Pay as You Starve!

[TheBeeKeeper]

Anyone had much experience with the new Pay As You Dine system? Would be nice to know others experiences, thoughts etc.

I believe the Navy have a trial unit, and RAF have two up and running?!?

TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)

[Scud-U-Like]

PAYD marks the end of the paternalistic nonsense of charging people for meals they neither want nor eat (which, one day, will surely rank alongside underwear inspections in the "stupid ex-QR" league).

Eat what you want, when you want. What is there not to like about it? (Please spare us the guff about kids pi$$ing their dinner money up the wall. If a few junior service personnel start becoming starving alcoholics, then, like most aspects of personal care, it will soon become pretty obvious to even the daftest line manager).

PAYD Website could do with updating though (http://www.payd.mod.uk/)

[mbga9pgf]

Come off it. Unless MOD is saving money, they would not have changed anything. Can garantee that once this in place, food standards will go down, cost will go up, and we will begin to live in segregated messes where everyone eats take-out and cooks food in their room microwaves. Very social for an officers mess.

Not great. for a hundred quid a month, I get very reasonable food, a full breakfast, good lunch and silver service 3 course meal, followed by cheese and biccys.... how much is that going to cost on the PAYD scheme? I get paid enough not really to care if i miss one or two meals.

[TheBeeKeeper]

Quote

'Can garantee that once this in place, food standards will go up'

I think not, food standards here have gone down considerably. Chefs are being told which suppliers they are to use and to spend less on the cuts of meat etc. As for the ORs, they are getting a rough deal, thier mess has been turned into an all ranks and civil servants facility (so, no where to go of a lunch time and slag off your boss).

And the contractor is still not making money because people are voting with their feet! Contractors solution to this problem? They are wanting to start combined messing at the weekends for starters, with a view to 7 day a week combined messing!

So how long will the Officers Mess and SNCOs Mess last? Who knows!

TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)

[SteveStephens]

The big problem with the current system is that some people eat 21 meals a week and some do not eat in the Mess. However, they both pay the same food charge. If we go to a mess where the take-up is low we get fabulous meals. If we go to somewhere like RAF Saxa Vord, where the take-up is high, the standard is not so good.

The next problem is the lack of investment in the infrastructure of our Junior Ranks Faciliities, they are falling apart. If you look at RAF Leuchars (the STC PAYD Trial Site) there is a complete new facility with Bowl, Bar, Restaurant, Cafe etc. The sort of facilities you would frequent if you went down town. The option on whether personnel eat there is up to them, if the quality is not good enough, or the price is not low enough, there will not be the custom. Early indications are that it is a good thing!

[Scud-U-Like]

mbga9pgf

Of course, people might also question why they're having to subsidise Flying Officer Billy Bunter in the Officers' Mess ;)

TheBeeKeeper

Does having 3 kitchens on one stn, with a handfull of people eating in each mess, really make any sense? By all means, keep individual mess dining rooms and kitchens for the odd formal do, but centralised messing is almost inevitable. If necessary, have segregated areas for different ranks in one dining room.

[mbga9pgf]

Steve, dont you think that they undoubtedly are going to ram loads of funding into the initial PAYD projects, to sway the vote as it were toward PAYD. I highly doubt similar funding would be provided around the Air Force if PAYD came online.

Ultimately, the officers mess is non-public anyway, unlike junior (not sure about sgts??) however, I have no objection to junior or sgts messes going over to PAYD as undoubtedly they will benefit from the sceme; far more of them to contribute. I am slightly concerned however that the move in the long run for the OM will be asignificant worsening of standards, and a massively increased cost for all involved in wishing to have an active Mess social life. The ideal method of course would be current feeding arrangements that allow you to claim a Missed meal allowance for the money you have paid for meals but through no fault of your own have been unable to eat; those with one or two missed meals will hardly bother; those with a significant proportion of their days away in a month can claim back what they are entitled to.

[SteveStephens]

mbga9pgf

You are right, ESS did make RAF Leuchars the Flagship and there were aspects of the development that pushed through irrespective of cost. However, that said, it is a fantastic improvement to the quality of life.

As for life in the Mess, well I think that is dying anyway. The old days of having a dozen formal events a year for 10 shillings is long gone. It is time to try and bring the Service Community back together.

Pay As You Dine may not be the answer, but the question was lost a long time ago.

The Officers' Mess is a mixture of public and non-public money. Yes the Members contribute to the runnig of the Mess (non-public) but the building, staffing and maintenence is picked up by the public purse. The same as the Sgts' Mess. The Junior Ranks Mess is all public.

[mbga9pgf]

Steve, fully agree that life in the mess is changing. and I also fully subscribe to accepting any changes supposedly in the services interest. But I joined for the life, not a job.

Having said that, I also joined understanding that with the armed forces, you either jump on the bus, or get trampled. I dont mean for any of my comments to be winges, just observations from a permanent live-er in at possibly the most lifeless mess in the Air force!

[BATCO]

PAYD at RAF Henlow a bit of a culture shock. I don't know whether the soldiers and Airmen (the only sailors I saw were SNCO/officers) want to eat in a formica filled, down market looking motorway service station -type environment.....but they now have to.

As for the officers' mess, many of the same cheerful staff (for another year or two - until closure?) but food standards definitely down. Fewer choices (often exhausted very quickly further reducing choice) and not of the same quality - subjective I know but you did ask.

Agree that only reason was to save money....if it ain't broke don't fix it = if it was cost neutral where was the demand for change? (expect an avalanche of stats form some counsultant on that one but I still won't believe it).

Bon apetit !:yuk:

[Jacks Down]

From what I have been briefed we can also expect to see bar prices shoot up as all catering on stns will fall under PAYD, not just food (OK, so beer is food). Bars will be run by the PAYD contractor = normal civvy prices. Anyone with direct experience of the pilot stns got any gen on this?

PAYD might be fairer than the current system in principle, ie why should those that choose to miss some meals subsidise the rest, but is the alternative of worse and/or more expensive food any better? I think not, plus add in the likelyhood of combined messing and another chip away at military ethos. Maybe the 'E' in 'RISE' stands for 'Eating together'?!

Good news is that PAYD pilot projects don't appear to be a runaway success with the contractor apparently loosing money, and implementation has slipped at least a year. At least they aren't hostages to fortune by calling it something with a year in the title like CS95 or Pay 2000! (or even Eurofighter 2000!)

[SteveStephens]

Now I might be speaking out of turn, but I suggest the subscribers to this debate are all of officer rank. The huge change to quality of life is that of the junior ranks. I personally do not agree that RAF Henlow is "formica filled, down market looking motorway service station". The Cafe Ritazza sells all the food you would want to buy, ciabatas, capacino (excuse the spellings no great on foreign!).

As for the pricing regimes, they are carefully governed between the Authority (Stn) and the Supplier Partner (Contractor).

I could bore you for hours on the way PAYD is funded, but essentially the Authority contributes considerably to it. In STC the Supplier Partner gets the Core Catering Manpower for nothing. Therefore, costs are kept to a minimum.

As I said before, if the troops do not like it they will not use it!

[mbga9pgf]

Well let the junior ranks have it then. Adoption of PAYD should be brought into the Officers and sgts messes through a vote at the AGM, not forced in by beaurocracy. Everyone in the main then will be happy.
To give you ean example how rediculous things are already, at our mess we can only select certain wines and Champagne if the contractor who supplies them has them on the official list; a local bloke who visited us on a wine tasting night had an almost perfect bottle of champagne, far cheaper than what the top priced one was behind the bar, and surprise surprise, due to contracts we couldnt stock up. Bloody Typical. And whose mess exactly is it?

I agree things must improve for the Junior Ranks, but their messes are wholly funded by public funds. So lets sack some civil servants responsible for high level beaurocracy and cost cutting like PAYD and other silly government schemes and use their salaries to suppliment the Junior Ranks.

Steve, surely if the Junior Ranks dont use it, yet STC are stuck in a contact with some civvie company loosing money as a result, we aren't exactly doing everything to save desperately required funds and PAYD will become another scheme despised by all as a waste of cash!

Save our Messes!

[empty pockets]

mbga9pgf - check your pm's mate!

I can't believe you're whingin' about the quality of yor champers, the last time I saw you it was kebabs morning, noon, and night!

EP

[TheBeeKeeper]

SteveStephens

Have you been to lunch at Crystals - RAF Henlow? Counted the number of people that actually use the facility? It's not good and ESS are certainly not making money!

As for the quality of the food, menu options that would have normally been on offer before PAYD are now offered as A la Carte options costing you twice as much as the core menu!

Don't even get me started on bar prices!!!!! ESS don't make money on the drinks for a start, they buy the stock, provide the staff and sell the drinks on at cost plus whatever GPP has been decided by the committee. We are not allowed to choose who supplies the beer, which tends to suggest that ESS have their own preferred suppliers who, at the end of the year offer a bonus in the way of kick back as a percentage of the amount of beer etc purchased. The knock on effect of this, is that the supplier can (and does) put up the prices regularly and it makes no difference to ESS and actually benefits them. I would get my hand slapped if I even tried to phone the supplier to ask anything about prices.

Typical example recently, sun is shining, Sunday afternoon, jug of Pimms in the garden, you know the drill! ESS are buying Pimms in at £18/litre for the mess...... surely I should not be able to go to a supermarket and buy it for £12/litre! Admittedly, we don't pay a great deal for our drinks, but if we were using different suppliers and introduce a little competition, then at least we could increase our GPP putting more cash into ents funtions throughout the year. This problem is not just confined to the OM, ESS buy for Juniors and SNCOs too!

TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)

[mbga9pgf]

Damn right EP, there is not a kebab in the world like an Abduls kebab from Oxford road! Or, as the case was with me, attempting to live on a fiver a week, a geminis "cat and dog" special, never did see many cats on the curry mile, did you?

[allan907]

What an interesting thread! 15 to 20 years ago there was a great push for PAYD. All the 'livers-in' suggested that this was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Those of us that were trying to 'hold the line' were slammed as being 'old fogies' completely out of touch with what the modern RAF needed.

Funny old thing how things tend to come full circle. You are now at the half way point where you have got (eventually) what was wanted. You will now have a long way to go (if ever) before it gets back to some reasonable service and quality of life. Old Chinese curse - may you get what you want!

In the wider picture - contracting out won't work. What happens when there is an overriding national interest type situation? Will the contractors continue to fulfill their obligations? Trenchard had the right idea with the contraction of the 1920s. Contract (ie, downsize) by all means but retain a nucleus of each branch so that when expansion comes (which it will eventually - Bliar can't last for ever) each branch has the instructors it needs to rapidly expand. Right now the Armed Forces are losing expertise which cannot be replaced and is not being passed on.

I dare say that this is totally wasted on some of the feckwits that are now up at the top (all sqn ldrs when I was in - and some of them I wouldn't give you tuppence for). So, Good Morning CAS, read and inwardly digest. Ignore history at your peril.

[My T Hunter]

As an ex Manchester Uni stude the name Abdul's takes me back a few years!!! Without doubt the finest chicken kebab in the world. Although I always reckoned the Wilmslow Road branch in Fallowfield was the best!
Who'd have thought it would take a kebab shop to make my first post!

[tier2commando]

If you want to get rich quick try to get a mcdonalds up and running in carterton, or if thats a bit difficult try getting shares in franks chinky or alex kebabs outside the osprey. there is no way a unit the size of this one here could run a payd, whom will gamble on providing 800 meals a session if everyone turns up, or cook 800 if no one does. But still looking forward to some nice meals in downtown khartoum with General Gordon, any one know any sudanese kebab shop locations

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Ick:rolleyes:

"What about sauces to compliment ones dining experience. Call me old fashioned but i rather enjoy some horseradish sauce with roast beef. But oh no-- now I can only have a SATCHET of horseradish, individually charged to my account----SATCHETS in an officers' mess!!!!"

"the powers that be have already read my mind and implemented these screw down plastic chairs.All very officer like!!!"

I go down route regular as a regular thing with "royals" who seem to like nothing better that eating cheap in the Arches etc as on the ground "eatings cheating". The fact that they also have absolutey no prob's with plastic and sachets and bearing in mind that even on here it would seem kebab's and other junk food are the "tales of tomorrow" why suddenly on return to the heartland does one feel the need to have ones status massaged with silver service?

I had thought the "upper class pompous twit" thing was on the way out...guess I was wrong:rolleyes: Combined messing.....bring it on and see how the other half live!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Blacksheep]

As a long departed SNCO I'm astonished at what has come to pass. Supplier Partner? Core Catering Manpower? Geeze!

On the subject of combined messing, has anyone asked the erks how they feel about dining with a load of zobbits? There's a good reason for the separation of ranks in the military.

Maybe the right answer is to go back to the origins and have the Officers and SNCOs organize their own messes at their own expense, with public money only paying for the premises and a modest 'ration allowance' per head. As far as I can see there's nothing to prevent the mess members as a group, bidding for their own contract, then appointing their own managers to actually run the place. Any difference between the ration allowance and the actual service provided could be paid for as Mess Bills. The advantage would be that unlike independent outside contractors, the mess would be a non-profit making enterprise.

Just as it was in the first place.

[TheNightOwl]

Too right, Blacksheep, as another long-departed SNCO I heartily agree. Vive la difference!!

The more I read in these forums of life in the Mob nowadays, the happier I am that I left 21 years ago. I really don't think I could stomach the crap which appears to go on now. I would not wish to dine with Officers OR Other Ranks, my Mess was for me and my ilk, long may it remain so. If that appears to some as living in the past and wishing for "the old days", so be it. This erosion of recognition of the differences in rank/status cannot do any good, IMHO.

Ducks back behind parapet to await incoming!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[allan907]

During the dim and distant days of TACEVAL when centralised messing was instigated it was a commonly held view amongst officers and SNCOs that the food was top notch. We didn't mind going to the Airmen's Mess to eat but it did seem to me that the airmen minded.

I well remember one exercise at Wittering. I was sitting at a table on my own when I was approached by one lad with a heaped dinner plate (like, it had beans running off the side it was so heaped). He was all cheerful when he grunted "Anyone 'ere mate?", sat down and proceeded to scoop the contents of his plate into his frame in much the same fashion as a mechanical digger clawing clay from the side of a brick pit. He then seemed to note that I was not a fellow airman (we were all in NBC kit, sans respirators) when he spied my bit of green tape saying "Sqn Ldr xx" hidden in the folds of the NBC jacket.

At that point his head went down closer to the mountain of mash and a protective arm went around the top of the plate as if to guard it from my attentions.

It passed an amusing 5 minutes in what was a fairly turgid exercise.

Vive la difference!

[SteveStephens]

Glad to see some of the comments. Its funny how for the last 30 + years personnel have been asking for Pay As You Dine. Now it is coming in, they are all against it.

STC has always resisted MACs, unlike Porridge Command. However, 3 into 1 (Catering, Retail and Leisure) has been mandated by the DMB. Therefore, in theory, all Stns within the MoD will convert sooner or later to a MAC or PAYD.

PAYD is being trialled and the DMB are not going to make a decision on go ahead until next year. However, if personnel use it ...........................................!

[Black Spot]

Do people realise that if the 3 in to 1 system comes online, that the contractor gets all leisure activities.

So the rugby club bar won't add to the rugby club funds, just line the pockets of the contractor, maximising their profit making position to the detriment of the clubs and activities on a station

At least with NAAFI the ORs got a rebate:yuk:

[SteveStephens]

Black Spot

As I said in my last post, 3into1 is mandated so it is not an option. However, the leisure activities referred to are the ones run by NAAFI at present, or should I say not run by NAAFI!

As for the Rugby Club, in STC each major non-public revenue stream will be examined to see whether it is in or out of the Contract. At RAF Leuchars the Bowl is in, the Rugby Club is out.

Then you get onto the Charities Act, you might be aware that the majority of Clubs do not conform to the Act!

[Uncle Ginsters]

Recent local news article (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2004/07/06/newsstory6092933t0.asp)

As with all contracts, how can you ensure quality when the contractor is effectively written in as the boss.

Civ Company = profit
Profit = money not spent on service
=>decline in quality.

Up here at Leuchars, loyal, long-serving staff have gone unpaid for months, in some instances up to £800 in arrears.
In principle, PAYD is great - you pay for what you eat. However, when it goes as far as paying for individual slices of toast and saches of jam for afternoon tea, it's surely gone too far. Main meal portions have shrunk greatly in size and some staff are now more like salesmen than the usual friendly faces we were used to.

You can only put so much down to 'teething problems'


Oh, and did i say it was sh*te??:O

Uncle G

[Spotting Bad Guys]

A little off topic, but.....

In my last job I was required to spend a lot of time on the road, attending meetings at places such as MOD, HQSTC and visiting most of our bases including specialist or Joint Service units such as Chicksands and Cosford.

This kind of lifestyle rapidly highlighted those areas of success or failure in the area of Messing and accomodation. What was abundantly clear is that those Messes which retain their "Service" status were better by a country mile than the MAC/Civilian run counterparts. (i.e. the Mess Manager is a WO/FS and the Mess is run in the traditional manner).

My experience of the MACs is that they provide a degraded service in almost all areas; getting things fixed i.e. lack of hot water in an entire wing, was almost impossible; there seems to be little accountability for poor service and a predominance of Mess Managers who treat the place like a Trusthouse Forte with little regard for the lifestyle of the 'customers'. After three days of no hot water at Cosford, I threatened to move into a hotel and send the bill to the Mess Manager; miraculously the hot water came on that evening!

There is also a poor attitude prevalent on bases with Messes that are MAC-run in that anything that is not directly stipulated in the contract is too difficult/costly/time-consuming to change; things change over time and we have learnt the hard way that we never foresee every eventuality when writing contracts! For example. the RAF personnel at a Joint Service unit wanted to host a Battle Of Britain function last year; this was prevented because it wasn't part of the agreed 8 'official' functions allowed each year, and the (Civilian) Mess Manager refused to consider adding a ninth!

On the subject of PAYD - great concept but unfortunately I believe that this will be another erosion of our traditions and lifestyle. This is by no means a snobbish attitude; from one who has been both a JR and an officer, in both incarnations I would rather have dined with my peers!

SBG

[polyglory]

The first kiss of death was the Contract Caterers, Compass Caterers comes to mind from the wild Moors of North Yorkshire in the Eighties and again before demobb down South, driven by profit and declining standards.

They could'nt do Silver service in the mess for a dining in Night, so had to do a trial run with the full Menu at their cost and the peas were everywhere, they got it right in the end.

Now look where they are:}

Profits, nothing else.

[Pontius Navigator]

Allan907, Luqa Mess, 1974, PAYD, Nimrod Soup, toast, butter and all priced separately. I think a slice of toast was 2p. But I digress.

StevenStevens is clearly very well connected. I recognise all the facts from the brief at STC last month. It certainly looks good and there is no doubt that there are warts. The contractor wanting to run the clubs too to ensure he gets his 10% profit.

Interestingly Coningsby want to make an in-house bid for PAYD. Having done all the study they then found they had overlooked the sqn faciltiies and southside feeder.

[FJJP]

The other aspect of contract catering not mentioned so far, is the decline in numbers of uniformed staff. If you take chefs, for example - they are often required to deploy on ops or exercises to supplement host base staffing levels. So when the Harrier Force embark onto a carrier, RAF chefs/stewards, etc go with them. With the declining numbers of uniforms, it means that those that are left bear an increased burden of depolyments.

Result? A highly pi**ed off workforce that vote with their feet, knowing that in civi street, military chefs are snapped up with indecent haste. These guys walk into top notch jobs an the hotel & restaurant world [often at much higher salaries].

Incidentally, the same goes for civilian contractorisation across the Forces. How many civilian contractors joined in any of the recent bashes in the Middle East, Balkans, Sierra Leone, etc.

Many of us said civilian contractorisation was a disasterous mistake at the time of concept, and I hate to say it - but I'm going to anyway - WE TOLD YOU SO... [but no-one listened to anyone except the bean counters].

[Impiger]

I remember a PAYD trial at St Mawgan in 1973 (I think it was about then anyway). It made sense and was handled by the Service caterers and standards didn't slip at all. The potential problem with the current PAYD (which isn't really a trial more of a phased introduction) is that it will become contractor dominated rather than customer led (which was the idea).

For example the original plan at Leuchars was rejected by the contractors as being uneconomic for them. Inclusion of the Bowl was I suspect a sweetener to give then an extra profit stream. The prefered solution for the Strike trial was to use Servicemen and MOD civilians with contractor support only for the accounting part of the business but in the end the investment required resulted in a contractor led solution. The contractors hope to recoup their investment through their profits - in effect the Serviceman will be paying for improvements to his clubs and messes through his food bills!

PAYD is a fairer system than the food charge but will ultimately be more expensive for the individual. It will also lead to more contractorisation of the catering trade (already one of the hardest pressed in OOA turn-round times) and in time to the errosion of standards in oficers and sergeants messes (although hopefully improvements for the junior ranks). With care we should be able (have been able) to improve the latter without harming the former - the jury is still out but lessons from the Leuchars trial need to be learned carefully before it is applied as the standard across the rest of Strike. I would still like to see a Service run/led trial at the next MOB to go down this route.

In the meantime investing in a Kebab wagon or mobile Fish & Chips bar to park outside STC MOBs looks like a good investment!:cool:

[TheBeeKeeper]

Quote

'and in time to the errosion of standards in oficers and sergeants messes (although hopefully improvements for the junior ranks)'

In days gone by, not that long ago mind, the best mess I have eaten in was as an airman at Odiham, Surf n' Turf night..... Inch think Fillet, Lobster, Whole tail scampi etc.

Don't think you would be able to get that on the core menu of PAYD!

TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)

[Slotback]

Investing in a Kebab van outside STC MOBs would sound like a good deal, until you realise that the PAYD company at Leuchars banned the long established van from working outside the station. They could only do this because he used a power supply from the base, good for him, good for the people of Leuchars, too much competition for ESS.

ESS nothing more than a money grabbing company with no understanding of military or mess life. Yes they have improved the all-ranks facility, but at the expense of the junior ranks bar, and mess life is at best critical, definetely on life support.

PAYD sounds like a good idea, but once again we a let down by the contract writers (Leuchars is STC PAYD trial but has signed a 10 year contract - extensive trial or clever dealing by ESS?) and people who don't appreciate that military life is different to civilian life.

[teeteringhead]

But (without being political), however good it is, it's also an unwelcome step in the direction of Central Planning, a la failed Warsaw Pact economies and is an enormous reduction in choice for Messes.

When I was last at EGOS, the links with local, exceptionally good wine merchant "Tanners of Shrewsbury" was forcibly removed by MegaContractor Inc, with MoD agreement, that they would supply all alcohol on base (might have only been Glider Command).

Staish at the time tried all he could to reverse the decision (allegedly), but the argument went thus:

MoD: Messes can only source other than from contractor, when contractor cannot supply.

Staish: Contractor cannot supply "Tanner's Claret" or "Tanner's Champagne", without which no D-I-N/Ball at Shawbs has been complete for 60 years.

MoD: That doesn't count - claret is claret and fizz is fizz. Back in yer box Staish, and don't bother us again.


And we used to get free wine tastings, which were educational (and fun) from Tanner's too. Ah well.... :( :(

[Impiger]

Slotback,

Didn't know the Kebab van at Leuchars drew power from the public supply I always thought he was completely self contained. Has he really gone? Well at least that will reduce the SMO's sick parades!!

But where will 'arry the Staish get a quick soaker upper on his way home from Happy Hour?

As for the 10 year contract it may be called a trial but believe me this a phased introduction across all 3 Services. There's no turning back unless we can afford to pay the contractor for the improvements to the JRs' Mess.

[SteveStephens]

Glad to see all the different opinions, however most of them are incorrect! I am not a defender of PAYD, I only know a reasonable amount about the subject.

Uncle Ginsters

The MoD Civilians that transferred to ESS transferred with the same pay, bonuses and Pay Deal that they were getting. Yes there were problems that were soon sorted when it came to the attention of the "Grown Ups".

Pontius Navigator

Coningsby are trying to do PAYD on their own, the head chef was at RAF Leuchars until recently! We all agree that the RAF Chefs are the finest in the MoD, however they are not business men. If they ran PAYD, who would pay for the investment? Who would pay for the meals that were not consumed?

FJJP

Totally agree, if we do not look after our personnel, we wont be able to keep the 20,000 that we are reducing to!

Slotback

The demise of the Kebab Wagon was nothing to do with ESS. Must admit I have has a few of his finest over the years. Yes you are right Contractors do need to make profit. Were you aware that profit is filtered back to the Stn through Gainshare?




OK I have lit the touch paper ......................will retire to a safe distance.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Steve,
As informed as you may be, you can rest assured that the pay issues at Leuchars are not even close to being fully resolved. In the OM alone, there are more than a handful of staff well into 3-figures out of pocket, in some instances approaching 4.

You are right about the 'grown ups' knowing - allegedly, one of the Staish's (ESS run?!?) staff had to be taken into town by Mrs Staish to arrange their first bank loan because of it.

If the involved/responsible 'grown ups' are indeed aware of this, surely that simply makes the problem more grave.

Touch-paper ignites & burns, retreat, :D

Uncle G

[exrotarybooty]

In the meantime investing in a Kebab wagon or mobile Fish & Chips bar to park outside STC MOBs looks like a good investment!
There is a campaign running at the Commando Training Centre Royal Marines near Exeter to save the 'Out of Hours' Burger bar provided by a former Royal Marine SNCO, Dutchy Holland, since 1966. He, and now his son, operate this very popular facility on camp, and many a commando recruit, and members of the training staff, have found him still open when they return from a night exercise, soaking wet and cold at 0300hrs! This is an 'all ranks' eatery, and many a senior RM Officer has taken advantage of the delicious menu items on offer.

I don't think many PAYD contractors will be providing this sort of service, but the powers that be are serving notice on Dutchy to move on.

Dutchy's web site can be found at: www.savedutchy.co.uk

[Green Meat]

Head above parapet time...

From a purely eating POV, as someone who visits many establishments and a veggie to boot (I know, I can feel the incoming already) PAYD is a good idea as it allows me to walk out when I see deep fried frozen veg again at the counter. From the contractors' POV this is wasteful and eats into their profits. The obvious response to the contractors is improve the service. On one famous occasion I found it better to eat at the spotters' repository co-located with the latest Purple College on the grounds that as I was paying for it anyway I might as well eat something I could stomach. For all you secret veggies out there the place near the golf course has the best to date, although on reading SteveStephens reply to Pontius, I may have to visit Coningsby more...

Impiger, the St Mawgan trial sounds too sensible to be a winner for the MoD! I did some work with British Aerospace (back in the pre-flashy name days of course) and their subsidised canteen system was fantastic and very heavily used by all thanks to the quality.

[SteveStephens]

Green Meat

Well done, that makes two of us! That and all the people who do not eat in Messes but pay the food charge.

[BEagle]

I refer to the astonishing news about the privately owned and operated Burger Bar at Lympstone.

How on Earth can any faceless f*ckwit try to wipe out nearly 40 years of history on the grounds of some new Ministry of We-can't-afford-it 'Initiative'? From what I read, 'Dutchy's' has provided not only the sort of grub actually wanted by his customers at all hours of day and night, but it has also managed to cope with all the stupidity of the huggy-fluffy Food Nazis, Health and Safety and other Eurocratic bullsh*t. More than that, however, its unique contribution to the morale of a close-knit corps must also be acknowledged.

Far from facing closure by mindless bureaucrats who would appear to wish to achieve a monopoly for their pet project, Dutchy's should be considered for whatever national award is available. I am totally appalled that the MoD should attempt an unreasonable restraint of trade in order to secure a monopoly for their own contractor. Those supporting 'Dutchy' should write to their MP (as is their right), demanding that this decision is reviewed. Moreover, in an election year when all the wretched government can do is to place increasing demands on the morale of all Service personnel, the value of people such as Dutchy who are prepared to contribute actively to the welfare of our Service personnel cannot be overestimated.

I hope that the Royals fight this daft decision with all the tenacity and fighting spirit for which they are justly renowned.


Later edited to add: The constituency MP for Lympstone (East Devon) is Mr Hugo Swire MP (Conservative). His website is http://www.hugoswire.org.uk/ ; this also includes contact details.

[bigflyingrob]

I was on the end of a contracted out food system at RAF Swinderby back in the 70s and it was awful. Lunch to be fair was OK but the evening meal was not worth the walk I survived by eating in the pub at the end of the road.
We had a contracted out system of similar standard at the BBC as well. We ended up with Pizza delivery people wandering round Television Centre trying to find the right people! Management tried to put a stop to it so we ended up meeting them at the gate!
I wonder what would happen if 50 pizza bikes ended up at the guardhouse at the same time.

[Big Cat Handler]

I've heard plenty of comments about food quality since joining up. The bases where the most people have wanted full PAYD because of the poor food have all been run by contractors - those with military chefs and stewards have been excellent. So, surely, contractors running PAYD is a guaranteed way of stopping anyone eating in the messes, and those same contractors aren't going to make any money! If we're going to do it, then let's have military catering staff with, if necessary, ONE contractor per mess to stop the Chef doing anything silly with the budget.

BCH

[Spotting Bad Guys]

If I recall correctly, the RAF Chefs have, as part of their course for promotion to Sgt, training which includes catering budgets and cost/resource accounting. Considering the small percentage of the daily messing charge the Messes actually receive, I think they do very well to provide the high standards we see at most establishments. I stand by my criticisms of contractorised messing though!

SBG

[Big Cat Handler]

SBG,

In that case, please remove the one contractor from my post above.

BCH

[SRENNAPS]

Having spent many years on Tonka Sqn's and plenty of time with the Yanks and Canadians in various places around the world including permanent locations in their home land, I think that mixed eating establishments work.

At each location they have their own messes (Officers Club, WO &SNCOs Club and erks club) where they can enjoy a drink with each other.

They also have mixed rank clubs where (by choice) they can mix with whom they want.

What I am trying to say is that they all eat well and every type of Chest popking establisment exists for the right moment at the right time.

I think we would do well to follow their idea - Money Allowing

[propwash866]

As I see it, PAYD gives the contractors running messes something that every other company in the Capitalist World has... competition! As people have previously stated, if the customers (offrs, SNCOs or airmen) do not agree with the quality/quantity/selection of food they simply won't eat there anymore and the business/mess will lose money. Some people are doing this already and simply accepting the fact that they still pay their messing. I know of a great number of people here at :mad: who do just that, preferring to cook for themselves rather than put up with what can sometimes be a fairly poor standard of catering. I understand that the catering budget for the messes is tight and as a result the standard of ingredients may be compromised, however what I and several others do object to is poor standards of food preparation. Some examples:

1. Ordered chips at lunchtime last week. When they arrived, they had been reheated (several times!) and as a result were more like honeycombes full of oil than chips.

2. Friend ordered cheese baguette yesterday. Cheese Burger and chips arrives!

3. Vegetable selection last week comprising of drastically overcooked broccolli, lumpy mashed potato and rock hard roasties!

All of the above grumbles are not a result of under-funding, more a result of staff being generally sloppy. I really feel sometimes that the staff couldn't care less as they know full well that we have little choice in where we eat and that even if we do go elsewhere, we'll still be paying for the food that they serve!

Similar thing has happened behind our bar. ESS decided in their wisdom to withdraw the two most popular beers and replace them with 'extra cold' versions of the two remaining beers. If it wasn't for the bar prices in the mess, I doubt as many people would use it. A sad fact of life.

Think that just about sums it up.

[BEagle]

ESS? The people who boast:

ESS operates a revolutionary and innovative service solution for the provision of the Support Services of tomorrow. We have developed our "Best in Class" strategy, which focuses the very best of regional and worldwide resources on providing our clients and customers with the most innovative and cost effective service solutions. With our "Best in Class" partners we drive cost out of the supply chain to increase value, we instigate exciting new initiatives to achieve Operational Excellence, and we introduce systems, designed to maximise capital stewardship. We have developed integrated supplier customer collaborative support systems that have achieved previously unknown levels of savings, and increased value for all stakeholders.

And what does such self-congratulatory bull$hit mean? Cheap and nasty?

[Gainesy]

Ah, The Mission Statement:yuk:

Note that nowhere is mentioned "We Can Cook".

IIP, Delivery, Centre of Excellence, Bollocks etc.

[SteveStephens]

There seems to be some misunderstanding with what Pay As You Dine is about. It is choice, you have the option of taking or leaving it, there is no chips in place of noodles, or some such option. If you don't like it you do not have to have it! PAYD will live or die on the quality of the service, if it is not good enough...............!

BEagle

I do not have any knowledge of the Marines and how they are introducing PAYD but in the RAF there is choice. For instance, at RAF Halton, Peg's (an evening kebab wagon type facility) is being allowed to stay.

[Green Meat]

we drive cost out of the supply chain to increase value

Well, I certainly agree with that statement, what doesn't get eaten today ends up being re-hashed for the rest of the week until some blighter eats it!

SteveStephens, I think we're in an unusual position as it's either put up with the single c :mad: p meal presented or find somewhere else to eat. At least non-veggies have a choice 'in-house', but I'd be interested to know how much of one.

[BigGrecian]

Having visited Henlow at the OM there, PAYD hasn't improved the quality of service or quality of food at all. The staff clearly didn't understand how PAYD worked, and all that happens is that you end up paying for every little extra option you have e.g an extra glass of orange juice at breakfast? - that's going to cost you.
Word on the street is Leuchars PAYD isn't great either. I can't comment on the JR side of things but from our side, its not a good idea.

[Uncle Ginsters]

BEagle,
If that's ESS's Mission Statement then you have to hand it to them - they're bloody good at it.

But nowhere in there does it mention 'delivering quality to the customer'. It's all full of "cost effectiveness this" and "savings and increased value that",

Well done ESS on your job well done. :ok: Now hows about doing the one we require?

Uncle G

[BEagle]

1. The BS came from discovering ESS's website after a few seconds of Googling. Note that their 'satisfaction survey' only applies to the website design...

2. SteveStephens, I have not had any reason to visit Lympstone either. However, the website concerning Dutchy's is pretty clear. Anyway, the local MP has been informed about what's going on!

Back to happier days, hands up all those who remember Mary who used to run the real 'Dragon Room' in the OM at Valley? Many a student's late night appetite was satisfied with a couple of bratties and chips! Or the Steak Bar at RAFC Cranwell College Hall Mess back before Cranwell went comprehensive?

[FJJP]

A few years ago a kebab wagon used to park close to the NAAFI shop at Wyton, within easy reach of the married patch and the singlies accom.

The one day it disappeared to outside the base. That meant a considerable trek for those farthest away on the patch. On asking the question why?, the owner said that the NAAFI club complained [as is their wont] that they had the monopoly on base and the bratty wagon couldn't ply their wares - there was a good enough menu avaiable in their restaurant.

At happy hour I complained to the Staish [the firey one who was later tragically killed in a Canberra crash on base]. He got a menu from the bratty wagon, called the NAAFI restaurant manager to his presence and told him that if he provided the same menu, the bratty wagon stayed off base. The silly man argued [NOT a wise move] and told the Staish that he was within his rights to enforce the ban [an even WORSE move].

Within 24 hrs the bratty wagon was back on base!

RiP Reg...

[Gainesy]

As most service establishments, particularly flying stations, are in the middle of nowhere, the options to eat out are pretty limited for those living in.

[KENNYR]

I have been out of the service for 15 years. Why did the powers to be decide to civilianize the mess services? At Middle Wallop for instance the food and standard of catering was excellent in all aspects but now I hear that the mess is in total chaos. Is it all about the almighty $? Why do the mess members put up with this b**lsh*t? Do the members have no say in the standard of service provided by these civilian cretins?

[ralphmalph]

KENNYR,
The rumours you have heard about the mess's at Wallop are true!. Never before would you have seen such crap food presented and dumped on a table in your life.
My main gripe is that as and ex-ranker I have no problems with accepting a no-frills service...however.....as I pay extra messing and my mess bill I would appreciate at least a little care and thought into my food.
A recent example was that there had been a fixed menu,day in day out on a two week cycle for the past 10 months!!!.

I can hear people saying that the livers in should get off their arses and sort it......granted.....however if we had even a handfull of military personnel involved things would be dramatically different.

Have stayed in numerous RAF and Army messes with military staff and found then generally excellent

[Spotting Bad Guys]

No, we don't like it....but as with most contracts of this type these days, once the "trial" has started the project gathers its own momentum and we no longer have any say!

Service catering is at serious risk of going down the tubes the same way housing did when DHE took over. Remember Families Officers? Remember being able to get a works service done the same week as you submitted the request? Remember actually having someone you with whom you could sort out a problem face-to-face rather than some anonymous and endless queue to a call-centre?

Out with the new, back with the old, I say.....

SBG::*

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Mail on Sunday 8 Aug 04

Jason Lewis - Whitehall Correspondent

Dash it all! Now they're turning the officers' mess into a canteen...


One unnamed Squadron Leader said 'For a hundred quid a month......etc
Lifted directly from mgba9pgf on page 1 of this thread


One officer quoted on anunofficial services website says 'Call me old fashioned...etc
Lifted directly from iccarus on page 2 of this thread



Thats enough cutting and pasting. Another half dozen quotes are taken directly from this thread.


I wonder if they'll quote me:-

The best thing about being in H M Forces...is waking up in your own mess.

[JessTheDog]

What about weekend catering, for those livers-in unlucky enough to escape every weekend? At some messes, both the quality and range plummets.

[polyglory]

Some things never change then:sad:

[Skeleton]

My two penny’s worth having just come out of the present system.

Separate messes a must. For a start everyone needs a break from there boss, also in my experience a lot of decisions / discussions / advice go on over the lunch / dining table. I certainly learnt a lot listening to my peers in the SNCO's mess.

My last mess, on a frontline station, (clue goes up vertically just don’t hang things off the wings) shut at the weekends (including the bar) and it was back to the JRM (after booking a meal) the troops didn’t want us there as much as we didn’t want to be there. There was no animosity but it was there dining room and I don't walk into your dining room uninvited.

I don't agree with PAYD, and as a SNCO that ran a section full of youngsters I have thought about it and discussed it at length with the troops. Most of them won't pay out of principle and that’s because they hate the mess as it is, wave a get out clause in front of them and they will gladly accept it. They will live on fast food out the Spar or p:mad: it up against the wall. Ok that’s there choice but there supposed to be in the military and part of that regime, like it or not, involves a certain level of fitness. Letting the troops eat fast food all week is not going to help that cause.

I have yet to eat in a mess where the contractors have provided a better service, period. There in it to make money not to feed people and I fail to see how contracting catering services out will help any military organization.

It may make me sound like an old f*** but people who bang on about freedom of choice in the military worry me, are they the same people who insisted on single rooms for even the most lowly of ranks? I know of least three suicides that happened during my time that partly could be put down to sending someone to a single room on a Friday night in the middle of winter, miles from home, with no entertainment and nothing to do for miles around. Im convinced that making troops in there first two years of service share a room would solve a lot of the problems the military suffer with its younger brethren.

PAYD may not lead to suicides but it’s yet another nail in the coffin of the military caring about its people.

Rant over, sorry it’s a bit long winded.

[SteveStephens]

Skeleton

You will see from my previous posts that much of what you say has already been discussed. I am sure, when you were an airman, you moaned at having to pay for food you did not eat. This has been going on for many a year and one of the reasons that PAYD is being trialled.

It is true that some people will not eat in the new facilities, for your information nearly 50% of RAF personnel do not eat in the messes now. However, PAYD is about choice, the Contractor has to provide services that are attractive. It is not a MAC, the contractor does not get any money if their are no customers!

As a final point, PAYD has been running at a number of sites for over a year. No one, to my knowledge, has starved or gone without meals. In my experience, if you treat people like adults, then they act like them.

Steve

[Skeleton]

Morning Steve,

I had read the thread with interest before I posted. Just giving my take on the situation.

I was aware a large proportion of airmen don't eat in the mess as it is, but in my experience the more junior members, by that I mean people in there first two years of service, said yes I want PAYD because it means I won't have to use the mess at all. I would hope that if you treat people like adults they would act like them but I would need convincing :suspect:

I cant comment on what services the contractors now provide, I can only comment on what I saw in the past and have to say IMHO it was not of an acceptable standard.

I would hope no one would starve, as has been said even the most unsubtle of line manager should notice if Porky Bloogs turns into a Racing Whippet. :)

I dont agree with PAYD, but understand that the majority probably do, I would certainly be failing in my job as a line manager if it was implemented and I didn't take an interest in wether the troops were actually eating properly. I remain to be convinced that some (not all) actually will be.

[BigGrecian]

I dont agree with PAYD, but understand that the
majority probably do

I have yet to meet one person who has a good thing to say about PAYD.
Its just a shame that no one who has anything to do with implementing PAYD here's the stories. On a visit to CAM at Henlow, our course (we weren't the first and won't be the last) complained about PAYD, to which we were put in out box by the Sqn Ldr who obviously was in favour, despite never having lived in the mess and sampled it. Our method of complaining meant that no on heard about it. A comment to the mess reception that the system was poorly ran, and that the staff knew little about how the system affected normal livers in, was taken, but I doubt anything was done about it. There isn't even a comments/forum element to the PAYD (http://www.mod.uk/issues/payd/index.html) website(Not the folder issues in the hyperlink - it is one which is being ignored) Unfortunately, PAYD is just another degregation of Service life.

Point me in the direction of an officer who has benefited from PAYD. :*

[November4]

Skeleton said

I would certainly be failing in my job as a line manager if it was implemented and I didn't take an interest in wether the troops were actually eating properly

Do you ask the single youngsters who live out in privatley rented accom what they had to eat and if they are eating properly?

Likewise do you check that each person living in the block has eaten breakfast? After all isn't it still a chargeable offence not to eat breakfast?



edited to remove a freudian slip :confused:

[Skeleton]

Unfortunately, PAYD is just another degregation of Service life

Got to agree, for various reasons it will be.


Likewise do you check that each person living in the bloke has eaten breakfast? After all isn't it still a chargeable offence not to eat breakfast?

No I had enough trouble starting myself up in the mornings :)

That rule was taken out ages ago I believe.

[SteveStephens]

Just like to pose another situation. What do we do for the young airman who marries a divorced women with 5 children.

Answer: provide a quarter, nothing else.

I know the situation is hyperthetical but we don't give a flying fig about the young married airman/airwoman. It smacks of double standards.

[Skeleton]

Its a good point Steve and it does smack of double standards.

I never agreed with the no alcohol rule in blocks either, no one inspected my quarter for alcohol when I first married.

Would have loved to have seen the Mrs face if the SWO and his gang came in after tea and demanded a bull-night on the lounge :O

[The Ferret]

If you are in the "food chain" as a Mess Member and have any choice in whether to move to PAYD then say no! The company may not offer more expensive bar prices initially, they will creep up over the coming months! The choice of food at the counter will start off looking like a good selection until the mess members decide that eating is better and cheaper elsewhere, and then the food choice and standard will decline! Any priveliges that you think you had as a mess member, like getting the mess to cater a private function for you at a "brilliant" price and a bottle of scotch will go out of the window - expect to pay high street prices if you can afford to use the Mess's Catering Company!

The whole affair is yet another degradation of the priveliges and standards that we used to enjoy living in an Officers' Mess or a Wardroom.

Another one of the reasons that I have chosen to PVR from the RN after 27 years!

[polyglory]

The rot started in the eighties, it has gone beyond the point of no return it appears.

Objective has been achieved, glad I am no longer in the Service:sad:

[dave barrett]

As A brand new member of your site, and certainly not a 'flyer'... 30 years in the RM taught me to keep as far away from you guys as possible. I beg your indulgence! All of my adult life I have admired the RAF for the way the 'other ranks' have controlled their service, after all, where else could a mere aircraftsman, or corporal, get out of bed, fuel and ammo a war machine... pat his officer on the head, watch him go off to war, and then stroll back to the canteen and enjoy a leisurely breakfast, then after his second cup of char wonder if he had anything to do in the later forenoon... Now that has got to be the only way to fight a war.
Sadly the politicians seem to have cottoned on to your methods, they seem to be introducing a new system... PAYD, or as I hear you guys calling it..
Save as You Starve.

I have read all the previous threads, and can stick my tongue as far in my cheek as any of you, but this new system will have very serious results:

I know you boys in light blue can look after yourselves, but this system seems set to take over every military establishment in UK. My concern is how it will affect my 'Alma Mater', 'The Commando Training Centre Royal Marines'. That establishment has, for the last 40 years been very well served by a family (father and son, father having served through to pension)with an after hours access to calories (not to mention advice). It's called "Dutchy's".... Unfortunately they are not part of the conglomerate that is destined to take over the feeding of our forces..

But... If what I read on this website is replicated at CTC, how will a young marine recruit, who probably doesn't stop working until.. Oh Crack Sparrow.. get enough calories to be able to 'turn to' fully booted and spurred the next morning (which as I recall, comes all too soon.)

I don't think todays politicians even care, let alone know...

I would ask all readers of this website to take a look at www.savedutchy.co.uk

After all, whose country is it!!!

Regards,

Dave Barrett
[email protected]

[Roland Pulfrew]

Understand that the SAYS trial at a secret Bucks base has been delayed yet further, now some 18 months late (but stand to be corrected). The 4 major food retailing companies are starting to realise that there is no profit in this. To make a profit you have to put prices up, or reduce quantity and/ or quality. If you do either of these people will vote with their feet and buy elsewhere be it local pub, Tesco/Spar/NAAFI or local kebab van. Add to that the cost of updating the infrastructure and it will take a significant time before any profit is returned.

The solution must be to stop the subsidies from food charges that go to other areas and continue with the system we have. Unfortunate for the areas where food is currently "free" but does mean that all should get what they pay for. It still wont stop the moaning of a "I pay for 21 meals but only ever eat 3" - that's the system like it, eat more or move out.

Incidentally I understand the companies bidding now want to take over the running of all Mess bars (if not all bars) on station - some profit to be had here. The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit. Now watch bar prices (and the cost of all social functions) go up if YOU allow this to happen.

[BEagle]

" The scam, sorry, scheme would see all profit from all bars being split 4 ways: 1 to the O's Mess, 1 to the contractor, 1 to the Sgt's Mess, 1 to the contractor and 1 to the Airmen's Mess regardless of which one made the most/least profit." ;)

Undoubtedly true! "Let's split it 4 ways. Right, that bit is mine, now then 1/4 each of what's left to the OM, SNCOs & WO's mess, the Airmen's Mess...oh, and me of course!"

When I existed (I say 'existed' - 'twas hardly 'living'!) in the OM for the first few months when I arrived at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome many years ago, the only thing which grated was being charged 3 days' extra messing if I ate breakfast one day, lunch the next and dinner on the third but only for 1 day if I ate all 3 meals on the same day. Never did quite understand that.

My final dealings with the OM was being charged some token amount for breakfast after my final Dining-Out. Had to b£oody well pay for that as well........ :mad: :mad:

[Shackman]

Lucky you BEags.

On one dining out (carefully organised for after I had left the station - somewhere to the North East of East Anglia) I was presented with the bill for Breakfast, the previous night's Dinner AND the overnight accomodation - at non entitled rates of course!
For the one when I finally left HM employ at least all I got was the bill for the dinner 'cos "It was a DHFS dinner and not an RAF one!" But then again I was lucky enough to listen to a lordship give us his 45min speech he was presumably giving to the Defence Committee later on the state of the training system - sorry, I mean I listened to the first 5 mins then joined the rest of the comatose members of the mess. Equally :mad:

[fredtheshed]

PAYD killed the mess at Culdrose.
Livers in dipped out - they now all cook in their room and the ironing rooms. they now stink as nobody will wash up. corridors ming too.
Food standard is APPALLING. the so called core-menu (what livers in are entitled to at standard food charge) is cr*p. tasty options are presented at about 3 times the cost of the core menu.
food is now cooked in small batches so there are no healthy vegtables cooked, just small fried things.
it is really noticeable in the social aspect, people no longer sit down and have en evening meal, in the old system you would take smaller portions and 'do the card', whilst troughing a bottle of seahawk plonk. gone now.
If you live in the mess and eat your meals in the mess (missing breakfast and weekend meals) - you will certainly pay more under PAYD. The ARAMARK staff tell me that the prices are still cheap when compared to a pub meal - true. Can you imagine the cost of having to eat every meal in a pub?
PAYD marks the beginning if the end of the services obligation to their men. You could always count on being clothed, housed and fed no matter what.

During my last visit to Culdrose i was staying as duty, after checking the raft of rules over breakfast to see what i could have i selected some tea, 2 pieces of toast and a bowl of cornflakes (choice was this or a cooked break - 5 pieces, but not both). after finishing i went to give my chit to the lady, she totalled it on the computer and said i owed 14 p
- What for? I asked
marmalade sir.
-Why?
marmalade is not a core menu option sir.

Nuff said

[TheBeeKeeper]

Does anyone know if the '3 into 1' system is officially approved yet? Can't help but think that if the contractor is taking all of the profits from the bar and gaming machines etc that mess functions will become so much more expensive, as there wont be cash in the ents fund.

And who is going to set the GPP of the bar? Who is to say prices wont double?

The end is nigh folks.... just you wait!

BK

[mbga9pgf]

Just out of interest, are these "Trials" being forced upon the livers-in, or do they require a vote to be passed at an EGM etc? Cant imagine many Officers messes at least allowing some Civvie company to pilfer our bar takings and rauciously increase prices? And if we do go to these catering systems, I take it an INDEPENDENT body will be responsible for dealing with complaints, monitoring standards and setting price caps that we will all be aware of before this major project gets fully underway and legislated?

Because if not, I sure as hell wont be voting for PAYD in my mess! And I garantee I will be voting with my feet if they try and charge for individual plastic portions of sauce and spreads!

MBGA

[TheBeeKeeper]

MGBA,

Everything that is happening through PAYD is being mandated. As for the setting of prices.... the only reason the core menu stays low is that it has to fall in line with Standard Food Charges for other stations.... A La Carte menu prices are not hugely expensive in the grand scheme of things, but they are usually double the price of the core menu.

As sadly we don't have CORE menu Theakstons Best.... I can only presume that they will charge whatever they think they can get away with!

BK

[mbga9pgf]

But will there be an independent monitoring organization or will we have to put up with Company "how do you rate our service?" smiley faces a la Little Chef?

And will these changes be forced upon us or will we be able to take a vote having discussed the pros and cons within the mess environment? Serious questions I am genuinely interested in.

Thanks,

MBGA

[TheBeeKeeper]

Serious answers...... we already have smiley faces (ok well, 1 to 5 scores) on the Customer Satisfaction Questionnaires

Was told yesterday that there will be no vote. It is all being discussed at Air Force Board level and changes will be compulsory!

BK

[allan907]

See my previous post on page 2.

PAYD was driven by popular demand. You were warned at the time that it would all end in tears. And now look at the mess (deliberate pun) you have gotten into!

The initial push for PAYD was via the AMPLT reports (and equivalents in other Services). the only way you could change things now is to SHOUT LOUD AND LONG. It would be a brave CAS who would totally ignore the clamour (mind you, I'm not sure that there are any brave very senior officers around nowadays - the good ones left when I did!).

Be careful to wish for things - your wish might be granted!

[SteveStephens]

To the best of my knowledge, Pay As You Dine has not yet been approved by the DMB although the 3 into 1 has. This means that all the establishments that are coming up for relet (in a MAC sense) have to combine catering, retail and leisure. If, and it is a big if, the trial sites fail then the DMB will have to look for another option.

This is a tri-service intiative!

[TheBeeKeeper]

SteveStephens,

Who is measuring the success? Do you know of any date that has been set to decide as such?

BK

[BEagle]

Is there anything preventing you from using the Dining Room when you're not eating the wunnerful PAYD $hite?

Arrange with a bunch of chums to have a good local Chinese take-away prepare the odd substantial banquet, then use several mess plates, bowls, cutlery for your meal. Take your time, then leave the lot for the mess to clear up.

Arrange a BYOM barbecue for your chums, leave the resulting debris for the mess to deal with.

In other words, use their facilities but boycott their food.

:E

[SteveStephens]

TheBeeKeeper

Good question, one I do not know the answer to. I presume customer satisfaction surveys, profitable business etc. Maybe the PAYD Team at DLO Andover could answer this one.

BEagle

I think that all the assetts transfer to the Contractor, so this might not be possible!

[FJJP]

What's the equivalent to corkage? - Plateage? No doubt they'd hire the plates, containers, KFSs at a premium rate, or use of the dining facilities, chairs, tables, etc. And don't ask for a jug of water for the Indian! They'd not doubt also charge a fee for clearing up - now, how many stewards at £25 per hour?...

[mbga9pgf]

Or how about the mess members create a fine food society, inviting the old staff to come back and cook. May be increased price, but at least we can enjoy the traditions of our mess knowing we are not filling the pockets of some mega contract caterer. Or how about Social beer calls on squadrons every night instead of inflated bar prices? Bar would be empty however I dare say the Station Commander may take a dim view of PAYD not functioning as advertised due to mess members revolting.

As long as the contrators self-regulate this I will never agree to it; there is too much scope for them to do the absolute minimum required in the contact and furthermore ignore mess member discontent. Seeing as this is Tri-service, the Officers and Sgts messes should request an independent, service led auditing team to determine whether the contractor is providing the required level of service, and us the best value for money, not letting the contractor determine it for themselves. \f they offer anything less, they loose the contract. As a mess member, I dispare at the thought of this lunacy being forced through without a mess vote; once this one is in, I fear the expenditure required to reverse it will mean that any complains will be put down by saying "well, we dont have enough money to put it back as it was"

[Barking]

If you really think PAYD is working and popular there are a few horses that could use your blinkers on a Saturday!

Having visited Henlow for a Av-Med course and stayed in the Sgt's mess I have to say it was the poorest food show I have seen in 23 years as a mess member.

The Breakfast experience started with the 'cry' of "Only 6 Items for duty meals"

Confused I looked at the top of the warming cabinet and found a scrappy little sheet with breakfast items listed (which included Juice), and was instructed to tick my preferred 6 items.

Having completed this simple task I returned to the Dinning room to await my breakfast 'feast'. When it arrived I was staggered, 2 streaks of bacon sat next to an anorexic sausage coddled by a single scrambled egg, having chosen Juice as an option the remaining item was listed as 'Tomatoes', the single tinned tomato devoid of juice hardly met my expectation.

Lunch was an omelette and Salad (3 lettuce leaves 3/8s of a tomato and 3 slices of cucumber). Both meals fitted inside the 1” border of a standard RAF plate. I have never left a Sgt's mess hungry after meals. Thank you Henlow and PAYD for a new experience!

Having spoken to the ‘Living-in’ staff up to and including WO’s they generally check out the mess meals, then head for town to buy their own form the local Take-Away outlets, a fine spread of which are available just outside the Station.

As I returned home to Waddington I had a sinking feeling that we have traded the dining facilities of one of the most exclusive clubs in the world for a 3rd rate Transport Café.

I will take some convincing this is a genuine move to improve the wellbeing of any group other than the Treasury. I hope I have retired before we are forced to adopt this across the Force.

[buoy15]

I think they have PAYD in the Palace of Westminster - not sure of the pricing regime - understand you can get a slap-up 4 course with champers for about 15p - so if it's good for them, must be good for the lads!!

Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!:D

[BigGrecian]

I notice the RAF News has ran a feature on PAYD.
"I spend a lot more"
"Overall OM life is a lot worse than before PAYD"
Looks like its being well accepted than. It appears that life in a OM is going to be like living in a cafeteria rather than living in a homely environment. I just hope that someone who is responsible for PAYD realises that we don't want PAYD before OM life is destroyed.

All my friends who have been posted to Henlow have since moved out, due to the fact that mess life has been degraded due to PAYD.

I hope I never have to live in a PAYD mess.

[Dugster_at_TPW]

All my friends who have been posted to Henlow have since moved out, due to the fact that mess life has been degraded due to PAYD

At least the Officers and SNCO's of RAF Henlow still have their respective messes!

As a Junior Rank at Henlow I no longer have my own eating area, the Junior Ranks now have to mix with / queue behind Contractors , MOD civilians, Wives and kids!! :(

So much for preserving the 'three mess ethos'

Cheers Eurest! :{ :yuk:

[TheBeeKeeper]

Rumour has it that the Invitation To Tender for the PAYD contract was pulled yesterday morning, and that it was due to be signed either yesterday or today!

Any more info anyone?

TBK

[lippiatt]

My informant says that a 'review' is currently on going within HQSTC as to the viability of PAYD after the experiences of the trial sites.

Turns out that the trials were for the benefit of the potential contractors and NOT the customers. Contractors are not convinced that they can turn in a decent profit unless they can completely monopolise ALL retail outlets on a unit.

Henlow's experience has been a disaster & Leuchars has left the JNCOSs miffed at the loss of their mess to the SNCOs & Offrs amongst other things.

Halton was supposed to be amongst the first to introduce PAYD fulltime but is now going to be a trial as well.

Any counter rumours to the above?

[polyglory]

Just look at Compass catering, experinced them in the Moors,in the eighties, and elsewhere now look were they are now.

Profit reigns, and the users suffers.

What has changed, nowt, just the urge to make a profit.

In the end I resorted as a Singlie, buying my tucker off base, in essence, paying for it twice.

Nothing seems to have changed, except a downward spiral

[BEagle]

Found this interesting article about Compass:

Compass catering gone cold
May 3 2005

Daily Post


CATERING group Compass is plotting a business sell-off and share buybacks to placate angry investors.

The Chertsey-based firm is working with advisers on plans to sell assets and return the cash to shareholders, a report said.

It also intends to reduce investment in underperforming businesses or dispose of them.

The company hopes the moves will give chief executive Mike Bailey valuable breathing space to reverse its falling profits.

Some institutional shareholders reportedly have called for Mr Bailey's resignation after the company issued two profit warnings in seven months.

In March, the firm said an increase in lower margin, less risky work would reduce its profits by £15m, spurring brokers to lower their profits expectations for 2005 --in one case by £24m to £620m.

A spokesman for Compass said: "We constantly review the business to ensure shareholder value.

"No decisions have been made and there will be an update on progress at the company's interim results in May.

"We are listening to shareholders and we are fully focused on improving free cash flow and return on capital employed."

Compass, which supplies catering services to schools, has come under fire amid controversy about the quality of school dinners.

One report last month said some English schools were reviewing their contracts with the group's Scolarest division.

The company has annual revenues of £12bn and employs 400,000 people in 90 countries.

There is a difference between PAYD and privatisation. The first ensures that the fatties aren't subsidised by those who eat less, the latter is bean-counting nonsense.

[aes69]

PAYD at Henlow, as previously mentioned, has been a disaster.
Poor quality, arguable quantity and appalling staff attitudes. Couple that with the mess being used by contractors, civil servants, families, SNCO's & officers who just want a sandwich and the courses that come through the unit, well, it doesn't make for enjoyable meal times.

But the biggest thing which I know has been touched on, is bar prices. ESS have been given the monopoly on bar prices and even opening times. Our bar, which has the largest attendance not only on the unit, but for our trade, in the RAF, has been restricted to 3 open nights a week. Proposed functions being drastically reduced so not to tread on ESS' toes (which has to be said only gets used once a week because no other bar is open)

I have heard the pro's & cons for PAYD and whilst the principles are favourable, the game plan needs to have a major shake up.

Please, don't be so quick to jump on the PAYD bandwagon, at least try and sample a unit with what it is at the moment, a poor substitute for armed forces messing.

[Ivan Rogov]

At least the kind of people forcing throug PAYD dont influence other contracts and policies.

"Mmmmm we hear what your saying" = We have already made up our minds!

(I'm sure I'll chear up when the sun comes out)

[DSAT Man]

Would you believe that, at RAF Halton, Compass have bought off Peg's Tea Bar so that there would be no competition? Anyone not wishing to partake of the Compass offerings will now be forced to take a walk down to the Van of Death outside the SIF Shop!

I just hope that the Med Centre stock up on Immodium.:yuk:

[BEagle]

What a load of tosh this contractorisation is proving to be! It seems that MoD beancounters still know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

For another example of PAYD lunacy, see what's happening at Lympstone. Visit http://www.savedutchy.co.uk/ and sign the petition!

[mbga9pgf]

Any news about whether contracts are due to go ahead?

As a matter of note, some disgusting PAYD propaganda has been placed in our mess... was tempted to burn it quietly or throw it in the bin...

The only way the contractors will ever get to make a profit will be via the mess bar... and civvie bar prices. Save our messes!

[BigGrecian]

I think a poll is needed here.

As a serious comment all the comments I have ever seen about PAYD indicate people are happier but word on the street always suggests that Mess life is degrading.
As said before:

Save our Messes!

[mbga9pgf]

Chutley, hate to say it but those were the rules you joined to. I dont belive an institution should be abandoned to make our lives easier. And I am not 100%, but I believe the armed forces select comittee are discussing (quite a while now) changes in to eligibility for FMQ for people with partners. Dont knwo when, but it has been mentioned

[SteveStephens]

I understand PTC has suspended the ITT (Invitation To Tender) for PAYD. Although I do not know what STC are doing. I also understand, that on the same day as PTC suspended the ITT the 'Lords and Masters' signed off agreement that PAYD should proceed in the MoD. Interesting times!

[Widger]

I have got to say, that if PAYD ran the way NATS run their contract with the caterers at West Drayton and Swanwick, there would be no arguments!

[mbga9pgf]

What? you mean they massively ramped up bar prices for profits and charged you for individual portions of bread and butter. No thanks. I like my mess the way it is thank you. Why isit that F**king blunties have to come along and play with things that arent broken? Were they born with breaking stuff as thier life mission. IF IT AINT BROKE LEAVE WELL ALONE!!!!

[ExRAFAC]

I quite like the sound of the PAYD thingy. Despite a shrinking force, I've yet to experience it. Probably do the world of good to my waistline! A thought.....How about PAYF (Pay As You Fly), we could sell all the ac to some enterprising organisation and ONLY pay for the ac when we fly them. We could get rid of the smelly bits of the RAF like the plumbers and sumpies etc that way. We could extend that to PAYP (Pay As You Pole) and get rid of all the aircrew chaps as well. Next PAYS (Pay As You Scribble) and get rid of the losers in Admin, then PAYFEA (Pay As You F**k EverybodyAbout) and get rid of the Air W*n*e*s who dream up all this ****e!

[Hummingfrog]

RAFAC

PAYF is already here and used on the UAS and AEF - nice shiny white Tutors with G-Reg. Though I suppose with the EU they may one day be D-Reg:eek:

HF

[fightingchickenplumb]

As someone who works on a PAYD camp, i think its a 50/50 thing on its plus side you pay for what you eat , the times you can eat are better to although they could be doing with making the times the core mess is open to a little later, it was origionally muted to us up here the mess was going to be 24 hr job , on the down side if you work on a sqn and eat in a annex to the mess little has changed in terms of food quality and choice you just pay more.

so peggys van is a thing of the past? when ESS got the contract here the
the kebab van got the flick and allegedyly ESS wanted to stop the sections on stations t-bars and roll making enterprise!

slightly off topic :

when on a APC in cyprus we got charged food, because if we were on a ordinary camp we wouldnt have the choice where we ate, however i always thought this was unfair given that none of us had a choice to eat off camp or even wanted to be there in the first place.

[cooheed]

Roland wrote - 'The solution must be to stop the subsidies from food charges that go to other areas and continue with the system we have. Unfortunate for the areas where food is currently "free" but does mean that all should get what they pay for. It still wont stop the moaning of a "I pay for 21 meals but only ever eat 3" - that's the system like it, eat more or move out.'

Totally agree. Out of the £3.50 odd standard food charge, messes receive around £1.30 as the Daily Messing Rate. Having talked to a Catering WO, the rest pays for 24 hr rat packs and "free" food for all livers-out whilst in 'field conditions'. At least singlies now get LSSA after they antiquated SEPAL.

[Almost_done]

So peggys van is a thing of the past?

She was still there in April :ok: Had my obligitory egg burger whenever I get back to Halton.

[Pristina]

What? you mean they massively ramped up bar prices for profits and charged you for individual portions of bread and butter. No thanks. I like my mess the way it is thank you. Why isit that F**king blunties have to come along and play with things that arent broken? Were they born with breaking stuff as thier life mission. IF IT AINT BROKE LEAVE WELL ALONE!!!!

mbga
When are you going to wake up and small the coffee? Do you really think a bluntie is behind this? This is imposed from above! Not by some bluntie, but someone who used to fly! or even higher!!! :rolleyes:

[allan907]

Well said Pristina. GD Branch gets to play with aeroplanes and not get involved with secondary duties or any of that stuff which might give them a reasonable grounding in the wider picture. Then, all of sudden, they are at MOD in the obligatory, career building, staff post - and they realise that they know f--- all about how the RAF is really run. Doesn't stop them making stupid decisions though - or quietly acquiescing to lunatic decisions from the airships.

PAYD??? This ex-blunty was shouting to all concerned that it wouldn't work way back in 1987.

[BEagle]

There is a difference between PAYD and contractorisation.

At least there should be.....

[Wyler]

Contractorisation has been around for donkey's years and, in my experience, has been a disaster. HQSTC was the worst. Good food but the staff were all students with a less than acceptable grip on the Queens English. I remember a receptionist, who spoke no English, trying to call a Practice Fire Evacuation on the Mess tannoy once, very amusing but a little worrying if she had to do it for real. That was in the late 90's so things may be better now.
Interestingly, they always brought in RAF Stewards when the wheels were Dining In.

No experience of PAYD but it seems very popular amongst the younger elements. Must admit, the many years I spent as a Liver In I would have jumped at the chance top opt out as Mess food has never that exciting. Also, some of the bloody stupid rules sometimes in force. In the early 80's we had a PMC at Buchan who insisted that all Officers wore jacket and tie for breakfast and beans were banned from the menu as they were not considered an Officers vegetable.

Sadly, I think the days of individual Messes with their traditions and 'extras' are numbered. What makes the pill an even more bitter one to swallow is the fact that we just know the alternative will be cheap, nasty and poorly thought out, with you and me figuring at the bottom of the list of priorities.

I've said it before and I will say it again. We are heading for the UK Defence Force which will eventually be swallowed up by a bigger, even less efficient, EU Defence Force. Ear Rings and pony tails will be the norm with uniform only being worn at your place of work.