Freedom of speach

[JJflyer]

Dear CFI...
I was not slagging flight instructors in my post.I merely Expressed my opinnion about the subject.
Regarding me being illinformed etc ... well I really don't think so. I did work for a US flight school around 6 months.

If you see it fit to censor post's or close thread's based on the fact that your personal view is different than the one in the post or thread, please continue doing so.
You are the moderator and I am not.
There are situation where , beacuse of legal or moral reasons, censorship is required.
But when talking about experiences and opinnions regarding life as a flight instructor. I do not see any reason for the action taken.
Now I have question : as there has been a lot of controversy about The quality of US trained pilots... and the conversation has been heated. Why have those post's not been censored??????
Yet again I apologise for any mistakes in my english.

JJ


Oh, and you will find the post's in question in the Flight instruction as a career forum ( a thread closed )



[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 25 October 1999).]

[Terrain Terrain]

Bravo sir. A good point. Censor for racism, bigotry, slander and defamation of character but of opinions that are fair (yet unfavourable)? No sir!

I will argue till I am blue in the face about the benefits of an instructing background. Infact, I look forward to it. Anyone one that can field a lucid argument (for or against) gets the time of day from me.

So...this little puppy says:

MODERATORS: Please think CAREFULLY about what
you censor.

Cheers

[JJflyer]

Terrain Terrain ...

Instruction gives you better knowledge about many of those things that line pilots have long forgotten ( use it or you lose it ).

" You need to teach it to know it ".

Anyways I have never been a career flight instructor but I find myself teaching new F/O's almost every day while they are doing their IOE's ( Initial Operational Experience)
same thing with new Captains.

Well my only point was ,(and it was not supposed to be derogatory or anyways degrade the value of a good instructor) but to merely point out the advantages of other aviation careers.
I answered the original question to best of my knowledge.

I am pleased, that you, Sir Terrain, even though you disagree with my opinnion, still value my right to express it.
Thank you for that and the points you brought up.

JJ

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

If you went onto say the ATC, flight attendants, helicopters forum or whatever and came on with sweeping generalisations about them being failures, and wishing they could have real jobs then I think you would expect them to want you to get off their forum as well.

It's a sensitive subject. Career instructors are often asked "don't you want to go commercial ?" as if they are just filling in time or not good enough. We instructors are often looked down on by many in the aviation fraternity, and if you read the intro to this forum you will understand why the instructor bashers aren't welcome here. Say what you like on the other forums, but it's not appropriate here.

I hardly think that stopping a conversation that is becoming insulting to the majority of the readers of the forum "censorship".

------------------

[DesiPilot]

Oh boy, and here I am thinking of Flight Instruction as a career. I am seriously thinking of taking over the school I work at, as the owners want to retire. After reading the old thread and this thread, I still want to go for it. Wish me luck everyone, trust me I need it :)

------------------
"The fuel light's on! We're all going to die! ...We're all going to die!... wait, wait .....oh, my mistake-that's the intercom light."

[JJflyer]

Oh boy is CFI upset... and fails to see my point.
Well then...I stand behind my words even more strongly.

Anyways it is not about how I wrote my original post .
It is the fact that you disagree whith me and as a moderator You are using your power to restrict me from expressing my view based on your personal feelings .
Really professional !!!!!!

I will not repeat my views as these can be read on the previous postings... That is unless these have been deleted or this thread has been closed.

If this trend continues a PPruner will not be able bring up anything but " approved "
views. Whatever they may be.

JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 27 October 1999).]

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

This was what got a lot of peoples goats...

You wrote:
"I do agree that ,Flight Instructing is just a stepping stone up to" real" job.
There are fellows out there , who for some reason or other have failed to move up."

Not everyone sees instructing as the "bottom of the heap" when it comes to jobs, and I think you can see why so many people found this post insulting. Those of us who do it for a career take our work very seriously just as any other good teacher does. Not all driving instructors want to drive racing cars, not all physics teachers want to go to the moon...see what I mean? We are TEACHERS as well as pilots, two jobs in one. That doesn't make us "failures"

I don't pretend to know everything about the psyche of an airline pilot, so please don't pretend to know everything about how instructors think. Six months experience isn't a huge amount to go on. Try ten years, then make a judgement.

TTFN!



------------------

[Meeb]

I agree with CFI 100% on this. JJ, your comments were not very clever to post on a forum which is a focal point for instructors. Also, you are very naive if you think instructing is not a 'real' job, I would argue it is the most important part of our industry. Believe me, 6 months in a USA flight school is nothing to go on!

[Stan Evil]

Having been instructing for the last 10 years and been doing non-instructional flying for the 10 years before that I hope I have a balanced view of things! While JJ's choice of words was 'unfortunate' there do seem to be some very sensitive people out here. Instructing is a noble profession and all that. However, the career instructor who has gone from self-improver to instructor and never done any other flying has missed out on valuable experience that would make him a better instructor in the long run. The laws of learning talk about information sticking if it is associated with interesting experiences. The instructor who has a store of 'war stories' to illustrate his teaching is more likely to get the message across. I would recommend any young career instructor who's been in the business for a few years to go and get a non-instructional job - air taxi, air line, whatever. He/she can return to his/her first love a few years down the line with more to offer the students.


[This message has been edited by Stan Evil (edited 27 October 1999).]

[JJflyer]

Dear PPruners
One final time I repeat . " IT IS NOT WHAT OR HOW I WROTE MY ORIGINAL POST, BUT THE FACT THAT THE THREAD WAS CLOSED BEACUSE MODERATOR DISAGREED WITH MY OPINNION ".

Whether it was the thruth or smart to write that way about the subjest in this forum is not the issue I am trying to bring up.

Unfortunately it seems that my idea of freedom of speech dissappears in the reactions generated by the content of my original post.

I rest my case...

JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 28 October 1999).]

[Capt Homesick]

JJ, if you're resting your case there, you weren't paying attention. You were suggesting instructing was only a way to build time before an airline job- Stan was saying you only bother with an airline job to make you a better instructor!
I don't think we're going to convince you- but you may have missed the real reason for padlocking a post. The originator may feel that you are too far off topic, and not want to receive any more emails telling him there are more posts- I made the mistake of enabling that option the first time I started a topic, and eventually got totally sick of it!

[Brit Abroad]

CFI

So what you are saying is that we can use this forum on condition that we all agree with your point of view. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

That is censorship and an abuse of your "power" as moderator. Yes, JJs comments were insulting to quite a few people, and I don't agree with everything he said, but I will certainly fight for his right to free speech.

The point of *this* post is not to open up the same discussion (although that is what is happening) but to question the decision to close the post on the grounds that you didn't agree with it.

All the best, and safe flying.

Brit

[Meeb]

You are wrong Brit Abroad, when someone makes insulting comments, and very ignorant comments to boot, they should get the elbow, simple as that. I think you and others supporting JJFlyer did not read what he said, those were outrageous comments, and there is no place on a public forum for that kind of silly nonsense. To say an instructor who remains as an instructor because he cannot 'move up' is stupid. Who does he think does all the Pilot testing? I think he is very junior aircrew, if indeed he does fly, I think perhaps not otherwise he would have a rough idea of the value and admiration instructors should have.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

JJ mate, I'm sorry to tell you that you are not the reason I closed the thread.
Rmember this one? What you wrote was very mild compared to this.

"Anyone that would seriously consider instructing as a career, rather than want to move on to 737's et al, must have rocks in his head. The problem with being a long term instructor is that inevitably you get jaded, irritable and pedantic. You forget that the poor student is paying your salary. He becomes just another tiresome idiot that cannot understand what you are trying to teach him.
Would you want to be a driving instructor from the time you are 19 to age 60 or more? Of course not. Flying instruction (once you get over the novelty of it, which is about one year) is not much different.
If you like to fly aeroplanes but for some reason you do not have the money, ability, natural drive or you are saddled with wife and kids and a mortgage, at too early in your age,then instructing as a career will give you hours in the log book - but not much money. There is a limit to how much you can honestly enjoy the RH seat of a Cessna 150 for the rest of your life.
There are many fine instructors around, some very young, some oldish. Very very few would not give their eye teeth to see a beautiful sunset from the left or right seat of a big jet.. But instructing as a chosen career? No way, unless you have no other options."

This is not an "opinion" or "point of view" but a load of cobblers written purely to offend the readers of this forum. Remember the big red letters on the bottom of the page.....and note that the one who wrote it is not complaining about "freedom of speach(sic)"

Re the padlocks, they arrive when the topic becomes irrelevant or offensive. It's only happened once before on this forum, not a bad record compared to some of the others.

Have a nice day.


------------------

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

PS think how an impressionable wannabe would feel about his or her flying instructor after reading the above quote. They'd never trust us again.



------------------

[Brit Abroad]

Meeb

First of all, I would ask you to re-read the following:

1)The title of this thread.
2)JJ's posts in *this* thread.
3)My previous post.

We are talking about *FREEDOM OF SPEECH* - We are no longer talking about the merits of being a flying instructor - apparently we are not allowed.

For the record, I have a great deal of respect of career instructors and I *DO NOT* agree with the opinions put forward by JJflyer et al.

So why am I wrong ? Without freedom of speech, PPRUNE is meaningless. If everyone has to agree with the moderator, then surely the 'discussion' would soon get a bit thin on the ground...

And what would happen if someone wrote: "Career instructors are the best in the world - Much better than those who are just there to build their hours....."

Going by your policy of: "when someone makes insulting comments, and very ignorant comments to boot, they should get the elbow, simple as that.", CFI would be happy, but WWW would have the right to close the thread.

Sounds like a no-win situation, and there's certainly going to be a lot of closed threads about.


CFI

Being moderator is not an easy task and I think you're doing a good job of it, however, on this occasion, I feel you let emotion influence your decision to close the thread.


JJflyer et al

IMHO, you have the right to an opinion, however there are ways of phrasing them. You should perhaps try to be a bit more diplomatic in your writing style. I am defending your right to express yourself, not your comments.

Perhaps this would be a good opportunity to re-phrase your opinions ?

Safe flying to all.

Brit

[JJflyer]

I apologise for offending some readers of this forum. especially as I didn't try to offend anyone on purpose.
If somebody in this forum asks about the pro's and conn's about a profession. As a professional you need to provide all the relevant information regarding that job.
And preferably several different views so that the individual can make a decicion accordingly. I think we are doing that on PPrune...
Remeber that post, in I think it was in the Wannabes section, from Getalife
Look it up and read it had some interesting views about being a professional pilot, As does Corsair's post " Are Pilots Overrated"

Anyways, I think we got a good conversation going on here. Seems that the point that I tried to make about the freedom of expressing ones opinnion did go through.

CFI
Yes I did read that... That was,well, very interesting.
You do realize my point about the Freedom of... and all that ???
Altough respect is earned by actions and proficiency , and should not be affected by comments in a forum.

Meeb
Regarding being "very junior aircrew"... hmmm I do feel youthful every now and then... And that is why I recommend you take a Valium from the stock of your plane...Otherwise You just might have a seizure .

Brit Abroad
You brought out some good new points in your last post.

JJ


[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 31 October 1999).]

[4dogs]

CFI and assorted combatants,

I am and always will be an instructor. It is not all that I do, but it is always part of everything that I do.

I have incredible regard for those of my peers who find their chosen niche in flying instruction.

However, I was surrounded by a significant majority of instructors who were passing through instruction as a means of gaining sufficient experience to go on to easier and better paid things.

I have been insulted many times before and will continue to be so in the future. However, I don't have enough heartbeats left to get to wound up about a point of view that I think may be poorly expressly or unwisely held. But I don't hide from the fact that these things are out there. I prefer to deal with adverse things up front, rather than pretend they don't exist.

Moderators have a very difficult and narrow path to tread, particularly where slander may be involved. However, broadly expressed opinions rarely provoke class actions and so one must be careful not to censor the forum under the guise of "legal consequences". If you continue to permit only the rosy view of us and our profession, you will choke the flow and thus the participation.

I prefer the intellectual challenge of reading, forming a view and then choosing between persuasion based on sound reasoning or ignoring the provocation. Then again, I find "political correctness" a blight on human behaviour and one of life's greatest provocations!!


------------------
Stay Alive,

[email protected]

[guvner]

An open forum such as this is available to all presumably to express one's opinions. Whether I agree or disagree with that opinion is the catalyst for healthy debate. Personally I wouldn't enter a forum I knew little about and start espousing ill-informed rhetoric, however not everyone is as circumspect or restrained. If I do not like what is being said or find it insulting I treat it with the respect it deserves...ignore it, but I would never gag someone's contribution.(profane or invective comments excluded) For what it's worth I love instructing but I too have my moments...exactly as alluded to in previous posts. It isn't everyone's bag, and if someone slags instructors off then they probably were no good at it themselves, or lack the maturity to extract satisfaction from teaching someone else the joy of flight.

[Terrain Terrain]

What an interesting thread. Well...I put my two bob in at the start and I feel there is just a wee bit more to say at the (near) end.

JJFlyer
-------
My opinion has not changed on the censorship issue. However, after reading an abridged version of your original post, you were really playing with fire. (Ya just don't walk into Harlem and yell '******'). Thing is...I, like you, will never become a career instructor. I enjoyed my time as an instructor and was good at it. However, the reason I remained good at it was because I knew it was a step for bigger and better things (for me that is - and note...bigger and better is always subjective). If you can't understand why some people stay in instructing, you mustn't have had a good instructor. While there are some that stay there because they are scared or not good enough to go further, there are many, MANY more that are 'doyens' when it comes to instruction. If you have ever flown with an instructor that lesson after lesson, brief after brief, makes it crystal clear to you, then you will know what I mean. It is a thankless profession (similar to school teachers, mothers and housewives. Underpaid, overworked and responsible for the creation of 'new people' (you are making pilots!)). So at the end of the day, perhaps a few comments laced with 'for me at least' or 'in my case' may make people happier and allow the thread to stay as a 'different point of view'.

CFI
---
I understand your being upset at the aforementioned comments. While I have never flown with you, I know your passion and enthusiasm for aviation. And if that enthusiasm extends to your instructing (as I am sure it does) then you have a right to be hurt by JJ's post. BUT! at the end of the day, this topic has turned into an issue over censorship.

By suggesting that a post that was offensive to the majority of readers of this forum deserves to be removed is 'just not cricket'. In the same way you have the right to go to 'Tech Log' and say "Hey, airline guys, I reckon your jobs bite the big one. Instruction is the way to go because......" then others should have the right to do the same. As long as a lucid argument is presented (ie that it is not some slanderous attack) then it should be given time on this forum.

So...moral of the story? Firstly, thank for doing a thankless job (forum mediator thingy). It is a job that I wouldn't want and at times can be quite difficult. But please, before killing a thread, please consider its merits (as personally distasteful as they may seem). Thanks.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Danny and I have been watching this thread carefully. We're enjoying the debate, especially now that it has become more thoughtful.

You're still missing the big picture, barely one of you has bothered your backside to consider why we went to the time, effort and expense to create a haven for instructors.

If you want me to elucidate further I will be more than glad too: just as soon as the captains of free speech here put in just a modicum of effort into thinking through not why the thread was stopped at all but the long term strategic reasoning which means some sections of the site are much more rigidly policed than others.

------------------
Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

[HungryPilot]

Flight instruction was the worst ten months of my aviation career. Hated it.

[guvner]

So what career are you in now?

[HungryPilot]

Afternoon instructing for a year in hell-hole Michigan, flew cargo in a C 310 and Aerostar for a while (good fun), now studying in England for the CAA ATPL. Yourself?

[Ace on Base]

Think that I may be a little late in adding my two cents........

People have to realise that "Instructing is the backbone of the industry" - without instructors, JJ, there would not be any pilots.... Or were the pilots of today just "CREATED" on the seventh day????

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion JJ (and anyone else), But, I ask you, Would U go into a Jewish church and offer PORK??....
If not, I would carefully consider what you say and where you post your thread!!!

For the record, I have a grade two instructor rating, and have been instructing for about 3 years, and I prefer instructing over charter anyday!!!

"Keep smiling Sunshiners!!"

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Right well I'm entering the debate like it or not.

Firstly, CFI is the moderator and as such has every right to lock a thread. Don't bicker or argue that's just the wayt it is. Editorial judgement can be argued all day and all night but at the end of the day the editor makes a decision and that's final.

I have little sympathy for the complaint that this site is somehow ominously 'controlled' or 'censored'. Some damn evocative stuff appears here and it will continue to do so.

I admit that on first reading I was annoyed by the JJflyer comment. I was tempted to lock it myself. Then (as usual) I thought it better to leave it to be slapped down by others. Career instructors are gold-dust and I have nothing but respect for them.

I'm an instructor and have been for over 5 years (mostly part time) and I am damned proud of that fact. This forum is invaluable and I hardly think that only 2 lock outs in all its history justifies anybody to have a go at editorial policy.

Safe flying everybody,

WWW