

But in addition to this, if we say yes, then we are endorsing the crap pay and conditions that they get. If we say no, then we don't give them our endorsement.

Which is the lesser evil?

IMO, AIPA are fully responsible for this woeful situation, and they have played directly into the hands of management. They should have sought Jetstar (and others including regionals) coverage without stating clearly to GD that we are lapdogs who will roll over and accept the bullsh1t that Jetstar face.

Shame on you AIPA. Listen to your membership. You are on a tangent which leads us all down the path of destruction.

[amos2]

Well, from someone who's "been there done that"...

an oldie, but a goodie!...

'united you stand, divided you fall'

and if you divide, you will surely fall!

But, Hey!...if you want to stuff up the future for all of you, then go for it!!

[amos2]

So, come on guy's...

why let it drop?

[smokestak]

The only certainty to this whole issue is that pilots will vote for whatever personally suits them best.
The notion that any solidarity exists amongst proffessional pilot ranks is mere folly.
Just cast an eye back over our illustrious industrial past.:ok:

[Agent Mulder]

Time for a career change??

[schweinhund]

Maybe for all of us, mulder. And maybe sooner than you think, unless you enjoy earning the same as a cleaner.