COME ON DARLING...YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT!

[mayday]

This really only concerns UK Instructors, sorry Johnny Foreigner,

Since October 1998 EVERYBODY who works in the UK, in addition to minimum wage, who has been CONTINUOUSLY EMPLOYED FOR THIRTEEN WEEKS OR MORE is ENTITLED by LAW to THREE WEEKS PAID HOLIDAY. Sorry I'll stop shouting now.

What I want to know is, is anyone getting any?, I'm not referring of course to Career Instructors with the big schools but ordinary run of the mill, here today gone tommorrow (hopefully) AFIs/FIRs.

Legally (and I've taken advice on this) no employer can opt out of this responsibility and it applies equally to full time and part time workers. The only reason I raise this is that I pointed this out to my employer recently to be confronted with a "mee noo understandee" type response and I'm awaiting next months pay cheque to see if they are intending to comply with the law, or will I be forced to make a scene about it. Lets face it, to refuse to cough up is like refusing to pay your NI contributions.

I certainly intend to persue this and I would like to take this opportunity to whip up some hysteria within the industry for people like myself to do likewise rather than cow tow to the employers in this sector just because they know all we really want is the hours to get the hell out of here. Why not make our stay a bit more pleasant?


WHADDAYATHINK?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You are absolutely correct. Having worked in the field of employment law recently the European Working Time Directive entitles us to 3 weeks holiday as you outlined. It'll be interesting to see how small school owners react to this one - I can imagine the repsonse of my Boss!!!! Would be just enough time for me to knock of the IR, hmm, now there's a thought... WWW

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Agreed that the way many flying instructors are treated and remunerated is wrong, all over the world.

You say:
"all we really want is the hours to get the hell out of here."

I hope this is a wind up!



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[Meeb]

Sadly CFI I fear it is not a wind up! Some people see instructing as a means to an end and do not give anywhere near 100%. However, I do believe most 'hour building' instructors do give their best. Lets face it, this industry is small, free loaders watch out!!

[mayday]

Come on chaps it was tongue in cheek! I admit however that I'd like a "paying" job sooner rather than later but that is not to say that instructors such as myself are simply poncing hours at the expense of students, I for one take instructing very seriously indeed and find it as an occupation very satisfying and constantly strive to be better at it.

Any students reading this please dont get the wrong idea, its simply that low pay and long hours tend to make you want to move on. And this is the real point of the thread, namely if employment conditions were better then many such as myself might be tempted to stay on as a career ultimately to the benefit of students.

[mayday]

I take it all back!!! Just got paid INCLUDING HOLIDAY PAY, God bless you Tony Blair.

Could this be the beginning of the end of the instructor being the poor cousin of the aviation family, lets hope so.

[Snigs]

God bless Tony Blair.....!!!!! You must be joking.

The more that flying schools have to pay the instructors, especially the short term ones who will take 16 weeks pay for 13 weeks work, means that the cost to the student goes up, which means less people able to afford it, which means less jobs for instructors and the death of the General Aviation industry.


I say http://www.platl.com/mps/med69.gif to Mr Blair and his nanny state.

[StudentInDebt]

Don't forget that Tony approved the decision to abolish NVQ VTR how much would that cost you if you were training from scratch?


Its is also his ministers who are allowing UK airlines to give jobs away because they won't make provisions to train UK/EU pilots. So when you've taken your holiday and left instructing who is to say that your job isn't being done by a crew from Nigeria?

[This message has been edited by StudentInDebt (edited 24 June 1999).]

[capt beeky]

Sadly the abuse of instructors appears to be continuing. Hours worked are going up, safety is pushed to the back. EVEN The new boss at Big UK School was heard to say that his instructors "didn't wan't to fly and were afraid of the weather" He claimed that he taught 550 hrs a year at weekends as a hobby and why couldn't his guys excede that full time. His way of getting new blood seems to be reducing the hours requirements for "509" instructors to 200 hrs (Flight this week).

Does he only do trial lessons? maybe the boss at W*****l should give him lessons, his guys fly in all weather, into the local granite, etc. He fired one guy for refusing to do 4(1) in cloud.

Sadly it doesn't look good for the future.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

All very valid points.
One of the big problems is the instructors who go and offer to work for nothing. The less scrupulous bosses will jump at the chance. Those people have made things difficult for the career instructors all along and always will. So it's up to all of us, from AFIs to CFIs to ensure that those who have some kind of "private income" who want to undermine our livlihoods, don't get a look in.


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[Snigs]

Having returned to this topic and re-read my (rather blunt) contribution, I feel that I must clarify my feelings.

I must say that I feel that career FI's deserve better pay and conditions, including paid holidays and FTL's, BUT I whole-heartedly disagree that part-time players and hour builders should have this so-called right to holidays without putting the work in to earn them. Too many people expect something for nothing nowadays, a sentiment perpetuated by our smug grinning PM and his party.

I think that the price of Avgas should come down and the excess revenue to the club used to pay more to the instructors and reduce the hourly price of a/c hire. I think that is why I can hire a Cardinal in Sweden for £38/hr wet but a decrepit Robin DR400 in the UK for over £95/hr wet (and of course we all know the situation in the US!!!).

Well, my soap box has just broken, so I'm off in search of another one.

Cheers.

[hugh flung_dung]

CFI, I hope this isn't a dig at the many part-time instructors who have professional non-flying jobs and instruct at weekends.
Are there really people out there instructing for free?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BTW Capt Beeky the instructors at W*******l no longer fly in all weathers e.g. this morning when we recalled ourselves due to the generally lowering cloudbase. However, the pressure remains its just that nobody yields (long live the instructor shortage).

hugh flung-dung - I instructed for several years as a volunteer at weekends with the Air Cadet movement and there are hundreds of us (you there Vigilant Driver?).

Returning to the topic - there is absolutely no reason why FI's should not get paid holiday and sick leave just like anybody else in employment. If its your legal right then its yours to take. I'm going to ask for it. WWW

[Snigs]

WWW,

there is absolutely no reason why FI's should not get paid holiday and sick leave just like anybody else in employment. If its your legal right then its yours to take.

I couldn't agree more, but I think we may disagree as to how long you should have to work with your employer, in order to gain the legal right to hols and sick pay, and that's purely subjective anyway. ;)

Keep safe.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think 13 weeks is enough time for the employment relationship to settle down and for the two parties to decide that theycan live with one another in the longer term. After that is established the standard employment framework should be brought into place. I presume you think something like 6 months would be more appropriate? WWW

[Snigs]

I have to say yes, I think six months is a better overall balance for the emloyer (and, in turn, the client).

Currently I earn the right to 2 days holiday for every month I work (25 days per year + stats) and if I terminate my contract having taken more than my earned hols, I have to pay the money back. I emphasise I'm not a professional pilot, yet, and I'm prepared to accept that my opinion might change were I to be in such a situation.

[Vigilant Driver]

Mr. Dung et al,

I INSTRUCT FOR FREE!!! and have been for the last 10 years with the Air Cadets.

I would also instruct at a civi club for free as long as the club was NOT run for profit.

Why do I do it? Well, I love flying and I love teaching. With no profit/loss pressures on me I freely make my own go/no go decisions (within school/club rules!!) and everyone is happy. None of this grumpy boss business thankyou! (Even with a grumpy boss I would still tell him no!!)

Safe flying girls and boys!!

Vigi

[hugh flung_dung]

WWW & Driver, no probs at all with supporting Air Cadets, Scouts, etc for free (I do it myself) but CFI seemed to imply that there were folks instructing at commercial schools for free.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I believe a Flying Instructor is a professional, highly qualified person who should be paid accordingly for time they spend instructing. Full time, part time, casual, whatever.

For as long as people instruct or offer to instruct for free, the wages of the career instructors, who are trying to keep food on the table, will remain low; in some cases, well below the poverty line.

It wouldn't be tolerated in any other industry, and it shouldn't be tolerated in this one.

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[This message has been edited by Charlie Foxtrot India (edited 03 July 1999).]

[throber69]

C.F.I.

well said, too many instructors are taken for granted, at one school i wored at it was not unusual to have your proffesional judgement ouestioned infront of the customer. The boss was not subtle, nor was he an instructor or a proffesional pilot for that matter. To make matters worse instructor's no matter what there experiance or qulaifacation's were idiot's, i on one occasion spent a day t-cutting sheep dung from the under side of a c152 for just my £20 daily retainer.

so roll on the day when instructor's are paid the salary they deserve, after all not every pilot is the graduate of a 509 school where the pay and equipment is good.

so flying school owners and bosses PAY UP OR LOSE OUT !!!!!!!!!!!

[capt beeky]

WWW and Snigs
Its quite simple, if youve been there a month your entitled to a twelwth of your paid hols... pro rata etc... .